Redcafe's All-Time Top 20. Stoppers | Results

harms · Aug 8, 2019

18. Ciro Ferrara. 95 points

Ciro Ferrara had won 2 Serie A titles with Napoli — while Maradona produced magic up front, the young defender made sure that everything is safe at the back. His impressive performances earned him a transfer to Juventus, with whom he had won 5 more league titles and Champions League. Like Costacurta, he was outshined by the likes of Baresi, Maldini and Nesta, but his achievements speak for themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that if Ferrara had played for any other nation out there, he would've been rated even higher.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

17. Sol Campbell. 97 points

Described by Sol Campbell as "one of the greatest minds in football", Sol Campbell had an illustrious playing career representing England, Arsenal and Tottenham. He was one of the most physically imposing defenders that I've ever seen — and due to his skill in the air he was also a danger in the opposition's penalty box. His most famous goal came in 2006 Champions League final, when he had opened the score for Arsenal; at that point Arsenal had the best defensive run of any team in the history of the competition, with opponents failing to score against Arsenal in ten consecutive matches and a total of 995 minutes. Sadly for the gunners, Barcelona had score 2 and denied them the title. Campbell was also one of the key players for the Invincibles — an Arsenal side that went unbeaten in the 2003/04 Premier League season. His international career was equally impressive — in 2006, he became the only player to have represented England in six consecutive major tournaments, playing in the 1996, 2000 and 2004 UEFA European Championships; and the 1998, 2002 and 2006 FIFA World Cups. He was named in the Teams of the Tournament for the 2002 World Cup and at Euro 2004.

The Guardian said:
A few weeks back, the sports minister, Helen Grant, arranged a summit at Whitehall to discuss why there are so few black managers and coaches in the game. Senior figures from the Football Association were there, along with the Premier League, the Professional Footballers’ Association and the Football League. There were guests from Kick It Out and Show Racism the Red Card and Sol Campbell also received an invitation, as an ex-England player who is frustrated, understandably, by the lack of opportunities.

What Campbell does not appear to realise, perhaps, is that the best way to get a point across is without ego or too much self-esteem.

On this occasion he wanted the FA’s technical director, Dan Ashworth, to explain why Gary Neville had been fast-tracked through the system to become one of Roy Hodgson’s assistants with the England team. Ashworth started talking about the favourable impression Neville had made on Hodgson and the players and was running through the processes that were involved when Campbell put out his hand to interrupt him. This is when things started to get a little strange.

“But I am Sol Campbell.”

As you might imagine, that isn’t a particularly easy sentence to come back from. Ashworth did his best to continue because, well, what else could he do? But it is fair to say the entire room had been engulfed in awkwardness and when Ashworth stopped talking there was another tumbleweed moment. Campbell, hand out, ended the conversation in the same way he had started it.

“But I am Sol Campbell.”

He was correct. But whether he gets an invitation the next time there is one of these discussions is not entirely clear.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

16. John Terry. 107 points

Yet to win his first draft game*, John Terry is still considered to be one of the greatest defenders that England had ever produced. He was named UEFA Club Defender of the Year thrice (in 2005, 2008 and 2009), Chelsea's Player of the year twice (in 2001 and 2006) and PFA Player's Player of the Year once, in 2005, when Chelsea had set the league record for the least goals conceded, most clean sheets and most points gained.

His best football came in uber-defensive teams with low defensive line, but you can't really argue that when he was at his best, he was a beast. He cleared every cross and denied strikers sure goals with his spot-on tackles. When the team tried to squeeze the needed result, he often scored from the set pieces (his overall career goal-tally is a respectful 68). Perhaps Chelsea was unlucky that they've missed on the big European trophies when that Mourinho side was at its best and Terry fecked up his ultimate hero moment by slipping during the crucial penalty they could've given Chelsea the 2008 Champions League title. His generally cnutish behaviour and racial abuse allegations, alongside some comedy moments like 2011/12 full-kit celebration, made him one of the lease likeable footballers around, but if we're being honest, we can not deny his quality.

