Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion

[Rocksy]

She’s deleted her Twitter now, maybe punditry ain’t for her. Or she could comment on the women’s game, where fewer people really give a toss. Male pundits and footballers get loads of abuse, why should women get different if they are so keen to get involved in the men’s game?

To be honest, the level she’s played at is below non-league so she‘s quite lucky to get a job as a pundit at a much higher level, without being a great journalist (Kelly Cates, Gabby Logan, Alex Scott). Leeds did nothing wrong and can’t be held responsible for people getting at Karen Carne...

 

[Foxbatt]

From what I have seen there are idiots everywhere. But most were calling her out for her ignorance rather than her gender.

 

[JSArsenal]

She’s deleted her Twitter now, maybe punditry ain’t for her. Or she could comment on the women’s game, where fewer people really give a toss. Male pundits and footballers get loads of abuse, why should women get different if they are so keen to get involved in the men’s game?

To be honest, the level she’s played at is below non-league so she‘s quite lucky to get a job as a pundit at a much higher level, without being a great journalist (Kelly Cates, Gabby Logan, Alex Scott). Leeds did nothing wrong and can’t be held responsible for people getting at Karen Carne...

Apples and oranges. It must be extremely difficult for her and the other female pundits. You know that some of the abuse is sexist in nature. She also has to worry about things that Roy Keane and the male pundits do not. There is a real possibility and fear that a deranged commentator may actually find her location and cause her harm in real life.

You can't just say that she's a pundit, all pundits are subject to abuse ergo it's not a big deal.

Should Leeds have responded? In hindsight no. Should they have come out and called out the over the top abuse once it started? Of course.

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

She’s deleted her Twitter now, maybe punditry ain’t for her. Or she could comment on the women’s game, where fewer people really give a toss. Male pundits and footballers get loads of abuse, why should women get different if they are so keen to get involved in the men’s game?

To be honest, the level she’s played at is below non-league so she‘s quite lucky to get a job as a pundit at a much higher level, without being a great journalist (Kelly Cates, Gabby Logan, Alex Scott). Leeds did nothing wrong and can’t be held responsible for people getting at Karen Carne...

That is childish behaviour of her

 

[macheda14]

That is childish behaviour of her

Deleting her twitter after being hounded is childish behaviour?

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

Deleting her twitter after being hounded is childish behaviour?

You can make private your Twitter account.

 

[macheda14]

You can make private your Twitter account.

It's more your definition of what is and isn't childish seems to be way off the mark here.

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

It's more your definition of what is and isn't childish seems to be way off the mark here.

She could have said "My words about Leeds 2019-2020 season were a bit wrong" in the last couple of days and everything would have been fine but that she is silent is bad behaviour in my opinion.

 

[macheda14]

She could have said "My words about Leeds 2019-2020 season were a bit wrong" in the last couple of days and everything would have been fine but that she is silent is bad behaviour in my opinion.

Her words weren’t that wrong, in the wider context of what she was saying is that Leeds and other Bielsa teams have trailed off at the end of seasons due to fatigue. Covid afforded them an opportunity to refresh. Leeds’ Twitter took her quote out of context.

However you feel like she should apologise for what she said purely to stop people harassing her, when she shouldn’t have to apologise for a pretty reasonable assumption.

 

[Cascarino]

She’s deleted her Twitter now, maybe punditry ain’t for her. Or she could comment on the women’s game, where fewer people really give a toss. Male pundits and footballers get loads of abuse, why should women get different if they are so keen to get involved in the men’s game?

To be honest, the level she’s played at is below non-league so she‘s quite lucky to get a job as a pundit at a much higher level, without being a great journalist (Kelly Cates, Gabby Logan, Alex Scott). Leeds did nothing wrong and can’t be held responsible for people getting at Karen Carne...

She’s on of the most capped English footballers of all time.

She could have said "My words about Leeds 2019-2020 season were a bit wrong" in the last couple of days and everything would have been fine but that she is silent is bad behaviour in my opinion.

Nothing she said was inherently wrong. I’ve already argued in this thread that I disagree with her opinion, but her assessment that Leeds benefitted from the footballing break is a perfectly valid opinion to hold.

 

[Judas]

She could have said "My words about Leeds 2019-2020 season were a bit wrong" in the last couple of days and everything would have been fine but that she is silent is bad behaviour in my opinion.

Bit purposefully naive if you think her saying she was "wrong" would have silenced people who want to abuse people online, the types who do that weren't going to stop just like that.

 

[littleman]

Bit purposefully naive if you think her saying she was "wrong" would have silenced people who want to abuse people online, the types who do that weren't going to stop just like that.

It's basic decency -- you make a mistake, you own up to it.

