Cricket World Cup/ICC Champions Trophy Draft - FINAL Crappy VS The Red Viper

Based on performances in ICC tournaments which team would win?


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2mufc0

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This draft is based on player performances in ICC World Cups and Champions Trophy only, only performances in these tournaments count, performances outside these tournaments carry no weight. Please vote according to this criteria.

TEAM CRAPPY

1. Sourav Ganguly
2. Sanath Jayasuriya
3. Kumara Sangakarra (wk)
4. Viv Richards
5. Martin Crowe
6. Imran Khan (*)
7. Shane Watson
8. Mitchell Starc
9. Zaheer Khan
10. Mushtaq Ahmed
11. Alan Donald

VS

TEAM THE RED VIPER


01. Virender Sehwag.
02. Adam Gilchrist. (+)
03. Jacques Kallis. (6)
04. Virat Kohli. (c)
05. Javed Miandad.
06. Scott Styris. (7)
07.Lance Klusener. (5)
08. Andy Roberts. (2)
09. Muttiah Muralitharan. (4)
10. Waqar Younis. (3)
11. Glenn McGrath. (1)

Crappy writeup


Batting

The great Viv Richards leads the line up with a 100 against his name in a WC final. He was pretty much the best batsman in world ups until Sachin came about. Sangakarra, one of the best players of all time in any format and Martin Crowe, player of the tournament in 92 WC, further cements the middle order. Crowe was phenomenal in that world cup both as a player and a captain. Ganguly and Jayasuriya open the batting. Ganguly, an all time ODI great, has exceptional ICC record. Jayasuriya, man of the series for WC 1996, will be the X factor upfront. Watson will play the role of enforcer/finisher in the line up with support of Imran Khan. The batting order may not be the exact same one as listed. If situation demands, Watson may come in ahead of Khan or even Crowe.

Bowling

Imran Khan, Alan Donald, Zaheer Khan and Mitchell Starc is a ridiculous pace bowling line-up. Donald was consistent for SA in WCs as his records reflects while Zaheer Khan had a great world cup for India in 2003 (despite the poor performance in the final) and was possibly India's second most important player in 2011 World cup win. Even in the 2011 final where his final figures were not good due to leaking runs in the end, he pretty much set up the win by choking SriLanka at the beginning of the innings. Starc was the best player in 2011 WC final and the very reason Oz won that WC. Mushtaq Ahmed takes up the role of spinner having played the same role in 92 WC win for Pakistan with excellent figures. Watson and Jayasuriya join the line up with both capable of bowling 10 overs each. Other bowling options are Richards and Ganguly making it 9 bowling options!

Summary - 10 out of 11 players have better record in ICC tournaments compared to their career one. (Borderline for Donald too). Overall team has great pedigree in terms of historically great ODI players with match winning performances in world cups.

The Red Viper writeup


The Batting Unit:-

Opening the batting for us, we have the ultra-destructive pair of Virender Sehwag and Adam Gilchrist, which would put fear in any bowling attack's minds. Two of the greatest openers of all time, both Viru and Gilly were uber attacking batsmen who could take advantage of the power-play and set the platform for the middle-order to build on it. At 1-down, we have Mr Consistent and super-dependable Jacques Kallis. One of the greatest batsman in ODI history, Kallis would provide some solidity to the batting unit. At 4, we have possibly one of the Top-3 batsman of ODI history in Virat Kohli. A supremely talented batsman with a range of shots as good as any. Kohli is a master of pacing his innings and playing depending on the situation. He can either anchor the innings or play the role of the finisher. At 5, we have Javed Miandad. One of the best finishers of all time, Miandad was the pioneer of finishers in ODIs. He was hugely influential when Pakistan won the Cricket World Cup in 1992, as he was 2nd highest run-scorer in that World Cup. At 6, we have Scott Styris. A powerful batsman who thrived in the role of a finisher for the New Zealand team from early 2000s to 2010s, Styris would provide us with quick scoring with his ability to strike the ball and accelerate during the death overs. At 7, we have the swashbuckling Lance Klusener. The best finisher in World Cup history. Zulu's ability to accelerate and clear ropes at will in death overs would be vital while posting a huge total or chasing down one. Andy Roberts, Muttiah Muralitharan, Waqar Younis and Glenn McGrath complete the tail. While nothing spectacular, Andy Roberts and Muttiah Muralitharan could hit a couple of boundaries and get a quickfire 10/15 odd runs.

