German Football 23/24 |

[Blackwidow]

Why do you say he failed at Munich ? He was fired while still being in all 3 competitions and as we have seen under Tuchel Bayern didnt play any better at all. I dont think he has failed at all he was simply a Victim of Kahn/Salihamidzic. But of course its all speculation now what would have happened if they kept him and gave him the time risking a Season without a title

He failed in Munich. His team was in a very bad physical shape - already in the second half of the season before - but the whole season after the 60th minute and especially after the World Cup break. He was not a victim.

And he was starting to see opponents everywhere - and started to get rid of them - and to get his friends in this positions. First was Tapalovic, Neuer's goalkeeper coach. He needed "Pufferfische" (bumper fishes???) and talked about that even in the press conferences.

The football got worse - even if we were still in the competitions. We won against PSG because their state even was worse than ours...

 

[do.ob]

I still have a hard time believing that a modern coach like Nagelsmann, who studied sports science and has all these assistants, supposedly somehow turns out to be completely clueless on building player fitness.

And if that indeed already was the case the season before, then Bayern surely would have forced him to take some fitness expert into his staff.

 

[Blackwidow]

I still have a hard time believing that a modern coach like Nagelsmann, who studied sports science and has all these assistants, supposedly somehow turns out to be completely clueless on building player fitness.

And if that indeed already was the case the season before, then Bayern surely would have forced him to take some fitness expert into his staff.

They have a fitness expert in their squad who worked great with Hansi and Pep etc. He was a big reason why we won the treble in 2020.

 

[do.ob]

They have a fitness expert in their squad who worked great with Hansi and Pep etc. He was a big reason why we won the treble in 2020.

So he just stood by watching, while Nagelsmann ruined his work?

 

[Zehner]

Well, he doesn't like the business and media circus. That doesn't make him a simpleton.

His criticism of the national team also was fully justified - it lacked mentality and determination. Nothing wrong about demanding classic virtues from them in that case.

And I wonder why you question his professionalism. As @do.ob correctly stated he turned the team around, tried to turn them into a dominant, proactive team (and was mostly successful) and was even able to lead them into the ECL.

I do wonder why especially you who highly rates possession play can criticise a coach who coached his team from being one of the worst in possession to 4th highest possession in the league and in the process created lots of transfer value which keeps the club alive that was badly mismanaged and is massively in debt.

I fully get you not liking him simply because he coaches Köln, but I feel like you are not giving him the respect he deserves. Just call him an a****le and be done with it.

Köln is currently 16th for possession in the Bundesliga. There have been other coaches who had some successes with smaller teams in the Bundesliga but couldn't maintain that level of performance (if it was a good performance to begin with and not just a comparatively weak Bundesliga season in general). When I watch Köln play, I see no handwriting or anythjng like that. Even in his first season, they hardly played a certain brand of football. Their most prominent pattern of play was playing the full back free who then whipped in an early cross from the half spaces on Modeste. Last season, they relied on Kainz' inverted crosses with less success.

And I don't dislike him because he coaches Köln. Actually, I rooted for Köln most of my life because I live there and generally want them to play first division football. Even before Baumgart joined Köln, I couldn't stand him. I simply can't bear the stupid and superficial nonsense he spouts all the time and he doesn't strike me as 'authentic' at all. Actually, the complete opposite is the case Pretends that he hates the whole media circus but never misses an opportunity to say something polarizing into a microphone.

And honestly, when somebody criticizes mentality and spirit, I just switch off. It's such a substance free statement that gets repeated over and over again. There hasn't been a defeat in the history of football that didn't lead to somebody criticizing the mentality. It is easy to understand, everybody gets it even somebody who never watched a single game of football in his life.

 

[Zehner]

This just reads like you're trying to rationalize your dislike of him.

For example he's a 50 year old, who grew up in the DDR, never played abroad and coached lower leagues until fairly recently. I'd be more surprised if his English skills were great.
I also think focusing on German is not strictly a bad thing for a club like Köln, it's a trade off between size of recruitment pool and easier team building and identification of fans and team with the club. Since they are pretty broke and can't offer European football either they aren't in a position to take their picks from abroad anyway and Germany and it's neighboring countries still provides them with a fairly large pool.

