g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });

Has the **** of Rashford become more important than the player?

anant

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
8,260
He would have because it's effecting his football. SAF doesn't like outside activities. To him it's only Manchester United and Manchester United only.
But is it affecting his football?
In the league he has 20 G+A this season - bettered by Kane, Salah, Bruno, Son, Bamford and Vardy. 3 of these guys are strikers and Salah while a wide player is still their main goalscorer and comes in central more often than now.
If we remove the penalties from the stat, only Kane (33), Salah(21), Son (26) and Bamford (22) have a higher return that Rashford's 20.

The guy is a credit to the club and society. If anything, he isn't praised enough for his on-field performances and off-field contributions
 

Hugh Jass

Shave Dass
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
11,320
John Giles was saying he should just concentrate on his football. He said you have to be at 100%.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
Can anyone name any top quality player who after 300 senior appearances were not as good as Rashford is now after a similar number of games?
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
Can anyone name any top quality player who after 300 senior appearances were not as good as Rashford is now after a similar number of games?
A player who is closer to championship quality? Then no one.
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
3,340
Is there really a ****? As far as I can see some people view Rashford as if he were Gabriel Obertan. You can say what you want about stats, but his numbers over the last few years show there's a great player there. Maybe not to the upper echelon levels we might like, but clearly a cut above the rest. Then you add his personality and the fact he's united through and through and you have to wonder why anyone would want him to be shifted? Other clubs would gladly take Rashford and mock us for selling, and he'd probably perform much better under proper coached team.

He hasn't been right, that's obvious, whether mentally or physically we as fans will probably never know. What I do know is that he's not the reason he's playing every match and not being subbed. He's not the reason we've had no shape or direction in attack over the years. He is however a player that can be relied upon to provide good service to this club over the next decade or so. Whether that is a pivotal role or less so, will be up to him to iron out the kinks and to the coaching of the team.

There's no need to make out Rashford to be this brainless, show boating, head stuck up his arse player, when he's clearly not. We can all clearly see the disjoint in our attacks, we know these players are better than they have shown hell even our star player Bruno has often times looked useless. How long before we start calling for Bruno's head like we've done Rashford, Pogba, Martial and more over the years. Maybe just maybe, it's more than just them.
Lets not act like Martil doesn't deserve it and quite honestly I feel both Marcus and Tony benefitted from our poor period. Neither were good in 2017 and 2018 to any degree. Ole emphasizing trying to get the best out of United's youth is what brought him to the party as a star, and the honest truth is that, as good as he was, that period also coinceded with us not creating chances and finishing 6th. We dumped Lukaku to bring bay the United way of giving youth chances. Rashford was supposed to shine as our no.9 remember, and he was so poor in the role, Martial who can't move off the ball had to takeover. For a period, we could only score goals from penalties, this was also when Rashford was at his peak, and to his credit, it was his consistent drives that were helping us get these penalties. However, it wasn't until Bruno came that we actually started creating any real chances, and forgive me for thinking our attackers aren't just supposed to stay high up the pitch and score, but especially as a wide forward, chance creation is also important. We then had project restart where everyone bar Rashford was really good, this was the period where we realized he'd stopped consistently taking players on. He's tried being a playmaker and it hasn't worked.

The point of this is that Rashford hasn't really had long spells of dominance or impactful play that led to team success ( goals/dominant play not trophies). That's ok and he has shown that he can be a really good player for us ( unlike Martial who should be sold), however, he's been miscast as a star when he should be seen as a supporting player like Sterling is. I don't think he's better than Sterling or Mahrez, yet people act like he's above their level when he has never actually proven he is. There are people that will tell you he's better than Lukaku, he's not. Part of the reason for that is this idea of him being young. In actuality, he's not that young anymore.
 

0le

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
5,806
Location
UK
He did a great thing off the field and is a good player on the field and has just had injuries this year which have blighted him. However, I think his campaign was overstated by media and fans, likewise any "decline" or comments that he "isn't good enough".
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
A player who is closer to championship quality? Then no one.
Okay what player who went on to become a top player wasn’t as good as Rashford is now in the year they turned 24.