All in all, the batting line-up is really balanced. It has openers who exploit the new hard ball and destroy the opposition bowling attack in the power-play and provide the platform for the middle-order, middle-order batsmen who could anchor the innings and build on the start provided by the top-order, finishers who can guide the team to a great total or chase down the total by perfectly pacing the innings.

The Bowling Attack:-

The bowling-attack comprises of Glenn McGrath, Sir Andy Roberts, Waqar Younis, Muttiah Muralitharan, Lance Klusener, Jacques Kallis and Scott Styris. In Glenn McGrath, we have the the greatest bowler bowler in World Cup history. The highest wicket-taker in World Cup history. And in Andy Roberts and Waqar Younis, we have another two All-Time Great fast bowlers. McGrath and Roberts would spearhead the bowling attack and share the new ball. McGrath with his line and length and Roberts with his brute pace and bounce would complement each other extremely well. Our first change would be Waqar Younis, who would give our spearhead bowlers a breather without us losing much in terms of wicket-tacking ability. However, we won't bowl Waqar much in the initial stages of the game. We will preserve him for the middle overs when the ball gets old and starts to reverse and for the death overs where he can be an absolute menace to the opposition batsmen with his pace and ability to bowl yorkers at will. Muttiah Muralitharan would be our primary spinner. The 2nd highest wicket-taker in World Cup history, Murali would suffocate the opposition batting unit in the middle overs by stopping the flow of the runs and taking a couple of wickets. With McGrath, Roberts and Waqar already cleaning up then top-order, it would allow Murali to do what he does best. Dominate in the middle-overs and take the game away from the opposition. Lance Klusener would be the fourth seamer. Plenty of variety in his bowling arsenal. Could bowl quick but also can be very tricky and slippery to play against when he takes the pace off the ball. Good reverse swing bowler, can bowl yorkers but his biggest weapon are the off-cutters which are incredibly difficult to hit against. Jacques Kallis is the fifth seamer of the attack. Another fine bowler. Pre-shoulder injury, Kallis was fast and was an extremely dangerous bowler who had a knack of picking up wickets. Post-shoulder injury, he lost the pace but mastered the art of swing and seam movement. What he lost in pace, he compensated it with his line and length. Scott Styris would be our 7th bowler. A very handy bowler, Styris offers us some variety to our bowling attack with his medium-pace and off-cutters.

Overall, the bowling attack has plenty of ammo and variety in it. It has bowlers who can bowl at a genuine pace, swing the new ball as well as the old ball using reverse swing and the greatest spinner in World Cup history. We have the Top-2 bowlers in World Cup history in McGrath and Murali. McGrath was the master of line and length and setting up batsmen, Roberts had a mean bouncer in him, especially his slow bouncer which fooled almost every batsmen and Waqar who offers elite reverse swing as well as unplayable yorkers in death overs. And Murali was the spin king. With Klusener, Kallis and Styris supporting them, we have a bowling attack with plenty of variety and can restrict any team's batting unit.

The Opposition - (crappycraperson):-

Crappy has got a very good team but I feel I will win this. I have a much better bowling attack. I have got simply got much better bowlers who had incredible record in ICC tournaments. Genuine match-winners with their bowling. While Crappy has got a very good bowling attack as well, I don't think its anywhere as good as mine. In terms of performances, match winning spells and economic bowling.

In terms of batting, I have got a better opening pair. Sehwag & Gilchrist has the edge over Dada & Sanath. The sheer destructiveness of Sehwag and Gilchrist in the power-play would be tough to match for any opening pair. A combined average strike-rate of around 100 is simply outstanding. The middle-order is close. While Viv is the best batsmen from either team, the next best middle-order batsmen are from my team in Kallis, Kohli and Miandad. May be Crowe probably manages to sneak in between those three. Anyway, I think the middle-order battle is close. I like my middle-order more because it can deal with both the fast bowling and spin really well. However, I won't argue if someone rates Crappy's middle order over mine. Its certainly debatable.

