Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?

[SirScholes]

We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.

Hmm I think with everyone fit we could of maintained a good record and wouldn’t of fell behind city by as much or at all. You also need a striker which we just don’t have. We’ve played some good stuff this year at times and it’s definitely getting better or was until pogba

Pogba was a big loss and I think only him and Bruno have the skills to break down the park the bus teams.

 

[justsomebloke]

We've had Pogba and Bruno in some games and we've played against poorer sides than this and the trend is pretty consistent: under Ole, we're usually great at counter attacks and usually poor against settled teams. Thats why we keep getting 0-0 against most top sides who defend against us but do well against City. Its why we can beat PSG and hammer Leipzig but lose to Istanbul and Sheffield.

This has been fairly consistent throughout Ole's time as manager regardless of the players. We're not good at breaking down defensive teams. At least not as good as most title winning teams. I dont see much reason to believe that will change regardless of the players.

I really don't know why this keeps coming, given that the record massively disproves the point. The simple fact is that we win almost all of our games against weaker teams who play a low block. Obviously it can be debated which opponents fit into the definition of a weaker team that plays a low block, but if we exclude big 6 + Leicester, and Everton this season, the following is true: Since Bruno's arrival we have lost precisely TWO such games in the PL - against Palace and Sheffield United. Additionally, we have draws against Palace and West Brom this year, and against West ham, Southampton, Everton and Wolves last year. That's it. The rest of them, we've won.

It's complete BS that "we're usually poor against settled teams".

Also, it simply is not correct that we rely on counterattack goals, and struggle to score from established play.

This season, we have (CL+PL):

Penalties: 12
Corners and free kicks: 9
Counterattacks: 21
Established play: 30

And, counterattack goals were more preponderant in the CL games than in the PL.

If we consider Palace, Newcastle, WBA, Southampton, West Ham, SHU, Wolves, Burnley and Fulham weaker teams who play a low block against United, our goal distribution against them in 14 games where we have scored at least one goal is like this:

Corners/free kicks: 3
Penalties: 3
Counterattack goals: 8
Established play: 20







Here's what our goals have been against weaker, low block teams:

CRP: 1 established
NEW: 1 off a corner, 1 established, 2 counter
WBA: 1 Penalty
SOU:

 

[MinGin]

For the people saying DDG propped up the stats for LvG and Mourinho, could opponents argue back and claim that Bruno has propped up the stats for Ole?

Yes, but DDG is sat on 17th/21st in terms of the save% who played more than 10 premier league games in that position when we are the 4th "less shot on target against" team, including Ryan played 11 games at Brighton. I don't think this is a standard of a team who want to compete a tittle.
When the team want to challenge a tittle, it should not have a visible weaken point in the whole squad.
(P.S. I do not have a clean cut chance against stats on hands, so i do not know whether it is depended on defensive tactic.)

The awful is, DDG at 17/18 Jose Team is the one and only GK that have 80%+ saving (140 numbers of shot on target against, 3.78 per games) in full length of the whole season since 2010.

Then, I think when we have a mid-table rank goal keeper, we can walk far than now.

For your reference,

Rank	Name	Team	Match	Goal Against	Goal Against per 90mins	Shot on Target Against	Save	Save%
1	Martinez	Aston Villa	27	28	1.04	122	94	78.7%
2	Ederson	Man City	29	20	0.69	60	47	78.3%
3	Nick Pope	Burnley	28	32	1.14	130	101	77.7%
4	Areola	Fulham	28	33	1.18	119	92	77.3%
5	Lloris	Tottenham	28	30	1.07	100	79	77.0%
6	Mendy	Chelsea	24	16	0.67	57	43	75.4%
7	Meslier	Leeds	27	45	1.67	143	106	73.4%
8	Pickford	Everton	23	29	1.29	97	69	72.2%
9	Alisson	Liverpool	24	26	1.08	78	55	71.8%
10	Sanches	Brighton	17	17	1.00	53	39	71.7%
11	Schmeichel	Leicester	29	32	1.10	105	73	71.4%
12	Fabianski	West Ham	26	30	1.15	96	68	70.8%
13	Leno	Arsenal	27	28	1.05	91	67	70.3%
14	Ramsdale	Sheffield	29	55	1.96	162	113	69.1%
15	Johnstone	West Brom	28	50	1.72	152	105	69.1%
16	Patricio	Wolves	29	38	1.31	103	73	68.9%
17	DDG	Man United	24	29	1.23	77	53	67.5%
18	Darlow	Newcastle	25	43	1.72	120	81	66.7%
19	Guaita	Crystal Palace	29	47	1.62	130	84	66.2%
20	McCarthy	Southampton	25	48	1.92	113	70	61.9%
21	Ryan	Brighton	11	19	1.73	30	16	50%