The mob will be the mob, but you can be a real person.

 

[RashyForPM]

She’s on of the most capped English footballers of all time.

I swear I’m not being sexist, but I think it’s been established by now that women’s football is about Conference level. Did Newcastle Jets U15 not beat the Australian women’s team 7-2? Feel free to correct me as I categorically disagree with her because as I much as I hate Leeds, they won their last 5 prior to lockdown and lost their first game back, but I have no intention of being sexist/demeaning the women’s game.

 

[westmeath]

Leeds are clearly out of order here and the mob element on our forum supporting their approach is equally so. She expressed an opinion and she was entitled to do so. I think it has some merit. Once the mob started the sexist abuse, Leeds had to delete it. No excuses.

 

[Cascarino]

I swear I’m not being sexist, but I think it’s been established by now that women’s football is about Conference level. Did Newcastle Jets U15 not beat the Australian women’s team 7-2? Feel free to correct me as I categorically disagree with her because as I much as I hate Leeds, they won their last 5 prior to lockdown and lost their first game back, but I have no intention of being sexist.

The Newcastle Jets game comes up time and time again, and it’s a really stupid point imo. A heavyweight would beat Mayweather, does that mean his achievements are worth nothing?

The season prior to promotion, Leeds dropped a lot of points in the last leg of the season that cost them promotion. The season they got promoted, the stoppage of football due to Covid gave them a chance to not run out of energy in the last leg. That was her point, It had nothing to do with their form preceding the break, it’s just completely been misconstrue. I disagree with that assessment, in my view it wasn’t burnout that cost them promotion in the first season but awful finishing and pressure getting to them. But her view is a perfectly valid one to hold and certainly not one that deserves abuse, or having to apologise for.

 

[Judas]

Leeds are clearly out of order here and the mob element on our forum supporting their approach is equally so. She expressed an opinion and she was entitled to do so. I think it has some merit. Once the mob started the sexist abuse, Leeds had to delete it. No excuses.

Exactly. Since when does Michael Owen get forced to apologise for all the utterly terrible nonsense he comes out with? It's all a bit strange. After all the fuss I expected her to have said some much worse things.

 

[RashyForPM]

The Newcastle Jets game comes up time and time again, and it’s a really stupid point imo. A heavyweight would beat Mayweather, does that mean his achievements are worth nothing?

The season prior to promotion, Leeds dropped a lot of points in the last leg of the season that cost them promotion. The season they got promoted, the stoppage of football due to Covid gave them a chance to not run out of energy in the last leg. That was her point, It had nothing to do with their form preceding the break, it’s just completely been misconstrue. I disagree with that assessment, in my view it wasn’t burnout that cost them promotion in the first season but awful finishing and pressure getting to them. But her view is a perfectly valid one to hold and certainly not one that deserves abuse, or having to apologise for.

Alright, but at the same time, every single other Championship team got a break too, which also halted Leeds’ momentum. Put it this way, I strongly doubt the Cardiff side who beat Leeds 2-0 straight after lockdown even gets anywhere near that Leeds team should the game have been played when Leeds had just won 5 on the bounce.

Also, the Newcastle Jets U15 point isn’t stupid imo (well, that’s why I used it). A heavyweight can beat Mayweather, but these are physically undeveloped boys absolutely battering a decent women’s team, who are the best female players in Australia. Anyway, I’m not going to derail this thread further about that game as it’s completely unrelated. No matter what level they play at, they can talk about men’s football and give good points about it. Of course they can. For example, Kelly Cates is an excellent presenter/pundit.

Agree that she shouldn’t be taking abuse (obviously) and being asked to apologise btw. Everyone can hold ridiculous/very unpopular opinions. I know I’ve held a fair few. I was still advocating Dan James’ and Lingard’s selection up to the end of last season!

Oh and on a side note, Leeds shouldn’t be taking the piss out of pundits on their official account. They did likewise to Agbonlahor after they hammered Villa. But hey, Leeds scum and all that.

 

[Cascarino]

Alright, but at the same time, every single other Championship team got a break too, which also halted Leeds’ momentum. Put it this way, I strongly doubt the Cardiff side who beat Leeds 2-0 straight after lockdown even gets anywhere near that Leeds team should the game have been played when Leeds had just won 5 on the bounce.

I largely agree, I argued earlier in the thread that I don’t think the break particularly benefitted Leeds, I think they would have gone up no matter what. Cardiff came back to draw from 3-0 down earlier in the season (and a man down towards the end) when Leeds were on a 7 game win streak, they’re not a fun team to play. You’re probably right though in that Leeds would have definitely fathered to not have the break if possible.

