I don’t think Bruno and Pogba have ever worked particularly well in the same lineup, and adding Ronaldo into that mix has made things even worse. Basically, we have 3 star players who don’t work very well together. Someone needs to be dropped, that’s what I believe he means.
Ole: “maybe something has to give”
- Thread starter Zoo
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That's exactly what it means. To me, it's obvious that it'll be Pogba. I'm a critic of Pogba but it's not even his performances that make him the obvious candidate. It's clear as day that he's not signing a new contract and will be off in the summer, unless we offer something obscene - which I doubt many think he deserves.
Simply put, why risk destabilising Bruno or Ronaldo in favour of a player who's likely going to leave? I'll be amazed if he's starts against Liverpool (or maybe even Atalanta)
Why are people talking like we were fantastic before Ronaldo came. The honest truth is we have been generally shit for a long long time. Results are just catching up.
If Pogba gets dropped, I think this will have an even worse effect on the team and its chances at creating opportunities. Unfortunately he's the most obvious candidate because neither Bruno nor CR7 are droppable.
Dropping creative players is the best idea. We should ask Fred if he has a twin
If we have to go 5 at the back to make it work then that in itself is indicative of Oles failure because he chose to continuously buy more and more attackers.
It's not a personnel problem anyway as no matter what 11 we play we are crap
It's not a personnel problem anyway as no matter what 11 we play we are crap
I don't agree.
We played the previous two games with McFred and we didn't win them either!!
David De Gea is the least of our concerns and not the reason behind any formation change. He’s one of our best players this season.
Long post coming, but there’s some constructive stuff in this thread.
I agree that having Bruno alongside two inside forwards isn’t particularly conducive. The centre of the park is very crowded and we have little wide. Greenwood would be a waste of time to be instructed to play wide and stretch the play. That’s not his game at all. He’s someone you always want playing fairly directly towards goal. We’re short of wingers, but I’d rather see any of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard or Dalot employed to generate width.
The priority has to be to sort out the defensive side of things though, so we do not need to score at least two goals every match. We’ve scored as many as City and Chelsea but have conceded ten to their three each. Right now we basically only defend with the back four, and the double pivot. Bruno is then channelling his inner teenage Rooney, whilst the three forwards amble about. That’s not a reliable system.
The situation isn’t irrecoverable for Ole, but either he or the next manager need to go back to basics a bit and focus on producing a solid foundation. That doesn’t mean picking a second string XI or opting for supposedly less flashy players, but actually setting up the team with the players having a shared mentality of prioritising the defensive shape, engaging in high workrate out of possession and taking pride in keeping a clean sheet. Conceding a goal needs to be as offensive to Bruno, Sancho and Greenwood, as it does to the centre backs and midfielders.
It’s not about the formation either. We saw the same thing happen with the 4-2-3-1 yesterday at Leicester and with the 4-3-3 against Villarreal. The front four are either not doing anything at all (Ronaldo, Sancho and Greenwood) or nothing constructive (Bruno) to help the rest of the team out of possession. All four of our full backs and three different midfielders in the double pivot have been exposed across these matches – and that’s not the fault of Pogba, Dalot et al. The opposition can too easily overload us with only the back four and double pivot playing a disciplined role off the ball. Defending needs to be a near entire team effort.
You can still play Bruno, Ronaldo and two of Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford together, but you cannot allow the four of them to play how they did against Villarreal and Leicester with these very attack minded roles. For me, Ronaldo is still the most reliable contributor in attack, so if you build around him and want to maximise his goals then the others need to have tailored roles with that in mind. Bruno needs to performing a more disciplined, recognisable midfield role, rather than playing as a second striker vacating the midfield. Our wide players need to work smartly off the ball and contribute to the team defensively. If primarily Rashford or Greenwood are stretching the play in behind at times, the other needs to be play a more supportive role linking with the rest of the midfield. That’s what I hoped Sancho would do. Right now, I’d favour Lingard’s off the ball movement and midfield workrate though. Regardless, the two players in these wider berths need to be willing to up their workrate and track back with real regularity or they aren’t going to be regular starters. Greenwood against Villarreal made Dalot look an utter mug. Both Sancho and Greenwood did little more yesterday against Leicester’s wing backs.