Source https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_squads_keeper

 

[Thepinhead]

Honestly under Ole I always feel we can score a goal anytime. During LVG and Mourinhos era I just remember, when going a goal down, thinking "I am lucky if we draw this game". So yes entertaining wise Ole's football is better.

 

[mariachi-19]

Morons suggesting that ole is no better than mourinho need to go watch Spurs and then do one

 

[Water Melon]

In their prime LvG and JM are in different galaxies compared to Ole. In their washed up state, JM managed to finish second on 81 pts and win the EL. So Ole is yet to achieve what weeeeell past it Mourinho did.

 

[CG1010]

We press a bit more in the attacking third but less in midfield, defense and overall. So a pressing game we can only dream of this is not. Forgive me but 2% more possesion in practically meaningless. That type of variance is expected season to season let alone across years and different managers.

That's probably because we have more of the ball now than Mourinho.

 

[CG1010]

In their prime LvG and JM are in different galaxies compared to Ole. In their washed up state, JM managed to finish second on 81 pts and win the EL. So Ole is yet to achieve what weeeeell past it Mourinho did.

Well if that washed up JM didn't leave an absolute mess behind him, we probably would have gone beyond that already.

 

[Water Melon]

Well if that washed up JM didn't leave an absolute mess behind him, we probably would have gone beyond that already.

Let us reach what JM achieved with United first, before we talk about meltdown. Beat his achievement first, and then build upon it. Under Ole, we have not qualified from CL group, we have not won EL or any domestic cup, we have not reached an 80 point benchmark in the league. We have not even finished second yet. We did all that with Mourinho, although at the time I was not against his sacking.

 

[roonster09]

Let us reach what JM achieved with United first, before we talk about meltdown. Beat his achievement first, and then build upon it. Under Ole, we have not qualified from CL group, we have not won EL or any domestic cup, we have not reached an 80 point benchmark in the league. We have not even finished second yet. We did all that with Mourinho, although at the time I was not against his sacking.

We also finished 6th, 2nd and was in 6th position when he was sacked (11 points behind 4th placed team). Didn't finish top 4 in consecutive seasons under him or Van Gaal, which Ole has good chance of achieving it.

Trophies are a concern though, we should win soon. ManUtd not winning trophies for so many years is never good enough. It should be always good league position + domestic trophy.

 

[Smores]

Well if that washed up JM didn't leave an absolute mess behind him, we probably would have gone beyond that already.

How can that logic work, if his mess finished 2nd and we've strengthened how can it be harder to replicate his results?

It's not like it was short term players who are no longer of use. We play with 7 of the same lot most games, who people claim have improved under Ole. Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Greenwood are the others who again people say are good signings.

 

[Water Melon]

We also finished 6th, 2nd and was in 6th position when he was sacked (11 points behind 4th placed team). Didn't finish top 4 in consecutive seasons under him or Van Gaal, which Ole has good chance of achieving it.

Trophies are a concern though, we should win soon. ManUtd not winning trophies for so many years is never good enough. It should be always good league position + domestic trophy.

Now, I agree with that. It is both the league position and trophies. However, If I was to choose between finishing 2nd with no trophies for 5 years, to finishing, say, 4th for five years with a couple of EL and FA cups, I would take the latter each and every time. Clubs are judged by trophies they won. I am not even talking about winning really big trophies like the prem or CL, as I have not seen us to come even close to those two in our post SAF era.

