INEOS multi-club transfer network

daba · Jan 19, 2024

With Utd effectively becoming part of the INEOS sporting portfolio, could we start seeing the other two football clubs (Nice and Lausanne in Swiss League) sign players with a long-term view of them playing for Man Utd in the future.

The Red Bull clubs have done this to great effect over the years with players such as Upamecano, Szoboszlai, Naby Keita, Haidara and in summer 23 both Sesko and Seiwald made the move. The City Group are the other obvious multi-club project doing transfers between clubs, however after looking at their transfers, it doesn't look like many if not players have really graduated up to Man City's first team yet (although I could see Savinho moving from Girona to City very soon) and Man City have largely used the other clubs to sell-on young players (I expect with buy back clauses) or loaning out young players to the likes of Girona, Troyes and Lommel SK for development.

The reason I'm starting this thread now is that we potentially might be seeing the first piece of action for the INEOS multi-club strategy with Lausanne set to sign highly rated Italian wonderkid Simone Pafundi on loan for 12 months with an option to buy for €15m. Any Football Manager 24 players out there should know this guys name (*spoiler* he's very good). Correct me if I'm wrong but €15m sounds like a lot for a Swiss League team to be splashing out on a player, so this certainly smells like a more strategic signing for INEOS.

Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date

I'm hoping we take a bit of a hybrid approach between what the Red Bull clubs have done with Salzburg effectively being a strategic feeder club for Leipzig where both clubs benefit, and how City have used the other portfolio clubs for strategic loans or players sales, again to the mutual benefit of both clubs. For example, could we buy Todibo or Thuram from Nice in exchange for a more modest fee and send Kambwala or Hannibal in the other direction as part of the deals (loans or perms).

Could we also sign cheap young players like Oscar Zambrano and send him straight to Lausanne or Nice to get used to European football before coming to the Utd 1st team similar to what Brighton did with Caicedo. Brighton although not part of a multi-club portfolio have been the most successful at doing this with young players in recent years, hence why they are now winning deals like Barco from Boca who is touted to be the next big thing at LB over clubs like City and Barcelona. All we need is for a few success stories of our multi-club strategy working (effectively like a business having customer case studies to show ROI) and suddenly it becomes a very attractive option for young players with ambitions to play at the top level.

Naturally this will take a few years to get into full flow, but it is an exciting prospect if executed correctly.

EDIT: added in the Twitter link to Pafundi

JohnnyKills · Jan 19, 2024

daba said:
With Utd effectively becoming part of the INEOS sporting portfolio, could we start seeing the other two football clubs (Nice and Lausanne in Swiss League) sign players with a long-term view of them playing for Man Utd in the future.

The Red Bull clubs have done this to great effect over the years with players such as Upamecano, Szoboszlai, Naby Keita, Haidara and in summer 23 both Sesko and Seiwald made the move. The City Group are the other obvious multi-club project doing transfers between clubs, however after looking at their transfers, it doesn't look like many if not players have really graduated up to Man City's first team yet (although I could see Savinho moving from Girona to City very soon) and Man City have largely used the other clubs to sell-on young players (I expect with buy back clauses) or loaning out young players to the likes of Girona, Troyes and Lommel SK for development.

The reason I'm starting this thread now is that we potentially might be seeing the first piece of action for the INEOS multi-club strategy with Lausanne set to sign highly rated Italian wonderkid Simone Pafundi on loan for 12 months with an option to buy for €15m. Any Football Manager 24 players out there should know this guys name (*spoiler* he's very good). Correct me if I'm wrong but €15m sounds like a lot for a Swiss League team to be splashing out on a player, so this certainly smells like a more strategic signing for INEOS.

I'm hoping we take a bit of a hybrid approach between what the Red Bull clubs have done with Salzburg effectively being a strategic feeder club for Leipzig where both clubs benefit, and how City have used the other portfolio clubs for strategic loans or players sales, again to the mutual benefit of both clubs. For example, could we buy Todibo or Thuram from Nice in exchange for a more modest fee and send Kambwala or Hannibal in the other direction as part of the deals (loans or perms).

