What to do with the kids

FatTails · May 12, 2021

Loan them to BVB, or really any upper midtable German club. I find the championship to be significantly different in the type of football played than the PL, and PL teams are too rich (so no need) and too risk-averse (no desire) to gamble on young players. This rules out loans in England working out.

The football is quite similar (faster pace, more physical than La Liga) to the PL, albeit at a bit lower level, and BL teams are much more willing to chuck young players in and see how they work out (there is a need because they’re not as flush with money, and they’re not as risk averse, for whatever reason).

As for them staying here, it depends. All the noises coming out seem to suggest that we might get Sancho. So we’d have Sancho, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba (?), Rashford, Martial, Cavani, James, Mata (?), Lingard (?), and VDB (?) competing for 4 forward positions. Unless a few of the ones with question marks leave, there won’t be enough meaningful minutes to give the likes of Elanga and Diallo.

redrobed · May 12, 2021

This is going to sound harsh but I think it’s better for everyone if we just cut our losses at this stage.

Rood · May 12, 2021

Chesterlestreet said:
(IF we actually buy Sancho):

Dan James won't be preferred to Amad on the right if Amad keeps on improving.

And Greenwood could conceivably start plenty of games up front next season (Cavani, for me, is the obvious starter - but he won't start every game).

The real question is how Pogba and Rashford will be deployed. If either of those (or both) are considered as possible on the right, that would impact Amad's minutes heavily.

But James - no. There's no way James gets minutes over a steadily improving Amad.

Yes its still a big if on Sancho but at the moment James is ahead of Amad in the pecking order, long term Amad has higher potential but I dont think Ole would be ready to put faith in him immediately

GBBQ said:
I think if Sancho is signed then Diallo will be his understudy. Greenwood will rotate with Cavani for the striker's position and then James will be a squad option. I just don't see Greenwood or James being the long term solution and Sancho should be able to handle 90% of games next season with Diallo getting the sub appearances, dead rubbers and some cup games.

For me we simply dont need all of those - one has to leave either on loan (Amad) or perm (James)

Dont forget that Martial also exists

Brightonian · May 13, 2021

redrobed said:
This is going to sound harsh but I think it’s better for everyone if we just cut our losses at this stage.

This just in. Sell kids, close academy.

Sea-Cow · May 13, 2021

kundalini said:
Elanga - loan, most probably for 2 or 3 seasons, then if he demonstrates he can perform at PL, Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga or Bundesliga level, then come back to United to compete for mins

Garner - probably another Championship or PL loan, assuming Matic stays

Mejbri - loan to Eredivisie in Netherlands or Jupiler Pro League in Belgium, possibly Championship

Laird - Championship loan, assuming one of Dalot or Williams stays as back-up to Wan-Bissaka

Levitt - loan for another season to a club that will take him, then release unless he has an amazing season

Shoretire - U23s

Amad - first team squad, starts in FA Cup and EFL Cup, PL mins if he performs well in domestic Cup games

Pellistri - watch all his La Liga mins very carefully to see if he might be ready for PL. His performance against Atletico Madrid suggested he could be close. If not quite there, another season on loan in La Liga.

Chong - another season out on loan. Needs a huge improvement if he is to get another chance at United or indeed a contract extension.

The vast majority of our talented youngsters should go out on loan and return when they are ready to compete for PL mins at United, having had a decent season in one of the top 5 European Leagues (PL, Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga, Ligue 1). We should expect to loan out players until they are 22 or 23. In some instances they will be ready earlier but we shouldn't rush the process.

It sucks but I think the club needs to be much more ruthless than what you suggested here.

Chong and Levitt should both be sold or allowed to leave. I hope they both have great careers but there is just too much talent in front of them.

lysglimt · May 13, 2021

sincher said:
The only bit I would question here is the 90% figure in 4. Why do you think so few clubs are suitable?

There are a lot of reasons - here are a few:

a) Right style of football - you need to send the players to a club which suits their playing styles. The right club for Elanga might not be the right club for Mengi for instance.

b) Right manager - you need them to play for a manager who takes care of them.

c) Stable club - you need the club to be fairly stable in terms of fans / managers. Look what happened to Garner at Watford once a new manager came in. In retrospect that was the best thing that happened to him so he was forced to find a new club where he felt much more at hom.

d) Right team-mates. Some players can survive a competitive environment, some players need "nicer" teammates, feel more like home. I have changed jobs 4 times in my life - still at 40+ you feel nervous the first few days, well imagine what its like for an insecure 18-19 year old especially.

e) Language and culture - Pellistri came from Uruguay and was still adapting to a new country, a new culture and a new language - there was probably no chance of him (despite his good english) going on loan to a country where they didn't speak Spanish so he at least would feel at home with the language - but I assume he takes English classes when he is not practicing to be ready when he returns to United.