 

[roonster09]

Now, I agree with that. It is both the league position and trophies. However, If I was to choose between finishing 2nd with no trophies for 5 years, to finishing, say, 4th for five years with a couple of EL and FA cups, I would take the latter each and every time. Clubs are judged by trophies they won. I am not even talking about winning really big trophies like the prem or CL, as I have not seen us to come even close to those two in our post SAF era.

I dont think we have to build any hypothetical scenarios here.

We are a big club and should act as one. Expectations should be always on winning trophies, leagues and domestic cups.

 

[Water Melon]

I dont think we have to build any hypothetical scenarios here.

We are a big club and should act as one. Expectations should be always on winning trophies, leagues and domestic cups.

Fully agree. Pool managed to win the prem and CL with Pep managing City. It is doable, but you have to have the very best manager to do that.

 

[justsomebloke]

Now, I agree with that. It is both the league position and trophies. However, If I was to choose between finishing 2nd with no trophies for 5 years, to finishing, say, 4th for five years with a couple of EL and FA cups, I would take the latter each and every time. Clubs are judged by trophies they won. I am not even talking about winning really big trophies like the prem or CL, as I have not seen us to come even close to those two in our post SAF era.

Who judges a club on the amount of domestic cups it's won? Or Europa Leagues, for that matter. If the EL matters to how a club is judged, it's the fact that you're playing in the EL in the first place.

 

[Counterfactual]

Yes, but DDG is sat on 17th/21st in terms on save% who played more than 10 premier league games in that position when we are the 4th "less shot on target against" team, including Ryan played 11 games at Brighton. I don't think this is a standard of a team who want to compete a tittle.
When the team want to challenge a tittle, it should not have a visible weaken point in the whole squad.
(P.S. I do not have a clean cut chance against stats on hands, so i do not know whether it is depended on defensive tactic.)

The awful is, DDG at 17/18 Jose Team is the one and only GK that have 80%+ saving (140 numbers of shot on target against, 3.78 per games) in full length of the whole season since 2010.

Then, I think when we have a mid-table rank goal keeper, we can walk far than now.

For your reference,

Rank	Name	Team	Match	Goal Against	Goal Against per 90mins	Shot on Target Against	Save	Save%
1	Martinez	Aston Villa	27	28	1.04	122	94	78.7%
2	Ederson	Man City	29	20	0.69	60	47	78.3%
3	Nick Pope	Burnley	28	32	1.14	130	101	77.7%
4	Areola	Fulham	28	33	1.18	119	92	77.3%
5	Lloris	Tottenham	28	30	1.07	100	79	77.0%
6	Mendy	Chelsea	24	16	0.67	57	43	75.4%
7	Meslier	Leeds	27	45	1.67	143	106	73.4%
8	Pickford	Everton	23	29	1.29	97	69	72.2%
9	Alisson	Liverpool	24	26	1.08	78	55	71.8%
10	Sanches	Brighton	17	17	1.00	53	39	71.7%
11	Schmeichel	Leicester	29	32	1.10	105	73	71.4%
12	Fabianski	West Ham	26	30	1.15	96	68	70.8%
13	Leno	Arsenal	27	28	1.05	91	67	70.3%
14	Ramsdale	Sheffield	29	55	1.96	162	113	69.1%
15	Johnstone	West Brom	28	50	1.72	152	105	69.1%
16	Patricio	Wolves	29	38	1.31	103	73	68.9%
17	DDG	Man United	24	29	1.23	77	53	67.5%
18	Darlow	Newcastle	25	43	1.72	120	81	66.7%
19	Guaita	Crystal Palace	29	47	1.62	130	84	66.2%
20	McCarthy	Southampton	25	48	1.92	113	70	61.9%
21	Ryan	Brighton	11	19	1.73	30	16	50%

Source https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats#all_stats_squads_keeper

I have my concerns with that table. I think the sample size is too small to draw conclusions and make sweeping generalisations.

DDG has 53 saves from 77 shots on target. If he made just two more, he'd be mid-table (71.4%). If he made seven more, he'd be third on the list instead of 17th (77.9%)!

