Kevin De Bruyne

[Pintu]

What? The time period where English teams were the best in Europe, you mean? When there was an English side in a European final from 2005 until 2012? That famous weaker and poorer league? OK, mate.

The PL was strong back then but the clubs weren’t that much stronger than the best teams in Europe… Right now we have 3 English clubs in the top 4 of Uefa’s 5-year ranking. We’ve never seen this before.

The only reason your series doesn’t apply to this period is United missing the EL final in 2020 against Sevilla in a game we deserved to win… When looking closer at that period we find Liverpool failing group stage behind Lyon and Fiorentina, and we see Arsenal getting trashed by Barcelona, or Spurs trashed by Madrid… It’s not that much different from now. The domination is much more obvious now than ever before.

 

[Zehner]

I don't take offense; if you genuinely believe in your position, then I can't say more than that, my thought was you were arguing in bad faith knowing full well how things are across the continent and in the league, but your stance differs from that, so you weren't arguing in bad faith.

I have no hesitation in calling any period great, good, average or poor, no matter who carries the torch during that period of time.

Numerous teams are a shadow of themselves and that's in and of themselves and their own internal struggles and mishaps (ageing players; failing to replace players; managing or coaching upheaval; burnout; end of cycles; gone stale and so on and so forth) it means a lot when those are the powerhouses who were making competition what it was.

You say others then enter the fold and make this immaterial, whilst citing the likes of a really average PSG and City side as well as a Liverpool team who really looked the part for a short period of time. By your belief, in linear improvement and development, those that come after what went before, simply take all the good and leave the bad whilst enhacing those positives. I don't know how you conclude such a thing has happened - it's not evidenced by the football played in the CL, so where or how do those conclusions get drawn for you?

But yeah, this is pretty redundant as we're miles apart on this, but one of countless examples I'd give is I'd readily expect the peak Atletico sides to beat City and give Liverpool an absolute nightmare of a game (or 2 legs) both at their primes whatever you perceive them to be. That's one of many obstacles that no longer there for teams to face, and they were one of many others just a few years ago.

That's the thing. It is not possible that every team is average. And if I have to guess whether the standard of football across all teams and leagues just magically dropped off a cliff or the assessment of fans who would rather see other teams on top is off then I'm pretty sure which explanation sounds more plausible to me. And to be honest, all that is backed up by the eye test. With the innovations around 2008/2009, football changed drastically and became much more organized. And today's top teams look much more well drilled, whether it is Liverpool, City, Bayern or whichever one you want to choose. The level of cohesivenes and organization s is completely different to the 00s and especially the EPL where football was very vertical and based on individual quality. Which is why they got destroyed by pressing teams that had zero right to beat them before the English teams eventually started to adapt around 2016/17.

I mean, watch a game of the 00s and how often they gave away possession, how many crosses and long balls they played, how open the midfield was, etc. and compare this with even a struggling top team in 2022/23. There are lightyears inbetween.

Still going around the points total loops. Amazing.

Not going to stop making a legit argument just because you post a laughing emoji. I mean, a higher points total literally means that the team achieved better results. No kind of mental gymnastics can explain how a team that got less points had a more dominant season. The stuff you have to argue here

 

[Righteous Steps]

Since we're doing 5 year club averages. Let's do players as well. No cherry picking, this is pretty much any of the players' best 5 successive years in terms of output:

50+ assists and 80+ goal contributions total, only this side of the century (source: transfermarkt):

De Bruyne	2016-21	152 games	35 goals (4 pens)	69 assists	104 contributions	466 team goals (22,31%)
Fabregas	2006-11	144 games	30 goals (3 pens)	69 assists	99 contributions	360 team goals (27,50%)
Eriksen	2014-19	181 games	42 goals (0 pens)	56 assists	96 contributions	354 team goals (27,11%)
D. Silva	2011-16	151 games	31 goals (0 pens)	60 assists	91 contributions	415 team goals (21,92%)
Henry	2001-06	171 games	130 goals (17 pens)	59 assists	189 contributions	392 team goals (48,21%)
Salah	2017-22	180 games	118 goals (18 pens)	50 assists	168 contributions	420 team goals (40,00%)
Lampard	2005-10	169 games	71 goals (23 pens)	52 assists	123 contributions	372 team goals (33,06%)
van Persie	2008-13	145 games	94 goals (9 pens)	52 assists	146 contributions	383 team goals (38,12%)
Young	2007-12	169 games	33 goals (5 pens)	53 assists	86 contributions	314 team goals (27,38%)
Özil	2013-18	142 games	27 goals (0 pens)	54 assists	81 contributions	355 team goals (22,82%)
Suarez*	2011-14	110 games	69 goals (0 pens)	39 assists	108 contributions	278 team goals (38,85%)

* would probably easily have made 50 if he'd stayed for 5 seasons instead of 3,5.