People talk a lot about Pogba’s and now Ronaldo’s failings, but it is time we asked more of Bruno and for him to do his share of adapting his game for the betterment of the team. I want to see Bruno playing a more disciplined midfield role, both with the ball and without it. He needs to recognise the times when the team just needs to either keep possession or its shape to regroup. He also needs to appreciate that forlornly chasing down the ball in isolation isn’t a virtue, as you leave gaps for the opposition to move into. Didn’t we learn that with Rooney? Bruno’s one of our players who needs to work smarter rather than harder. I hope it is not going to take a new manager to make it understood that we are really tactically limited if we can only field Bruno as a roaming #10
Against teams where we need more midfield combativity, you can add Fred in one the midfielder berths as a ball-winning midfielder and either drop one of Pogba or Bruno, or play Bruno as one of the front three.
The wide forwards I addressed in the response to the previous post, so won’t rehash again.
An interesting post, but I don’t quite agree with all of it. Going forward, we aren’t that bad, our xG compares well. We are joint second scorers in the league. It could be better, but a better foundation and team confidence would do some of that.
I agree that having Bruno alongside two inside forwards isn’t particularly conducive. The centre of the park is very crowded and we have little wide. Greenwood would be a waste of time to be instructed to play wide and stretch the play. That’s not his game at all. He’s someone you always want playing fairly directly towards goal. We’re short of wingers, but I’d rather see any of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard or Dalot employed to generate width.
The priority has to be to sort out the defensive side of things though, so we do not need to score at least two goals every match. We’ve scored as many as City and Chelsea but have conceded ten to their three each. Right now we basically only defend with the back four, and the double pivot. Bruno is then channelling his inner teenage Rooney, whilst the three forwards amble about. That’s not a reliable system.
The situation isn’t irrecoverable for Ole, but either he or the next manager need to go back to basics a bit and focus on producing a solid foundation. That doesn’t mean picking a second string XI or opting for supposedly less flashy players, but actually setting up the team with the players having a shared mentality of prioritising the defensive shape, engaging in high workrate out of possession and taking pride in keeping a clean sheet. Conceding a goal needs to be as offensive to Bruno, Sancho and Greenwood, as it does to the centre backs and midfielders.
I agree with this, but it doesn’t have to be a massive adjustment for Bruno. Modern elite football teams will be found out if they try to play a poacher focussed solely on goalscoring, a #10 given free reign, and two inside forwards who don’t track back. It’s not necessarily about the selection of individual players, but as much about their ability to perform specific roles and follow instruction.
It’s not about the formation either. We saw the same thing happen with the 4-2-3-1 yesterday at Leicester and with the 4-3-3 against Villarreal. The front four are either not doing anything at all (Ronaldo, Sancho and Greenwood) or nothing constructive (Bruno) to help the rest of the team out of possession. All four of our full backs and three different midfielders in the double pivot have been exposed across these matches – and that’s not the fault of Pogba, Dalot et al. The opposition can too easily overload us with only the back four and double pivot playing a disciplined role off the ball. Defending needs to be a near entire team effort.
You can still play Bruno, Ronaldo and two of Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford together, but you cannot allow the four of them to play how they did against Villarreal and Leicester with these very attack minded roles. For me, Ronaldo is still the most reliable contributor in attack, so if you build around him and want to maximise his goals then the others need to have tailored roles with that in mind. Bruno needs to performing a more disciplined, recognisable midfield role, rather than playing as a second striker vacating the midfield. Our wide players need to work smartly off the ball and contribute to the team defensively. If primarily Rashford or Greenwood are stretching the play in behind at times, the other needs to be play a more supportive role linking with the rest of the midfield. That’s what I hoped Sancho would do. Right now, I’d favour Lingard’s off the ball movement and midfield workrate though. Regardless, the two players in these wider berths need to be willing to up their workrate and track back with real regularity or they aren’t going to be regular starters. Greenwood against Villarreal made Dalot look an utter mug. Both Sancho and Greenwood did little more yesterday against Leicester’s wing backs.
Well, you can play them in a 4-3-3, and looking at our squad I would still advocate that is the system with the greatest potential. The elephant in the room though is Bruno Fernandes. A 4-3-3 has no room for a roaming #10. Against Villarreal we lined up in a 4-3-3, but still had Bruno roaming everywhere and had both wingers high up the pitch. Whilst Dalot had no support in the first half from Greenwood, he wasn’t helped by Bruno constantly vacating his midfield channel either.
