Those mystery 4/5 games in the middle of LVG's tenure? Still the best we've played since prime SAF. I remember against Liverpool they couldn't get the ball off us then in a flash we had it back again, met with groans from the Liverpool fans, felt great! And the thrashing of City aswell.
What's wrong with counter attacking football?
- Thread starter UpWithRivers
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I don't know and Ronaldo isn't helping.
I agree with what's been said. You simply can't rely on counters, Ole found this out the hard way. It's a style of play that relies on physical traits rather than technical quality and can only get you so far.
Tonight my interpretation of our tactics was that we wanted to coax then into pressing us so we could find them quick transitions, but they didn't really bite and when they did press they were organised enough to restrict us. We saw Casemiro sitting and Eriksen and Fred were so far up the pitch when we were playing out from the back. It was a mess reminiscent of the Brighton and Brentford games with no options to progress the ball forwards. Luckily Sociedad were rubbish or we would have been in the wrong end of a poor scoreline once again. But it is clear to me that we're not looking to play a possession game or dominate the ball.
To anybody that saw Ajax regularly, is this how ETH always plays? I thought from reading opinions on here that we were getting a Klopp/Pep hybrid. Hopefully there's more to come and we can show much more quality.
Tonight my interpretation of our tactics was that we wanted to coax then into pressing us so we could find them quick transitions, but they didn't really bite and when they did press they were organised enough to restrict us. We saw Casemiro sitting and Eriksen and Fred were so far up the pitch when we were playing out from the back. It was a mess reminiscent of the Brighton and Brentford games with no options to progress the ball forwards. Luckily Sociedad were rubbish or we would have been in the wrong end of a poor scoreline once again. But it is clear to me that we're not looking to play a possession game or dominate the ball.
To anybody that saw Ajax regularly, is this how ETH always plays? I thought from reading opinions on here that we were getting a Klopp/Pep hybrid. Hopefully there's more to come and we can show much more quality.
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with counter attacking football. If you have legs up front you are absolute fools if you don't do it. Incisive passes through an exposed defence are the quickest way to goal, and the times when you have by far the most space.
The problem comes when you are one dimensional and struggle to build penetrative attacks in any other way. Mainly because counterattacking is only one possible phase of play and you need some help from the opponent. If they shut you down because they don't need to win the game and you do, you're in a lot of trouble if the counter is your hope.
I think a top side needs a bit of everything. You can have an identifiable style, a preferred method of play but if you're going to be a complete and dominant side you have to carry multiple threats.
The problem comes when you are one dimensional and struggle to build penetrative attacks in any other way. Mainly because counterattacking is only one possible phase of play and you need some help from the opponent. If they shut you down because they don't need to win the game and you do, you're in a lot of trouble if the counter is your hope.
I think a top side needs a bit of everything. You can have an identifiable style, a preferred method of play but if you're going to be a complete and dominant side you have to carry multiple threats.
The way we did it was boring, I ended up half rooting for the other team as they were the ones showing the drive and passion.
I'm not sure it's possible to entertain stadiums with counter attacking football.
I'm not sure it's possible to entertain stadiums with counter attacking football.
I have the same question..
I see that a bad result has made our entire way of playing a problem.
By all accounts, he realised 2 games in that getting this lot to play possession football was hopeless so he played to their strengths.
Of course it is. Teams have won league titles with it. Problem is that we're not that good at it unless we have our best 11 because our squad is so screwed up.
Last time a counter attacking team won the Premier League was in 2017. The current league is dominated by teams who play on front foot, high pressing or possession based. Football moved on. You need to be good with the ball to win the major trophies. Counter attacking is nice as an option to have but as long as managers like Pep are around in England you won't win shit by being a defensive pragmatic team whose only way of scoring goals is quick transitions.
If Ten Hag gave up on applying possession based style because of only 2 games in the season then I'm sorry, he's a coward. You can't walk in a team who has been playing shit football for years and expect them to play like prime Barca once you decide to shift style to ball controlling and retention. Switching to parking the bus tactics doesn't help the team. It just gives us short term results before everything turns to shit again eventually.
Just be brave enough and play your own style while enduring the early pain till the players get used to it.
