It’s not a non statement. This clubs history is built on that playing attacking football.
ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”
- Thread starter FrenchRed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
It's not about the money. It's about the club's willingness to make changes.
This club could have signed Caicedo for £10m. There are plenty of players out there we could get without spending half of what we have, which could improve us.
The club has simply proved unwilling to oversee significant playing staff churn in any summer since 2015.
You can't keep holding on to players and suddenly expect them to do more. Every coach since LVG has eventually defaulted to 4231 and counterattack.
That is how our squad is constructed. A thoughtful and experienced Sporting Director, with board support, could have changed things. However, when open heart surgery was recommended, the Board rejected that approach.
The players determine style of play. With all the best will on earth, we don't have the players to go full tiki taka.
If those quotes are real, we might as well sack him now. And in the future, talking about "Manchester United DNA" should be an immediate sackable offence. I'm also open to the idea of making it a capital offence but maybe that's too harsh.
We need an overhaul of the overhaul next summer.
What I don't get is he played Evans because he's better at receiving the ball from Onana and his passing is better than Varane.
But then he plays McTominay as a #10 and we play long ball so negates the reason why you've selected Evans.
But then he plays McTominay as a #10 and we play long ball so negates the reason why you've selected Evans.
Our DoF should have been doing his job like everyone's grandma asked for. Was even blindly heralded as our saviour. We wanted to avoid another situation with several hundred million misspent
That in itself should raise alarm bells. If the team is built for mid/low block you don’t simply insist on a total different style to look this bad. If you do insist on doing it the hopes would be that the likes of Antony & Mount would be integral to it otherwise why not buy players that would be.
People are convoluting what implementation of a style of play is.
Yep agree 100%. There were a few different Plan A attacking scenarios we employed - Lindelof / Bruno hoof ball against a mid block with Rashford making a curved run is one of those. I don't have a problem with Ten Hag using the ploy because it's a pretty effective tool but it should be used once or twice in a game when the oppo fullback goes to sleep.
The problem generally for me is that there are no real positional rotations / overloads being generated consistently. No consistent way in which we attack beyond hero-ball.
We don't want to be a direct counter attacking team, we want to be a direct high pressing team. Last season we were continuing to be a direct counter attacking team, the same way we were under Ole and Mou.
It's very clear what we're trying to do this season, and some parts we're very good at, some parts we're very poor at, and the latter is why we're struggling.
So if we never play a different style, how will we ever adopt a different style?
It's quite simple really, no matter who the manager is, or whatever their style is, if we want to stop being a mid block counter attacking side then we'll have to go through the slow-ish process of adopting a new approach, and that will involve a painful transitional period where we occasionally look good, often look disjointed, and have a few drubbings, just like we are now, until we have a squad full of players who are comfortable in the new system.
Yeah, like I said in the other thread: it's a weird comment at best.
Nobody (United fans) would mind us playing football of the sort Ajax played under him at their best.
And I can't imagine (really) that he's been instructed not to play that sort of football either...because that would just be insanity on a level that even we aren't capable of.
It reads like a defensive statement on his part, as in: he's defending himself.
Which is a very, very bad sign.
We can hope it's been poorly translated/the context not understood, something like that.
Nobody (United fans) would mind us playing football of the sort Ajax played under him at their best.
And I can't imagine (really) that he's been instructed not to play that sort of football either...because that would just be insanity on a level that even we aren't capable of.
It reads like a defensive statement on his part, as in: he's defending himself.
Which is a very, very bad sign.
We can hope it's been poorly translated/the context not understood, something like that.
This alone confirms Eth as a mediocre manager. The teams poor performance are the reflective evidence of the managers vision. If he's not bringing anything that coincided with his success at Ajax please tell me what's the point in continuing with him ?
It's precisely the problem. It's one step forward and two steps back in basically every way. He signed Lisandro and Onana to play out from the back, but then his ideal midfield is a bunch of a midfielders who average 80% passing accuracy.
Everything is or has been half-measured with Hag. There is no absolute commitment either way. The splinters are starting to dig in from all that tactical fence sitting.
Proper 'alarm bells ringing' type of comments there
When the different style is proving to be an unsuccessful one you have to question the style though.
Difference for difference sake isn’t a good thing. As you’ve pointed out earlier we seem to be pressing higher & causing more turnovers of possession but that in itself isn’t a playing style it’s a characteristic of one.
You keep going back to their being highs & lows in any transition which is obvious but the highs aren’t there in this transitional period. What you’re doing is assuming that time will solve all which is looking like blind optimism currently.
What makes you think we are playing ETHs ideal midfield?
Because we signed Eriksen on a free? Or because we didn't sell McTominay?