Other than that you're just listing stuff that has little to do with intelligence or professionalism, let alone actual coaching performance.
"He looks grim and isn't friendly enough with the press", seriously?


He gets results, he does so with a distinct / attractive tactical style and he's popular with the media and fans. That's pretty much the holy trinity of being a valuable coach to a club.

I mean, it is logical that you like him. Your paragraph on him being the right coach for 'a club like Köln' reads almost identical to what you wrote about Terzic and the focus on mentality and physique in Dortmund's transfer strategy over the last two years.

But you're just doing what you accuse me of: The football romantic in you wants that to be true. He wants that an honest and hard working style of football works for a club with a big fan base and he wants that a euphoric fan base can carry such a club to successes. But in the end, that's just style over substance. You keep pointing what big club Köln is but what made them such immense underachievers to begin with is that romanticism. Why does such a big club limit itself to the German speaking player market, especially when the current generation of German players lacks behind?

 

[do.ob]

I mean, it is logical that you like him. Your paragraph on him being the right coach for 'a club like Köln' reads almost identical to what you wrote about Terzic and the focus on mentality and physique in Dortmund's transfer strategy over the last two years.

But you're just doing what you accuse me of: The football romantic in you wants that to be true. He wants that an honest and hard working style of football works for a club with a big fan base and he wants that a euphoric fan base can carry such a club to successes. But in the end, that's just style over substance. You keep pointing what big club Köln is but what made them such immense underachievers to begin with is that romanticism. Why does such a big club limit itself to the German speaking player market, especially when the current generation of German players lacks behind?

There is nothing romantic or insubstantial about hard numbers, like results, and Baumgart is getting them. Yet you're ignoring this.

And if you look at the squads of Freiburg and Union, you'll see that the vast majority of their players has played for a German club before or comes from one of our neighbors.

 

[Blackwidow]

So he just stood by watching, while Nagelsmann ruined his work?

You can look into the data on transfermarket. There is a table in which you can see the result of special intervalls in the match. Bayern was clear no.1 with distance in the first 60 minutes - and hardly scored goals or turned matches after the 60s minute - often the game collapsed. 'That just can be a fitness problem - or the football does not match a two matches/week schedule.

They underestimated the impact of the World Cup, the long holiday after that and the short preparation afterwards. The players had holidays from end of November to January 3rd - and the first match of the new year was already about 2 weeks later.
The problem I told in the last sentences after that got really worse.

 

[Zehner]

There is nothing romantic or insubstantial about hard numbers, like results, and Baumgart is getting them. Yet you're ignoring this.

And if you look at the squads of Freiburg and Union, you'll see that the vast majority of their players has played for a German club before or comes from one of our neighbors.

I'm not ignoring results. I called him a simpleton, you argued against it. If 'getting results' (as in: 7th, 11th, currently 16th) means that somebody can't be a simpleton regardless of bow he behaves, fine. I disagree.

But I think a club like Köln has much more potential than this and their tendency to appoing big mouths over real professionals is why they underachieve. Like you they completely overestimate how important it is to have a coach who 'connects with the fans'. And why? Because their great fan scene is the only thing that you can be proud of as an FC fan so you big it up where you can.

 

[do.ob]

I'm not ignoring results. I called him a simpleton, you argued against it. If 'getting results' (as in: 7th, 11th, currently 16th) means that somebody can't be a simpleton regardless of bow he behaves, fine. I disagree.

But I think a club like Köln has much more potential than this and their tendency to appoing big mouths over real professionals is why they underachieve. Like you they completely overestimate how important it is to have a coach who 'connects with the fans'. And why? Because their great fan scene is the only thing that you can be proud of as an FC fan so you big it up where you can.

What I'm referring to is your attempt to tie this into some wider point about him or his kind being bad for Köln, even though facts suggest the opposite. When he took over Köln were predicted to have a rough start and a painful relegation struggle - the reality was quite different.

 

[Zehner]

What I'm referring to is your attempt to tie this into some wider point about him or his kind being bad for Köln, even though facts suggest the opposite. When he took over Köln were predicted to have a rough start and a painful relegation struggle - the reality was quite different.