 

[justsomebloke]

Fully agree. Pool managed to win the prem and CL with Pep managing City. It is doable, but you have to have the very best manager to do that.

You have to have a very good team to do that.

 

[roonster09]

Fully agree. Pool managed to win the prem and CL with Pep managing City. It is doable, but you have to have the very best manager to do that.

Yeah, its the manager who sets the expectations.

 

[Water Melon]

Who judges a club on the amount of domestic cups it's won? Or Europa Leagues, for that matter. If the EL matters to how a club is judged, it's the fact that you're playing in the EL in the first place.

Who judges the club on finishing top 4 regularly? I am not even dreaming of winning the prem or Cl under Ole, because I doubt that he is an elite manager. So out of the two lesser evils, I would take winning even small cups than finishing with sweet fook all.

 

[justsomebloke]

Who judges the club on finishing top 4 regularly? I am not even dreaming of winning the prem or Cl under Ole, because I doubt that he is an elite manager. So out of the two lesser evils, I would take winning even small cups than finishing with sweet fook all.

Finishing top 4 regularly defines you as a top club far more than winning domestic cups do. But in any case, why this lack of ambition? The target for United has to be to build a team that can challenge for the PL title regularly. In other words, get to where City and Liverpool are currently (Liverpools travails this year aside). Whether we get there in the next couple of seasons is what defines success for me - for the manager and the board (because that will also require significant investment). We're not there yet. It will take time and some patience. If we win a cup or two in the mean time, that's nice, but not really terribly important.

Also, football is not a game between "elite managers", what nonsense.

 

[CG1010]

How can that logic work, if his mess finished 2nd and we've strengthened how can it be harder to replicate his results?

It's not like it was short term players who are no longer of use. We play with 7 of the same lot most games, who people claim have improved under Ole. Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Greenwood are the others who again people say are good signings.

The last I checked, when JM left, we had 26 points from 17 games, 6th and closer to relegation than Liverpool who were at the top. He had spent 400 million on misfits, leaving massive gaps in the team, and all our current best players were demoralised and ready to leave. That's the very definition of a mess.

And regarding what we have done after that, it would take any manager atleast 3 years to take the team to the summit. I am not saying I am confident Ole will get there but its unfair to expect anything better than to expect faster results than what Pep or Klopp managed.

 

[FrankWhite]

I don't understand why someone would use stats to prove how boring or otherwise our style of play is. How does a fan watch a match and think whether he was entertained or not will be determined in the days and weeks to come as the full story emerges as to how entertaining or otherwise the match was and how well or badly we played. The whole thing just exemplifies the insane rabbit hole we're in with football where stats have gone from mildly interesting pieces of trivia to the thing people genuinely seem to base their opinions around now. It's bizarre.

Honestly if you see us play 6 games and you like what you see during those games, or you don't like what you see or you sometimes like what you see and otherwise don't - isn't that you bring to the table in these dicussions?

"I thought I was entertained by football in this period but looking back at the stats I can clearly see how wrong I was, I will now seek therapy to ensure that any thoughts of pleasure are suppressed as these figures clearly prove what a fool I am"

Honestly a thread, effectively, about whether we play better football now or before (or indeed in the future) is entirely subjective and yet - stats, stats, stats, stats, stats. Some need to learn to form an opinion for once. This is my theory behind why some people aren't bothered by the impact of VAR on flow of the game, because the spectator enjoyment isn't important to them. They'll just glance up occasionally from their phone knowing they can find out how well it went after the game by finding out which player had the better pass completion rate in the final third than anyone else.

I think if the question was, do we play better looking football under Ole Vs JM/LVG then you'd be right and it would be purely based on aesthetics and what you see. Instead, the question is: Is Ole's football really better than JM/LVG's? It may sound like semantics but these are two very different questions. The later can be interpreted in so many different ways including aesthetics, effectiveness etc. so I can understand why people are using stats to back up their arguements and opinions.