Maybe its because we loaned Amrabat on the final day of the window
He hasn't though.
Mount is one of the best off-the-ball players in the world, he's been brought in to lead the press, he was wanted by Klopp and Arteta for the same reason.
Anthony has the right attributes and approach to the game, he's a good presser and defends well. I don't think he has the physical attributes to excel in the league (he doesn't have great pace or great acceleration), but he clearly fits the system. If we could pump him full of nandrolone and clenbuterol he'd be perfect.
Onana is a ball playing keeper who's gives us an ability to play out from the back that we didn't have before.
Martinez is a ball playing centre back, comfortable resisting the press and playing through the opposition. We miss him tremendously.
Casemiro is a question mark here, he wasn't Ten Hag's first choice and he was supposed to bring some steel and ball winning to the team, but it does remain to be seen if he has the legs for that role.
Other than that, we've signed players on a free, or on emergency loans, so haven't been able to be particularly picky.
Ten Hag's 100% right, but he shouldn't have said that. Fans will read it and will hold the quotes against him.
Our starting 11 vs City was no better than two seasons ago. The same, similar players who cannot play in a possession based team.
We miss certain players and we didn't add certain players. I cannot see us playing a posession based game with our current group of players. Shaw, Martinez, Onana, maybe Varane and Antony can certainly play that game, but not Rashford, Hojlund, Fernandes and Casemiro and they have important roles in our team.
I’m talking about the ones he started this season with — Casemiro, Bruno Fernandes, and Mason Mount. Two of his signings and his club captain.
Most of the people on here don't even know what playing like Ajax means. They don't watch the Dutch leagues and had only seen a few CL matches.
Correction 2 of the clubs signings, and by the way we don't really have any players fit to be captain so its a useless point.
Casemiro - a last minute signing made by the club because it could not secure ETHs target
Bruno Fernandes - A player the club handed out a massive new contract to before ETH walked in the door
Mason Mount - Hes been here 5 minutes and been mainly injured.
Amrabat is a player with 80% passing accuracy? Or did that one not suit your agenda?
Quite clearly the cubs recruitment is broken, the manager has to take some of the blame but the club has to take most of it
Did people suddenly forget Mourinho won the Europa League whilst finishing 2nd? That was by far our best season since Fergie and nothing since or before has come close. It's a shame the club didn't back him after and somehow expected someone like Mourinho to simply stay quiet about it. I didn't like the football but that was the closest we've come to looking like title contenders IMO. If they properly backed him by selling Pogba and Martial and getting the targets he asked for that summer, I think he would have challenged the following season.
I thought that was a mistake too. It reminds me of when a company has a high turnover of staff and they blame the staff who keep repeating the same problems. It’s to avoid accountability.
oh wait, that’s exactly what’s happened.
Firstly, this isn't difference for difference sake. It's difference because our mid/low block of the Ole and Mou eras has a clear ceiling of success due to the lack of control we have over matches, and how much we struggle to break down teams who sit deep against us. We need to adopt a more proactive approach of some variety in order to build for long term success.
As for your final line, I haven't claimed at any point that time will solve it by itself. My point was that no system will work immediately without any wrinkles given our personnel. It takes players unused to a system time to get used to it, and some simply won't be suited to it, and replacing those players with ones that are also takes time when limited the way we are with poor scouting and a budget that allows 3 signings per year. No matter who we appoint, no matter what proactive style they try to implement, it'll come with pain, poor form, and losses until we get more comfortable and experienced with it, and that'll only happen if we stick with it through the tough times rather than throwing it in the bin because it isn't immediately successful.
We have had highs, there are periods of matches we've looked excellent this season (first half against Spurs, Palace away, most of the Arsenal match except for just after scoring, Forest after the 4th minute, Galatasaray apart from the defensive brainfarts, Copenhagen, etc). As previously mentioned we're now really good at winning the ball high, we're also much more confident and composed in possession at the back, those are 2 key areas of the system we've made great progress in. There are clearly areas we're yet to make enough progress in, such as using those turnovers, defensive third pressures, and recovering from a broken press, which are why we're struggling.
In the system we're trying to implement, the positives easily outweigh the negatives when playing it to it's full potential. We're obviously nowhere near there but the same point remains - that would be the case with most systems we adopt, and at some point we need to actually see one through, even if it takes several managers.
You're misremembering, as that didn't happen.
Mou won the Europa league while finishing 6th (he threw away the league to win it), and in the following season he finished 2nd we won
I thought Ole ball was terrible for the most part, but I'll always have fond memories of two periods of his time here.
