But that is true though, he hardly makes any creative pass. He is alright in games we might have lower possession but if required to dominate games he is hardly creative, same goes for Scott hence, the doubt in having both of them if Pogba is staying longterm.Okay. Suit yourself
Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now
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Same. He's a top talent.
This will drag out to the last day of the summer, both sides digging their heels in firmly, and on the last day of the transfer we will finally get him for EUR 150 million.
Have you seen Don Woodie's negotiating in the last few seasons?
The only problem I have with the fee is if it will stop us from getting players in other important positions. A lot of people here seem to think getting Sancho alone will be enough for us to compete next year and I don't agree with that. If we can get a cdm, cb and lb while still getting Sancho I don't care what we pay because he is an incredible player but we still have a lot of weaknesses in the squad and that concerns me.
What are the rules on this? I was wondering the same with Sane @ Bayern.
Dortmund already set the deadline before August 10th, beyond that Sancho will stay for another year.
We don't need a left back and we won't be buying one.
A couple factors...
1. Our league position: making top 4 and CL next season adds 100m in revenue. We aren’t there yet. This is a factor for Woodward.
2. City appeal decision due to come out on July 13. Potentially 5th in table to make the CL.
It is possible that financially, Woodward will wait to see the outcome of our season before making the official bid.
There is no doubt that we have the cash, it’s whether the CL will increase the transfer budget and by how much. Might not affect the Sancho transfer, but would affect other transfers. The more I watch Bailly and the other squad options at CB, we probably need to strengthen there as well... Would still rather have Sancho and make do with Tuanzebe and other crap options at CB tbf. The return of Smalling?
1. Our league position: making top 4 and CL next season adds 100m in revenue. We aren’t there yet. This is a factor for Woodward.
2. City appeal decision due to come out on July 13. Potentially 5th in table to make the CL.
It is possible that financially, Woodward will wait to see the outcome of our season before making the official bid.
There is no doubt that we have the cash, it’s whether the CL will increase the transfer budget and by how much. Might not affect the Sancho transfer, but would affect other transfers. The more I watch Bailly and the other squad options at CB, we probably need to strengthen there as well... Would still rather have Sancho and make do with Tuanzebe and other crap options at CB tbf. The return of Smalling?
Shaw is fine as a starter but he always gets injured. His injury record is terrible and he will almost certainly be injured again next season. We have nobody else who is good enough to play lb atm
Williams is a fine backup.
LB isn't that urgent because Shaw and Williams will do for now, CB and CDM yes but then with CDM if push comes to shove then a tandem of Matic, McTominay and Fred will do. I think the biggest concern with Matic is with regard to managing his workload.
I also think that other factors beyond just performances on the pitch will push Woodward to conclude the deal. Getting Sancho will be such a coup that we will have one of the best attacks in the league and that might convince Pogba to stay and having him wearing the #7 will surely get the commercial department excited with possibilities.
He's very bad defensively and has been exposed in almost every game he's played for us. He's definitely not good enough to be starting for us right now. If we have to rely on him as our back up next season he's going to have to improve significantly on his positioning. Gambling heavily on Shaw being fit or we will drop points due to this position next season.
I actually have been very impressed with Matic since the restart and if he can maintain this form throughout next season I would be ok with having McTominay as our backup. I'm just a bit sceptical about wheter he can maintain this form for a full season. As you mentioned, managing his workload will be important if we don't get anyone else. Not a fan of Fred. He's had some ok performances but overall he's been a pretty terrible signing imo.
I think everybody is overrating Williams massively here. He has struggled a lot defensively whenever he's had to play this season. I'm perfectly happy with Shaw as our starting lb, I don't think he's great but he's solid. I'm just concerned because he's a player with a proven injury-prone record so he's probably the least reliable player in our starting xi in this regard and it's probably the position with the weakest backup in the squad. If Shaw gets injured I think this position will result in us dropping points.