People talk a lot about Pogba’s and now Ronaldo’s failings, but it is time we asked more of Bruno and for him to do his share of adapting his game for the betterment of the team. I want to see Bruno playing a more disciplined midfield role, both with the ball and without it. He needs to recognise the times when the team just needs to either keep possession or its shape to regroup. He also needs to appreciate that forlornly chasing down the ball in isolation isn’t a virtue, as you leave gaps for the opposition to move into. Didn’t we learn that with Rooney? Bruno’s one of our players who needs to work smarter rather than harder. I hope it is not going to take a new manager to make it understood that we are really tactically limited if we can only field Bruno as a roaming #10
Against teams where we need more midfield combativity, you can add Fred in one the midfielder berths as a ball-winning midfielder and either drop one of Pogba or Bruno, or play Bruno as one of the front three.
The wide forwards I addressed in the response to the previous post, so won’t rehash again.
Nonsense. If we want to progress playing the style of football Ole wants then he is absolutely a massive problem. There is a reason our performances, defending, results & everything else improved considerably with Henderson behind the defence last season because it enabled the team to play further up the pitch and compress the game. With DDG in goal we have to sit deeper which makes us much easier to play through. That’s without looking into how poor he is playing out from the back and how our defenders all look to their goalkeeper when set plays come into the box because they are used to goalkeepers that dominate.
Surely you must be wumming. Ole says “something has to give” and your analysis is we’re changing formations because of De Gea
I didn’t say we’re changing formations, you did. I made the comment that defending deep is the best option if we are to continue with De Gea in goal. Because it is.Surely you must be wumming. Ole says “something has to give” and your analysis is we’re changing formations because of De Gea
My hat’s off to you fella. You ticked all my boxes and then went on to educate me to a couple of things I hadn’t fully considered there.
A 4-3-3 could possibly work but not with Pogba (and Bruno) as many want.
Fred and and a more disciplined Bruno ahead of Matic or McTominay. Intention to win the ball high and get it to the forwards quickly.
Fred and and a more disciplined Bruno ahead of Matic or McTominay. Intention to win the ball high and get it to the forwards quickly.
There seems to be chatter that we're going to drop some of our attackers for more harder working players etc. The likes of Sancho, Bruno, Greenwood, Ronaldo and Pogba mentioned by Neville.
Such bloody basic shit if we go down that route. We'll just end up not being able to score and still concede chances, you can see it coming a mile off.
Such bloody basic shit if we go down that route. We'll just end up not being able to score and still concede chances, you can see it coming a mile off.
I agree with you about the way we play but to me it is a coaching problem in that we have no structure or do not seem to have any structure. Greenwood is not going to defend period. Or Ole so far has not been able to do so. Martial for all his faults when he has played has defended better than Greenwood. If we get a structured way of playing and passing and movement off the ball like most other teams do then we would do much better. I do not think Bruno is going to ignore the instructions of Ole and go wandering about game after game. Yesterday we were getting over run in midfield all the time, yet no change in the way we play.
Ah. Where is Fellaini when you need him? Jones and Mata we kept them. We should have kept him for this day too.
De Gea is the least of our concerns right now and has nothing to do with what Ole said, which is what this thread is about.
To be honest he should do and it’s what a top coach would do with this squad. Making it work is a different matter.
I can see him trying 3 at the back. Get numbers through the middle
He’s not the least of our concerns at all, in fact he is a massive concern, but while a couple of standard saves is all it takes to pull the wool over peoples eyes nothing will improve.
Agreed. If you had McFred in the pivot yesterday, we would have been just as exposed and even more stuck for ball progression. It’s too reductive to just making it a matter of personnel.
I think we will move to a genuine 4-3-3 with one of bruno or pogba being dropped thats my feeling of what ole meant by somethings gotta give.
The problem when we play 4-2-3-1 we give a licence to the fullbacks to bomb on to provide width to stretch the opposition leaving spaces in the channels, to combat it when we lose the ball we tend to press the wide areas to try and force the opposition to go through the middle where our double pivot goes in and wins the ball back or at the very least slows the attack down to give us a chance to get back into shape. With Fred and mctom it can work quite well, with matic and pogba its a car crash there lack of intensity off the ball means our mid press doesn't work and our game plan falls apart.