First being his initial winning run. We weren't playing ground breaking stuff or anything, but we were pressing, playing fast, showing signs of link-up patterns, passing it out from the back with intent, etc. We weren't perfect at any of these aspects by any means, but it was refreshing to see signs of us implementing all of that into our play.
Second being that period of MMM. I thought those three linking up with Martial as a false 9 and Rashford and Greenwood as wide forwards provided some of the best football we produced post Fergie. It was no coincidence that, with those three, we had that period of winning penalty after penalty as they were a menace for defences. We finally had an attack that was fast, energetic, could dribble, could hold the ball under pressure which allowed us to pin teams back instead of constantly losing the ball in tight spaces, had periods of them interchanging, etc.
Has he realised that the club is being run like LVG said it was and Jose? Is he looking for a way out? As he seen heard enough bullshit from the club.
Saying that he's bought in Mount Onana Hojlund this season. And we're would we be if J Evans didn't train with squad? Those quotes are a worry ..
Saying that he's bought in Mount Onana Hojlund this season. And we're would we be if J Evans didn't train with squad? Those quotes are a worry ..
I’m sorry, but a thick cnut he is if he believes those words.
You can't forget something that didn't happen.
Mourinho won the Europa League and League Cup whilst finishing 6th in his first season, then went trophyless finishing 2nd (19 points behind City). 3rd + the League Cup is much better than both. We were miles off Chelsea in Mourinho's first season and miles off City in his second. Any suggestion that any amount of transfer dealings would have pushed us closer is laughable.
I suspect he didn't play Varane because he only just came back from injury and didn't want to push him too much.all myths
But a game of this magnitude needed our best players. We could have rested Varane in another match.
That makes his appointment pointless then. Gets hired on the basis of his work at Ajax and play like the shit version of Ole ball. Might as well kept Ole.
It all depends on if this is coming from the top i.e. does any incoming a manger basically get told they have to accommodate certain players or is this something ETH has decided to do i.e. basically give up on his plan. If the former we’re doomed, if the latter he is.
I completely disagree with ETH here, this is madness. Feck using 'United DNA' as a crutch. We brought you in to play progressive, modern football, and handed you a fortune to build a squad capable of doing so.
If we'd wanted Ole Ball we had just the guy in place to do it..
If we'd wanted Ole Ball we had just the guy in place to do it..
Yeah exactly this, embarrassing and there are no excuses left for him.
Don't worry, in a few years ETH's time here will look just as rosy. You'll be able to ignore his flaws the way you've wiped out things like Mourinho actually signing Pogba to begin with, wanting Maguire and going on the heritage rant instead of taking an iota of responsibility for his own part in that CL humiliation.
We don’t even have players to play United way 
Coward of a manager. That’s why I always respected Van Gaal. A brave manager who wanted to implement his own football but fans won’t have it. Given it was boring given some of his signings were crap but you see now it’s not an easy fix. To change the style at this club is like squeezing the blood out of a stone but the guy was hell bent on changing it and implementing his own. How I wish now we should have given him more time in hindsight. We need a manager like him who’s strong and confident not the ones like this guy or Ole.
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Another guy that fell for Manchester United DNA shite.
Very silly comments for him. For those that still have faith in him, considering his work at Ajax will start to have major doubts if the man himself doesn't think the style of football he had a Ajax can be replicated here. While I don't think anyone expected a carbon copy, there was the hope that he would significantly change our style of play for the better. While he does have to adapt to a new league and new players, he's now signed several players he's either worked with or is familiar with from the Dutch league - spending over £400m in total on players. It puts into question why he was brought here in the first place.
I do think the club giving him so much power with transfers has backfired massively and while I'd like to largely blame the club for that, it appears that was one of the demands he made when signing for the club, so I can hardly feel sorry for him if his own transfers are a big reason why he fails.
As much as I hated his football, the more I have to give LVG respect for at least sticking to his principles and instilling a clear footballing philosophy into the team. This is a man that had Fellaini in midfield and Smalling at CB yet had a team that would dominate possession. I'm not suggesting it was good, but he's the only manager we've had who I think has made a significant difference to our style of play and I think with a proper footballing structure, LVG probably would have been our best manager since SAF.
I do think the club giving him so much power with transfers has backfired massively and while I'd like to largely blame the club for that, it appears that was one of the demands he made when signing for the club, so I can hardly feel sorry for him if his own transfers are a big reason why he fails.
As much as I hated his football, the more I have to give LVG respect for at least sticking to his principles and instilling a clear footballing philosophy into the team. This is a man that had Fellaini in midfield and Smalling at CB yet had a team that would dominate possession. I'm not suggesting it was good, but he's the only manager we've had who I think has made a significant difference to our style of play and I think with a proper footballing structure, LVG probably would have been our best manager since SAF.