Some other names with a decent amount of assists and a good amount of goals:
40-50 assists: Rooney (93+45), Sterling (78+44), Son (75+43), Drogba (73+42).
30-40 assists: Kane (117+30), Ronaldo (80+32), Mane (77+30), Hazard (62+38).

Just stats, make with it what you want. PL only. I'm sorry about the lack of sorting.

I think it's crazy how close Fabregas and Eriksen are to KDB on way lesser scoring teams.

As for what was discussed earlier - taking away penalties KDB and Lampard both get 100.

Henry was an alien.

 

[cyberman]

So City look poor when you watch their games over the last 5 years?

Jesus I think basically nothing City have won means anything due to them essentially being lottery winners but the red tinted glasses in here are mental. We also lost Semi Finals and Quarter finals.

In what way was Liverpool better than any of the City teams?

You’re putting too much emphasis on a side putting teams already in the beach to the sword.
Yes, they are lottery winners and have had a ridiculous squad that’s a huge advantage over the rest of he league. It’s ok to say that. Pointing it out isn’t some crazy act, it’s just stating how it is.
Now their squad has evened out a bit and look how Pep is coping. Let’s revisit this at the end of the season.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Henry was an alien.

Pretty much the standout thing for me in that chart too.

 

[padr81]

Henry was an alien.

I've said it before but Henry (in terms of numbers not style) is essentially Aguero and KDB together at peak City. Probably the most productive player the league will ever see.

 

[Glorio]

Henry was an alien.

Pretty much the standout thing for me in that chart too.

I don't think I've had as much genuine respect for a direct competitor's player as I've had for Henry - freak of nature

 

[DJ Jeff]

I don't think I've had as much genuine respect for a direct competitor's player as I've had for Henry - freak of nature

He would score 40 league goals a season in today's attacker-weighted game.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Since we're doing 5 year club averages. Let's do players as well. No cherry picking, this is pretty much any of the players' best 5 successive years in terms of output:

50+ assists and 80+ goal contributions total, only this side of the century (source: transfermarkt):

De Bruyne	2016-21	152 games	35 goals (4 pens)	69 assists	104 contributions	466 team goals (22,31%)
Fabregas	2006-11	144 games	30 goals (3 pens)	69 assists	99 contributions	360 team goals (27,50%)
Eriksen	2014-19	181 games	42 goals (0 pens)	56 assists	96 contributions	354 team goals (27,11%)
D. Silva	2011-16	151 games	31 goals (0 pens)	60 assists	91 contributions	415 team goals (21,92%)
Henry	2001-06	171 games	130 goals (17 pens)	59 assists	189 contributions	392 team goals (48,21%)
Salah	2017-22	180 games	118 goals (18 pens)	50 assists	168 contributions	420 team goals (40,00%)
Lampard	2005-10	169 games	71 goals (23 pens)	52 assists	123 contributions	372 team goals (33,06%)
van Persie	2008-13	145 games	94 goals (9 pens)	52 assists	146 contributions	383 team goals (38,12%)
Young	2007-12	169 games	33 goals (5 pens)	53 assists	86 contributions	314 team goals (27,38%)
Özil	2013-18	142 games	27 goals (0 pens)	54 assists	81 contributions	355 team goals (22,82%)
Suarez*	2011-14	110 games	69 goals (0 pens)	39 assists	108 contributions	278 team goals (38,85%)

* would probably easily have made 50 if he'd stayed for 5 seasons instead of 3,5.

Some other names with a decent amount of assists and a good amount of goals:
40-50 assists: Rooney (93+45), Sterling (78+44), Son (75+43), Drogba (73+42).
30-40 assists: Kane (117+30), Ronaldo (80+32), Mane (77+30), Hazard (62+38).