Appearances or age up to you. Comparing him unfavourably to others is apparently grossly unfair so who do some want to compare him favourably to given his age or experience?

Surely finding someone isn’t difficult. Pick anyone.
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
3,340
The other poster is lying about how many goals he scored and saying Dan James is going to have a better Euros so I’m not surprised he’s getting a bit of grief when he’s arguing in bad faith.

In terms of toxicity, nearly every post I’ve seen from you on this forum is excessively negative, which doesn’t really contribute to making the forum a less toxic place.
Personally, my problem is in the past,, some of our fans have actively suggested that we shouldn't buy better players to compete with him in favour of his development. People legitimately had issues with Mourinho logically having Rashford and Martial compete against each other. People have suggested that we don't need Grealish/Sancho because Rashford is better anyway. Its all well and good supporting our players, but when it starts to affect the quality of our team, it is a problem.
 

Jibbs

New Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
2,238
Put simply both Marcus and Martial are average at best and a reason why United has struggled to win anything significant for past 3,4 years. They are just not reliable. May be they both need to be moved like Lingard to rediscover their form. Outside of football, Rashford is a top guy.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
Okay what player who went in to become a top player wasn’t as good as Rashford is now in he year they turned 24.

Appearances or age up to you. Comparing him unfavourably to others is apparently grossly unfair so who do some want to compare him favourably to given his age or experience?

Surely finding someone isn’t difficult. Pick anyone.
Look at all the top players and at what level they were playing when they were 23. Don't have to go too far, Salah and Mane would help.

In before someone comes up with usual and tired "lol Rashy compared to Salah and Mane" don't bother.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
Look at all the top players and at what level they were playing when they were 23. Don't have to go too far, Salah and Mane would help.

In before someone comes up with usual and tired "lol Rashy compared to Salah and Mane" don't bother.
But I’m asking you to compare favourably the player Rashford is now in his 24th year and after 300 games with someone else who is or went on to become a top player when they were of similar age or experience.

I don’t get why you don’t want people to think you’re comparing the players. That’s exactly what you’re supposed to do.

So Salah then? Or do you not want to use him? You’re not clear
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,246
Location
France
Look at all the top players and at what level they were playing when they were 23. Don't have to go too far, Salah and Mane would help.

In before someone comes up with usual and tired "lol Rashy compared to Salah and Mane" don't bother.
On the top of my head there is Aubameyang, Salah or Schweinsteiger. I would be tempted to mention Klose and Drogba.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
Salah reached 271 club appearances (Rashford‘s current total) in his first season with Liverpool. In that season he scored 44 goals. Admittedly he was 26.

So Salah then? Are we going with him?

Not judging.
 

V.O.

Last Man Standing finalist 2019/20
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
8,095
But I’m asking you to compare favourably the player Rashford is now in his 24th year and after 300 games with someone else who is or went on to become a top player when they were of similar age or experience.
Thierry Henry only had about 30-odd goals from 160-something games for Monaco and Juve before joining Arsenal at about the age Rashford is now.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,570
Last 2 seasons in PL, from open play he has 38 goals + assists in PL.

Only 6 players has more goals and assists in last 2 seasons in PL, Kane, KdB, Salah, Son, Mane, Vardy. None of them are close to Rashford when it comes to age.

Kane - 51 goals + Assists
KdB - 47
Salah - 47
Son - 47
Mane - 43
Rashford - 38
Adding in assists and looking at their per game records, it looks like this:

(Goals/assists per game over the last two seasons)

0.91 - Kane
0.76 - KDB
0.75 - Son
0.73 - M. Salah
0.69 - Rashford
0.62 - Mane

Also, we may add in Bruno (with half a season less played):

0.91 - Kane
0.81 - B. Fernandes
0.76 - KDB
0.75 - Son
0.73 - M. Salah
0.69 - Rashford
0.62 - Mane
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
14,393
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Like I said, perfect example. Poster who don't see why the stats was posted.