Totally agree with your last points, I'm sure these are relevant factors too.
He's not very bad defensively at all. He struggles tactically and his biggest errors have been around getting offside traps wrong or not covering. This is totally natural for such a young player and will come in time. His actual tackling, interceptions, physicality and passing are all positives.
It's only one Glazer that really gets involved in the transfer decisions and it's the one that is the biggest football fan, Joel IIRC. There doesn't need to be a consensus. Once he's presented with all the info he'll be on board.
Sancho will be holding up a United shirt by the time we play the second leg against LASK. I predict.
None of them are urgent, RW is. If we don't sign Sancho or an alternative, we don't have attacking depth, leading to overuse of players and more injuries. Midfield we have depth. We have Matic/Fred/McTominay to rotate around with different combinations in holding midfield, and the situation is perfectly fine for next season. Anything more and we'll have to sell, which we won't. Left back Shaw has been pretty excellent since Ole has come in, and Williams is a very good young squad player who is always improving. CB we haven't really lacked anything this season in terms of starters or depth, it's just if we want it to get to the next level we should upgrade there and get a more suitable partner to Maguire (but at the same time, have a very good record this year).
This summer just isn't the one to go for CB, CDM or LB. One way or another you'd be giving up too soon on somebody that the club really values. Next summer is a different situation though. Sancho alone right now would be the perfect window as we'd have a quality squad with depth all over, and we'd have a group that can challenge on all fronts. Then you give it the season and see where we lack. Are the fullbacks good enough, or is there truly enough hope for the young fullbacks to make that spot their own? Same with center back. Matic will need replacing eventually with his age, but with managed game time he can be very useful in the squad. Can McTominay make that spot his own? Where will Garner be along with his development? A lot of questions that we have valid reasons to be optimistic, especially with the financial situation with everyone this summer. The right wing position though is one that even if we trust Greenwood to make him the starter, we still have no depth in. Definitely not enough for a full challenge. And we have the perfect player available that ticks all the boxes that we've been going for for years.
Coped with one of the best attacking wingers in the league in Traore the best of any LB has but yeah he's very bad defensively
There are 4 attacking places in a 4-2-3-1. Let's look at our options if we get Sancho:
St: Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
AM: Bruno, Sancho (Pogba)
LW: Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Greenwood
RW: Sancho, Greenwood.
So obvious weakness is RW. You don't want greenwood to play 60 games. Lot of room for rotation with 5 quality players for 4 spots.
St: Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
AM: Bruno, Sancho (Pogba)
LW: Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Greenwood
RW: Sancho, Greenwood.
So obvious weakness is RW. You don't want greenwood to play 60 games. Lot of room for rotation with 5 quality players for 4 spots.
We aren't getting anyone for LB regardless of Sancho.
Both Shaw's injuries for the last couple seasons have not been long term injuries. Also, Williams emerged as a capable player. So much so that we sold Young.
We won’t be getting a LB anytime soon, we said as much in January and since then Shaw’s been playing his best football since we signed him.
In fairness, Young, club captain at the time, (allegedly) forced his way out of the club. We offered him a new deal
Can laugh about it now, but Christ our club sometimes..
I think it's the way United should handle the negotiation. Ultimately if United get UCL and show they now are not desperate for a RW (looking this way) it increases their ability to hold out on price, as there is a clear possibility they could walk away from this deal now.
Let Dortmund make the calculation. I.e. Sancho value drops each window due to contract length, uncertain economic climate etc etc. I think if I were Dortmund I would take 80m EUR this summer with all things considered. I would imagine if United open with 60m EUR and don't budge Dortmund will eventually get back around the table.
What Dortmund are losing (thanks to emergence of Greenwood) is a desperate United. Something the likes of Leicester took full advantage of last year.
I think I agree with most of this and at least understand the thought process of the rest.
A successful window for me is Sancho in and Pogba stays. Anything more than that is a really lovely bonus but I think we’re only 3/4 players away now from a squad without holes in the first XI and good depth options too.