*That's not actually true.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

15. Claudio Gentile. 120 points

One of the best defenders of the late 70's and 80's, Claudio Gentile is always mentioned as one of the football's most notable hard-men. Ironically, he spent most of his career playing alongside Gaetano Scirea, one of the cleanest and most intelligent defenders ever to grace the pitch. But maybe the difference in temperament is what made them such a perfect fit. Gentile had played all over the defensive line — first as a left back and later as a right/center back hybrid in zona mista, as a stopper and sometimes as a dedicated man-marker. It was the last role that will bring him his infamous reputation — during the 1982 World Cup he had kicked the shit out of the likes of Zico and Maradona, basically denying them the possibility to play their natural football. But he wasn't always like that, and, often playing in a more reserved manner and targeting the ball instead of a player, he became a part of one of the best defensive units of all-time for Juventus and Italy — Cabrini, Scirea, Gentile and one of Brio/Cuccureddu & co. made it incredibly hard for anyone to score past them.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

14. José Santamaría. 144 points

The legendary Uruguayan defender was the defensive rock on which the uber-attacking Real Madrid side of the 50's was built. Despite being often forced to face multiple opponents at the same time, he cleared the ball time and again, showcasing his outstanding anticipation and heading skills. With Madrid he'll win 6 La Liga titles and 4 European Cups in a row — until this day an unprecedented record. But he was already 28-years-old when he came to Europe, and before that he had an illustrious career at Uruguay with Nacional. He had won 5 more league titles and also became a part of the 1954 World Cup All-Star team.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

13. Diego Godin. 149 points

For a time it looked like Pep's Guardiola had changed the football completely. The new rule was — if you want to win titles, you need to play possession-oriented attacking football, there's no other way to succeed. Of course, the likes of Inter or Chelsea still managed to win in cup competitions, but it took an immense amount of luck — and on a distance of a league campaign, attack always wins. That was true until Atletico Madrid came around. For a while under Simeone they showed signs of serious progress, winning multiple Europa Leagues and even reaching a Champions League final. But the 2013/14 season showed that there is an alternative. The side that was built around its defensive unit lead by no other than Diego Godin had managed to finish first in La Liga, ahead of Lionel Messi's Barcelona and Cristiano Ronaldo's Real Madrid. It has to be one of the greatest success stories in modern history, and the Uruguayan was right at the heart of it. A few days later they will face Real Madrid in their 2nd CL final in the modern era — and Godin will score his 2nd goal in the CL finals. The luck was not on his side though, as he would lose both.

Despite his skillset being more suited to the 90's, it's not debatable that Diego Godin is one of the outstanding defenders of this century. He had proved his quality not only at the club level — with Uruguay he became the Copa America winners in 2011; and during his 14-years spell in the team, Urugyay had became one of the toughest opponents to face for any country, regularly reaching play-off stages of major tournaments. Godin had played at 8 major international tournaments and he's currently the most experienced player in the national team's history with 131 caps.

harms · Aug 8, 2019

11. Lilian Thuram, Oscar Ruggeri. 155 points

A World Cup and European Championship winner; one of the greatest players that France had ever produced. Lilian Thuram didn't care where he was playing. He would be world class as a right back for an all-conquering French side of the 98-00; on the right of a back three he would win a cup double at Parma; for Juventus he regularly played both centrally and wide; in the 2006 World Cup, returning after his international retirement, he played centrally next to Gallas and earned a MotM award in the semi-final against Portugal, repeating his achievement from 8 years ago.

Thuram was an extremely dominant, consistent, athletic and attentive footballer, who was considered by pundits to be one of the best defenders in the world in his prime. As a defender, he was known for his strength, pace, stamina and his outstanding physical, tactical, and technical attributes, as well as his elegance, ability to read the game, his heavy marking of opponents, and his aggressive tackling, which made him difficult to beat in one on one situations; he also excelled in the air.

El Cabezon ("The Big-Headed One") had been enormously successful during his career. Known for his rough style of play when marking opposing players and aerial ability, Ruggeri is considered one of the all-time best defenders to come out of Argentina.