Now to the lower middle-order/finishers, I simply have got much better finishers here. Kohli, Miandad, Klusener and Styris are all outstanding finishers. If you compare it to Crappy, his two main finishers are Watson and Imran Khan. Crowe was a good batsman, but he wasn't a finisher. Majority of Watson's exploits were really as an opener or top order batsman. He still had a good record coming down late in the batting order but nowhere near as impactful as while opening the batting. Imran in ODIs doesn't have that good batting record, especially in World Cup. And, if you take away those knocks against Sri Lanka when they had just started playing cricket at International level and had a poor team, his record looks quite underwhelming.

This would be a great fascinating match between two great sides. Batting both are more or less of the same level but my superior bowling attack would be the difference here. My bowling attack has got two of the best bowlers in World Cup history who have produced plenty of match-winning spells, at the biggest stages against the best teams. Would do so here again!
 

ChrisNelson

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Two very strong line-ups. However I think Viper edges it with a fantastic opening bowling partnership of Waqar & McGrath. He also has the better spinner in Murali and with Roberts & Klusener bowling their allocation I think he has the edge on bowling.

Batting wise it's a bit closer and you could make a case for either side. But I like the balance of the Viper line-up, with destruction at the top then the slightly more held back nature of Kallis and Virat, 2 of the finest batsmen of this generation. Then if all else fails in comes Styris at 6 with an average of 50, and Klusener at 7 with an average of 78 and unsurprisingly a S/R well in excess of 100.

I like both teams but over a series I think Viper wins it.
 

The Cat

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I am going to have to take my time voting here.

The additions have made both teams awesome.
 

KM

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Watto in a draft final. Feeling quite nostalgic.
 

Norris

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Wow, amazing teams. Absolutely love the line-ups from both sides. Brilliant team building from both.

My very initial thoughts or rather nitpickings I would have is below.
  • Crappy has the better Top order I feel (Just about). But the lack of a proper big hitter who can come in and hit the big shots after the 40th Over and just accelerate the run rate that tad bit more concerns me. But with the sheer talent and run aggregators of the batting Unit, you can presume there really might not be a need for it, although it would be nice to have. The presence of Klusener in TRV's team makes an impact for me in this regard.
  • The bowling is ridiculously good from both sides as well, especially the options each team has. But I would like to know Crappy's (Also Starc was match winner in the 2015 Final, not 2011 Final, so that might need an edit) Opening Pair since that is something I am unsure of. Is it going to be Imran/Donald and followed by Starc and Zaheer ? Not sure how a strike bowler would fare with a used ball, and tbh that applies to Waqar as well. I slightly prefer Crappy's bowling here since he genuinely has a lot of variation in his bowling. Leg Spin, off spin, Line and length, Swing, Medium pace, I mean, the Man has it all covered.
  • Captaincy. This one is not even debatable. Imran over Kohli on any day. And in such close matches, it genuinely makes a lot of difference to have the right man at the helm who can make the right decisions for the team. Kohli for all his splendour and aggression hasn't done it consistently enough for me.
Overall, I slight prefer Crappy's team, but I will wait for for more opinions before making a decision.
 

crappycraperson

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Two very strong line-ups. However I think Viper edges it with a fantastic opening bowling partnership of Waqar & McGrath. He also has the better spinner in Murali and with Roberts & Klusener bowling their allocation I think he has the edge on bowling.

Batting wise it's a bit closer and you could make a case for either side. But I like the balance of the Viper line-up, with destruction at the top then the slightly more held back nature of Kallis and Virat, 2 of the finest batsmen of this generation. Then if all else fails in comes Styris at 6 with an average of 50, and Klusener at 7 with an average of 78 and unsurprisingly a S/R well in excess of 100.

I like both teams but over a series I think Viper wins it.
I am fine if you think bowling is better but I have to contest the batting part. Viv is in a different league to any of his batsmen. Sanga has better ICC record than Kallis and also had more impact than kallis on these tournaments. Kohli may be an ODI great now but I don't think for this draft he ought to rated higher than Crowe. He simply does not have a tournament defining performances like Crowe did for 92 WC for ICC tournaments. Coming to openers, I prefer mine but I am ok with people calling it a draw. Watson is a also a better bet lower down than Styris. Klusener is a plus point in his favor, that's about it.
 

