Are managers who neglect cup competitions the real frauds?

horsechoker · Jan 25, 2021

We've seen the FA Cup take a back seat in the ambitions for top clubs, teams like Liverpool and until recently Spurs have neglected these competitions in order to go for a higher league position and/or European success.

However while managers like Klopp and Poch neglected these competitions, baldy bald Fraudiola slaphead has been accumulating these trophies while challenging for the league. Mourinho likewise has also tried to challenge for these trophies, even Ole seemed determined for us to get something despite it being a risk to our tenuous league position at the time.

What do you think?

cian68 · Jan 25, 2021

You look at what it did for Conte and Van Gaal I can't blame them. I do think some people talk about competitions like it's impossible to go for both though. Why not try to beat Liverpool in the cup and Sheffield United in the league.

Patchbeard · Jan 25, 2021

Sack off the League Cup. Should hopefully make the FA Cup a bit more appealing as it's the only other chance of domestic silverware, and as there would be less fixtures overall there's less reason to rest players.

Not sure why it wasn't trialled this year with the shortened covid season. Does anyone actually give a feck about the League Cup except City/Jose?

Ferguson’s Hairdryer · Jan 25, 2021

Was SAF a fraud?

But what I will say is that is that neglecting domestic cup competitions and Europa league until your club has won a league title is extremely naive and arrogant.

Winning a cup can often be the launch pad to going on to bigger things. In a title race, the team that wins the League Cup in March etc usually gets the confidence and extra drive to go on and win the league.

So while I understand a manager whose team have been winning the league regularly and have genuine Champions League winning ambitions neglecting domestic cups, I think Poch doing it at Spurs was shortsighted.

RobinLFC · Jan 25, 2021

Patchbeard said:
Sack off the League Cup. Should hopefully make the FA Cup a bit more appealing as it's the only other chance of domestic silverware, and as there would be less fixtures overall there's less reason to rest players.

Not sure why it wasn't trialled this year with the shortened covid season. Does anyone actually give a feck about the League Cup except City/Jose?

Money, I guess. Could be that Carabao signed a mult-year contract, I'd imagine they wouldn't be too happy if the competition got cancelled halfway through that period.

JB08 · Jan 25, 2021

Patchbeard said:
Sack off the League Cup. Should hopefully make the FA Cup a bit more appealing as it's the only other chance of domestic silverware, and as there would be less fixtures overall there's less reason to rest players.

Not sure why it wasn't trialled this year with the shortened covid season. Does anyone actually give a feck about the League Cup except City/Jose?

I think better would be making it only for teams who aren’t in Europe - gives lower league clubs and smaller PL teams like West Ham and Arsenal a better chance at silverware.

ChrisNelson · Jan 25, 2021

Under normal circumstances top teams shouldn't really be treating the FA Cup as a leper competition.

The games are played on Saturday's and slotted in to the season, and in recent seasons replays have been further reduced.

I can understand a bit more this season because, well everything is just madness but it's still a big trophy.

For example though Liverpool have Spurs on Thursday and that is a more important game than one against us yesterday.

I think it's fair game to make changes for the League Cup because the dates are all midweek and you're asking for trouble going in at 100% strength every time, and I know there's a round of the FA Cup this season being played midweek so that will be an interesting one.

horsechoker · Jan 25, 2021

Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
Was SAF a fraud?

Still went for the FA Cup every year. He even made a couple of league cup finals.

Ferguson’s Hairdryer · Jan 25, 2021

horsechoker said:
Still went for the FA Cup every year. He even made a couple of league cup finals.

There was a time when he completely neglected both. Please see my edit to the post you quoted for context.

Bojan11 · Jan 25, 2021

horsechoker said:
We've seen the FA Cup take a back seat in the ambitions for top clubs, teams like Liverpool and until recently Spurs have neglected these competitions in order to go for a higher league position and/or European success.

However while managers like Klopp and Poch neglected these competitions, baldy bald Fraudiola slaphead has been accumulating these trophies while challenging for the league. Mourinho likewise has also tried to challenge for these trophies, even Ole seemed determined for us to get something despite it being a risk to our tenuous league position at the time.

What do you think?

Klopp played strong sides this season in the FA Cup, which was surprising considering the fixture congestion was worse.

Man City do well in them because they have two starting elevens. So it’s not surprising.

Moyes and Hasenhuttl should be taking the cup seriously. They have a decent chance of winning something for their club. They are safe in the league, and I don’t see them getting any of the champions league spots. They should be fighting for their lives for the FA Cup.