In my opinion the answer to both questions is yes. I've seen more moments of exciting patterns of play and results from watching us under Ole than I ever did under JM or LVG. As far as result is concerned, I think barring the cup trophies, which if we're honest can come down to luck of the draw especially deep into competitions, Ole's results so far compares favourably with the best any of the others ever achieved. When you look at the intangibles, team chemistry, moral etc, again it compares favourably. When you look at direction of progress, in my opinion, there's a clearer path to success now than we've previously had and it has been achieved without sacrificing long term goals for immediate success. Also, I feel like I can clearly see which positions we need to upgrade to take us to the next level. Never really felt that with the previous managers. What's funny is, I'm not even a huge fan of Ole's nor am I entirely convinced he's the right man to get us back to the glory days. There may be recency bias at play here, I just know that for me, this is better than what we've had previously, all things considered.

 

[MinGin]

I have my concerns with that table. I think the sample size is too small to draw conclusions and make sweeping generalisations.

DDG has 53 saves from 77 shots on target. If he made just two more, he'd be mid-table (71.4%). If he made seven more, he'd be third on the list instead of 17th (77.9%)!

Oh, the website difination is
Save% -- Save Percentage
(Shots on Target Against - Goals Against)/Shots on Target Against
Note that not all shots on target are stopped by the keeper, many will be stopped by defenders
And penalty is not courted in save %
So, 77-25/77= 67.5%, we conceded 4 of 4 penalty

Yes, but this is the "if", if he can save more shots, we may collect more points. If he is the 17/18 mode, we maybe top of the table.

 

[CG1010]

Let us reach what JM achieved with United first, before we talk about meltdown. Beat his achievement first, and then build upon it. Under Ole, we have not qualified from CL group, we have not won EL or any domestic cup, we have not reached an 80 point benchmark in the league. We have not even finished second yet. We did all that with Mourinho, although at the time I was not against his sacking.

We should finish second this season and I don't care about an arbitrary point threshold when we are on track to be there or thereabouts. In the league he would achieve the same as JM ever achieved. And plus he would be able to successively get into top 4 which has eluded us.

Yes, the lack of trophy is a negative but honestly it is not such a big deal for me. And as you mentioned, nobody wanted JM to get sacked after his second season. So there is no reason to ask for Ole's sacking either.

 

[golden_blunder]

Op, yes

Lvg is ruled out, not worth talking about

Jose going down the usual Jose route.

ole might not be the man going forward but you can see there is correction and fore planning. Even if you don’t like him you have to see that

 

[Counterfactual]

Oh, the website difination is
Save% -- Save Percentage
(Shots on Target Against - Goals Against)/Shots on Target Against
Note that not all shots on target are stopped by the keeper, many will be stopped by defenders
And penalty is not courted in save %
So, 77-25/77= 67.5%, we conceded 4 of 4 penalty

Yes, but this is the "if", if he can save more shots, we may collect more points. If he is the 17/18 mode, we maybe top of the table.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with the overall point you're making. (I'm still not sure the data is statistically significant, but it certainly does illustrate DDG isn't in the form of his life anymore).

 

[rotherham_red]

We should finish second this season and I don't care about an arbitrary point threshold when we are on track to be there or thereabouts. In the league he would achieve the same as JM ever achieved. And plus he would be able to successively get into top 4 which has eluded us.

Yes, the lack of trophy is a negative but honestly it is not such a big deal for me. And as you mentioned, nobody wanted JM to get sacked after his second season. So there is no reason to ask for Ole's sacking either.

And he did all this with a team who Jose thought wasn't worth persevering with. Jose wanted Pogba, Martial and Shaw out. He let it be known he didn't want Fred. He thought of Rashford and McTominay as squad players at best.

The only two regulars in the first XI now who were regulars under Jose are Lindelof and DDG. Everyone else has either been sold or marginalised.

When you put it into context, Ole's done pretty damn well.

 

[Smores]

The last I checked, when JM left, we had 26 points from 17 games, 6th and closer to relegation than Liverpool who were at the top. He had spent 400 million on misfits, leaving massive gaps in the team, and all our current best players were demoralised and ready to leave. That's the very definition of a mess.

And regarding what we have done after that, it would take any manager atleast 3 years to take the team to the summit. I am not saying I am confident Ole will get there but its unfair to expect anything better than to expect faster results than what Pep or Klopp managed.