Could we also sign cheap young players like Oscar Zambrano and send him straight to Lausanne or Nice to get used to European football before coming to the Utd 1st team similar to what Brighton did with Caicedo. Brighton although not part of a multi-club portfolio have been the most successful at doing this with young players in recent years, hence why they are now winning deals like Barco from Boca who is touted to be the next big thing at LB over clubs like City and Barcelona. All we need is for a few success stories of our multi-club strategy working (effectively like a business having customer case studies to show ROI) and suddenly it becomes a very attractive option for young players with ambitions to play at the top level.

Naturally this will take a few years to get into full flow, but it is an exciting prospect if executed correctly.

You'd assume so wouldn't you.

We tried it with Antwerp and it didn't really bear fruit. That's no reason it wouldn't work next time, particularly with several clubs involved.

SparkedIntoLife · Jan 19, 2024

It makes great sense and provides the perfect development ladder. It could also work well the other way. If someone we buy/produce is ultimately not quite United standard, maybe they land at Nice or Lausanne. I wonder if this type of setup will mean that we have a Manchester United DoF/Head of Recruitment but an overall INEOS DoF/Head of Recruitment. I believe Mitchell and Rangnick worked together in this type of configuration at Red Bull.

Skills · Jan 19, 2024

Would be foolish not to. France has the biggest pool of talent in Europe at the moment, and a top 5 league for players to develop and get gametime in.

daba · Jan 19, 2024

JohnnyKills said:
You'd assume so wouldn't you.

We tried it with Antwerp and it didn't really bear fruit. That's no reason it wouldn't work next time, particularly with several clubs involved.

Ahead of its time. Shame we don't have that relationship still with the promising Vermeeren coming through there.

MonkeysMagic · Jan 19, 2024

Of course Red Bull clubs and City group doing this is never an issue...but if Utd did it through Ineos group, it will have the authorities making an example of us by coming down like a tonne of bricks!

daba · Jan 19, 2024

SparkedIntoLife said:
It makes great sense and provides the perfect development ladder. It could also work well the other way. If someone we buy/produce is ultimately not quite United standard, maybe they land at Nice or Lausanne. I wonder if this type of setup will mean that we have a Manchester United DoF/Head of Recruitment but an overall INEOS DoF/Head of Recruitment. I believe Mitchell and Rangnick worked together in this type of configuration at Red Bull.

This acting as a development ladder is a great way of looking at it. I hadn't considered an overall INEOS Head of Recruitment but it makes sense for such a role to exist and I expect the clubs to share scouting network and databases at a minimum. Perhaps that type of role will be made as for this strategy to work we need synergy between the clubs and for all clubs to mutually benefit, not just Utd.

daba · Jan 19, 2024

Skills said:
Would be foolish not to. France has the biggest pool of talent in Europe at the moment, and a top 5 league for players to develop and get gametime in.

I agree, I think Ligue 1 and also Portugal are the perfect stepping stones to the Prem.

Oranges038 · Jan 19, 2024

JohnnyKills said:
You'd assume so wouldn't you.

We tried it with Antwerp and it didn't really bear fruit. That's no reason it wouldn't work next time, particularly with several clubs involved.

Part of it was to get around work permit rules for non EU players?

Funnily enough there are 2 players currently at Utd who spent time at Antwerp. It wasn't a success for the club as such, I think only O'Shea and Evans really made it at Utd. But for the players who went there, they got a chance to play for Utd after and if it didn't work out they were moved on. Quite a few went on to have really good careers away from Utd.

Carl · Jan 19, 2024

1 think we can be sure of is that the second we start to benefit from it we'll see some rules introduced to prevent it.

astracrazy · Jan 19, 2024

Oranges038 said:
Part of it was to get around work permit rules for non EU players?