Reasonable poster :lol:

So poster who can't read, can't count, liar and what else?
hahaha what have I lied about you absolute weapon, all I did was comment on your copy and paste stats for every mention of Rashford on here. Here we are sitting looking back at a shite season by our own standards when Rashford, the highest paid English player was basically given the keys to the attack and he majorly choked. he fecked us on repeat walking around the place in must win games and you’re wilfully ignoring that for whatever reason. You can’t handle that what people started saying where we’d end up half way through the season has actually come to pass. Second year running absolutely choking in the EL and you’re banging on like he’s one of the best players in the PL. Give over :lol:
 

Posh Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
3,517
Location
Peterborough, England
Personally, my problem is in the past,, some of our fans have actively suggested that we shouldn't buy better players to compete with him in favour of his development. People legitimately had issues with Mourinho logically having Rashford and Martial compete against each other. People have suggested that we don't need Grealish/Sancho because Rashford is better anyway. Its all well and good supporting our players, but when it starts to affect the quality of our team, it is a problem.
I don’t really see anyone making those arguments in this discussion though? Seems to be people deliberately underplaying him as a player and also suggesting his charity work is some kind of problem, which is really daft to be honest.
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
3,041
Also it's hilarious people come up with "Can he be the lynchpin in the team that will win CL? No" as everyone and their dogs rated players like Mendy, Rudiger, Kovacic, Jorginho, Werner, Mount as players who will be winning CLs just a year ago when they looked so poor under Lampard, well everyone except Mendy and Mount. It's as if winning PL and CL depends on one player.
Literally is nothing but a silly excuse in order to distort the reality that the manager is not good enough. Rashford has had two 20+ goal per season campaigns why the OP has even bothered to create a thread is beyond comprehension. There are far more pressing concerns surrounding other areas / players which would warrant threads.

It seems from consensus that most outside of United rate Marcus. I completely agree with his performances being below par at times, but considering injuries and his overall contribution to influence a result it's permissable when objectively considering his value to the team.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
Can anyone name any top quality player who after 300 senior appearances were not as good as Rashford is now after a similar number of games?
PlayerGamesGoalsAssists
Rashford (up to 20/21)2859356
Bale (up to 13/14)2928389
Robben (up to 08/09)2985855
Zidane (up to 98/99)3246136
Iniesta (up 09/10)3122457
Rooney (up to 08/09)31511459
Ronaldo (up to 08/09)32312375
Henry (up to 01/02)30811131

Rashford is ahead of Robben, Zidane, Iniesta and Henry. And although he's behind Bale, Rooney and Ronaldo he's comparable enough to be in the conversation.
 
Last edited:

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
Thierry Henry only had about 30-odd goals from 160-something games for Monaco and Juve before joining Arsenal at about the age Rashford is now.
Fair enough. After similar level of club games Henry was in his third season at Arsenal. Helpfully he was also 24.

The argument is Rashford now is a better player than Henry was in his third season at Arsenal aged 24?

Again I’m just asking for examples.
 

Mindhunter

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
3,635
Couple of points that I want to make here.

Firstly, there is a hint of an accusation here from some posters that Rashford is trying to build a brand around him that would hide some of his performance issues this season. Well, I don't think he really asked for it. He felt responsibility towards a cause and he supported it; the rest of it was the media who put him up on a pedestal. They were surprised that a young footballer is spending his free time eliminating hunger instead of inviting young European women into his hotel room. He shouldn't really care how his motivation is perceived.

Secondly, he has end-product which is something I can't say about earlier academy products who weren't held to the standard of MUFC and kept getting games. Rashford's issue is that of decision making and team-play. He was terrible in the Europa Final and his general play is extremely frustrating as he is far too selfish for someone who plays behind a striker and so has no contribution if he isn't able to score himself. However, all of these issues can be coached out of him. He has the ability.

His footballing side has suffered, probably due to injuries but he has the end product to compete at this level. I have heavily criticized him on the match thread for the final but I truly believe that our best performances would be in a side featuring him, not without provided Ole can coach him into being more of a team player.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,246
Location
France
Son's another
I completely forgot him but in general 23/24 is a turning point for top players at the exception of a few freaks who are great at a younger age. Which doesn't mean that Rashford will be a bonafide top player but he is on the normal trajectory.
 