I get that and I don't deny that he had a very good first season with Köln. But typically for Köln, the hype around him got far too big. Even in their ECL achieving season, they kind of ran out of fuel towards the end and never really recovered from that drop in performances. And just because a coach had a short term impact, that doesn't mean he's the right to develop the club further.

See, I'm living in Cologne, I grew up with FC fans left right and center and used to attend their stadium a couple of times a year. A character like Baumgart was always going to be loved by them but for all the wrong reasons. It's just the way they pick their officials. They could appoint Podolski as DoF and the whole city would celebrate it.

Anyway, originally it was about me not liking Baungart because he's a simpleton. And I stand by that. So much stuff he says because he wants to polarize is just superficial bullshit and hypocritical. For a coach who pretends not to like the media circus, he's searching the limelight quite often.

 

[FortunaUtd]

He's dimwitted fool who deemed it appropriate to hold a presser for his NT-retirement, ffs. He's the Torsten Legat or Mario Basler of our time, a Stammtisch-Bullshiter. He belongs into Doppelpass not our NT.

Agree 100%.

 

[Kasper]

I love how every time a Bayern coach is sacked there is this big smear campaign about things you never heard people complain during the tenure but suddenly were all evident in 20/20 hindsight.
Didn't Ancelotti also keep the squad super unfit and the poor players had to meet up themselves to organise training? Yeah, I think I've heard about this stuff before.
Even funnier because the football hasn't improved one bit since Tuchel has taken over.

 

[stefan92]

Agree 100%.

Sucks for you two, but he stays as Nagelsmann's assistant

 

[FortunaUtd]

Sucks for you two, but he stays as Nagelsmann's assistant

That is fine because I assume it means he will not be commenting games anymore.

 

[ForEverEleven]

I hate Baumgart and Köln too but you cant deny that he massively overachieved so far in his 2 seasons with them. I also wouldn´t say that there is no brand of football associated with him. In the last two years they played extremely intense football, pressing high up the pitch, and primarily playing over the wings whipping in crosses to a tall striker. There was a clear plan behind it and it worked. When I remember our away win last season over them we got extremely lucky and were outplayed for most parts of the game.

Baumgart is still a populist however and a personality that annoys me a lot. Be it the staged video of him screaming in front of the TV during the Covid season or his recent outburst over the new DFB reform which he obviously didn´t even read or understand.

 

[B. Munich]

So he just stood by watching, while Nagelsmann ruined his work?

The winter WC was a first and the impact on the players unknown to all training staff. Probably, Nagelsmann team handled this extraordinary situation just very poorly. The team looked void of confidence and energy despite being full of both just before the WC.

 

[stefan92]

The winter WC was a first and the impact on the players unknown to all training staff. Probably, Nagelsmann team handled this extraordinary situation just very poorly. The team looked void of confidence and energy despite being full of both just before the WC.

The core of the team had a disastrous WC, that surely had an impact as well

 

[B. Munich]

The core of the team had a disastrous WC, that surely had an impact as well

Mentally definitely. The only player with a positive WC was Mazraoui but he was out for months due to long covid symptoms.

On top Nagelmann got the pre season preparation totally wrong. The team wasn't fit.
After the 60th minute the players were tired and couldn't react to goals conceded.

 

[Hakara]

Good to see Kane learning from Choupo-GOATing.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

They’re running a train on Bochum.

 

[Redplane]

So De Ligt's not coming after all? (Started and scored).

 

[BayernFan87]

Kane is really a great no. 10 wow

 

[do.ob]

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What an interview. I'd say he really stuck the dagger into his coach's back, but it was more like a machete.

 

[FortunaUtd]

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What an interview. I'd say he really stuck the dagger into his coach's back, but it was more like a machete.

Amazing. I do not remember hearing an interview like that from a player before. Why is a player authorized to give such an interview, in a panel, assuming the position of a pundit or a club executive? And that is a player that has been at the club since what, 8 weeks?

 

[do.ob]

Amazing. I do not remember hearing an interview like that from a player before. Why is a player authorized to give such an interview, in a panel, assuming the position of a pundit or a club executive? And that is a player that has been at the club since what, 8 weeks?