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

 

[Cassidy]

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

2nd place flattered us in his second season. The 2nd half of that season we really wasnt great at all

 

[CG1010]

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

You could apply this logic to every club Mourinho went to then. He is documented to push his teams into having a peak at the 2nd season and which has now found to be conclusively not sustainable from 3rd season onwards. Besides being physically and mentally unfit, the team Jose left relied on heroics from DDG to get 2nd and had Lukaku and Sanchez. And had to break this up as he decided (correctly in my opinion that United's long term future would be better without them) and had to develop a team. I think most fans are able to see how much better place we are in now, compared to any point during Jose's tenure. But you are entitled to your opinions!

 

[CG1010]

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

Also I don't know about you, but by the time Jose was sacked, majority of the forum was of the view that the team is not good enough for top 4. With Lukaku and Sanchez as attacking fulcrum, Young and Valencia as the full backs, Fellaini as a key first team player, and a running list of injured CBs, there were not many who had a positive view about the team. And that Ole could even get the team within striking distance surprised everyone.

 

[justsomebloke]

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

I don't think that's true at all. The dressing room was a mess, and the squad was full of players who a) weren't good enough, or were on the downturn due to age, b) lacked the proper motivation and/or had a detrimental influence on team cohesion or c) fit Mourinho's style of play, but not the one we wanted to develop. You didn't see many commentators at the time questioning the need to blow this up and start over. It was pretty much the consensus that this was a badly messed up club and squad.

 

[MU655]

Biggest issue I have is this: in the same period that Solskjaer has been manager, Rodgers is on course to improve Leicester by 20 points. Solskjaer is on course for only 6 points improvement despite far more spending.

People say you can't compare points between seasons, but I disagree. Man city are again on course to finish with over 90 points, showing that the league is not stronger. And Leicester have managed a massive improvement in the same time frame, which shows more was possible.

I think he is getting away with minimal improvement. I think he is particularly lucky in terms of Liverpool's collapse, which is painting this season as better than it is.

 

[Eriku]

I see this argument all the time and it's not what was said back then. Jose without argument caused a mess as per his usual 3rd season implosion but he still left a team that had just finished 2nd and had won the EL. When he left the biggest issue was removed but for some reason that's been spun into him leaving scored earth which just isn't true. We we're a 2nd to 4th place team in crisis.

He left a team needing some investment as 2nd was pushing it for this team but we've made that investment now or at least a good way to it. If Ole is doing a good job and he's made good signings we can't be lagging behind Jose's squad and still be blaming Jose. That doesn't add up no matter the spin.

Put it this way Ole went through an atrocious period last season and the start of this. Neither were permanent states we weren't suddenly a 8th place team yet that's the logic your applying for Jose's last season.

At some point some accountability is needed rather than excuses.

You really think Mourinho was about to turn that mess around?

And as has been pointed out, we’d have far fewer points had DDG been human that season, and winning the EL was possible because he totally bailed on the league, he wasn’t even interested in trying to make it to one of the top 4 spots, or so it seemed.

He overperformed in the short term by making it harder for the club in the long term. Our wage structure and stock of players who weren’t really committed to the cause made Ole’s job way harder than you seem to think.

 

[Smores]

I don't think that's true at all. The dressing room was a mess, and the squad was full of players who a) weren't good enough, or were on the downturn due to age, b) lacked the proper motivation and/or had a detrimental influence on team cohesion or c) fit Mourinho's style of play, but not the one we wanted to develop. You didn't see many commentators at the time questioning the need to blow this up and start over. It was pretty much the consensus that this was a badly messed up club and squad.

But that goes back to my earlier point, we're still consistently starting 7 of them in line ups. So if we've chopped away the deadwood and improved under Ole with strengthened signings we can't still be lagging that teams best achievement and claiming dramatic improvement.

When Jose made that comment about 2nd this place went ballistic so it clearly wasn't that bad. There's just a recency bias so it doesn't take much for opinions to shift on squad strength, it's happened consistently in waves.