When one speaks about the 1986 World Cup, most people think about Diego Maradona, but Oscar Ruggeri was also a key piece to Argentina's team. He scored the third goal that gave Argentina a 3-1 victory against South Korea in the first match, and led Argentina to achieve the best defensive record in the tournament with only 5 goals conceded in 7 games. In 1990, after a disappointing first round where Argentina were beaten by Cameroon in the opening match, the defending champions managed to reach the final after beating the favourites Brazil in the round of sixteen and the hosts Italy after penalties in the semifinal. Conceding just 4 goals in 7 matches, Maradona and Ruggeri were not able to repeat the success of Mexico 1986 as they lost the final against Germany.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

10. Nemanja Vidić. 166 points

It was Nemanja Vidić's arrival that finally solidified our defence and made it one of the best in the world. His partnership with Rio was the stuff of the dreams, really, they've complimented each other perfectly — elegant and intelligent Rio shined next to intimidating and dominant Vidić. The whole defensive unit was so good that it guaranteed United prolonged success even after Cristiano got sold to Real Madrid. In 2008/09 United went on a record run of 14 consecutive clean-sheets in the Premier League with Vidić getting Player of the Year award. He clinched his second award three seasons later, becoming the first defender to achieve this, and the third overall behind Thierry Henry and Cristiano Ronaldo. In 2010 he officially took over the United captaincy from Neville, leading us to another CL final — third in 4 years.

His national team achievements were also impressive. Vidić was part of Serbia and Montenegro's "Famous Four" defence, alongside Mladen Krstajić, Ivica Dragutinović and Goran Gavrančić, that conceded just one goal during the ten 2006 FIFA World Cup qualification matches, setting a new record for the fewest goals conceded.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

9. Giuseppe Bergomi. 173 points

Bergomi made his international debut in 1982 in a friendly game against East Germany, aged only 18 years and 3 months, making him the youngest player to feature in a match for Italy post-World War II. A few months later he would be man-marking Karl-Heinz Rummenigge in the World Cup final. With an impressive set of moustache he was probably the oldest-looking 18-years old of all-time; his appearance was affectionately noted by the fans, who had called him "Lo zio", "The uncle", because of it.

He held the record for most appearances for Inter Milan until Javier Zanetti broke it in 2011. The team infamously underperformed trough the 80's, winning only 1 Serie A title — although Bergomi had reached 4 UEFA Cup finals, winning 3 of them. He was more fortunate with the national team — in 1982 he had won the World Cup, in 1990 he had lead Italy to the 3rd place — that team will be forever remembered for its defensive resilience; their 7 games included five consecutive wins and as many clean sheets, for a total of 518 minutes without conceding a goal and the best defensive record overall. Funnily enough, despite playing in 4 World Cups, he never participated in World Cup qualifications.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

8. Paolo Maldini. 183 points

Like Bergomi and Thuram, we'll definitely see Maldini in the fullback list as well, probably rated even higher. There hadn't been many defenders better than Paolo Maldini. Some would even argue that he was the best ever — clever, fast, physically imposing and such a clean tackler (even though he famously said that if you need to make a tackle, you've already made a mistake). A handsome bastard, a one club-man and an absolute gentleman on and off the pitch — it's like he couldn't really been better even if he wanted to.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

7. Pietro Vierchowod. 203 points

"Lo Zar" ("The Tsar", a nickname that referenced both his dominance on the pitch and Slavic roots) was one of the greatest man-markers that football had ever seen. Incredibly, he was equally comfortable handling an archetypical number 9 like van Basten and a tricky magician like Maradona — both regarded him as one of their toughest opponents. Maradona's description of Vierchowod was absolutely spot-on: "He was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn’t stand him anymore". He had spent combined 3 seasons playing for the Italian giants — Juventus, AC Milan & Roma; but his best years were spent in Sampdoria, and he even led them to an unlikely Serie A title in 1990/91. Only 6 players had matched his tally of Serie A appearances, three of them goalkeepers — Vierchowod had played 562 league games in Italy.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