Funnily enough there are 2 players currently at Utd who spent time at Antwerp. It wasn't a success for the club as such, I think only O'Shea and Evans really made it at Utd. But for the players who went there, they got a chance to play for Utd after and if it didn't work out they were moved on. Quite a few went on to have really good careers away from Utd.

I always thought that was the main purpose to be honest.

A link with Nice could work very well, especially with there access to young French players.

JohnnyKills · Jan 19, 2024

Oranges038 said:
Part of it was to get around work permit rules for non EU players?

Funnily enough there are 2 players currently at Utd who spent time at Antwerp. It wasn't a success for the club as such, I think only O'Shea and Evans really made it at Utd. But for the players who went there, they got a chance to play for Utd after and if it didn't work out they were moved on. Quite a few went on to have really good careers away from Utd.

Didn't future-PL-winners Simpson and De Laet spend time there?

Oranges038 · Jan 19, 2024

astracrazy said:
I always thought that was the main purpose to be honest.

A link with Nice could work very well, especially with there access to young French players.

It was for me on football manager anyway, think Belgium had something like a 2 year citizenship rule for non EU players.

JohnnyKills said:
Didn't future-PL-winners Simpson and De Laet spend time there?

I think so. It was a good place for young players at the club to go on loan an develop, they might not have been good enough for Utd in the end, but for a lot the players it was a good route to senior football.

It was a different arrangement to the multiclub model where clubs can transfer players between each other all under the same ownership umbrella. Now, it seems more like clubs are identifying and buying players from elsewhere and then using different contracts under the multi club model to sign them to different clubs and they can transfer them wherever they like.

Dan_F · Jan 19, 2024

Oranges038 said:
Part of it was to get around work permit rules for non EU players?

Funnily enough there are 2 players currently at Utd who spent time at Antwerp. It wasn't a success for the club as such, I think only O'Shea and Evans really made it at Utd. But for the players who went there, they got a chance to play for Utd after and if it didn't work out they were moved on. Quite a few went on to have really good careers away from Utd.

It is also, iconically, going to be used to help with Brexit rules. United aren’t able to sign 16/17 year olds from Europe any more, but they can sign them in the Swiss league and send them on to United when they turn 18.

Ali Dia · Jan 19, 2024

Players need to play senior football as early as possible. Letting lads go at 21 with one failed loan is not the way.

Also the likes of Gomes and now maybe Hansen, we could have got very decent money for them if they were slightly more exposed/developed by the time they left. Imagine being able to park the likes of Rossi and Pique at a club like Nice for a season together before making a final call and how that would have boosted their value. I do think a lot of players become frustrated in the u23 and just want to get out into the senior game as soon as possible. I feel like they would be happier to sign extensions with Utd if we were letting them build value and reputation away from here. I also think they’d be really determined to come back and play here at the really massive club. Once we have our ducks in a row I also think it could be a real goer for bringing talent from South/Central America and Asia at 18 and Europe from 16 and giving them a season in Switzerland and then a few in Nice and if they explode onto us for a proper fee. It makes a lot of sense to get them as many games as possible if you ever want to be selling players for a profit. It’s a numbers game like anything else. Pellistri for example playing regularly for the last few years in Europe could easily be worth treble what he is now.

Goldfiessli · Jan 19, 2024

A 15 million transfer would absolutely shatter the transfer record in Switzerland, which currently lies right around 5-7 million by my estimation.

I think it’d be foolish for United not to take advantage from this situation. Lausanne has a few good, young players (e.g. Alvyn Sanches) who could be an option for United in the future, although the step from Switzerland directly to the Prem will be too much for most (just ask Salah).

Chesterlestreet · Jan 19, 2024

Nice could easily be in the CL next season.

(United probably won't be, so there's that.)

But going forward: as far as I know, as things stand right now, I can't see how it wouldn't be a breach of UEFA rules to have United and Nice in the same competition (either the CL or the EL).