Ole took on a team in crisis but there's no reason other than bias to ignore the teams prior peaks and achievements. We've seen that teams top and bottom which is actually useful for a baseline.

Anyway slightly off topic as i think this thread was intended for style talk so I'll shut up.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I just dont get the reasoning for the comparison. LVG and Mourinho were failures. So was Moyes. Even if Ole is better than them why is that a baseline to measure from? Ole need to be assessed against Klopp, Pep, Sir Alex etc. That's the Man Utd standard. Or at least I thought it was. If it doesnt look like he will get us to be champions in whatever timeframe this project is he needs to be sacked, even if he is better than LVG and Mourinho.

 

[Smores]

You really think Mourinho was about to turn that mess around?

And as has been pointed out, we’d have far fewer points had DDG been human that season, and winning the EL was possible because he totally bailed on the league, he wasn’t even interested in trying to make it to one of the top 4 spots, or so it seemed.

He overperformed in the short term by making it harder for the club in the long term. Our wage structure and stock of players who weren’t really committed to the cause made Ole’s job way harder than you seem to think.

No i don't and that's not what i stated at all. Just that form isn't a permanent reflection on the quality of a squad, a change in manager evidences that all the time i.e Tuchel. Ole and Tuchel didn't take on squads rightly in 6th place otherwise the prior managers wouldn't be sacked, they took over a top 4 squad being mismanaged.

Ole has steadied the ship which is an achievement but that's not the aim. Any new manager wants to at least achieve the peaks of the prior manager if not surpass them not just avoid the state that got them sacked. Jose's peak is hardly aspirational it's a poor showing itself for the stature of this club.

 

[lysglimt]

For me with LVG you could see what he was trying to do. His interviews about players taking responsibility on the pitch were often criticised but are not that different to what Pep has been on record as saying.

His tenure won't be remembered fondly and I can see why. However for me some of what he was saying and the signings he made made sense, but ultimately didn't work out.

Under Ole there was a feel good factor and he has done ok. However stats don't tell the full story for me. Losing games is part and parcel of football and although I always want us to win, it's easier to handle a loss with a good display. I just don't see the displays at the moment and I have to say I do believe coaching is a major part of that.

Yeah those defeats in the league and domestic cups in the last 4.5 months were hard to take - BOTH of them

 

[CG1010]

But that goes back to my earlier point, we're still consistently starting 7 of them in line ups. So if we've chopped away the deadwood and improved under Ole with strengthened signings we can't still be lagging that teams best achievement and claiming dramatic improvement.

When Jose made that comment about 2nd this place went ballistic so it clearly wasn't that bad. There's just a recency bias so it doesn't take much for opinions to shift on squad strength, it's happened consistently in waves.

Ole took on a team in crisis but there's no reason other than bias to ignore the teams prior peaks and achievements. We've seen that teams top and bottom which is actually useful for a baseline.

Anyway slightly off topic as i think this thread was intended for style talk so I'll shut up.

I took a look at the 7 players I believe you are referring to, and except for De Gea ( who we do need to upgrade actually) and Lindelof, all others (Rashford, Martial, Shaw, Fred and Mctominay) were either sidelined or were going no where in terms of development. They weren't the most important in the team that achieved 2nd position. (Hell Fred wasn't even at the club at that time).

 

[Eriku]

No i don't and that's not what i stated at all. Just that form isn't a permanent reflection on the quality of a squad, a change in manager evidences that all the time i.e Tuchel. Ole and Tuchel didn't take on squads rightly in 6th place otherwise the prior managers wouldn't be sacked, they took over a top 4 squad being mismanaged.

Ole has steadied the ship which is an achievement but that's not the aim. Any new manager wants to at least achieve the peaks of the prior manager if not surpass them not just avoid the state that got them sacked. Jose's peak is hardly aspirational it's a poor showing itself for the stature of this club.

What Jose did was, as I said, achieved through unsustainable means, and set us back in terms of becoming consistent competitors again. I don’t think that ought to be the benchmark, especially when someone is clearly doing a great job of laying down the foundations.

Whether Ole takes us to the top again is well up for debate, even most Ole backers would admit that, so that point I dont have any problems with.