Maureen-yo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2016
Messages
831
Location
London
7th for g/a in the team that came second

amazing. We are so lucky. Thanks for constantly reminding us. Mark my words James will have more effective euros. Come back to me after it happens. Just like i said we’d bomb if we continued to rely on Rashford and it came to pass but you guys are taking some supposed moral high ground. Good on you
You realise that’s 7th in the Prem right not 7th at the club?
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
3,041
Personally, my problem is in the past,, some of our fans have actively suggested that we shouldn't buy better players to compete with him in favour of his development. People legitimately had issues with Mourinho logically having Rashford and Martial compete against each other. People have suggested that we don't need Grealish/Sancho because Rashford is better anyway. Its all well and good supporting our players, but when it starts to affect the quality of our team, it is a problem.
This is a logical suggestion. Spending 90 million on a position which already has a pivotal player when other areas are significantly weaker is completely unjustified. If the Saudis ran United than this type of approach is more acceptable but that's not the reality. Why are fans concerned about Grealish with brain fart centre halfs, no outstanding right sided attacker and a 'hope for the best' midfield duo which is depleting the teams overall qualities.

I do agree however to this applying to many youth players having already seen suggestions to not buy player X in favour of Diallo's development but there's a clear distinction between a youth player and an established first team member.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
PlayerGamesGoalsAssists
Rashford (up to 20/21)2859356
Bale (up to 13/14)2928389
Robben (up to 08/09)2985855
Zidane (up to 98/99)3246136
Iniesta (up 09/10)3122457
Rooney (up to 08/09)31511459
Ronaldo (up to 08/09)32312375

Rashford is ahead of Robben, Zidane and Iniesta. And although he's behind Bale, Rooney and Ronaldo he's comparable enough to be in the conversation.
Brilliant so for you he compares favourably to all those players when they were of the same age and experience?

Thanks.

I respectfully suggest favourable comparisons to Salah, Henry, Iniesta, Rooney, Ronaldo and Zidane when they had the same footballing experience as Rashford in terms of games played, age or both is something I find absurd but I appreciate the contributions but I couldn’t disagree more.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
hahaha what have I lied about you absolute weapon, all I did was comment on your copy and paste stats for every mention of Rashford on here. Here we are sitting looking back at a shite season by our own standards when Rashford, the highest paid English player was basically given the keys to the attack and he majorly choked. he fecked us on repeat walking around the place in must win games and you’re wilfully ignoring that for whatever reason. You can’t handle that what people started saying where we’d end up half way through the season has actually come to pass. Second year running absolutely choking in the EL and you’re banging on like he’s one of the best players in the PL. Give over :lol:
That's 2 lies. Keep up.

Can you read? Answer is no. Not surprising.
 

Ixion

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
15,275
PlayerGamesGoalsAssists
Rashford (up to 20/21)2859356
Bale (up to 13/14)2928389
Robben (up to 08/09)2985855
Zidane (up to 98/99)3246136
Iniesta (up 09/10)3122457
Rooney (up to 08/09)31511459
Ronaldo (up to 08/09)32312375
Henry (up to 01/03)30811131

Rashford is ahead of Robben, Zidane, Iniesta and Henry. And although he's behind Bale, Rooney and Ronaldo he's comparable enough to be in the conversation.
Fair to say those players, bar maybe Bale, were playing in better sides than Rashford is.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
Brilliant so for you he compares favourably to all those players when they were of the same age and experience?

Thanks.

I respectfully suggest favourable comparisons to Salah, Henry, Iniesta, Rooney, Ronaldo and Zidane when they had the same footballing experience as Rashford in terms of games played, age or both is something I find absurd but I appreciate the contributions but I couldn’t disagree more.
You asked for it, and now you're shifting the goalposts to say it's irrelevant.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
But I’m asking you to compare favourably the player Rashford is now in his 24th year and after 300 games with someone else who is or went on to become a top player when they were of similar age or experience.