Exactly. Be brave and let the team get used to your style. Why did we remove ole at all if we wanted to continue to play on the counter attack? We knew the maximum we could reach was 2nd place that way, which was evident under mourinho too( both of which featured Liverpool being hit by injuries and De Gea using up whatever talent he had)
If he is fearful of job security, then he is already a failure. Implement your style and show the exit door to players who don’t fit it.
I don’t care how we play as long as we are a goal threat and show grit and determination, today we were not a goal threat.
If you play with a 9 on an island then it is just cowardly football but if you break out and counter with 4 or 5 guys sprinting into space and occupying dangerous positions in the opposite penalty area then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that playing style. Again today that was not happening. The only person in the right area was Ronaldo and that was only when he didn’t drop down to touch the ball. I expected Bruno to help him out in the penalty that didn’t happen because he replaced Eriksen. Take note Ten Hag that Bruno can’t play like Eriksen next game...
If you play with a 9 on an island then it is just cowardly football but if you break out and counter with 4 or 5 guys sprinting into space and occupying dangerous positions in the opposite penalty area then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that playing style. Again today that was not happening. The only person in the right area was Ronaldo and that was only when he didn’t drop down to touch the ball. I expected Bruno to help him out in the penalty that didn’t happen because he replaced Eriksen. Take note Ten Hag that Bruno can’t play like Eriksen next game...
Not at all. They pressed hard in 2018/2019 and last year they played a diamond in defence basically with Lisandro last man back and Blind and Timber as very good passers either side of him and Mazraoui sprinting up the half space with Antony wide. So basically their back 3 (in possession, out of possession Mazraoui played like a normal right back) were all comfortable playing short passes and 1-2s and holding on to it under pressure.
The only really similar thing we've seen so far is that the 2018/2019 team played with proper wingers like we do, and the fullbacks tuck in a lot because the wingers are so wide. Also one striker up top alone. Nothing else is particularly similar yet.
Its easy to try & be brave.... online. But when you have to manage the expectations of millions, pragmatism luckily rules. Life isn't about binary choices.
Then good luck on his job hunt after December then. Tuchel is available as well.
Yes even against weak teams we seem to be holding on for dear life in the final few minutes.
Counter attacking football like Leicester did when they won the league, is a way for weaker sides to give themselves a better chance against stronger sides. They decide they cannot win the midfield battle and control the ball, so they give it up, soak up the attack, and hit them after when they are more open.
Counter attacking is a tool for any team, but playing purely counter attacking football is not a good idea for a team trying to become a top side.
Counter attacking is a tool for any team, but playing purely counter attacking football is not a good idea for a team trying to become a top side.
Football fans are such reactionary headbangers. Drops Maguire and Ronaldo, but doesn't get us playing EXACTLY how you want after 6 games, so let's call him a coward? FFS.
Also, what the hell are you watching that makes you call what we have been playing as "parking the bus"? Hilariously awful observation. Makes me wonder if you have eyes.
Finally, I will point to the mood after Brighton and Brentford vs the mood post Arsenal. Ten Hags job is to win. People are happier when he wins. It's really not that hard to understand why he would progressively build the blocks towards his end game rather than rigidly insist on playing one set way even though he doesn't have the GK, RB, DLP and CF he needs for it. THAT would be cowardly.
It's incredible isn't it. EtH said from the start that he has a clear way he wants us to play, it will take us a while to get there, but in the meantime we have to find a way to win.
He's been doing just that, my goodness, fans can be so fickle.
Last night we were not trying to sit back and play on the counter, we were camped for most of the first half in their half, but the players we had on continually messed up the final pass or the final shot. That's not a tactic. How idiotic does one have to be not to see that?
Absolutely. We were sometimes at our most threatening in the early to mid 90s when the other team had a corner because the moment Schmeichel boomed “KEEPER’S”, Kanchelskis and Giggs bombed down the wings for the inevitable long throw from Pete.
Norwich (a) in the first Premier League season is a great example of our counter attacking style.
Besides, when the other team attack, what’s wrong with a fast break when you get the ball? Why is it suddenly frowned upon?
That poster is one of the most negative, irrational, and emotional on the Caf. They took it personally after Mourinho was fired and never recovered emotionally, so his sole purpose is to find faults with any future manager and incessantly harp on them.