Slightly off on your positions here:
ST: Martial, Ighalo, Rashford*, Greenwood
AM:Bruno, Sancho*, Pogba*
LW: Rashford, Sancho, Martial*, James
RW: Sancho, Greenwood, James*
* Can play there but not ideal
Would you rather have Grealish + Alternative RW, Saint-Maximin for example or blow the entire budget on Sancho? I know what I would pick.
Game time won't be an issue even if both Grealish and Sancho are signed.
Assuming we play 60 games next year and use five attacking positions (ST, LW, RW, AM, attacking CM) that's 300 starting positions over the course of a season. That's easily enough to spread out over Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Grealish and Sancho. Without considering subs you get over 40 starts per season per player if evenly distributed, not accounting for injuries.
Assuming we play 60 games next year and use five attacking positions (ST, LW, RW, AM, attacking CM) that's 300 starting positions over the course of a season. That's easily enough to spread out over Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Grealish and Sancho. Without considering subs you get over 40 starts per season per player if evenly distributed, not accounting for injuries.
A big buy. 100 £ mill Sancho/Gnabry
RW/LW 50 £ mill price : Federico Chiesa
If Sancho gonna stay with Dortmund for another season. I think United could do really good with Chiesa, Greenwood and Sanchez as right and winger option.
With Bruno here. Sanchez will lift his performance too. With Bruno, he has lift every United attacking level. I am sure we will see a better Sanchez than before loan period. Sanchez is 31. He might has 2-3 years left in him.
But ideal. Get Sancho in this summer window. If not. Chiesa is a another really good right winger. Who will give United depth in winger and wide player options.
With Chiesa. United will not be short for CF.
With Sancho and Chiesa.
CF: Martial, Greenwood, Rashford
RW/LW : Sancho, Chiesa
Nr.10: Bruno,Chiesa
United just use 1 CF. Important to buy two new wide players. To move Rashford back as CF option. Because you simply don’t find many better CF who work and run alot like Rashford, beside the football skills. But as top RW. A a really good left winger in Chiesa. You have in Sancho and Chiesa. Better to two wingers, then 1 wide player and a player who can only CF.
1 wide player + 1 wide player = better than 1 RW and new CF. Special when United have Greenwood and only use 1 CF.
Conclusion. Beside Sancho. United shall get another winger, special left winger. Rashford is not a natural left winger. And United have James, Sanchez and Chong. So how thin United are with wide players options.
I think it’s now important for Ole and United to get a right, right winger. Same as Bruno level. To compete for the premier league title. Crucial decision and move.
RW/LW 50 £ mill price : Federico Chiesa
If Sancho gonna stay with Dortmund for another season. I think United could do really good with Chiesa, Greenwood and Sanchez as right and winger option.
With Bruno here. Sanchez will lift his performance too. With Bruno, he has lift every United attacking level. I am sure we will see a better Sanchez than before loan period. Sanchez is 31. He might has 2-3 years left in him.
But ideal. Get Sancho in this summer window. If not. Chiesa is a another really good right winger. Who will give United depth in winger and wide player options.
With Chiesa. United will not be short for CF.
With Sancho and Chiesa.
CF: Martial, Greenwood, Rashford
RW/LW : Sancho, Chiesa
Nr.10: Bruno,Chiesa
United just use 1 CF. Important to buy two new wide players. To move Rashford back as CF option. Because you simply don’t find many better CF who work and run alot like Rashford, beside the football skills. But as top RW. A a really good left winger in Chiesa. You have in Sancho and Chiesa. Better to two wingers, then 1 wide player and a player who can only CF.
1 wide player + 1 wide player = better than 1 RW and new CF. Special when United have Greenwood and only use 1 CF.
Conclusion. Beside Sancho. United shall get another winger, special left winger. Rashford is not a natural left winger. And United have James, Sanchez and Chong. So how thin United are with wide players options.