Just stats, make with it what you want. PL only. I'm sorry about the lack of sorting.

I think it's crazy how close Fabregas and Eriksen are to KDB on way lesser scoring teams.

As for what was discussed earlier - taking away penalties KDB and Lampard both get 100.

Where's Gerrard and Aguero btw? Be interested to see, very interesting chart you made.

 

[Zlatan 7]

That's the thing. It is not possible that every team is average. And if I have to guess whether the standard of football across all teams and leagues just magically dropped off a cliff or the assessment of fans who would rather see other teams on top is off then I'm pretty sure which explanation sounds more plausible to me. And to be honest, all that is backed up by the eye test. With the innovations around 2008/2009, football changed drastically and became much more organized. And today's top teams look much more well drilled, whether it is Liverpool, City, Bayern or whichever one you want to choose. The level of cohesivenes and organization s is completely different to the 00s and especially the EPL where football was very vertical and based on individual quality. Which is why they got destroyed by pressing teams that had zero right to beat them before the English teams eventually started to adapt around 2016/17.

I mean, watch a game of the 00s and how often they gave away possession, how many crosses and long balls they played, how open the midfield was, etc. and compare this with even a struggling top team in 2022/23. There are lightyears inbetween.




Not going to stop making a legit argument just because you post a laughing emoji. I mean, a higher points total literally means that the team achieved better results. No kind of mental gymnastics can explain how a team that got less points had a more dominant season. The stuff you have to argue here

It’s already been explained how teams would drop off in the league after winning it early and concentrate on other competitions or just go on holiday mode, nothing to do with this domination you are obsessed about. No point repeating that and I’ve also seen your posts in this thread with your opinions set in stone that I just disagree with.
Trophies show domination not points.

 

[adexkola]

It’s already been explained how teams would drop off in the league after winning it early and concentrate on other competitions or just go on holiday mode, nothing to do with this domination you are obsessed about. No point repeating that and I’ve also seen your posts in this thread with your opinions set in stone that I just disagree with.
Trophies show domination not points.

That means they didn't have much competition to begin with if they won it early. Or it's just a cop-out from insecure fans (who really don't need to be insecure at all about other teams)

Not many title races that had the quality of 2018-19's one for example, because (contrary to the nonsense being spouted in this thread) you had 2 excellent teams going at it for the title.

 

[Zlatan 7]

That means they didn't have much competition to begin with if they won it early. Or it's just a cop-out from insecure fans (who really don't need to be insecure at all about other teams)

Not many title races that had the quality of 2018-19's one for example, because (contrary to the nonsense being spouted in this thread) you had 2 excellent teams going at it for the title.

Or teams can still win it early but get obsessed about this points total

 

[Berbaclass]

It’s already been explained how teams would drop off in the league after winning it early and concentrate on other competitions or just go on holiday mode, nothing to do with this domination you are obsessed about. No point repeating that and I’ve also seen your posts in this thread with your opinions set in stone that I just disagree with.
Trophies show domination not points.

But..but Man City score loads of goals. You must be wrong.

 

[adexkola]

Or teams can still win it early but get obsessed about this points total

More instances come to mind of the points total being achieved by teams being chased by quality opposition, or teams just being too good for the rest of the league.

Chelsea in 04-05 weren't chasing points. They were just that better. Ditto for United in years where they achieved high point totals. Leicester City won the league with 81 points; no one has ever called them a dominant side.

Side note: A team can be dominant in a single season.

Definition of dominance. I don't see any reference in the dictionary to dominance having a time scale of at least 3 years.

We don't have to wait for a decade to see whether City or Arsenal can win 9 PL titles in 10 years before we call them dominant.

United fans really don't need to be insecure about the "dominant" tag being used in various scenarios; nothing is eclipsing United's trophy haul or SAF's status as the greatest manager ever, not even internet arguments, so relax weirdos.

 

[Zlatan 7]

More instances come to mind of the points total being achieved by teams being chased by quality opposition, or teams just being too good for the rest of the league.

Chelsea in 04-05 weren't chasing points. They were just that better. Ditto for United in years where they achieved high point totals. Leicester City won the league with 81 points; no one has ever called them a dominant side.

Side note: A team can be dominant in a single season.