6. Alessandro Nesta. 251 points

Nesta's points were split between 2 categories — otherwise I have little doubt that he would've topped this list. He was the perfect center back and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he is the stand out defender of the XXI century. Because of a cruel joke of fate it was not Nesta, but Cannavaro (who was always overshadowed by Alessandro before that) that brought Italy its 4th World Cup title — Nesta got injured in the final game and hadn't recovered in time to participate in the rest of their glorious journey. Nesta combined physicality and athleticism of a pure stopper with elegance, guile and ball-playing skills of an archetypal libero, even though he rarely made attacking runs forward.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

5. Karlheinz Förster. 263 points

Karlheinz Förster only played for 2 clubs — VfB Stuttgart and Olympique de Marseille; he had won Bundesliga once and League 1 twice during his whole career. His true calling was the international football though. He made his debut for the Federal Republic of Germany as a substitute against Brazil in 1978 then made rapid progress to help win the 1980 UEFA European Championship against Belgium in Rome two years later. He played all the Germans' matches in the FIFA World Cup runners-up campaigns in both 1982 in Spain and in 1986 in Mexico. Förster, whose brother Bernd played alongside him in defence for both club and country, was voted the FRG's Footballer of the Year in 1982 and twice got chosen for the Euros Team of the Tournament (in 1980 and 1984). He was a world-class man-marker that tried to outsmart the opponent and not just to kick him to death — the usual tactics of the 80's. The list of his famous "victims" included Michel Platini and Hugo Sanchez.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

4. Jaap Stam. 321 points

He was a one-man wall at the back of our treble-winning side, sniffing the danger out and mercilessly tackling anything that tried to get to Schmeichel's penalty area. There are many situations in life scarier than Jaap Stam running at you at full speed to win the ball. It's such a shame that he had only been at United for 3 years — and those 3 years included 3 Premier League titles, an FA Cup and a Champions League win, alongside with 2 UEFA Club Best Defender of the Year awards and 3 inclusions in Premier League's team of the season. For Netherlands he had reached 3 semi-finals in major competitions, as the ultimate underachievers of the world football failed to win anything of note.

Ryan Giggs said:
Once Jaap’s pace took him into the channel ahead of an attacking player they had no chance. He was so strong it was a mismatch. He would not be beaten.

Sir Alex Ferguson on selling Jaap Stam said:
It was one of the mistakes I made – hopefully I haven’t made too many – but that was one.

Teddy Sheringham said:
Jaap’s a man-mountain, but as quick as a Ferrari. I’ve heard some critics say he was slow but that’s absolute rubbish. As a man-marker, he’s the best I’ve seen. When you play against international forwards like Batistuta, Ronaldo, Inzaghi… their one thought is to score a goal. But one-on-one, Jaap was the man to diffuse any situation. People would try and run him, outwit him and he always had an answer

harms · Aug 9, 2019

3. Fabio Cannavaro. 385 points

Fabio Cannavaro is one of the very few defenders that won Ballon d'Or. What makes it even more special, he is the only stopper ever to win one — while Beckenbauer and Sammer got a lot of credit for their playmaking and participation in the attacking phase of the game, Cannavaro got it for one thing. Defending.

His performances in the 2006 World Cup were really second to none. He played like a man possessed, making countless clearances, tackles and interceptions as if he knew what was going to happen 2 minutes before it actually happened. Italy was hit by multiple issues — first, there was the infamous Calciopoli, then their best defender, Alessandro Nesta, got injured in the group stage... well, Cannavaro, or Il Muro di Berlino" ("The Berlin Wall"), as he would be known after 2006, didn't care about that.

As a defender, Cannavaro was known in particular for his concentration, anticipation, awareness and positional sense. Despite his relatively small stature for a defender, he was highly regarded for his aerial ability, courtesy of his elevation, physical strength, athleticism, timing and heading accuracy, which enabled him to outjump larger players, and made him particularly adept at defending crosses, or at scoring with his head from set-pieces. Throughout his career, he made a name for himself as a dynamic, consistent, tenacious and complete defender, known for his acceleration, speed, reactions, and agility, as well as his tackling ability, and in particular, his precise sliding challenges. Due to his wide range of skills, he excelled in a zonal marking system, but was also an excellent man-marker.