If you go watch the LVG games while with us, we passed it sideways 10 times before passing the ball forward only for LVG to write on to his tablet/notepad debating on how much the passing forward player would be fined for doing so.
I use them games when I am struggling to sleep.
I'm clearly replying on the poster saying Ten Hag realized this group can't play possession football so decided to switch to this style, that if that's the case then he's a coward indeed, that's just an assumption based on what the poster I replying on was saying, but I'm the one who has no eyes indeed.
Finally, neither of what you said I what I'm saying. You are just someone like a lot of here, memorize some cool phrases and throw them into every conversation then go to your bed thinking you have done a great job and posted a creative post that's to be all. No one said he should play exactly the way I want. What I'm saying is he needs to start applying his style and endure that the early games will have a lot of pain. No one expects us to be prime Barca by Sep, but we should already be seeing signs of what style he is supposed to implement. If you see it, cool, I have no problem. For the moment, though, I see nothing regarding our style of play to get impressed about, or to tell myself "yeah, we are going somewhere with that".
The Liverpool and Arsenal games were great. He needs to find a good play style against minnows though. While winning games are important, if you aren't building something through them it will jus the like the previous managers, short term results that will go down eventually. I don't want Ten Hag to be like that. He should be different.
Football moved on from Fergie days. United need to move on, too, that's if you want to return to the top one day.
Right. Do YOu think they will sack him just because he is being pragmatic? That makes no sense.
And Tuchel? No club owner/chairman of any top 5 clubs will touch him with a 10foot pole at this moment.
In a nutshell, nothing. As far as I'm concerned it's a tool in the toolbox and has been proven consistently to be an effective and exciting approach historically and is definitely useful in certain game situations or in certain games for any team.
Being pragmatic may keep him in the job for few months but if he doesn't start delivering what he was hired for then its inevitable that he is going to get sacked.
No one here is frowning upon counter attacking. Even Guardiola's and Klopp's team counter attack. But when it's the only thing that we do, we cannot compete for league titles anymore. Plenty of teams are happy to take a point against us by giving us no space to counter.
Besides we are not even good at counter attacking anymore, we had to hold on desperately against Leicester and Southampton in the end. Even against Arsenal, most of the time there was no threat of us countering.
The OP is confusing counter attacking football with parking the bus football. Mostly we do the latter and that's a problem.
There's nothing wrong with it if it's executed well.
However, it's most commonly employed, as a go-to tactic, by underdogs.
And - no - United under Fergie weren't a "counter attacking" team. We had far more strings to play on than a typical, traditional, actual counter attacking team. *
* Which, to me, would be a team that mainly (or almost exclusively) relies on hitting the opponent on the counter to score goals.
However, it's most commonly employed, as a go-to tactic, by underdogs.
And - no - United under Fergie weren't a "counter attacking" team. We had far more strings to play on than a typical, traditional, actual counter attacking team. *
* Which, to me, would be a team that mainly (or almost exclusively) relies on hitting the opponent on the counter to score goals.
Delivering what? A specific style of play?
They just spend 200+million quid, the most they have ever invested in a transfer window. So I doubt he is going anywhere in the next couple of years.
Nobody frowns upon this but idiots. Guardiola certainly doesn't. I can guarantee that every possession team will try to score on a fast break if the opportunity arises. It's only a problem when that's the only way you can score, because once you're good enough most opponents will just sit in a low block to stop you from doing it, which is the entire point of adopting a possession philosophy, because otherwise it will always be a struggle to beat teams employing a low block.
Number of CL trophies for Man City since they hired Pep in 2016: 0
Number of CL trophies won by sides employing counter attacking tactics: 5
If you go back further, you’ll see that teams that counter attack win the CL even more frequently. Now, these teams also need to be able to break down other counter attacking sides, but the very nature of possession football is that you need a very high line. You need to create 3v2s and 2v1s everywhere around the pitch. The fact remains that when there is a numerical advantage on one side of the pitch, you have a disadvantage in other areas. Top, world class players can easily exploit this, like Real Madrid. Even top defenders have issues with 3v2s and 2v1s in counter attack.
The only true tiki taka side to win the CL consistently in modern times was Pep’s Barcelona sides, and they had Messi…. So, yeah.