Also, the Newcastle Jets U15 point isn’t stupid imo (well, that’s why I used it). A heavyweight can beat Mayweather, but these are physically undeveloped boys absolutely battering a decent women’s team, who are the best female players in Australia. Anyway, I’m not going to derail this thread further about that game as it’s completely unrelated. No matter what level they play at, they can talk about men’s football and give good points about it. Of course they can. For example, Kelly Cates is an excellent presenter/pundit.

Even at that age, they’re significantly faster and stronger on average, and on top of that it was only a friendly. I don’t think it really tells us anything. You’re right though that we’re getting sidetracked, I fully agree with the point, and find that quite often I prefer the input of (some) journos over more established stars because they can convey their opinions in an insightful manner

Agree that she shouldn’t be taking abuse (obviously) and being asked to apologise btw. Everyone can hold ridiculous/very unpopular opinions. I know I’ve held a fair few. I was still advocating Dan James’ and Lingard’s selection up to the end of last season!

Oh and on a side note, Leeds shouldn’t be taking the piss out of pundits on their official account. They did likewise to Agbonlahor after they hammered Villa. But hey, Leeds scum and all that.

I thought Jazz Richards would be a good perm player someone else pointed out in this thread that the Leeds twitter handle often makes fun of the pundits, in an ideal world the gender wouldn’t matter, it’s just a shame that with the likes of Carney there’s a significant proportion of people on twitter who can only see the fact she’s a woman, whereas the likes of Souness and Owen can have bad takes without it being such an issue.

 

[RashyForPM]

I largely agree, I argued earlier in the thread that I don’t think the break particularly benefitted Leeds, I think they would have gone up no matter what. Cardiff came back to draw from 3-0 down earlier in the season (and a man down towards the end) when Leeds were on a 7 game win streak, they’re not a fun team to play. You’re probably right though in that Leeds would have definitely fathered to not have the break if possible.

Even at that age, they’re significantly faster and stronger on average, and on top of that it was only a friendly. I don’t think it really tells us anything. You’re right though that we’re getting sidetracked, I fully agree with the point, and find that quite often I prefer the input of (some) journos over more established stars because they can convey their opinions in an insightful manner

I thought Jazz Richards would be a good perm player someone else pointed out in this thread that the Leeds twitter handle often makes fun of the pundits, in an ideal world the gender wouldn’t matter, it’s just a shame that with the likes of Carney there’s a significant proportion of people on twitter who can only see the fact she’s a woman, whereas the likes of Souness and Owen can have bad takes without it being such an issue.

Yeah a high level career doesn’t equate to high level punditry. Micheal Owen was unfortunately unbelievable at Pool and won the Ballon D’or, and even after his peak had games like the Wolfsburg one for us when he got the hattrick. However, he is a shocking pundit and comes out with the most ridiculous tripe you could ever hear.

 

[Maluco]

Pundits on TV routinely have terrible takes about a whole host of teams and players.

I don’t know why she is being punished for a take that is, at worst, ignorant of the circumstances of their promotion.

They could still tire in the second half of the season.

They have take what was speculative, as a personal attack. Club were irresponsible tweeting it out like that.

 

[Freak]

I do not see what is wrong with what she said; it was perfectly reasonable. That's the problem these days - small things get blown up because every stupid idiot now has a platform to voice their opinion via social media while hiding behind a computer screen.

 

[FizzyWomack]

I welcome any Leeds slander.

Horrible club. Horrible fans.

 

[DRM]

I welcome any Leeds slander.

Horrible club. Horrible fans.

This!

The amount of praise they were getting after LOOSING 6-2, the media and pundits with their sycophantic behaviour towards Leeds make me sick.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

I swear I’m not being sexist, but I think it’s been established by now that women’s football is about Conference level. Did Newcastle Jets U15 not beat the Australian women’s team 7-2? Feel free to correct me as I categorically disagree with her because as I much as I hate Leeds, they won their last 5 prior to lockdown and lost their first game back, but I have no intention of being sexist/demeaning the women’s game.

Germany's national team plays friendlies against men's 10th division sides to compete. A women's Bundesliga side lost 15-0 against a 8th division team in a 60-minute match.

 

[Cascarino]

Germany's national team plays friendlies against men's 10th division sides to compete. A women's Bundesliga side lost 15-0 against a 8th division team in a 60-minute match.

Well yeah of course, I don’t see what your point is?

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Well yeah of course, I don’t see what your point is?

No point. Just added to what the other poster was saying.

 

[duffer]

Serena Williams would lose at Tennis to a mediocre pro mens player. Does she know feck all about Tennis?

It's a silly point.

 

[FizzyWomack]

This!

The amount of praise they were getting after LOOSING 6-2, the media and pundits with their sycophantic behaviour towards Leeds make me sick.