The problem is of course that mcfred gives us more control and stability but we lose the creative element and can end looking toothless and ponderous, but take either of them out and our mid press falls apart and we concede too many chances.
I think we may end up in a proper 4-3-3 with one pivot DM and two number 8's with the full backs in a less attacking role and staying behind the ball more with the two number 8's being asked to push into the channels to help create overloads in the wide areas. I think what we will find is when we play this way, we will play with a much more intense higher press with the front 3 and 2 number 8's all pressing aggressively with the dm and full backs pushing in to block passing lanes either forcing mistakes or forcing the other team to go long.
We saw it in patches against villareal and had some Good spells in that match but we couldn't keep it up due to some individuals not doing there job correctly (pogba, dalot and too a lesser extent bruno). However get the right personnel in the right places its got potential.
Weather Ole will actually implement it as our go too formation going forward and weather its gonna be enough to get our season back on track only time will tell.
The problem when we play 4-2-3-1 we give a licence to the fullbacks to bomb on to provide width to stretch the opposition leaving spaces in the channels, to combat it when we lose the ball we tend to press the wide areas to try and force the opposition to go through the middle where our double pivot goes in and wins the ball back or at the very least slows the attack down to give us a chance to get back into shape. With Fred and mctom it can work quite well, with matic and pogba its a car crash there lack of intensity off the ball means our mid press doesn't work and our game plan falls apart.
The problem is of course that mcfred gives us more control and stability but we lose the creative element and can end looking toothless and ponderous, but take either of them out and our mid press falls apart and we concede too many chances.
I think we may end up in a proper 4-3-3 with one pivot DM and two number 8's with the full backs in a less attacking role and staying behind the ball more with the two number 8's being asked to push into the channels to help create overloads in the wide areas. I think what we will find is when we play this way, we will play with a much more intense higher press with the front 3 and 2 number 8's all pressing aggressively with the dm and full backs pushing in to block passing lanes either forcing mistakes or forcing the other team to go long.
We saw it in patches against villareal and had some Good spells in that match but we couldn't keep it up due to some individuals not doing there job correctly (pogba, dalot and too a lesser extent bruno). However get the right personnel in the right places its got potential.
Weather Ole will actually implement it as our go too formation going forward and weather its gonna be enough to get our season back on track only time will tell.
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Or maybe something has to give De Beek a chance?
When he says ‘something has to give’, it could be a multitude of things. He might be changing the personnel, changing the tactics, sacking his coaching staff, the scouts, be a bit stricter in his man-management etc. Heck, unlikely as it might be, he might be planning his resignation, as while he is not a good enough manager for us, one thing that cannot be denied is that he loves the club.
Reading the post-match press conference transcript again though, I’m interpreting it as he’s going to go a bit more conservative from here on in and play with runners on the counter, back to the tactics from 2019. A replica of Tuchel’s Chelsea, essentially. The fixture list until December is probably giving him even more conviction to go down this route. As such, I think we’ll largely be looking like this until December bar the Watford game:
DDG
Varane Maguire Shaw
AWB McTominay Fred Telles
Bruno
Ronaldo Rashford
I don’t know about you, but if this is the team for the foreseeable, it will make our fanbase even more despondent than it already is. We have Ronaldo, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Cavani, Greenwood, Pogba, Lingard, Donny, Mata and Martial competing for 4 forward positions. Meanwhile, the only solution our manager can come up with to remedy a frankly disgraceful run of form since signing the greatest player of all time is the old ‘more legs’ cliche. He’s blessed with more attacking talent than any manager in the world bar Pochettino, and this is how he’s managing them.
Also, what was asking the journalist “what do we need” about? Sad as it is, that sounds like an admission of defeat. I really do not know what I am doing. That after querying to himself “more legs?” as well. Press conferences can’t make a game better, but it can make it worse, and his gormlessness yesterday after getting battered exacerbated it imo.