I'd presume the other poster wants a clear progression in being able to control games and pin teams back consistently with recycled possession resulting in waves of attacks and good pressing to help pin teams back.
Our pressing has been pretty poor so far(worse than our play on the ball IMO), and there's still ways to go for our possession game.
That said, it is very early, but if we look like this after 6 months, I'd be a bit concerned.
I agree with this. Question, do you think that Man City has a hard time in the latter stages of the CL and against top teams who sit back because their defense is not used to be under pressure?
Which counter attacking teams won the cl?
What are these 5 teams? Because Real Madrid wasn't a counter attacking team.
Any team can counter attack when they get the ball on fast transition. That doesn't make them counter attacking one.
Zidane's Madrid were playing on front foot and their style was dependent on using flanks and crossing.
As said multiple times. Counters are fine. The problem is when that's the only thing you can do.
Again, this is not true. People on here have the wrong interpretation of what a counter attacking team is. People would probably label Klopp's Liverpool a counter attacking team, but they are not. They seek to dominate the ball and pin teams back in the big games. They're the only team in the Prem the past 3-4 years that play proactively and go toe-to-toe vs Pep's City.
No one is here saying that counter attacking shouldn't be in your arsenal at all.
But if it's your main way of scoring goals/attacking, your ceiling is limited.
And basically every team since Pep's Barcelona that won the CL bar 1-2 anomalies were very good or even excellent possession teams. Most of the teams were also teams that pressed high up the field.
2012 Chelsea: Not great in possession/sat in a low back
2013 Bayern: Excellent in possession/pressed high
2014 Real Madrid: Very good in possession/mid press
2015 Barcelona: Excellent in possession/pressed high
2016-2018 Real Madrid: Excellent in possession/mid press
2019 Liverpool: Very good in possession/pressed high
2020 Bayern: Excellent in possession/pressed high
2021 Chelsea: Good in possession/pressed high
2022 Real Madrid: very good in possession/mid press
So the only team there that was a true counter attacking side was Chelsea and they fluked their win in 2012. They got dominated vs Barcelona and Bayern. I wouldn't consider Chelsea in 2020 a counter attacking team, but for argument's sake we can do that. That's only 2 teams in the past decade that were 'counter attacking' sides.
You need to be a very good side in possession to win the CL. You can't be much better without the ball than with it.
Klopp and Pep are the best managers in the world. They'd win the league most times where ever they were. Simeone won La Liga with a defensive team despite being weaker than Barca and Real. Conte won Serie A with counter attacking.
The problem is that many of our players are no good at it. Telling McFred and Rashford to try and be possession focused players is as pointless as trying to turn them into golfers. He could keep playing possession and hope some of them get it but we'd probably finish 10th. Better to be pragmatic, play to our strengths for now, replace the players who aren't good enough to do what he wants and move to what ETH wants gradually.
I think you’re being a bit too demanding here.
Frankly, we don’t have the squad to implement tiki taka right now. Fred and Scotty are way too poor as passers to execute that system. Watch Mctominay as he plays… very rarely can he play a one touch pass, it’s usually 2-3 touches. Even worse, Fred thinks he can play one touch passes, but he’s just too inaccurate.
Casemiro and Eriksen… maybe. But Casemiro needs time to gel. Our FBs aren’t good enough yet to play possession. Malarcia and Dalot have been very good, but they are miles away from Cancelo/Walker or TAA/Robertson.
The difference will come when we play the minnows. Casemiro will snuff out attacks and play to Eriksen and Bruno, will recycle possession quickly. But this will take time to install.
I don’t think we’ll ever be a free flowing Pep-like side. That’s fine with me. I’d rather be a Real-style side that can play multiple ways rather than pure tiki taka.
We are talking about the premier league though, who brought Serie A or LA Liga in this? The league we are competing in are dominated by teams who either retain possession or high press.
These players have been playing under defensive managers for years. Of course they won't be good at possession or retaining ball from the get go. That's actually Ten Hag's job, to coach these players to be better at ball possession, not to walk in and buy a full new team who can do it.
There is no counter attack if there is no attack. What's wrong with counter attack is that most big teams can't do it vs most other teams because most other teams are waiting for the big team to attack