VP

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This was tight. Went for the Viper just for the better bowling attack.
 

crappycraperson

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Wow, amazing teams. Absolutely love the line-ups from both sides. Brilliant team building from both.

My very initial thoughts or rather nitpickings I would have is below.
  • Crappy has the better Top order I feel (Just about). But the lack of a proper big hitter who can come in and hit the big shots after the 40th Over and just accelerate the run rate that tad bit more concerns me. But with the sheer talent and run aggregators of the batting Unit, you can presume there really might not be a need for it, although it would be nice to have. The presence of Klusener in TRV's team makes an impact for me in this regard.
  • The bowling is ridiculously good from both sides as well, especially the options each team has. But I would like to know Crappy's (Also Starc was match winner in the 2015 Final, not 2011 Final, so that might need an edit) Opening Pair since that is something I am unsure of. Is it going to be Imran/Donald and followed by Starc and Zaheer ? Not sure how a strike bowler would fare with a used ball, and tbh that applies to Waqar as well. I slightly prefer Crappy's bowling here since he genuinely has a lot of variation in his bowling. Leg Spin, off spin, Line and length, Swing, Medium pace, I mean, the Man has it all covered.
  • Captaincy. This one is not even debatable. Imran over Kohli on any day. And in such close matches, it genuinely makes a lot of difference to have the right man at the helm who can make the right decisions for the team. Kohli for all his splendour and aggression hasn't done it consistently enough for me.
Overall, I slight prefer Crappy's team, but I will wait for for more opinions before making a decision.
Whoa I didn't even notice the captiancy bit. Kohli as a captain for ICC tournaments has no pedigree to speak of, I am afraid. Captaincy can be a big factor in cricket. I have 2 great leaders in my team in Imran and Crowe.

Also about lack of big hitter, Watson is there at 7 for that exact reason. I could have opened with him too but I kept him in lower order for that role. No arguments from me that Klusners is better option that him for that role though. Also I am banking more on my players like Ganguly, Viv and Sanga to bat through the innings. They have been known for the same. Essentially my top 5 should be able to finish the game even against his bowling.

Opening bowling wise it's spolit for choice for me. I guess Imran would go for Donald and Starc to begin with and he himself would come in early on too. Zaheer was brilliant for us with older ball in 2011 WC and won us games bowling after 40 over mark so he is a good option with older ball easily.
 

2mufc0

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Opening bowling wise it's spolit for choice for me. I guess Imran would go for Donald and Starc to begin with and he himself would come in early on too. Zaheer was brilliant for us with older ball in 2011 WC and won us games bowling after 40 over mark so he is a good option with older ball easily.
Imran is probably the more skillful of your bowlers (as in he was dangerous with old and new ball) so i don't mind him coming 3rd/4th. Donald + Starc/Zaheer opening would be the way to go.
 

2mufc0

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Murali is a big plus for TRV so much better than Crappy's spinner, but TRV has no one like Viv in his middle order.

It's a close one.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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It's close, and though I'm voting against McGrath, Murali and Klusener at 7 I have to go with Crappy's superb top five and Imran Khan as captain over Kohli.

I prefer Viper's bowling attack but Crappy's unit is very nicely balanced so I could see it holding its own. Batting has always been the most crucial factor in my voting in these limited over match-ups, and given I don't have Viper that far ahead in other areas I'm going with the blend, the stats and the big match-winning record of Crappy's order.
 

The Red Viper

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Wow, amazing teams. Absolutely love the line-ups from both sides. Brilliant team building from both.

My very initial thoughts or rather nitpickings I would have is below.
  • Crappy has the better Top order I feel (Just about). But the lack of a proper big hitter who can come in and hit the big shots after the 40th Over and just accelerate the run rate that tad bit more concerns me. But with the sheer talent and run aggregators of the batting Unit, you can presume there really might not be a need for it, although it would be nice to have. The presence of Klusener in TRV's team makes an impact for me in this regard.
  • The bowling is ridiculously good from both sides as well, especially the options each team has. But I would like to know Crappy's (Also Starc was match winner in the 2015 Final, not 2011 Final, so that might need an edit) Opening Pair since that is something I am unsure of. Is it going to be Imran/Donald and followed by Starc and Zaheer ? Not sure how a strike bowler would fare with a used ball, and tbh that applies to Waqar as well. I slightly prefer Crappy's bowling here since he genuinely has a lot of variation in his bowling. Leg Spin, off spin, Line and length, Swing, Medium pace, I mean, the Man has it all covered.
  • Captaincy. This one is not even debatable. Imran over Kohli on any day. And in such close matches, it genuinely makes a lot of difference to have the right man at the helm who can make the right decisions for the team. Kohli for all his splendour and aggression hasn't done it consistently enough for me.
Overall, I slight prefer Crappy's team, but I will wait for for more opinions before making a decision.
Hey mate, cheers for the feedback.