He is a club legend and I’m not buying this notion that him being a poor manager tarnishes his legacy as a player. However, I just do not see how he turns this around, and ‘more legs’ and conservation definitively isn’t the way. In previous seasons, there would be a game he wins which catalyses a winning run. This time, he already used up his luck at the start of the season. How we got 8 points from Saints, Wolves, West Ham and Everton is an absolute mystery, when realistically we deserved 1 at most.
I just fret that by the time the fools upstairs pull the trigger, it will already be too late. The top 3, Brighton, West Ham, Brentford, Spurs and Everton have all been far better based on quality of football this season. Crazy as it sounds, I fear that by that time Christmas comes, we’ll be cut too far adrift to even make top 4. The new manager cannot be thrown into a situation where his only way to have a successful first season is by winning the CL at all costs.
Reading the post-match press conference transcript again though, I’m interpreting it as he’s going to go a bit more conservative from here on in and play with runners on the counter, back to the tactics from 2019. A replica of Tuchel’s Chelsea, essentially. The fixture list until December is probably giving him even more conviction to go down this route. As such, I think we’ll largely be looking like this until December bar the Watford game:
DDG
Varane Maguire Shaw
AWB McTominay Fred Telles
Bruno
Ronaldo Rashford
I don’t know about you, but if this is the team for the foreseeable, it will make our fanbase even more despondent than it already is. We have Ronaldo, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Cavani, Greenwood, Pogba, Lingard, Donny, Mata and Martial competing for 4 forward positions. Meanwhile, the only solution our manager can come up with to remedy a frankly disgraceful run of form since signing the greatest player of all time is the old ‘more legs’ cliche. He’s blessed with more attacking talent than any manager in the world bar Pochettino, and this is how he’s managing them.
Also, what was asking the journalist “what do we need” about? Sad as it is, that sounds like an admission of defeat. I really do not know what I am doing. That after querying to himself “more legs?” as well. Press conferences can’t make a game better, but it can make it worse, and his gormlessness yesterday after getting battered exacerbated it imo.
He is a club legend and I’m not buying this notion that him being a poor manager tarnishes his legacy as a player. However, I just do not see how he turns this around, and ‘more legs’ and conservation definitively isn’t the way. In previous seasons, there would be a game he wins which catalyses a winning run. This time, he already used up his luck at the start of the season. How we got 8 points from Saints, Wolves, West Ham and Everton is an absolute mystery, when realistically we deserved 1 at most.
I just fret that by the time the fools upstairs pull the trigger, it will already be too late. The top 3, Brighton, West Ham, Brentford, Spurs and Everton have all been far better based on quality of football this season. Crazy as it sounds, I fear that by that time Christmas comes, we’ll be cut too far adrift to even make top 4. The new manager cannot be thrown into a situation where his only way to have a successful first season is by winning the CL at all costs.
He’s been our best player this season, according to many. Even Kasper Schmeichel praised him yesterday. Nobody in the fans or the media is even debating that he’s the number one keeper this season.
Why are you even mentioning him in this thread that has nothing to do with him? If he’s such a concern to you, there’s a thread for him. You could see who else is concerned there
I mean, this is one of the many Ole threads and one of his jobs is team selection, so it is relevant. Ultimately praising a goalkeeper that was at fault for at least two goals in one game shows our standards are pretty dreadful but if people want to kid themselves that he has been our best player this season (not even close, btw) then I’d ask them to introduce me to their drug dealer.He’s been our best player this season, according to many. Even Kasper Schmeichel praised him yesterday. Nobody in the fans or the media is even debating that he’s the number one keeper this season.
Why are you even mentioning him in this thread that has nothing to do with him? If he’s such a concern to you, there’s a thread for him. You could see who else is concerned there
It’s not just about dropping creative players it’s about having a well balanced team between creative and hardworking. You were also down on Rashford last season while he was clearly our second most creative player. I was down on him because he wasn’t working hard enough and walking around off the ball. Then we go and sign Ronaldo and I say I don’t want it either because we will have 3 or 4 players walking around huffing and puffing in a disorganised way and it’ll be totally shit when it doesn’t come off. That’s what we have now. If we had 2 players as relentless as fred we wouldn’t have lost the midfield battle so often this season
People get their wish “Pogba and a dm (who played way better than him yesterday) and still some of you don’t get it. How many “creative” players did leicester have yesterday? 2/3 with a hardworking support. We have 5 caught up the pitch who won’t press, win the ball or reliably track back. It’s a disaster.