Amy Lawrence from The Guardian said:
Cannavaro has been the most accomplished defender at this World Cup (in 2006). He has been the only permanent member of Italy's ever-changing back line. He has been imperious. Rigorous. Absolutely in charge. Standing tall at 5ft 9in, he is dwarfed by just about every other centre-half in Germany, yet he has risen serenely above them all, seemingly without a bead of sweat.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

2. Marcel Desailly. 408 points

Marcel Desailly always preferred to play as a center back, even though he was deployed as a defensive midfielder for most of his time in AC Milan. The French part of his career is often overlooked, but he had won the Champions League with Olympique de Marseille back in 1993. His performance against AC Milan in the final convinced the Italians to bid for him — and a year later he had won his second Champions League in a row. He was the first player to do so with 2 different clubs.

While the rest of his Italian career was mostly spent in midfield (which does not reflect on his quality as a defender by the way, it's just that Baresi and Costacurta occupied 2 central spots while Rijkaard's exit had left a glaring whole that needed to be filled), he was mostly used as a center back for France. Nicknamed "The Rock", due to his consistency, strength, and hard-tackling playing style, Desailly played the role of an intimidating and physical stopper — next to a sweeping Laurent Blanc and flanked by Lilian Thuram and Bixente Lizarazu. That defensive unit was actually more important to the France's win in 1998 World Cup that Zidane was, even though he had stolen all the headlines with a brace in the final. They've won 2 major tournaments in a row, establishing themselves as one of the greatest international sides of all-time.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

1. Jürgen Kohler. 738 points

Kohler was a physically strong centre-back, who was famed for his defensive perception, anticipation, quick reactions, marking, and prowess in the air, which also made him a goal threat during set-pieces. He was an absolute colossus, nicknamed "Fusballgott" by the German fans, and stuck to his men like glue. His epic battles with Marco van Basten will forever remain a part of a football folklore. In 1990 he had won the World Cup with Germany, in 1996 he had helped his country to a European Championship title. Throughout the 90's he was a part of the dominant teams like Bayern Munich, Juventus and Borussia Dortmund and had won multiple league titles. In 1992 he was voted the best Foreign Player in Serie A, the same year that he became a part of the Euros Team of the Tournament. In 1997, after winning both Champions League and International Cup with Dortmund, he became a Footballer of the Year in Germany.

harms · Aug 9, 2019

The final list. Stoppers.

1 Jürgen Kohler 738
2 Marcel Desailly 408
3 Fabio Cannavaro 385
4 Jaap Stam 321
5 Karlheinz Förster 263
6 Alessandro Nesta 251
7 Pietro Vierchowod 203
8 Paolo Maldini 183
9 Giuseppe Bergomi 173
10 Nemanja Vidić 166
11 Oscar Ruggeri, Lilian Thuram 155
13 Diego Godin 149
14 Jose Santamaria 144
15 Claudio Gentile 120
16 John Terry 107
17 Sol Campbell 97
18 Ciro Ferrara 95
19 Paul McGrath 76
20 Alessandro Costacurta 72
21 Lucio 56
22 Carles Puyol 56
23 Roberto Rosato 54
24 Frank Rijkaard 50
25 Albert Shesternyov 42
26 Tony Adams 38
27 Elías Figueroa 35
28 Hector Chumpitaz 31
29 Luis Pereira 28
30 Roberto Perfumo 27
31 Carlos Mozer 24
32 Vincent Kompany 19
33 Carlos Gamarra 17
34 Giorgio Chiellini, Roberto Ayala 16
36 Billy McNeill, Aldair 13
38 Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck, Murtaz Khurtsilava 11
40 Germano de Figueiredo 10
41 Mats Hummels 8
42 Paolo Montero, Emlyn Hughes, Riccardo Ferri, Jan Popluhar 7
46 Walter Samuel, Alan Hansen, Tarcisio Burgnich 6
49 Marco Materazzi, Raphael Varane, Neil Franklin 5
52 Billy Wright 3
53 Richard Gough 2
54 Kenny Burns 1

Šjor Bepo · Aug 9, 2019

Nesta

harms · Aug 9, 2019

Šjor Bepo said:
Nesta

Only 6 people mentioned him and he still managed to get to the 6th place. If we were all to agree on him being a stopper, it would've been a landslide victory.