I don’t get why you don’t want people to think you’re comparing the players. That’s exactly what you’re supposed to do.

So Salah then? Or do you not want to use him? You’re not clear
Okay what player who went on to become a top player wasn’t as good as Rashford is now in the year they turned 24.

Appearances or age up to you. Comparing him unfavourably to others is apparently grossly unfair so who do some want to compare him favourably to given his age or experience?

Surely finding someone isn’t difficult. Pick anyone.
He is 23 ffs, completed season as a 23 year old. The way you keep saying he is 24 is laughable. He didn't play a single min of this season as a 24 year old, he completed season as a 23.

You can't even keep up with your own posts. It was appearances or age, now it's appearances and age.

Salah played around 300 games 251 games before he joined Liverpool and then around 50 games for Egypt.

I said I didn't compare Salah with Rashford, you asked me to name a player who went to become a great player who wasn't all that when they were 24 or played 300 games. It's not really difficult to understand.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
I asked for examples of players Rashford now is better than they were when they played around 300 games and/or were the same age.

I got Salah, Henry, Zidane, Iniesta, Rooney, Bale, Robben and Ronaldo.

I’m literally just stating a fact without passing comment. Which goalposts have I moved?
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
Adding in assists and looking at their per game records, it looks like this:

(Goals/assists per game over the last two seasons)

0.91 - Kane
0.76 - KDB
0.75 - Son
0.73 - M. Salah
0.69 - Rashford
0.62 - Mane

Also, we may add in Bruno (with half a season less played):

0.91 - Kane
0.81 - B. Fernandes
0.76 - KDB
0.75 - Son
0.73 - M. Salah
0.69 - Rashford
0.62 - Mane
Brilliant, shows how good his goal contributions are. Funny someone started all this with "even his goals are not good enough" :lol:
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
On the top of my head there is Aubameyang, Salah or Schweinsteiger. I would be tempted to mention Klose and Drogba.
There are so many, I posted the list lot of times. It's like people think this is FIFA or FM game where players stop developing when they are 23.

People have started to leave out his assist stats, increased his age, moved goal posts all the time. It's hilarious. I mean almost everyone agrees that he should improve at various aspects of his game but then you have few who think he is closer to championship player.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
9,531
I expect him to be a really really good player for us (which he already is) but I don't know why people are so hard on him and expect him to be an elite player like Rooney and Ronaldo were. His private life has no impact on his performances on the pitch.

That performance in the EL is something I've seen Giggs do quite a few times in his career (2007 FA cup final springs to mind) where just nothing comes off. It happens sometimes. On a side note, and without descending into Ole/Glazer bashing mood, he's kinda been run into the ground in the past two years; playing with that back injury against Wolves last season was just...:houllier:
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,824
I asked for examples of players Rashford now is better than they were when they played around 300 games and/or were the same age.

I got Salah, Henry, Zidane, Iniesta, Rooney, Bale, Robben and Ronaldo.

I’m literally just stating a fact without passing comment. Which goalposts have I moved?
You also forgot, right footed player, 1.8m height, English, name starting with M.

You can add few more filters.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
I asked for examples of players Rashford now is better than they played after around 300 games and/or were the same age.

I got Salah, Henry, Zidane, Iniesta, Rooney, Bale, Robben and Ronaldo.

I’m literally just stating a fact without passing comment. Which goalposts have I moved?
You need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.

The stats I posted are objective facts. The concept of Rashford's quality is a subjective opinion.

You've already made your mind up and you're sticking your beliefs with blind faith, despite being presented with irrefutable facts and figures. By defintion, the only poster being ****-like is quite obviously you.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
-Who does he compare favourably to?
“Him”
-Him?
“STOP MOVING THE GOALPOSTS!”

I don’t get why people’s own suggestions are infuriating to them.
 

Ixion

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
15,275
What the heck is going on in here now. Rashford's stats aren't as good as Salah or Ronaldo which proves he's shit. Something like that yeah?