f) Physical development / injuries - some players are struggling with injuries. I expect United spoke a lot about Lairds injuries before sending him off on loan. Maybe that was one of the main requirements United had regarding Laird. He is a brilliant player - but how do you intend to keep him fit ? Maybe MK Dons wasn't even Uniteds first choice, but they are the ones who convinced United regarding his fitness.

g) Squad of the new club - are United convinced that the club needs that player and will use him? Do you want to risk sending Elanga out on loan, knowing that the new club already has 2 left wingers and 2 strikers - regardless of what the manager says about him being first choice ?

sincher · May 13, 2021

lysglimt said:
There are a lot of reasons - here are a few:

a) Right style of football - you need to send the players to a club which suits their playing styles. The right club for Elanga might not be the right club for Mengi for instance.

b) Right manager - you need them to play for a manager who takes care of them.

c) Stable club - you need the club to be fairly stable in terms of fans / managers. Look what happened to Garner at Watford once a new manager came in. In retrospect that was the best thing that happened to him so he was forced to find a new club where he felt much more at hom.

d) Right team-mates. Some players can survive a competitive environment, some players need "nicer" teammates, feel more like home. I have changed jobs 4 times in my life - still at 40+ you feel nervous the first few days, well imagine what its like for an insecure 18-19 year old especially.

e) Language and culture - Pellistri came from Uruguay and was still adapting to a new country, a new culture and a new language - there was probably no chance of him (despite his good english) going on loan to a country where they didn't speak Spanish so he at least would feel at home with the language - but I assume he takes English classes when he is not practicing to be ready when he returns to United.

f) Physical development / injuries - some players are struggling with injuries. I expect United spoke a lot about Lairds injuries before sending him off on loan. Maybe that was one of the main requirements United had regarding Laird. He is a brilliant player - but how do you intend to keep him fit ? Maybe MK Dons wasn't even Uniteds first choice, but they are the ones who convinced United regarding his fitness.

g) Squad of the new club - are United convinced that the club needs that player and will use him? Do you want to risk sending Elanga out on loan, knowing that the new club already has 2 left wingers and 2 strikers - regardless of what the manager says about him being first choice ?

I would argue most of these don't really matter as long as the player plays.

lysglimt · May 13, 2021

sincher said:
I would argue most of these don't really matter as long as the player plays.

Well - first of all, a few of these would make sure that the player does NOT play. But if we ignore that part - I still would not agree with you, because if you are 18-19 years old - you would need to develop in the best possible way if you are ever to have a chance at United. If a player spends 12 months on loan at a club where he doesn't fullfill his potential - that could be enough.

The best example is James Garner. Let's be honest here - Garner was mediocre for Watford. Then he goes to Forest who are nowhere near the quality of Watford, and suddenly he looks like one of the biggest talents in the division. Has Garner suddenly turned into a better player overnight ? Of course not - but he came to a club which was perfect for him. Why didn't Garner perform as well as he could at Watford - there could be a number of reasons, but the fact is - if Garner had stayed at Watford or gone to another club where he didn't perform - that could have been the end of his United-career. Now there are people wanting to take him back already next season (which is too early imo)

So no - simply playing is not enough. Yes he will develip by playing - but you can develop a lot, and you can develop a little. United don't loan players out to develop a little - they do it to develop them as much as possible.

sun_tzu · May 13, 2021

Just with the attacking talent we have so many options coming through

Chong
Mcneil
Hughill
Elanga
Diallo
Shoretire
Pellestri
Mejrib
Forson

Not sure how many of those will make it as a first team regular and join Rashford / Greenwood over the next 2 or 3 seasons but there is some huge potential there

Diallo could be loaned i guess but I think getting him used to united has a lot of value to it as well
Shoretire, Forson Mcneil, Hughill probably need another season or two in the U23 set up
Elanga - might be worth loaning next season
Mejrib - could be good cover for Bruno next season so I hope he stays and gets some games
Pellestri - Ive not seen enough of him in spain to get a good feel for him but my gut tells me we would be better off getting him at least in the UK (be that a loan or in our U23 set up) next season - assuming we can get a work permit?
Chong - Sell him? - get a few million which hopefullly goes back into the accademy rather than the glazers back pocket

Midfield - the ones who look ready for loans / coming back from loans

Garner
Galbraith
Puigmal
Levitt
Traore

Id be tempted to bring Levitt and Traore back for the U23 and see if they can kick on and challange for a place in the 1st team squad and let Garner and Piugmal have the experience of a loan
Garner - Forrest seems a good fit for now I think another season there would be a good move

Defenders - the ones who look ready for loans / coming back from loans

Laird
Williams
Dalot
Mengi

Id like to see Laird loaned at a higher level
Dalot I would like to see as back up for AWB
this would allow willliams to go on loan
Wouldnt mind giving Mengi another season ad Derby

pacifictheme · May 13, 2021

Eckers99 said:
There were more opportunities for those 2, as the first team was much weaker than its (hopefully) likely to be over the next 2 years.

As others have said, a few of them probably need loans but only if the circumstances are right. When it works, as it has with Garner, everybody benefits.

Possibly weaker first 11 but the squad used to be a lot more bloated so my hope is that we have a core of better players than we did in the past, but with more space in the overall squad for youth players to get a chance where it is merited.

trevor newnham · May 13, 2021

sincher said:
We need to trim the squad quite a bit in the summer and that will make a difference. I would expect most of De Gea, Romero, Grant, Castro-Pereira, Dalot, Jones, Pereira, Lingard, Levitt, Mata, Mellor and Chong to move on, and perhaps the likes of Williams, Tuanzebe, Matic and James too.

Depending on who comes in that could easily mean promotions into the main squad for Laird and Garner, for example, and more chances for Amad and maybe a few games for Shoretire. We should look at loans for Pellistri and Elanga and probably others.

Tuanzebe???? I think he is pretty good. It wouldn't surprise me to see him develop as a CM even.

Smores · May 13, 2021

I think Laird, Garner, Mejbri, and Amad should all be around the first team next season. Hopefully getting actual minutes too otherwise why bother with an academy.

There's plenty of players who should be leaving to make space for them.

Stack · May 13, 2021

no need to rush things, one last season in the u23s wont hurt them and will allow them to continue to develop at their own pace. They need space to grow and they arent likely to push anyone aside just yet.

Eckers99 · May 13, 2021

nokillingmoths said:
Possibly weaker first 11 but the squad used to be a lot more bloated so my hope is that we have a core of better players than we did in the past, but with more space in the overall squad for youth players to get a chance where it is merited.

We've definitely trimmed the deadwood but assuming we make 2 quality signings this summer, that just puts 2 current regular first teamers on the bench more, so will it really lead to more squad space for the youngsters?

It's all conjecture but losing the likes of Jones, Lingard and Matic isn't going to free up much room.

I agree with you in principle though, it would be great if we could shed some more and get the likes of Mejbri and Shoretire involved.

Mickson · May 13, 2021

We need to do something about Tuanzebe and Williams first and most. Either he decides to play Tuanzebe more, or he needs to let go of him. Williams is a no-brainer IMO, I think it was a really poor decision to keep him this season. It's a wasted season for him and he has only regressed. Send him on loan ASAP. Personally, I would like to see Tuanzebe get more chances.

Then we come to Laird, Garner, Elanga, Amad, Pellistri, and the rest of the gang.

Pellistri: A new loan. Alaves wants him again, and that sounds good to me.
Amad: Ole needs to give him more chances. He shouldn't be loaned, he should be getting more minutes. Too good for U23 also.
Elanga: Not ready for United, and too good for the U23. A certain loan deal here. League One sounds reasonable or maybe back to Malmo FF for a couple of months?
Garner: A difficult one. It all depends on what Ole thinks. I think he can play a role at United next season, but it's maybe better for his own development if he played a season for Forest again (or the likes of Norwich if they really want him).
Laird: He's better than Williams right now, and therefore would be a decent option at RB. Again, I don't know what Ole thinks and I say the same as I said about Garner: It's maybe better for his own development if he was first choice in a Championship club.
Levitt: Needs a GOOD loan. League One or Championship where he plays regularly. I would suggest MK Dons since they play actual football.
Galbraith: Loan for him too. League One.
Dalot: Sell. Would be a good profit now after a decent loan. I don't think he fits in the PL particularly well.
Shoretire and Hannibal: Stay in the U23 and play the odd game in the first-team. No rush here. They aren't ready for a full-time loan.
Chong: I think we need to sell him.

Mr. MUJAC · May 13, 2021

sincher said:
The only bit I would question here is the 90% figure in 4. Why do you think so few clubs are suitable?

I think there are numerous factors:

1. Style of play/system
2. Change of manager
3. Tendency to favour own player over our young juniors
4. Physicality of league
5. Poor fit
6. Miscalculation by our coaching team
7. Motivation and capability of the player

If you analyse all of our loans since 1970...I reckon only 10% have actually benefitted both the player and the club. Loans should benefit both.

Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley, Lingard, Henderson....jury is out with Tuanzebe and a few others.

The other 90% of players didn't make the grade at United (although some had good careers elsewhere) because of one or more of the factors listed above.

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