I think it’s now important for Ole and United to get a right, right winger. Same as Bruno level. To compete for the premier league title. Crucial decision and move.
Sancho yeah?
it wont be an issue at all. With injuries or poor form, there are enough games. We need quality in depth and Sancho is just one of the beat RWs to buy. As Martial as well as Greenwood are flexible they can play in other positions too
And i'll be stiff as a board.
Get Grealish and Sancho and we'll be a huge threat to winning the Premier League next season. If we want to make the next step then this is the summer to do it
I didn't have James or ighalo in there cuz I was looking for first choice. But agree with them as squad options.
I just don’t see us spending so much money on him in the current climate.
The way this pandemic is going, a second and third wave are not far off and who knows how much longer we’ll miss out on revenues going forward. Could get prolonged into next year and if we spend all this money on Sancho we may jeapordize our transfer planning not just for this summer but maybe another window or two. Long term wise that’s a dangerous risk to take.
I think we need to ensure Greenwood keeps progressing and buy a cheaper alternative to Sancho and test him out for a year until Sancho becomes available for a cheaper price.
By that time, Ighalo might be gone, or James may prove he’s just not good enough with little to no improvement, and we will have no issue making space for Sancho.
Currently, the way the starting 11 is looking, I think we need backup for Bruno/Pogba to ensure our creativity level doesn’t drop if either of them gets injured.
We also need a CB as I just don’t see Lindelof/Bailly complimenting Maguire like they need to. And we’re one injury away from not having a choice anyways. The top 6 and Arsenal/Wolves/Sheffield/Everton will only get better next year and it’s important to have a solid CB partnership to ensure we don’t concede silly goals next year.
In my eyes, Greenwood’s emergence has and will be pivotal in making the right decisions budget wise this summer. We need to spend wisely and cautiously specially if Dortmund are being so hell bent on not lowering the price from €120m which is just too much!
The only way I see us getting Sancho is if we literally get rid of all the following players; Lingard/Smalling/Jones/Sanchez.
There’s no way we will only end up buying Sancho so the need to get rid of the aforementioned players will allow us to free up sufficient funds for Sancho while allowing us to sign 1/2 more players.
That would be a good window in my opinion.
Edit: Also forgot to mention we need a proper DM replacement for Matic right away. I think Fred should be considered backup for Pogba and McT is still a year or two away from becoming the finished article in either of the two positions even if Ole is trying to groom him that way.
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In a stubborn-off, I don't expect us to win. Woody has shown terrible negotiation skills for past 7 years, just last summer, you had us fecking about with Maguire, only to pay the asking price of £80m in one go at end. Same with Bruno, Sporting coaxed €10-15m more out of us due to our desperation and window closing in 2 days.
With Watzke, he is someone who'll stick to his guns. So, we have a month to get this deal done. If we try to play the waiting game and wait for them to sell cheap late in the window, they'll tell us to feck off.
With Watzke, he is someone who'll stick to his guns. So, we have a month to get this deal done. If we try to play the waiting game and wait for them to sell cheap late in the window, they'll tell us to feck off.
We were always going to pay the price for Bruno but we wanted to make it addons/bonuses rather than upfront payments. That's what we achieved there. Same for Wan-Bissaka in that Palace wanted removal of the Zaha transfer clause but we held firm and got him for the agreed on price.
The only transfer that was ridiculous over the last couple seasons was the Maguire one. We ended up agreeing to Leicester's demands in the end. For the others, both parties compromised in the end.
Still doesn`t answer what to do when one of the current front 3 get injured. We saw how Martial`s injury hampered us and if we didnt sign Bruno/Ighalo Rashford`s injury would have completely finished us off. Be it Sancho or someone else an attacker HAS to be signed and I think Utd will try and structure a deal with BVB like Barca did for Dembele
What was the Barca/Dembele structure?
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