INEOS flat out own Nice. And if they take over as the "entity" effectively running United's "football side", I don't see how they could possibly be anything but an "influential entity" as per the current rules.

SparkedIntoLife · Jan 19, 2024

daba said:
This acting as a development ladder is a great way of looking at it. I hadn't considered an overall INEOS Head of Recruitment but it makes sense for such a role to exist and I expect the clubs to share scouting network and databases at a minimum. Perhaps that type of role will be made as for this strategy to work we need synergy between the clubs and for all clubs to mutually benefit, not just Utd.

For sure. I know that Florent Ghisolfi is doing a good job as Sporting Director at Nice after impressing at Lens. He’s very young though so an overseer like Dan Ashworth managing him and maybe Paul Mitchell at United makes sense.

I can’t seem to find who is the equivalent at Lausanne. Maybe we could send them Murtough or Fletcher

Skills · Jan 19, 2024

Goldfiessli said:
A 15 million transfer would absolutely shatter the transfer record in Switzerland, which currently lies right around 5-7 million by my estimation.

I think it’d be foolish for United not to take advantage from this situation. Lausanne has a few good, young players (e.g. Alvyn Sanches) who could be an option for United in the future, although the step from Switzerland directly to the Prem will be too much for most (just ask Salah).

Surely the route is Lausanne -> Nice -> United

And vice versa.

Rojofiam · Jan 19, 2024

The fee this Italian kid is going for definitely signals Ineos' intentions

Maybe Nice can go and get that Zambrano kid for one or two seasons

daba · Jan 19, 2024

Rojofiam said:
The fee this Italian kid is going for definitely signals Ineos' intentions

Maybe Nice can go and get that Zambrano kid for one or two seasons

Exactly my thoughts on Zambrano.

daba · Jan 19, 2024

Chesterlestreet said:
Nice could easily be in the CL next season.

(United probably won't be, so there's that.)

But going forward: as far as I know, as things stand right now, I can't see how it wouldn't be a breach of UEFA rules to have United and Nice in the same competition (either the CL or the EL).

INEOS flat out own Nice. And if they take over as the "entity" effectively running United's "football side", I don't see how they could possibly be anything but an "influential entity" as per the current rules.

That whole same owner stuff is either a load of baloney or super easy to get around. If that was such an issue then the Red Bull clubs wouldn’t be able to do it and then City would face a similar situation with Girona if they get in the CL. But as it’s Utd the media put out these stories to cause more unrest with the fans and to generate clicks. Don’t bite at it.

Chesterlestreet · Jan 19, 2024

daba said:
That whole same owner stuff is either a load of baloney or super easy to get around. If that was such an issue then the Red Bull clubs wouldn’t be able to do it and then City would face a similar situation with Girona if they get in the CL. But as it’s Utd the media put out these stories to cause more unrest with the fans and to generate clicks. Don’t bite at it.

Yes, it seems so.

The Red Bull clubs actually did something - moved around certain people, directors and whatnot, to make it look more legit. I don't remember the details, but it was a half-story at the time.

As for Girona, I don't remember anything - other than the point being brought up on here.

And - in case anyone wondered - I don't actually expect this to be an issue for United either. I just find it interesting. Because it - clearly - seems to be an obvious breach of UEFA rules.

(To be clear, the rules don't go into percentages - it's not a matter of how many % of a club you own, but whether you are an "influential entity". If INEOS take over as the actual decision maker on the "football side" of Manchester United, that's pretty feckin' influential by most standards.)

Plant0x84 · Jan 19, 2024

If we can make it work within the regulations this is one of the more exciting benefits of being at the top of a multi club structure. It was a plus to the INEOS bid for sure.

Ish · Jan 19, 2024

JohnnyKills said:
You'd assume so wouldn't you.

We tried it with Antwerp and it didn't really bear fruit. That's no reason it wouldn't work next time, particularly with several clubs involved.