But I disagree about Crappy having a better bowling attack than me.

In terms of spin, he has Sanath and Mushtaq but may be Mushy's googlies aside, they both will take the ball away from the right hander and bring it in vs the left handler. So, thats not really much variety tbh.

The two left arm pacers do offer him some variation but it won't be enough to trump the sheer genius and match-winning ability of McGrath, who is by far the greatest bowler in World Cup history.

For me, the main reason why I feel I have a better bowling attack is Murali. He is the trump card here. He was a genuine match-winner who could change the course of the game in the vital middle-overs.
 

The Red Viper

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I am fine if you think bowling is better but I have to contest the batting part. Viv is in a different league to any of his batsmen. Sanga has better ICC record than Kallis and also had more impact than kallis on these tournaments. Kohli may be an ODI great now but I don't think for this draft he ought to rated higher than Crowe. He simply does not have a tournament defining performances like Crowe did for 92 WC for ICC tournaments. Coming to openers, I prefer mine but I am ok with people calling it a draw. Watson is a also a better bet lower down than Styris. Klusener is a plus point in his favor, that's about it.
Disagree about Sanga being better than Kallis. Kallis was far more consistent in the world-cups. Sanga had a great world cup in 2015 which kinda papered over his ICC tournament performances. Not to mention 2015 World Cup was basically being played on roads. Australian pitches were batting friendly like crazy.

And, Watson isn't a better lower middle-order batsman than Styris. Especially when you consider ICC tournaments. Styris record in ICC tournament is spectacular. And, majority of Watson's exploits in ICC tournaments with the bat was as an opener. My lower middle-order is better and more explosive. Also, with the likes of Virat or Miandad playing the role of an anchor and finisher, I have the perfect balance in lower-middle order.

That brings me to Viv. Viv is the best batsman in this match. But, the likes of McGrath and Murali are the perfect bowlers who can get Viv out. McGrath with his patience can bowl at a particular line and length and frustrate Viv into giving away his wicket. Both Sachin and Lara didn't do too well against McGrath. Now, I am not saying its absolutely certain Viv would struggle as well. But, if there's a bowler who can outfox Viv and get his wicket, its McGrath. Then there's Murali. Viv never really played against genuine top quality spin bowling. While he wasn't a liability against top quality spin bowling, but the only time he did face top quality spin bowling was for a brief period in the 70s against India's spin quartet. Chandra, Bedi and Prassana really troubled him.
 

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TRV's got this. Superior bowling, and the only reason Crappy has a shout is Viv.
 

crappycraperson

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Disagree about Sanga being better than Kallis. Kallis was far more consistent in the world-cups. Sanga had a great world cup in 2015 which kinda papered over his ICC tournament performances. Not to mention 2015 World Cup was basically being played on roads. Australian pitches were batting friendly like crazy.

And, Watson isn't a better lower middle-order batsman than Styris. Especially when you consider ICC tournaments. Styris record in ICC tournament is spectacular. And, majority of Watson's exploits in ICC tournaments with the bat was as an opener. My lower middle-order is better and more explosive. Also, with the likes of Virat or Miandad playing the role of an anchor and finisher, I have the perfect balance in lower-middle order.