Definition of dominance. I don't see any reference in the dictionary to dominance having a time scale of at least 3 years.

We don't have to wait for a decade to see whether City or Arsenal can win 9 PL titles in 10 years before we call them dominant.

United fans really don't need to be insecure about the "dominant" tag being used in various scenarios; nothing is eclipsing United's trophy haul or SAF's status as the greatest manager ever, not even internet arguments, so relax weirdos.

I could and probably do agree with this, what started my laughter in this thread is Liverpool being called as dominating the league for the last 5 years while they’ve won it once and then people pointing to and comparing points totals across decades

nice parting shot there, cute.

 

[Gazza]

I could and probably do agree with this, what started my laughter in this thread is Liverpool being called as dominating the league for the last 5 years while they’ve won it once and then people pointing to and comparing points totals across decades

nice parting shot there, cute.

That's typically his MO when he can't actually refute the points being made

 

[adexkola]

I could and probably do agree with this, what started my laughter in this thread is Liverpool being called as dominating the league for the last 5 years while they’ve won it once and then people pointing to and comparing points totals across decades

nice parting shot there, cute.

It's a double edge sword, promise! I can get a bit edgy when I hear Liverpool fans yapping a bit too much.

 

[Gio]

Henry was an alien.

That 48% team goal involvement puts him on par with Messi and Maradona who contributed similar proportions of their team's goals*, and ahead of the likes of Cristiano and anyone else who has played in England in the last half-century. It goes up to 62% if it's distilled to just his Champions League campaigns with Arsenal from 2002 to 2006, which goes against the 'EPL-flat-track-bully' narrative.

*It drops down a bit when looking at his overall career compared to those two.

 

[mitchmouse]

I'm afraid this is the most criminal misinformation since the great debunking of @mitchmouse on his bizarre take that no-one had ever considered De Gea up there with the best in the world.

KDB has scored 60 league goals for Man City in 224 appearances (0.27%) . He's scored 89 for them in 330 total games (Again 0.27%)


Lampard scored 147 in 429 for Chelsea in the league (0.34%) , and 211 in 648 goals in total. Featuring 5 seasons in a row of 20 or more (peak of 27) 0.33%

On top of this, bear in mind Lampard's first couple of seasons when starting up and last season when winding down massively skew his record.
Whereas KDB's whole time at City has been his prime. (ie, if we do a 6 seasons comparison it'll be a huge extra lift for Lampard's scoring rate).


KDB's best 2 scoring seasons were 16 and 19 total goals
Lampard had 6 seasons in a row, of 19,20,21,20,20,27, plus a 16 and 17 later

It's just so wrong to suggest they nearly score at the same rate it's well, criminal.

hardly debunked. I think you managed four pundits - one of whom might have been Souness... and some of those said "up there with"

Strangely no goalkeeper has come out to heap this sot of praise on DDG. Strangely...

 

[Sandikan]

hardly debunked. I think you managed four pundits - one of whom might have been Souness... and some of those said "up there with"

Strangely no goalkeeper has come out to heap this sot of praise on DDG. Strangely...

some of this might be true but as an all-round keeper (which includes giving confidence to his defence - that works both ways, you know - ) he isn't close to Peter S or VdS. Possibly not even the third-best United keeper in my life time. Doesn't marshal the defence well enough and doesn't command his six-yard box, let alone the penalty area. That said, a very good shot stopper. but never has been and never will be close to the best in the world which Peter Schmeichel was

Your exact quote was "never has been....close to the best in the world".

I didn't struggle to "only" produce comments from 4 pundits - I actually took the exact 5 pundits you specifically denied saying it - and quoted from them!

Quite a few more in here, including a couple of keepers. Fergie is in there, bloody hell even Stevie Gerrard is in there saying it
https://www.footiecentral.com/20180709/david-de-gea-quotes-best-quotes-on-david-de-gea/


@sullydnl , @arnie_ni, @UnofficialDevil - he's still not having it

 

[PSV]

Where's Gerrard and Aguero btw? Be interested to see, very interesting chart you made.

I'll just upload the entire sheet I made and slap a spoiler on it. Added a lot more players, and some early PL-era players too, some solid numbers there as well.

Spoiler

Source: transfermarkt.com --- Note: a lot of manually extracted data so not going to claim its faultless.