May I have a suggestion? Rather than saying, think always. Maybe you could use different words like what do you believe, reflect, contemplate, ponder etc. It’s just a suggestion, so please consider it.

horsechoker · Jan 25, 2021

Bojan11 said:
Klopp played strong sides this season in the FA Cup, which was surprising considering the fixture congestion was worse.

Man City do well in them because they have two starting elevens. So it’s not surprising.

Moyes and Hasenhuttl should be taking the cup seriously. They have a decent chance of winning something for their club. They are safe in the league, and I don’t see them getting any of the champions league spots. They should be fighting for their lives for the FA Cup.

May I have a suggestion? Rather than saying, think always. Maybe you could use different words like what do you believe, reflect, contemplate, ponder etc. It’s just a suggestion, so please consider it.

I think I'll consider it.

Paul_Scholes18 · Jan 25, 2021

I like more managers trying to win it all. It builds the right kind of mentality.

Sadly admire Pep and Mourinho for it and they have won trebles as a result. Pep even won all 6 titles he could for barcelona during a full year.

Ole seems to try to win it all so I like that mentality.

spiriticon · Jan 25, 2021

I think the FA Cup deserves more love and respect. It's one of the oldest football competitions in the world and is filled with history. Any United manager who doesn't take it seriously goes down in my estimation.

The League Cup can do one though. Bring out the kids.

bosnian_red · Jan 25, 2021

When you are regularly competing for the CL and PL, then you can excuse it. If you win nothing in that season, then you look ridiculous but generally have something to fall back on. When you have never really won anything, or haven't in a while, then its a joke. Every trophy helps build that mentality. I'm happy Ole goes for them even if it might come at a cost, and that was a huge black mark on Pochettino for me.

Bale Bale Bale · Jan 25, 2021

Personally I don't really see the difference between the League Cup and FA Cup.

U99ted · Jan 25, 2021

Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
Was SAF a fraud?

horsechoker said:
Still went for the FA Cup every year. He even made a couple of league cup finals.

Won 9 domestic cups (5 FA, 4 EFL).

adexkola · Jan 25, 2021

This thing of labeling managers as frauds is surely tired out now

Wenger won 3 FA Cups and was still labeled a failure

Poch is derided for passing on cups Pep is mocked for winning

I don't recall the FA Cup we won under LVG being the springboard to anything

End of the day they are trophies however the pursuit of said trophies can be mitigated by more pressing needs to compete for the league/Europe, or finish 4th. It's sad but it is what it is

Trequarista10 · Jan 25, 2021

FA Cup has taken a backseat for years now. SAF fielded a B team in a semi final in his last few seasons (did we lose it vs Everton on pens??). It's just not as important.

RedSky · Jan 25, 2021

bosnian_red said:
When you are regularly competing for the CL and PL, then you can excuse it. If you win nothing in that season, then you look ridiculous but generally have something to fall back on. When you have never really won anything, or haven't in a while, then its a joke. Every trophy helps build that mentality. I'm happy Ole goes for them even if it might come at a cost, and that was a huge black mark on Pochettino for me.

Yup, when you're winning trophies on a regular basis then naturally the FA Cup, Europa and League Cup may become a 2nd or 3rd tier trophy. But for a club in a trophy drought you have to take them seriously, not to do so is in my opinion an insult to the fans. Not only that but what message does that really send out to your players? What example are you giving a group that have been starved of success? Given it's been a while since we won a trophy i'm glad Ole takes all of them seriously, we need to be a more professional club looking to win trophies on a regular basis and ultimately we can't pick and choose what we go for. I think it also helps motivation and morale for the club to go deep into competitions and helps in the long run as it gives your players more experience of big games.

GMoore23 · Jan 25, 2021

Winning the Fa Cup should hold the prize of the 4th Champions League spot. It's one of the most popular cups in history and winning it should mean something. Managers in recent years have been calling finishing 4th like winning a trophy, I can't stand this.

Ferguson’s Hairdryer · Jan 25, 2021

adexkola said:
This thing of labeling managers as frauds is surely tired out now

Wenger won 3 FA Cups and was still labeled a failure

Poch is derided for passing on cups Pep is mocked for winning

I don't recall the FA Cup we won under LVG being the springboard to anything

End of the day they are trophies however the pursuit of said trophies can be mitigated by more pressing needs to compete for the league/Europe, or finish 4th. It's sad but it is what it is

He was sacked within hours of winning it. Which shows that it’s boards that don’t value it.

renandstimpyfan83 · Jan 25, 2021

No. They’re just not important trophies and it’s daft to treat them seriously when you could pick up injuries for games that actually matter.