When is the penny going to drop that it’s not the hard working players fault, who take all the abuse, that we are shit? They do their job. They are left hung out to dry by players who won’t consistently press and defend and don’t create enough to kill worse teams off either. We have possession, we give the attackers the ball over and over and it keeps coming back at us so we commit more and more forward to compensate and we get cut through. That’s what’s wrong with this team.
I feel like I’m going crazy saying it over the last few years. It’s a lack of aggression, belief and a lack of workrate from the team that’s really holding us back. We are paying our attack world class money and we mustered up one goal against Everton and Villa at home.
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We have to defend deeper because Maguire is slower than my grandma! De Gea is no where near our problem. Overrated British players like AWB and Maguire are our weakest link in defense. One too slow and the other one sleeping very often.
Strange how we manage to defend higher when we changed goalkeeper last season isn’t it? Equally strange how Maguire excelled in a Leicester team under Rodgers playing a high line in front of an offensive goalkeeper. Same in the England team in front of Pickford on the few occasions Southgate has let them attack teams. But yes, it’s Maguire being slow that’s the problem.
Really? Apart from perhaps Ronaldo and Pogba, I see no reason a top coach wouldn't get these players more defensively aware. The two that probably can't are Pogba and Ronaldo, because they're either not mobile enough to shield the defence or press the opposition well, respectively.
He'll bring in McFred again I expect. Maybe Lingard. The big question will be Cavani for Ronaldo. If he goes to three at the back and ditches his wingers, say 532 formation, then I think it'll be the final nail in his coffin, as the likes of Sancho and Rashford won't suit any other position. Plus Greenwood has been electric coming in from the right.
In answer to your point though, the best coach, Pep Guardiola, wouldn't do what you're suggesting. There's no question this team should be Rolls Royce on the pitch.
That would be the most cowardly approach. Again, won't be surprised because it's Ole and I can see that happening.
We lack control in midfield and with Fred and McT we won't ever get it. He has to bring Matic, Donny and Pogba as a midfield 3.
Against Liverpool, just bench Ronaldo and Sancho. Play Martial, Rashford and Elanga. Hit them with pace and they shouldn't even know what hit them. Feck off, I can't stand another Liverpool title. I don't care what formation we play against them.
The ideal thing to do is to put Matic as the sole holder in front of the backline, Fred or VDB in front of him, with Bruno next to either, but let him roam more vertically, so essentially he'll cover his position and a little more in forward areas to support the striker(to allow Bruno to be Bruno), but never completely vacate his position.
It seems to create the most ideal scenario for stopping the absence of a midfield, in my opinion.
Ole's interim was shaped around something similar, so his abandonment in favour of shoehorning players into roles has been bizarre.
It seems to create the most ideal scenario for stopping the absence of a midfield, in my opinion.
Ole's interim was shaped around something similar, so his abandonment in favour of shoehorning players into roles has been bizarre.
We have been piss poor for a long time now. Ole has had both time and resources to fix this but we are still struggling to break down teams who lie deep and break fast. Nothing has changed.
Yeah and the scousers & City will just plough through us trying to park the midfield bus
I expect he was talking about the lineup, specifically Pogba. We *could* play 433 with McT, Bruno and Pogba, but that would require Bruno to sacrifice too much. I just don't see how you justify sacrificing Bruno playing as a no.10 in order to play Pogba, he doesn't do enough. Maybe in the best team Pogba can shine, but not in ours, we're outclassed in midfield by everyone.
Because they desparate to shift focus on anyone and anything as a explaination why we are in this position.
At Leicester Concedng 60 goals and 48 is not very impressive.
And Rodgers joined in Feb 2019.Played few months under him. 9 Pl games, conceding 9 goals
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Yeah but we also played with Bruno and Pogba in all of those games. Those two will be Sven's Lampard & Gerrard.
I'm also concerned that we're going to blindly play Ronaldo week in, week out, regardless of form or whether he is the best option. Personally, I think Cavani is probably a better all-round option to start games, with Ronaldo getting the last half hour
Cavani's been available for 4/11 match day squads so far. Good luck with that.
Eh we did not play Pogba against Everton.
At this stage it doesn't matter who Ole plays. The team isn't playing well no matter the combination