 

[FrankFoot]

With "7 titles in 9 years" you were obviously referring to the 1992 to 2001 period. In the period, one English team made it into a UCL final. I'm too lazy to check the UEFA ranking but I'm pretty sure it will back this up.

90s EPL was the 5th best league in Europe, it was far behind Serie A and La Liga, and also behind Ligue 1 and Bundesliga in UEFA coefficient, because United was the only english team with decent performances in european football..the likes of Newcastle, Arsenal and Blackburn were just bad in Europe.

It's the same situation with Serie A during the 8th titles in a row, when Juventus was the only italian team with good performances in Europe, good times to be a juve fan, but 2010s Serie A was far from being best league in Europe.

 

[Red in STL]

90s EPL was the 5th best league in Europe, it was far behind Serie A and La Liga, and also behind Ligue 1 and Bundesliga in UEFA coefficient, because United was the only english team with decent performances in european football..the likes of Newcastle, Arsenal and Blackburn were just bad in Europe.

It's the same situation with Serie A during the 8th titles in a row, when Juventus was the only italian team with good performances in Europe, good times to be a juve fan, but 2010s Serie A was far from being best league in Europe.

How do you define how good a league is?

 

[Pintu]

90s EPL was the 5th best league in Europe, it was far behind Serie A and La Liga, and also behind Ligue 1 and Bundesliga in UEFA coefficient, because United was the only english team with decent performances in european football..the likes of Newcastle, Arsenal and Blackburn were just bad in Europe.

It's the same situation with Serie A during the 8th titles in a row, when Juventus was the only italian team with good performances in Europe, good times to be a juve fan, but 2010s Serie A was far from being best league in Europe.

How do you define how good a league is?

The EPL of the 90s was further behind the top leagues than the Serie A of the 2010s was… In 2018, based on 13-18 period, Serie A was 3:d close behind the PL and la Liga was far ahead. If we take a year earlier Bundesliga was also clear in second while Serie A & PL were neck and neck for 3d..

In the 90s when Serie A was far ahead, the EPL wasn’t among the big leagues following.. It was in a third tier…

 

[Red in STL]

The EPL of the 90s was further behind the top leagues than the Serie A of the 2010s was… In 2018, based on 13-18 period, Serie A was 3:d close behind the PL and la Liga was far ahead. If we take a year earlier Bundesliga was also clear in second while Serie A & PL were neck and neck for 3d..

In the 90s when Serie A was far ahead, the EPL wasn’t among the big leagues following.. It was in a third tier…

So the quality of a league is based on how well it's clubs performed in Europe, that's one way of looking at it I guess, I do know one thing though, the quality of anythingcan rarely be ever expressed in calculation or statistics

 

[mitchmouse]

Your exact quote was "never has been....close to the best in the world".

I didn't struggle to "only" produce comments from 4 pundits - I actually took the exact 5 pundits you specifically denied saying it - and quoted from them!

Quite a few more in here, including a couple of keepers. Fergie is in there, bloody hell even Stevie Gerrard is in there saying it
https://www.footiecentral.com/20180709/david-de-gea-quotes-best-quotes-on-david-de-gea/


@sullydnl , @arnie_ni, @UnofficialDevil - he's still not having it

yeh... right. Steven Gerrard.... keep trying to convince the caf with that

 

[Sandikan]

yeh... right. Steven Gerrard.... keep trying to convince the caf with that

Are you trying to suggest Gerrard hasn't said it?
One of many sites holding the quotes
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-up-de-gea-from-a-rivals-perspective-20180313

 

[mitchmouse]

Are you trying to suggest Gerrard hasn't said it?
One of many sites holding the quotes
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-up-de-gea-from-a-rivals-perspective-20180313

I'm saying Gerrard is hardly someone I listen to. interesting that none of those giving their opinion has done so on the bigger outlets. can't be something they want to push too much

 

[cyberman]

He’s being wasted by Pep by being pushed so wide. I can see why in the manner of wanting to get quality balls into Haaland but it’s killing City creativity through the middle

 

[LawCharltonBest]

He’s being wasted by Pep by being pushed so wide. I can see why in the manner of wanting to get quality balls into Haaland but it’s killing City creativity through the middle

I thought De Bruyne was the best player on the pitch

I think Haaland is a bit like their Ruud. Individually their best player but the team seem to function so much better without him. United, I believe only won the league once with Ruud which is mad.