Theon · Aug 10, 2019

harms said:
Only 6 people mentioned him and he still managed to get to the 6th place. If we were all to agree on him being a stopper, it would've been a landslide victory.

Things like that are going to crop up loads on these lists - I remember having debate earlier on whether Robben for example can be counted as a right winger (some viewed him a side forward).

Over categorising this has impacted the legitimacy of the list. Figueroa being on at 27th place is just daft.

Synco · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
Things like that are going to crop up loads on these lists (...)
Over categorising this has impacted the legitimacy of the list. Figueroa being on at 27th place is just daft.

Wouldn't say overcategorizing, but some choices in how the categories were designed. I still think most helpful measures for a functional framework have already been suggested somewhere down the line of discussions, or remained unused poll options.

The LB/RB seperation works fine for example, although that was a relatively easy task. We'd better have the patience for a thorough reflection on expectable problems & solutions before starting the vote on midfielders.

GodShaveTheQueen · Aug 10, 2019

The categories were fine. People just didn't follow the rules properly even when explicitly pointed out.

The list looks utterly shit to be honest. Forster for example enters the top 5 because most people put him in his list. No fecking way is he a top 5 stopper of all time.

If everyone had followed what the categories stated, the list would have looked way more better.

Someone has to police and point anomalies to the voters who should then change rather than follow their own rules.

Nesta is lucky to finish in top 10 simply because harms has a disproportionate points system (which is fine) for each position rather than 20 to 1. Otherwise he wouldn't even have been in top 10.

Edit: I might be guilty to at some point, so don't start digging up my lists now

Physiocrat · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
Things like that are going to crop up loads on these lists - I remember having debate earlier on whether Robben for example can be counted as a right winger (some viewed him a side forward).

Over categorising this has impacted the legitimacy of the list. Figueroa being on at 27th place is just daft.

He did appear third on the ball-playing CBs though.

I think we should just have decided which lists certain CBs should have gone in and it would have been fine.

That said Nesta as a ball-playing CB I think is positioned actually quite accurately.

harms · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
Figueroa being on at 27th place is just daft.

Only Beckenbauer, van Dijk and Baresi were higher than him in the previous list (which had more GOATs and is a more elite list out of the two). We should’ve manually excluded him and Nesta from this one though.

Theon · Aug 10, 2019

harms said:
Only Beckenbauer, van Dijk and Baresi were higher than him in the previous list (which had more GOATs and is a more elite list out of the two). We should’ve manually excluded him and Nesta from this one though.

I’m not talking about the other list - I’m talking about this list. Anyone who looks at this and sees Figueroa at 27th will wonder what we were smoking. It’s stupid. If he’s eligible to be classed as a stopper and judged to be relevant for this list then he should have come in the top three.

Theon · Aug 10, 2019

Synco said:
Wouldn't say overcategorizing, but some choices in how the categories were designed.

By over categorising I’m taking more about the later tbc lists - the left back / right back one works perfectly simply because it’s simple and not overcooked.

For midfielders there were ideas floated around for deep lying playmakers, offensive playmakers, box-to-box midfielders, defensive midfielders and probably a few others I’ve missed. From recollection it was even worse for the forwards.

Thought at the time it would cause confusion and the process so far supports that imo - it’ll be a minefield with people interpreting something like a DM vs a box to box (players like Keane could realistically go in both).

Gio · Aug 10, 2019

Now we have agreed the exclusion principle for full backs, we could just manually remove the outliers from this list. So Figueroa, Nesta, Hansen and whoever else out. I think that’s a better outcome for the credibility of our list than trying to justify to any passer-bys why certain players are so low.

Šjor Bepo · Aug 10, 2019

GodShaveTheQueen said:
The categories were fine. People just didn't follow the rules properly even when explicitly pointed out.

The list looks utterly shit to be honest. Forster for example enters the top 5 because most people put him in his list. No fecking way is he a top 5 stopper of all time.

If everyone had followed what the categories stated, the list would have looked way more better.

Someone has to police and point anomalies to the voters who should then change rather than follow their own rules.