I know, my mate who’s a massive Leeds fan smugly was saying it’s funny how everyone has such high praise even after we lost. So I said I know it’s funny that because you’ve played 14 and only won 5.

Soon sat him down.

 

[rotherham_red]

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[SCP]

One of the easiest games for Spurs to win recently... tells a lot. It’s nice to have principles, but when every action on the field is based on individual duels shit happens. Nothing wrong with that, but quite naive to think in 2021 you never adapt to your opponent strengths, unless you don’t have great ambitions on the table.

 

[el3mel]

I just find it ridiculous they play against top teams the same way they play against relegation fodders. They're not in any danger regarding relegation, but surely a top manager like Bielsa will modify his tactics a little bit to deal with teams better than him ? You can't play every game the same way regardless of the opposition's quality.

 

[Cascarino]

One of the easiest games for Spurs to win recently... tells a lot. It’s nice to have principles, but when every action on the field is based on individual duels shit happens. Nothing wrong with that, but quite naive to think in 2021 you never adapt to your opponent strengths, unless you don’t have great ambitions on the table.

They’re a newly promoted side, what kind of ambitions are you thinking of?

 

[RedTiger]

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[SCP]

Not talking about the club itself, talking about the general football concept. It works depending on what you want, personally don’t like the chaotic nature of the way they defend collectively. Of course they won’t be relegated, they will win more games against similar level opponents.

 

[Morty_]

Did everyone forget that they are a newly promoted side?
Okay, so they cant defend, they are still mid-table, which is more than what one should expect, really.

Leeds are doing fine.

 

[RedTiger]

Did everyone forget that they are a newly promoted side?
Okay, so they cant defend, they are still mid-table, which is more than what one should expect, really.

Leeds are doing fine.

The smiley is because the picture itself is very funny.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They’re a newly promoted side, what kind of ambitions are you thinking of?

It’s an interesting one. They’ll secure their PL status playing the way they do. And they’re great to watch. So you could argue that the fans shouldn’t want/expect any more. They’re going to continually get spanked by the best teams in the league though. Which will wear thin eventually. And this is without even factoring in an end of season slump.

 

[nuanced]

Not talking about the club itself, talking about the general football concept. It works depending on what you want, personally don’t like the chaotic nature of the way they defend collectively. Of course they won’t be relegated, they will win more games against similar level opponents.

Their shoulders dropped after the second goal. I predicted a rampage from Son and Kane, but Son didn't create as much threat from his runs on goals as I expected. First goal was highly contentious and changed the flow of the game. Goals 2 and 3 were simply poor defending from Leeds, nothing to say there. I stopped watching after the third goal, but until then it was hardly a case that Leeds sending 6 men to the Spurs box was causing them any significantly additional issues, than if they had 6 men in their own half.

To me today's defeat is again a reflection of their core issues - poor finishing and poor defensive organization. Maybe you can excuse the defensive issues considering, they're missing 3 of their first choice CBs, but they definitely need better finishers than Bamford and Rodrigo up front.

 

[marktan]

One of the easiest games for Spurs to win recently... tells a lot. It’s nice to have principles, but when every action on the field is based on individual duels shit happens. Nothing wrong with that, but quite naive to think in 2021 you never adapt to your opponent strengths, unless you don’t have great ambitions on the table.

I think it's probably something they'll have to adapt in their second season against the big teams to become a better team, in the first season it's more of a trial run as long as they avoid relegation which they comfortably will. They should learn it doesn't work against the big teams and adapt accordingly next season, if they don't they'll receive a lot of criticism and rightly too.

 

[Bastian]

I just find it ridiculous they play against top teams the same way they play against relegation fodders. They're not in any danger regarding relegation, but surely a top manager like Bielsa will modify his tactics a little bit to deal with teams better than him ? You can't play every game the same way regardless of the opposition's quality.

I guess this sums up how his critics view him.

My sentiments are quite different.

I just find it ridiculous they play against top teams the same way they play against relegation fodders

If that's what he was about, he'd not cultivate that style of play. They'd play that way maybe 8-10 games over a season. And like plucky underdogs or Burnley/Stoke thugs most of the time. It wouldn't educate the players in his philosophy. What he has done is taken an average team (at best) and made them into a unit that can, on its day, beat anyone by playing beautiful football.

The argument seems to be about going out holding teams at bay in order to salvage a point or get a lucky winner, when his whole outlook on the game is completely at odds with that. I can't see how he'd inspire his players and give them courage if it wasn't all or nothing.

Like you said, they're not in danger of getting relegated (at least, I think not) so what's the problem? Get them used to carry on with their style in the Premier League and then - and this is the most important aspect for that whole team - acquire some quality players.