That brings me to Viv. Viv is the best batsman in this match. But, the likes of McGrath and Murali are the perfect bowlers who can get Viv out. McGrath with his patience can bowl at a particular line and length and frustrate Viv into giving away his wicket. Both Sachin and Lara didn't do too well against McGrath. Now, I am not saying its absolutely certain Viv would struggle as well. But, if there's a bowler who can outfox Viv and get his wicket, its McGrath. Then there's Murali. Viv never really played against genuine top quality spin bowling. While he wasn't a liability against top quality spin bowling, but the only time he did face top quality spin bowling was for a brief period in the 70s against India's spin quartet. Chandra, Bedi and Prassana really troubled him.
- First Sanga had a great 2011 WC too, he was SRL's best player that tournament even if Dilshan had more runs.
- If you are are doing the route of brining in modern day flat pitches as an argument then Kohli's stock falls even further in this draft.
- Watson has a better record than Styris in WCs and more signature performances to fall back upon. Position argument can also be applied to Styris. He got almost all his runs in ICC tournaments batting at 4 and not playing the role of finisher at 6.

Viv, bowlers argument goes both ways. He is the best batsmen in this draft after Sachin to take on both Mcgrath and Murali.
 

crappycraperson

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I kind of figured that people would rate his bowling better just because of Murali but I don't get the overwhelming response in that way.

- Mcgrath is the best ICC bowler. No arguments on that.
- After that Younis can not be seriously rated higher than Starc for this draft. Starc had one of the best bowling efforts to win his team the cup in 2011. Only reason to rate Younis more for this draft would be to ignore the actual context of this draft.
- Then I have Imran khan whose ICC record as a bowler is actually better than his overall record. Andy Robert's worse.
- My fourth pacer Zaheer Khan is significantly better than Klusener too.

If you had to draw up a bowling attack out of this you would go - Mcgrath, Starc, Imran, Klusener (for extra all rounder role), Murali.

So like I said he has that extra edge due to Murali but overall my pace quartert is better IMO.
 

idmanager

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Surely, the team with the most South Africans should choke in the final? :smirk:
 

Mani

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When you have Miandad in your team why give captainship to Kohli?
Gone with Viper,both batting line line up looks equal with viper getting upper hand with his bowling.Also I can also see he got better LMO compared to crappy.
 

ChrisNelson

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I kind of figured that people would rate his bowling better just because of Murali but I don't get the overwhelming response in that way.

- Mcgrath is the best ICC bowler. No arguments on that.
- After that Younis can not be seriously rated higher than Starc for this draft. Starc had one of the best bowling efforts to win his team the cup in 2011. Only reason to rate Younis more for this draft would be to ignore the actual context of this draft.
- Then I have Imran khan whose ICC record as a bowler is actually better than his overall record. Andy Robert's worse.
- My fourth pacer Zaheer Khan is significantly better than Klusener too.

If you had to draw up a bowling attack out of this you would go - Mcgrath, Starc, Imran, Klusener (for extra all rounder role), Murali.

So like I said he has that extra edge due to Murali but overall my pace quartert is better IMO.

Viper has 2 bowlers with over 90 wickets at an average of under 20. That is nothing short of phenomenal. Yes I agree Starc's average of 15 is a fantastic achievement but he's only taken 28 wickets, so if you're talking about the context of the draft that is very important.

You also mention Imran Khan's record in ICC compared to overall, yet his S/R in both batting and bowling is lower in tournaments, so again this is key in limited overs cricket.

As I said in my last post when I voted, this matchup is very close, there's no denying you have a great XI but I do think Viper edges it slightly.
 

crappycraperson

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Viper has 2 bowlers with over 90 wickets at an average of under 20. That is nothing short of phenomenal. Yes I agree Starc's average of 15 is a fantastic achievement but he's only taken 28 wickets, so if you're talking about the context of the draft that is very important.

You also mention Imran Khan's record in ICC compared to overall, yet his S/R in both batting and bowling is lower in tournaments, so again this is key in limited overs cricket.

As I said in my last post when I voted, this matchup is very close, there's no denying you have a great XI but I do think Viper edges it slightly.
Imran's bowling SR is significantly better for ICC tournaments than career one. 30 vs 41. And these numbers include his bowling from 92 when he was past his best in terms of bowling at least.

I agree that consistency across WCs should be valuable in this draft but you can't ignore singular performance across a tournament as big as a WC either. The performance that crowned Starc as the best player for that WC too. I also comapred him with Waqar. Murali and Mcgrath would ofcourse be rated better than him.
 

2mufc0

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Commiserations @crappycraperson built a great team.

Congratulations @The Red Viper , deserved winner in the end. You can now put this achievement on your CV :drool:.

Thanks to all the participants hope you guys enjoyed it.