Yep, probably because we had clueless gimps in charge. Here's hoping this works better.

reddev3 · Jan 19, 2024

Brighton do it with Union SG, Adingra has just come back from there and was doing great in the league until his injury and Mitoma done the same thing last season.

Edit: well not quite the same as Brighton bought these players and then loaned them to their sister club but it's a similar idea.

We could have sent Amad straight to Nice for example a few years ago and he might have been ripping up Lique 1 by 20 and we could have had our own Doku/Hazard/Dembele instead of scrabbling around trying to find a team from a lower level that would hopefully give him some minutes.

daba · Jan 19, 2024

Chesterlestreet said:
Yes, it seems so.

The Red Bull clubs actually did something - moved around certain people, directors and whatnot, to make it look more legit. I don't remember the details, but it was a half-story at the time.

As for Girona, I don't remember anything - other than the point being brought up on here.

And - in case anyone wondered - I don't actually expect this to be an issue for United either. I just find it interesting. Because it - clearly - seems to be an obvious breach of UEFA rules.

(To be clear, the rules don't go into percentages - it's not a matter of how many % of a club you own, but whether you are an "influential entity". If INEOS take over as the actual decision maker on the "football side" of Manchester United, that's pretty feckin' influential by most standards.)

I read up on Girona and City a while back and supposedly they are in the clear with regards to the CL, and City Group own 47% of Girona. If it is a case of percentages we’ll be fine but even if not then I’m sure everything will be structured in a way to avoid it. Might even have been a reason for the project taking so long to get confirmed before Xmas.

daba · Jan 19, 2024

reddev3 said:
Brighton do it with Union SG, Adingra has just come back from there and was doing great in the league until his injury and Mitoma done the same thing last season.

Edit: well not quite the same as Brighton bought these players and then loaned them to their sister club but it's a similar idea.

We could have sent Amad straight to Nice for example a few years ago and he might have been ripping up Lique 1 by 20 and we could have had our own Doku/Hazard/Dembele instead of scrabbling around trying to find a team from a lower level that would hopefully give him some minutes.

Amad is a great example of how this sort of structure would have helped.

Important thing would be for each club to play a similar style of football. To my knowledge, Nice have a very forward thinking coach who worked under De Zerbi (a De Zerbian I think that’s now called lol) so you’d hope that is how INEOS plan to have Utd playing sooner rather than later.

Big Ben Foster · Jan 22, 2024

Chesterlestreet said:
Nice could easily be in the CL next season.

(United probably won't be, so there's that.)

But going forward: as far as I know, as things stand right now, I can't see how it wouldn't be a breach of UEFA rules to have United and Nice in the same competition (either the CL or the EL).

INEOS flat out own Nice. And if they take over as the "entity" effectively running United's "football side", I don't see how they could possibly be anything but an "influential entity" as per the current rules.

I'd imagine the legal experts on team Ratcliffe have already taken that into consideration. It could explain why the Trawlers entity was created to purchase the stake in the club rather than INEOS, for instance. Most likely the specific INEOS people making footballing decisions for United won't be directly involved with Nice, and they'll create just enough of a firewall between the two clubs to comply with regulations.

cyberman · Jan 22, 2024

Chesterlestreet said:
Nice could easily be in the CL next season.

(United probably won't be, so there's that.)

But going forward: as far as I know, as things stand right now, I can't see how it wouldn't be a breach of UEFA rules to have United and Nice in the same competition (either the CL or the EL).

INEOS flat out own Nice. And if they take over as the "entity" effectively running United's "football side", I don't see how they could possibly be anything but an "influential entity" as per the current rules.

Hasn’t Jim legally bought this on his own?

INEOS multi-club transfer network

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Snitch

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

has permanently erect nipples

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Man of the crowd

Full Member

Snitch

Full Member

Full Member

Full Member

Man of the crowd

Shame we’re aren’t more like Brighton

Lights on for Luke

New Member

Full Member

Full Member

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

Full Member