 

[FrankFoot]

So the quality of a league is based on how well it's clubs performed in Europe, that's one way of looking at it I guess, I do know one thing though, the quality of anythingcan rarely be ever expressed in calculation or statistics

Because there is no other way to measure, performances in Europe are the only objective way to measure league quality.

Other measurements would be completely subjective, which would include style of play, favorite players, favorite managers, but all that suits more a personal opinion than anything.

 

[cyberman]

I thought De Bruyne was the best player on the pitch

I think Haaland is a bit like their Ruud. Individually their best player but the team seem to function so much better without him. United, I believe only won the league once with Ruud which is mad.

I do t think he did much at all. A great wee dink in and that was it. It’s shocking when you think back to the first game and he’s breaking on us by running straight to the heart of the defence and what he did today. He was constantly running to where we would have wanted him to

 

[padr81]

I do t think he did much at all. A great wee dink in and that was it. It’s shocking when you think back to the first game and he’s breaking on us by running straight to the heart of the defence and what he did today. He was constantly running to where we would have wanted him to

Feeling the weight of single handedly carrying the team, myself and yourself talked about this earlier in the season when we said City were becoming over relient on KDB feeding Haaland and when Ji Sung Fred did well on him today we had no alternative. One of those players like Bruno who can still produce that moment like he did when he's not on song but today was a 5/10 from him, maybe a 6 if he gets a bonus for the assist. Was simply marked out of the game bar a couple of moments.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I thought De Bruyne was the best player on the pitch

I think Haaland is a bit like their Ruud. Individually their best player but the team seem to function so much better without him. United, I believe only won the league once with Ruud which is mad.

It’s been shown constantly in modern football that having a pure goalscorer up top sounds nice but it often makes the best/most proactive teams worse. You can’t get away with just buying some cnut that scores a bunch of goals and thinking that will immediately make you better, the game is too technical now. Even SAF recognized how much better United were after getting rid of his talismanic striker, you bring more overall play into the side.

I think Pep missed the mark going with Grealish and Haaland as his most recent huge buys. They would have been better trying to get another direct winger like Sane and another more technical all around player for the middle. City at their best had Sterling and Sane along with Mahrez to torch fullbacks. Grealish and Foden are more just playmakers

 

[padr81]

It’s been shown constantly in modern football that having a pure goalscorer up top sounds nice but it often makes the best/most proactive teams worse. You can’t get away with just buying some cnut that scores a bunch of goals and thinking that will immediately make you better, the game is too technical now. Even SAF recognized how much better United were after getting rid of his talismanic striker, you bring more overall play into the side.

I think Pep missed the mark going with Grealish and Haaland as his most recent huge buys. They would have been better trying to get another direct winger like Sane and another more technical all around player for the middle. City at their best had Sterling and Sane along with Mahrez to torch fullbacks. Grealish and Foden are more just playmakers

I'd agree Sane, Sterling, Aguero was our best forward line, that could play at frightening pace as well as Pep possession football. This one seems to be more ponderous and then relies on one man (KDB) finding one other (Haaland). Defences aren't afraid to push up on our wingers anymore, Malacia and AWB today was a strong example showing no respect for Mahrez and Foden getting in behind, as was Southampton a couple of days ago, the only worry in behind is Haaland.

 

[Shane88]

He's definitely in the all-time greatest Premier League midfield, isn't he? Who he knocks out of a midfield spot is up for discussion though.

Ginger bollocks.

 

[Holocene]

He's definitely in the all-time greatest Premier League midfield, isn't he? Who he knocks out of a midfield spot is up for discussion though.

Ginger bollocks.

He's the best of them all.

 

[Gringo]

He's Gerrard but good.

 

[Bwuk]

He's definitely in the all-time greatest Premier League midfield, isn't he? Who he knocks out of a midfield spot is up for discussion though.

Ginger bollocks.

Keane, Scholes & KdB as the 3 for me.

 

[Botim]

He's not even having the greatest of seasons, but he's still on 16 assists and 7 goals in 29 games.
All that's missing to be considered a true great is a stellar performance in a CL final.