If anything, I’d argue that managers who prioritise cups as an easier route to a trophy to put on their résumé are the bigger “frauds”.

ivaldo · Jan 25, 2021

GMoore23 said:
Winning the Fa Cup should hold the prize of the 4th Champions League spot. It's one of the most popular cups in history and winning it should mean something. Managers in recent years have been calling finishing 4th like winning a trophy, I can't stand this.

Surely that would devalue it even more. Teams now only want to win the FA so they can play in a bigger cup.

renandstimpyfan83 · Jan 25, 2021

GMoore23 said:
Winning the Fa Cup should hold the prize of the 4th Champions League spot. It's one of the most popular cups in history and winning it should mean something. Managers in recent years have been calling finishing 4th like winning a trophy, I can't stand this.

I’m pretty sure Chelsea winning it in 2018 was the only time that would have made a difference since Wigan won it. It would make virtually no difference other than to make the league run-in a little more boring.

SuperiorXI · Jan 25, 2021

I think if you get into football you should do everything to win all you can. Those that sacrifice cups for the likes of 4th etc from a fan point of view is a disgrace.

On the flipside you can see why they do it, simple answer is money.

GMoore23 · Jan 25, 2021

renandstimpyfan83 said:
I’m pretty sure Chelsea winning it in 2018 was the only time that would have made a difference since Wigan won it. It would make virtually no difference other than to make the league run-in a little more boring.

You do know we won it under Van Gaal right and finished 5th in the league. :houllier:

Kasper · Jan 25, 2021

To be fair, it kind of goes both ways. People are critizising the likes of Klopp and Poch to have no interest in the domnestic cups and are deminishing their value while at the same time no one gave any sort of bigger plaudits for the late Wenger, Van Gaal or Arteta to win these FA cup titles. Pep has collected them left and right (tbf he has by far the biggest squad quality wise) yet many people view his City stint as an underachievement so far.
So I can understand managers not bothering about the cups if you won`t really get credit anyway.

renandstimpyfan83 · Jan 25, 2021

GMoore23 said:
You do know we won it under Van Gaal right and finished 5th in the league.

Aye, right you are. Arsenal last year too. In my defence, it’s easy to make the mistake of seeing the usual CL clubs and just assuming they were top 4 that season :lol:

If anything, that disproves the idea that the cup needs to be incentivised more though. Both United and Chelsea went for it those seasons despite being in the race to finish fourth. Giving a CL place isn’t going to make the competition any more winnable for the fodder so it’ll still just be one of the traditional “big 6” winning it anyway.

eire-red · Jan 25, 2021

I think every United player would rather finish 4th and win the EL or the FA Cup, instead of second and no trophy. Some managers have to view the cup competitions differently, neither Poch or Klopp have the squad depth that City have to challenge on all fronts, so they prioritise the main trophies.

Whether it's right or wrong only depends on what you achieve in hindsight. How may League Cups and FA Cups do you think Liverpool would trade for the Prem, or the CL? If Klopp doesn't win either, he's a flop so it's a calculated risk.

Cups are completely down to luck anyway. City could win the FA Cup by meeting Leicester in the final as their first PL team, whereas Liverpool could have knocked us out yesterday. It's luck of the draw, and luck on the day. Cups are nice to have if you're not achieving domestic success, but the league is the ultimate barometer of progress.

renandstimpyfan83 · Jan 25, 2021

eire-red said:
I think every United player would rather finish 4th and win the EL or the FA Cup, instead of second and no trophy.

I genuinely don’t think anyone born after about 1990 is particularly fussed about the domestic cups. If you’re comparing 5th and a cup to second, then no player would pick a cup. Playing in the CL is miles bigger than winning a domestic cup.

youngrell · Jan 25, 2021

I'm only ok with any manager of ours disregarding one of the domestic cups if it seriously puts more important games in jeopardy due to congestion, otherwise I expect us to try and win every competition we enter.

The size of squads these days should make it a lot more comfortable than when we were winning the treble in '99, yet all we hear is player tiredness/welfare etc (fair enough this season).

youngrell · Jan 25, 2021

renandstimpyfan83 said:
I genuinely don’t think anyone born after about 1990 is particularly fussed about the domestic cups. If you’re comparing 5th and a cup to second, then no player would pick a cup. Playing in the CL is miles bigger than winning a domestic cup.