I assume it was meant to be a standard interview and he just freestyled?

 

[FortunaUtd]

I assume it was meant to be a standard interview and he just freestyled?

Yes. I should have put it as 'why does a player feel he is authorized to..", it is quite some nerve.

 

[Zehner]

That interview definitely sounded devastating Haven't seen much of Reis, what brand of football does he want to play?

 

[ForEverEleven]

That interview definitely sounded devastating Haven't seen much of Reis, what brand of football does he want to play?

Same as last season in the Bundesliga, manmarking all over the pitch which reguarly leaves big holes defensively when players are dragged out of position. St. Pauli wonderfully exploited this yesterday with the striker dropping deep, dragging a CB with him and then having runners from midfield or wide players going into the space the striker just opened up.
With the ball Schalke are absolutely clueless as well, most of the time they go for the long ball to their big target man (Polter).

 

[do.ob]

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Schalke suspended and fined him. He didn't leave them much choice I guess

You also have to wonder whether he actually bought Reis another week or two: I mean he's definitely deep into sacking territory with these results and a mutiny to boot, but Baumgartl overdid it to such an extend with his interview that the club may not be so eager to open themselves up to the suggestions that it's random players, who get to decide their own boss's fate via interviews.

edit:
According to Schalke's press release he only has to train with the second team next week and in the next paragraph they even mention that it's a short training week, because their next game is on Friday. No direct mention of being dropped from the match day squad, though I guess it could technically be implied.

Sounds like a bit of a joke, doesn't it? I mean compare what he said to what Sancho said ... ... I'm sure there are a lot of coaches out there who would (want to) just refuse to work with him again.

 

[Zehner]

Same as last season in the Bundesliga, manmarking all over the pitch which reguarly leaves big holes defensively when players are dragged out of position. St. Pauli wonderfully exploited this yesterday with the striker dropping deep, dragging a CB with him and then having runners from midfield or wide players going into the space the striker just opened up.
With the ball Schalke are absolutely clueless as well, most of the time they go for the long ball to their big target man (Polter).

Sounds spectacular Surprised that the second half of the last season went that well for Schalke with such an approach

 

[do.ob]

Pretty hectic ending to Hertha's game, but with three points today it looks like the Dardais have steadied the ship. Hamburg started really well, but two losses to newly promoted sides surely must have put a dent in their mood. So now we have an incredibly close table, where first and 15th place are separated by only six points.
For comparison in the first division that six point gap only extends down to the 7th/8th place - and that's despite playing two fewer games.

 

[Zehner]

Scandalous that this goal counts

 

[stefan92]

Guirassy 10, Kane 7, Boniface 6 goals after 5 matches. I guess it's safe to say that this is going to be a far better season for strikers than last season and that you will need 25+ goals instead of just 16 to become the topscorer.

 

[strongwalker]

I love how every time a Bayern coach is sacked there is this big smear campaign about things you never heard people complain during the tenure but suddenly were all evident in 20/20 hindsight.
Didn't Ancelotti also keep the squad super unfit and the poor players had to meet up themselves to organise training? Yeah, I think I've heard about this stuff before.

Actually, this was well known while Ancelotti was in charge.

 

[do.ob]

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When there were rumors in the summer I was sure he'd need to marinate for at least another year to even be a financially feasible transfer and I'm not convinced he'd be that great an addition, but considering the seriously impressive rate at which United are burning his value, I'm wondering whether there might come a point, where it's just too cheap not to loan him back and see how it goes.

 

[Acrobat7]

Look at Bayern not getting a penalty. Where is the public outrage?

 

[Swarm]

Look at Bayern not getting a penalty. Where is the public outrage?

As part of the public I assure you I would be outraged if I were watching

 

[do.ob]

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There's a joke about Eredivisie to be made here, but I'm to lazy to think about it.

 

[Blackwidow]

Look at Bayern not getting a penalty. Where is the public outrage?

A Bayern loanee breaks the arm of a bayern player...
Gnabry is out until mid/end of November because of that and will get surgery tomorrow...