Nesta is lucky to finish in top 10 simply because harms has a disproportionate points system (which is fine) for each position rather than 20 to 1. Otherwise he wouldn't even have been in top 10.

Edit: I might be guilty to at some point, so don't start digging up my lists now

No the lists were not fine because there is no such a thing as a ball-playing anything, that is not a football role nor will ever be. I honestly cant believe we have that as a serious category.

Physiocrat · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
Thought at the time it would cause confusion and the process so far supports that imo - it’ll be a minefield with people interpreting something like a DM vs a box to box (players like Keane could realistically go in both).

We just need to clarify who fits in each category before hand and it shouldn't be a problem

Theon · Aug 10, 2019

Physiocrat said:
We just need to clarify who fits in each category before hand and it shouldn't be a problem

Based on who’s opinion? We’ve already disagreed on Robben.

Think the better approach is just not to have five lists for central midfielders.

Physiocrat · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
Based on who’s opinion? We’ve already disagreed on Robben.

We would just have to go on consensus opinion- a poll could work if necessary.

Synco · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
By over categorising I’m taking more about the later tbc lists - the left back / right back one works perfectly simply because it’s simple and not overcooked.

For midfielders there were ideas floated around for deep lying playmakers, offensive playmakers, box-to-box midfielders, defensive midfielders and probably a few others I’ve missed. From recollection it was even worse for the forwards.

Thought at the time it would cause confusion and the process so far supports that imo - it’ll be a minefield with people interpreting something like a DM vs a box to box (players like Keane could realistically go in both).

But there has also been understandable opposition to putting Makelele, Pirlo, Xavi & Matthäus in the same list. I don't think there's any solution that doesn't have significant downsides. Borderline cases will have to be sorted out no matter the system, it comes with the principle of categories as such. (Which doesn't mean one set of categories can't be better than another.)

Theon · Aug 10, 2019

Synco said:
But there has also been understandable opposition to putting Makelele, Pirlo, Xavi & Matthäus in the same list. I don't think there's any solution that doesn't have significant downsides. Borderline cases will have to be sorted out no matter the system, it comes with the principle of categories as such. (Which doesn't mean one set of categories can't be better than another.)

I never suggested that Xavi should go in the same list as Makelele - I just don’t think there should be five categories for central midfielders.

As always there’s a balance to this but I think it’s in danger of being over complicated.

Synco · Aug 10, 2019

Theon said:
I never suggested that Xavi should go in the same list as Makelele - I just don’t think there should be five categories for central midfielders.

Fair enough, I didn't want to imply that (so probably not the best way to put it on my part). What I wanted to say is that I remember practically every suggested solution getting rightly criticized by someone. Either because of too many categories or different player types getting shoehorned together. And I'd also expect that there are always players right between any seperating lines.

My personal opinion is that there are many possible ways to do it, but only if the specific problems of a solution get enough attention.

GodShaveTheQueen · Aug 10, 2019

Šjor Bepo said:
No the lists were not fine because there is no such a thing as a ball-playing anything, that is not a football role nor will ever be. I honestly cant believe we have that as a serious category.

I like what someone else mentioned. Let's create a completely different category at the end and redo it.

BIG DUNK · Aug 11, 2019

First list: Defensive midfielder/holding man/destroyer/anchorman

Second list: central midfielder/box to box midfielder/central playmaker/deep lying playmaker

harms · Aug 12, 2019

Gio said:
Now we have agreed the exclusion principle for full backs, we could just manually remove the outliers from this list. So Figueroa, Nesta, Hansen and whoever else out. I think that’s a better outcome for the credibility of our list than trying to justify to any passer-bys why certain players are so low.

Yeah, I think we'll do the revision like that later.

Redcafe's All-Time Top 20. Stoppers | Results

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Lord of the Iron Islands

Lucio's #1 Fan

We mean it man, we love our queen!

Has No Mates

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain

Lord of the Iron Islands

Lord of the Iron Islands

★★★★★★★★

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!

Has No Mates

Lord of the Iron Islands

Has No Mates

Lucio's #1 Fan

Lord of the Iron Islands

Lucio's #1 Fan

We mean it man, we love our queen!

Tank

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain