Squad depth is king

roonster09 said:

Yesterday we had better players than Villarreal and Ole made 0 subs. Having players isn't enough, we need manager who can use the squad. What's the point of spending so much money and pay so much in wages if manager won't trust them?

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This. /thread.
United have a better and deeper squad than 99% of teams.

OP is spot on, we had a good first 11 on paper, but they'd all played so much and in some cases were carrying injuries. More quality depth in the squad is about more than bringing on subs, getting Sancho last summer for example would have allowed us to rest Rashford at the start of the season so he wasn't playing on one leg for 6 months, and we'd have had both of them in much better shape for the final, along with a fresh Greenwood to bring off the bench to change the game.

roonster09 said:

Yesterday we had better players than Villarreal and Ole made 0 subs. Having players isn't enough, we need manager who can use the squad. What's the point of spending so much money and pay so much in wages if manager won't trust them?

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This. It looks like OGS just puts on the big names and leaves them on. Like I do in FIFA 21.

Not sure he picks the right players to beat the different oppositions.

For example, did we need Fred and Jarhead Vs an ultra defensive West Brom?

Annihilate Now! said:

Isn't this the problem? Worrying about penalties at 60/70 or hell even 90 minutes? Why not try win the game instead of thinking about penalties? And even if you want to keep pens in the back of your mind, then bring on good technical players like Mata or VdB to try something different.

This squad stuff is nonsense, yeah our squad isn't vintage United but a) there's lots of good players in there b) lots of our bench players would walk into the Villareal side and c) SAF got more out of far worse bench players - and if SAF was in charge last night there is zero chance he'd manage it in the same way.

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We can't exactly compare football by saying " these players can walk into Villareal squad and they are good". I don't disagree with you that they can walk into the Villareal squad, but the issue is that they never fit the system in which United has been set out to play. Dan James is used primarily when the team plays against an open team like Leeds (first time) and Wolves, vdB fits the Ajax system more than the United system and Alex Telles still plays like when he is in the Portuguese league. The problem is that both vdB and Mata have not been playing any of the first XI, and they have not convinced much that they can change the team when they are on the field. This is why the issue with the team could not be solved with a few substitutions last night. OGS had plenty of time throughout the season to throw subs in but he usually throws vdB in during the 88th minute, and does not even play Telles. How can you gel the subs this way?
This is why I strongly feel that squad depth is the issue, but I also believe that OGS is not blameless. Who endorsed the transfers? Why did he not play them during some games to gel them into the team? Was it because United's objective was just a UCL place all along, so the team only prioritized top 4 finish?

Mickeza said:

It’s about having options to change a game. Everyone is saying our subs would get into the Villarreal side which is true for some of them. However, as a manager during that final the question is: Have I got more chance of winning the game with Greenwood on the pitch or James. Amad or rashford. Bruno or DVB etc. The answer to that becomes far more blurred than the venting masses would claim. I think we’ve scored the most goals from subs this year so clearly Ole isn’t too bad at the sub lark - yesterday though the injuries to martial and Fred meant ALL our attacking load was blown at the start. Yes, I’d have taken Rashford off but then I’ve been screaming for that before and he’s popped up with a goal or an assist from nowhere.

The answer is you add a top quality attacking player and DM in the summer which means you’d have two of Martial, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford and x on the bench along with the option of moving Pogba higher up. I’m convinced that’s what we’ll do too.

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I mostly agree.
Everyone saying Villarreal made 5 subs and don’t have our squad quality. But they were mostly defensive subs. Fair enough, they played for set pieces and / or a penalty shoot out.
Whereas we should have wanted to avoid penalties. I can’t imagine we practiced them much anyway as we weren’t defending for 120 mins and waiting for them.
In such a scenario you do need attacking quality on the bench. We didn’t have it yesterday but Ole knew it and at some point he should have just brought Amad and VdB on for Rashford and Pogba (instead of Fred for Greenwood) especially as the former two were not good and looked very tired.
He needs to change the mindset from not losing to risking more for a win. We absolutely need more attacking threat on the bench. But Ole also needs to be less cautious. Otherwise we will continue to have more draws and less wins than we should.

jackal&hyde said:

Don't compare the intensity it takes to compete in the PL plus 2 domestic cups. This game is played 2 months ago we dispatch them like we did Sociedad. Again, the thread is not about this one game that we could have easily won on pens or earlier but the underlying issue is the same.

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Im aware the thread isn’t about one game but You said our squad depth is what causes nights like last night. There’s no other means of replying to that.

We were knocked out the league cup in January....
We played our second string for a few games towards the end of the season, we did the same in the FA Cup.
We put in half arsed shifts against Liverpool and Fulham.
We were told this was all done to keep the team fresh for the Europa run in and final.

Keep your mouth shut and watch us win Europa.

Well we’ve now lost the game. Against the 7th best team in Spain who have a smaller and inferior squad.

Mickeza said:

It’s about having options to change a game. Everyone is saying our subs would get into the Villarreal side which is true for some of them. However, as a manager during that final the question is: Have I got more chance of winning the game with Greenwood on the pitch or James. Amad or rashford. Bruno or DVB etc. The answer to that becomes far more blurred than the venting masses would claim. I think we’ve scored the most goals from subs this year so clearly Ole isn’t too bad at the sub lark - yesterday though the injuries to martial and Fred meant ALL our attacking load was blown at the start. Yes, I’d have taken Rashford off but then I’ve been screaming for that before and he’s popped up with a goal or an assist from nowhere.

The answer is you add a top quality attacking player and DM in the summer which means you’d have two of Martial, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford and x on the bench along with the option of moving Pogba higher up. I’m convinced that’s what we’ll do too.

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You see how the game is going and take a call. Football is not played on paper and you need to change the flow of the match and get the momentum on your side. We were visibly tired by the end of 90 minutes, Rashford was dreadful, Pogba & Bruno were not doing much. He could have brought on Diallo / James on the 70 minute mark and then brought on VDB / Mata earlier. If it was only about replacing players with like for like quality then Ole would never have made it on the pitch in 99 instead of Cole. As a manager, you need to make bold decisions and hope they pay off. Being passive when you see things are not working is a crime.

jackal&hyde said:

I'm surprised to see how many of you rate the squad so highly that you think we could have rotated much more and still be in top 4/ 2ed. What are the players you think should have had much more game time? Mata? Tuanzebe after the disaster in Turkey, Jones, Williams, James, Matic? With the exception of DVB that takes his time to adapt i would not trust any of them against any PL opposition.

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People do overate our squad a bit. Its not so much always a depth thing as a balance/quality thing.

We have 5 centre backs. 4 of them just aren't very good. Period. And even of those 3 of them are weetabix legs who arent even fit. So you have Lindelof and Maguire. Hence why Maguire has had to play every single match for 2 years. Without him we have dumb and dumber at centre half if they are lucky enough to be fit. Look at city. They rotate Dias and Laporte with Stones. Everyone knows Stones ain't very good but he always has a really good centre half next to him. We’ve been awful without HM.

We have Matic who cant play every week and then MCFred who only function together. This means shoehorning Pogba into the team at DM or LW. Hes crap in both positions. We need a holding midfielder who can play alone so Pogba and Bruno can both play ahead of him. Or we can play mcfred with one of pogba and bruno.

We dont have a rw player. James, rashford, greenwood have all struggled there. Diallo is a few years away.

So for all of the above reasons, its why everyone with an ounce of idea says we are screaming out for a RW, CB and CDM. If they are all of starting quality suddenly the squad takes on much better balance and theres quality on the bench and no square pegs in round holes.

Tactics and management and whatever is another argument.

jackal&hyde said:

You seem to be obsessed with this game. We were not battered or something, we could have won but the issue is the same for at least 3 or 4 season. We win the EL with Mourinho but having to completely sacrifice the PL. We can not keep momentum in to the later stages of the season. Is a squad quality issue.

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We have literally nothing to play other than 2nd or 3rd at worst. What momentum we have to keep?

Stop making excuse that wasnt there to begin with. You can support ole, i still think he earnt next season but squad depth issue ?

Abhinav said:

You see how the game is going and take a call. Football is not played on paper and you need to change the flow of the match and get the momentum on your side. We were visibly tired by the end of 90 minutes, Rashford was dreadful, Pogba & Bruno were not doing much. He could have brought on Diallo / James on the 70 minute mark and then brought on VDB / Mata earlier. If it was only about replacing players with like for like quality then Ole would never have made it on the pitch in 99 instead of Cole. As a manager, you need to make bold decisions and hope they pay off. Being passive when you see things are not working is a crime.

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Yes except being passive hasn’t been a crime the numerous times he’s left players on who were underperforming or looked tired who then impacted the result like rashford numerous times this season.

Di Maria's angel said:

Whats this? Excuse number 1452?

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Hes right though. We got a good core of players, but outside of that we dont have many options who wont significantly weaken us. If you told me we would end up 2nd and reach the EL final in August i would not have believed you, especially after the disappointing summer window we had

Mata and Matic are way past it and hopefully will be moved on. Martial has contributed feck all this season and his time should be up. Donny needs time to settle (or hes useless, time will tell), James is a speed merchant whos only useful on the counter and the rest are just a bunch of kids.

Unless we have a completely abysmal summer window we are going to be better next season.

Bobcat said:

Hes right though. We got a good core of players, but outside of that we dont have many options who wont significantly weaken us. If you told me we would end up 2nd and reach the EL final in August i would not have believed you, especially after the disappointing summer window we had

Mata and Matic are way past it and hopefully will be moved on. Martial has contributed feck all this season and his time should be up. Donny needs time to settle (or hes useless, time will tell), James is a speed merchant whos only useful on the counter and the rest are just a bunch of kids.

Unless we have a completely abysmal summer window we are going to be better next season.

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Is he right though? Ole doesnt trust a single player outside of the first XI and, in my opinion, its down to his inability to get anything out of them. For heavens sake, we purchased two 40 million players last summer and neither can get a game. Emery can get Arsenal, Spurs and Watford rejects to the win this tin pot cup but Ole couldn't anything out of a World Cup winner or anyone on the bench, for that matter.

Like I said, excuses.

jackal&hyde said:

I think that's a fair point. You rate those squad players much higher then me and you think it's the manager at fault for not making them better. What did Emery do in the PL?

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Nothing. Still a better manager than Ole.

We had a bench of players who would start for Villarreal. Villarreal had a bench of players who wouldn't even start for Brighton.

Yet they made 5 subs in normal time and we made none.

Squad depth had nothing to do with choking yesterday.

I fully expect Man City and Chelsea to fight for the title next season if ourselves and Liverpool don't get this window spot on (and avoid too many injuries next season).

All Man City & Chelsea really need is a striker and they should be golden. Their squads are very strong, being able to rotate the forwards and midfield, and even full backs to a degree. Even the CBs in City's case, but of course CBs don't need to be rotated quite as much IMO. Better off to have two play every big game / league game and at least one competent cover for injury / suspension.

We spent enough to have great squad depth. If we dont have it its our own fault through poor signings

We had our entire summer budget sat on the bench against Villarreal. DVB and Amad didnt come on

hobbers said:

We had a bench of players who would start for Villarreal. Villarreal had a bench of players who wouldn't even start for Brighton.

Yet they made 5 subs in normal time and we made none.

Squad depth had nothing to do with choking yesterday.

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You could argue the team Villareal finished are no worse then the Wolves team that our second team comfortably beat on the weekend. Obviously yesterdays opponents had more to play for, but the idea that any of the bench players couldn't hack it or do something against them, or at the very least be better then Rashford or Pogba (a pretty low bar) is total nonsense.

If we strengthen in positions we need (CB,DM,RW) we'll instantly have depth as well, with players like Lindelof, Fred etc. being good backups. Them, combined with likes of vdB, Telles, Martial, Greenwood gives you enough squad depth.

The lack of quality squad depth is entirely why we didn’t win the final and why we’ve finished second this season.
our first 11, all fit (not like Rashford at the moment) gives anyone a game, as we’ve seen this season with wins over PSG, City etc. We absolutely 100% have to have world class depth in attack and defence especially - last night with Martial injured you could see we had nobody to turn to and that is why the club is so set on Sancho, because he will give us depth in numerous positions - LW/RW/10. If we’d have had him this season we could have let Rashford have his surgery and we wouldn’t be any weaker.

Varane, Sancho and a quality DM and we’ll be miles better. It’s just whether the board have the hunger to spend what’s needed and my thinking is not.

We’re probably exactly where Liverpool were just before their big spend to bring in Allison and Van Dijk.

Annihilate Now! said:

You could argue the team Villareal finished are no worse then the Wolves team that our second team comfortably beat on the weekend. Obviously yesterdays opponents had more to play for, but the idea that any of the bench players couldn't hack it or do something against them, or at the very least be better then Rashford or Pogba (a pretty low bar) is total nonsense.

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Really, all you have to do is look at the players Villarreal brought on. Not one of them would be anywhere near our bench.

Di Maria's angel said:

Is he right though? Ole doesnt trust a single player outside of the first XI and, in my opinion, its down to his inability to get anything out of them. For heavens sake, we purchased two 40 million players last summer and neither can get a game. Emery can get Arsenal, Spurs and Watford rejects to the win this tin pot cup but Ole couldn't anything out of a World Cup winner or anyone on the bench, for that matter.

Like I said, excuses.

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Amad is an investment for the future and was not bought to make an instant impact. Donny as i said, either needs time to settle or hes simply not good enough. Unless you have a manager who is able to reverse aging you wont get more out of Matic and Mata, their legs have gone, Martial seems to lack the mentality to be a top player

I never said our frist XI should not be capable to beat them. They should, but as far as squad depth goes we dont really have much to offer

Mainoldo said:

Are you ok (Hyde or Jackal)?

The man could have Thierry Henry on the bench and he wouldn’t put him on until extra time.

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DickDastardly said:

Whats the use of a Squad when you won't fecking play them?!

When you make your first change in Extra time you don't fecking deserve a squad.

We have a squad, we just don't fecking use it.

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devilish said:

Squad depth is great when you have a bold manager who is keen of using them.

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How many times we have seen Ole brought on Cavani or Greenwood or Pogba or Rashford from the bench to change the game? Give him quality squad depth, he will have quality option to make change from his bench, and he will do it. Expecting ageing Mata, mediocre James, and inexperienced Diallo who is not ready, couldn’t even start in Atalanta team and still need time to replace Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani, and Bruno is ridiculous. Would he do it if he had Grealish or Sancho instead? Yes!

We spent 40m on Van de Beek last summer and he was squatted on our bench for 120 minutes. Made all our subs after 100 minutes of the game. How many of our bench would start for Villareal? We had loads of time to prep for this game, had 2 weeks of irrelevant fixtures basically. Not having depth as a problem.

Bobcat said:

Amad is an investment for the future and was not bought to make an instant impact. Donny as i said, either needs time to settle or hes simply not good enough. Unless you have a manager who is able to reverse aging you wont get more out of Matic and Mata, their legs have gone, Martial seems to lack the mentality to be a top player

I never said our frist XI should not be capable to beat them. They should, but as far as squad depth goes we dont really have much to offer

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Our squad depth was still far better than theirs. Raul Albiol is 35 and their captain. Capoue was signed from the championship. They had an 18 year old kid with limited first team starts this season starting on the wing for them.

The difference was that Emery has the squad management capability to make the depth players feel useful, and isn't afraid to change it up... Ole has put himself in the same boat as last year despite spending a lot pretty big, in that he only trusts the starting 11 and 1 or 2 others, refuses to rotate starters during the season, and then when he's forced to make a sub it is for a low confidence player as they haven't played. Van de Beek is literally the biggest example imaginable. What the feck is the point in spending 40m and then refusing to play him?

Sir Alex in 2008/09 subbed off Nani and Tevez for 2 fecking 18 year olds in Welbeck and Macheda in an absolute must win game for the league title after we had lost to Fulham and the season was in danger of unraveling, and Macheda scored the winner. Ole has failed to put his faith in the squad players properly and its one of his biggest faults. Overplaying players, refusing to rotate, refusing to rest when necessary, and being scared to ever sub out a key player.

More like squad management, rather than squad depth.

Only Pep has serious squad depth in this league, everyone else relies heavily on their starting XI and a core of players at that. Klopp won the CL and then the EPL (with 99 points no less), with feck all squad depth playing the same team week in and week out.

But apparently unless we have Mbappe, Messi and Kroos on the bench then the squad isn't good enough to beat Villarreal according to some. The absolute depths...

MadMike said:

Only Pep has serious squad depth in this league, everyone else relies heavily on their starting XI and a core of players at that. Klopp won the CL and then the EPL (with 99 points no less), with feck all squad depth playing the same team week in and week out.

But apparently unless we have Mbappe, Messi and Kroos on the bench then the squad isn't good enough to beat Villarreal according to some. The absolute depths...

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Starting XI can always be nullified so you need someone to be game changer from the bench. There is a reason why Liverpool was so poor this season and no longer win those 1-0 or 2-1 victories like they did before, their XI is no longer do them favour week in week out. It’s not coincidence they only started to fix their form this season when Jota was available as that game changing option.

He may have not been top class but letting smalling go was a bad move when ole has showed no confidence in tuanzebe and was surely not stupid enough to think bailly would be dependable as our back cb, ask yourself if you had to choose between smalling or bailly last night most would say smalling.

Our bench is more expensive than total villareal squad

He had Van de Beek, Diallo, James and Telles on the bench, all of his signings yet he refused to bring them on to change the game, two of them were only brought on to take a penalty.

Stop making excuses for this joke of a manager.

For all the obsession with managers in here, quality of players is far more important.

Yes, we should be beating Villarreal. But in a one off game without our key centre back a draw in normal time is hardly a major shock. Penalties are a toss of a coin, or less so if you choose to go second.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

How many times we have seen Ole brought on Cavani or Greenwood or Pogba or Rashford from the bench to change the game? Give him quality squad depth, he will have quality option to make change from his bench, and he will do it. Expecting ageing Mata, mediocre James, and inexperienced Diallo who is not ready, couldn’t even start in Atalanta team and still need time to replace Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani, and Bruno is ridiculous. Would he do it if he had Grealish or Sancho instead? Yes!

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Do not care.

Squad depth is very important. However it's not the reason we haven't won a trophy in 4 years.

Mainoldo said:

Do not care.

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You shouldn’t be ignorant on that fact mate.

Sky1981 said:

Our bench is more expensive than total villareal squad

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Bingo! This shit on a stick excuse might hold some weight in the PL but it’s laughable cowardice in the EL. When your bench is worth more than the whole opposition squad and you play for penalties and extra time because there’s no one else he trusts… Christ…

Imagine Fergie just left the 99 final play out because there was nobody else? It’s just a stupid excuse to cover for his total lack of risk taking at this stage.

If only Ole had the luxury of having the likes of Moreno and Coquelin on the bench to come on and help change the game like Emery. What else could he do other than stand there looking clueless, hang on for penalties and hope for the best.

We have better squad depth than Villarreal. It’s no excuse. Donny van de Beek would be one of their best players & he couldn’t even get on the pitch