Really? You think someone like Harry Kane will look back at all those top 4 finishes as great when/if he ends his career trophyless (or close)?

adexkola · Jan 25, 2021

Bring back the Cup Winners Cup
Kick non-champions out of the CL
Have only 2 teams from each league enter the Europa League
If you break the idea that "top 4" is worth anything, then maybe more teams will be convinced to push for the FA Cup/Carling Cup.

renandstimpyfan83 · Jan 25, 2021

youngrell said:
I'm only ok with any manager of ours disregarding one of the domestic cups if it seriously puts more important games in jeopardy due to congestion, otherwise I expect us to try and win every competition we enter.

The size of squads these days should make it a lot more comfortable than when we were winning the treble in '99, yet all we hear is player tiredness/welfare etc (fair enough this season).

United could afford to drop points in almost 40% of their games in the treble season, to be fair. It made sense to rotate more in the league back when hitting 90+ points wasn’t essential.

youngrell said:
Really? You think someone like Harry Kane will look back at all those top 4 finishes as great when/if he ends his career trophyless (or close)?

Well he probably wouldn’t swap his PL golden boots and however many CL goals he’ll end up with doubt. Just to turn it around, do you think Calum McManaman or David Nugent wouldn’t swap their FA Cup medals for having played consistently in the Champions League for six or seven seasons?

Paul_Scholes18 · Jan 25, 2021

renandstimpyfan83 said:
I genuinely don’t think anyone born after about 1990 is particularly fussed about the domestic cups. If you’re comparing 5th and a cup to second, then no player would pick a cup. Playing in the CL is miles bigger than winning a domestic cup.

I disagree. I love to win the cups. It gives a great feeling and even better if you have beaten some rivals to win it.

CL is fine, but being an average side in it is not so fun.

horsechoker · Jan 25, 2021

Paul_Scholes18 said:
I disagree. I love to win the cups. It gives a great feeling and even better if you have beaten some rivals to win it.

CL is fine, but being an average side in it is not so fun.

Yeah winning the Europa League felt great. It's not the most prestigious trophy but it was one of the best post-SAF moments.

Andersonson · Jan 25, 2021

Im not sure any managers try to lose a FA cup tie?

For instance, Burnley, they placed some backup players. Long played instead of Mee, Bardsley instead of Taylor etc

Many of those who played are normally benched, but aint that the point of having a squad of 25 players? I wouldn't say Dyche is neglecting the FA Cup simply because he played some rotation players.

I would say thats unfair, the point of a squad is to rest key players when needed, and for some cup games its needed.

tomaldinho1 · Jan 25, 2021

Patchbeard said:
Sack off the League Cup. Should hopefully make the FA Cup a bit more appealing as it's the only other chance of domestic silverware, and as there would be less fixtures overall there's less reason to rest players.

Not sure why it wasn't trialled this year with the shortened covid season. Does anyone actually give a feck about the League Cup except City/Jose?

Exactly this. FA cup would have so much more interest and more prestige if it was the main domestic cup comp for the PL teams.

I think the original idea for the League cup was that it was for teams who were knocked out of the FA cup early, so why don't we just run it like the CL/EL? Instead of group stages, you just have all losers from the Third Round (when the PL teams come in) dropping into the League Cup for knock out games. This year, for example, would have been:

Palace, Villa, Coventry, Reading, Cardiff, Derby, Preston, Blackburn, QPR, Stoke, WBA, Newcastle, Borough, Huddersfield, Watford, Pompey, Leeds (amongst others) which generally ensures it is still elite level football and there are some big ties for the smaller clubs but also that it's not going to be won by one of 3 or 4 teams every year. Much more exciting for the average fan and more variety with the cup winners.

youngrell · Jan 25, 2021

adexkola said:
Bring back the Cup Winners Cup
Kick non-champions out of the CL
Have only 2 teams from each league enter the Europa League
If you break the idea that "top 4" is worth anything, then maybe more teams will be convinced to push for the FA Cup/Carling Cup.

It's too late for that, unfortunately. There's no way the top clubs would settle for it. There's probably more chance of UEFA offering us 6 CL spots.

I do agree with your suggestions, mind.

youngrell · Jan 25, 2021

renandstimpyfan83 said:
Well he probably wouldn’t swap his PL golden boots and however many CL goals he’ll end up with doubt. Just to turn it around, do you think Calum McManaman or David Nugent wouldn’t swap their FA Cup medals for having played consistently in the Champions League for six or seven seasons?

No I don't think they would. If they wanted to play CL football that much they could probably have angled for moves to the Romanian champions or similar.

Of course, like your analogy suggests, those players would wish they were better players playing at a higher level, but that's a different scenario.

Are managers who neglect cup competitions the real frauds?

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