TBH - anybody who voluntarily jumps down a mountain with planks in the snow should be in the loony bin IMO
Should players with defibs be allowed to play Premier League or should we ban them like Serie A?
- Thread starter Murder on Zidane's Floor
- Start date
Are there really that many?
AgreedTBH - anybody who voluntarily jumps down a mountain with planks in the snow should be in the loony bin IMO
I am indeed a “medical guy” but I’m not a cardiologist. And I’m absolutely certain that a cardiologist will have a better grasp than me of the body of evidence that outlines the risks vs benefits of footballers in general getting back to playing football in this scenario. And believe me, critical appraisal of all available evidence that relates to decisions like this involves a hell of a lot more than doing whatever googling you did to throw up the the publications you linked to above.Bold is a good point, would probably be dead or maybe he'd of never put himself under the strain required of a PL footballer. Who knows. But your argument kind of implies, that it's fine for him because he plays at a level with world-class medical care on hand. So what, he must always play at this level so the best medical care is always on standby for him. If he drops down two leagues, what then? I just don't get this kinda of argument, seems kinda of strange and well, not thought out.
"The fact he has collapsed twice has nothing to do with the rationale for the ban in Italy"
No, my rationale was the fact he has collapsed twice, nothing to do with Italy, you misunderstood. I was also showing you why, in answer to your question, Italy banned it in the quote.
"I doubt there’s any evidence that physical exertion increases the risk of these sort of sudden cardiac arrhythmias"
These data suggest that a blanket recommendation against competitive sports for all patients with ICDs is not warranted. There are risks and benefits of sports participation. However, neither do these data suggest that all sports are safe for all patients. How best to evaluate individual risk is an important avenue of future research. Stress testing is important to evaluate for the propensity of frequent exercise-induced ventricular arrhythmias, as well as for CPVT or ischemia, as clinically relevant. In addition, for patients with arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy, preliminary data37–39 suggest that exercise could accelerate the progression of the underlying disease. How physical activity might affect the phenotype in other cardiomyopathies such as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy has not been studied.
You're a medical guy, I am not, I'll leave this with you to understand. Interestingly, I have found the below studies, both with different conclusions/lots of detail - really quite interesting either way so thought I'd share
Third, with the increased employment of the implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (ICD) it is inevitable that increasing numbers of high-risk athletes with defibrillators will come to recognition. Although differences of opinion exist and little direct evidence is available, the panel asserts that the presence of an ICD (whether for primary or secondary prevention of sudden death) should disqualify athletes from most competitive sports (with the exception of low-intensity, class IA), including those that potentially involve bodily trauma. The presence of an implantable device in high-risk patients with cardiovascular disease should not be regarded as protective therapy and therefore a justification for permitting participation in competitive sports that would otherwise be restricted. This conservative but prudent posture is justified on the basis of the uncertainties associated with ICDs during intense competitive sports, including the possibility that the device will not perform effectively at peak exercise, the likelihood of a sinus tachycardia-triggered inappropriate shock or an appropriate discharge, and the risk for physical injury to the athlete or other competitors as the result of an ICD shock. Also, pacemaker-dependent athletes should not participate in most competitive sports that potentially involve bodily trauma.
The Bethesda guidelines state that patients with an ICD can participate only in “Class IA” activities, such as bowling or golf, restricting competition in sports such as track, basketball, lacrosse, and field hockey, as well as sports with a likelihood of severe impact to the ICD, such as football and hockey.
Much more importantly, the cardiologist will also know how applicable or not this evidence will be to the patient sitting in front of them. And seeing as neither you nor I have any clue about Tom Lockyer’s exact diagnosis, never mind his medical history, or risk factors which might cause another event then it seems pretty stupid to start pretending we know what’s best for him. That’s a decision which should be between him and his cardiologist. As it should be with all of these cases. Which is the bottom line here.
You're quite literally the most disingenuous poster on here, man.
I was reaching out in good faith as I try to do with you and you just spew back shit tbh. I thought I was sharing interesting bits on the subject - by the way which doesn't validate the argument either way - because it interests me and I have/had a view on it (which I am happy to change) and am changing after spending a few hours reading stuff regarding defibs and trying to learn. Seems the risk in contact sports are there but not the risks of him collapsing again.
But you're just digging at me with shit like this; And believe me, critical appraisal of all available evidence that relates to decisions like this involves a hell of a lot more than doing whatever googling you did to throw up the publications you linked to above.
Just a typical Pogue response. Still miffed over our quarrels in the crypto and EV threads. I thought you, as a medical professional would find the research on this subject interesting and it would be great to learn more, alas what a dumb idea. Rather you just have a go at me for creating the thread in the first place. I should have known better tbh.
Cry me a river. You claim to want to learn more but when someone explains to you why this is something that should be decided on a case by case basis by experts in the relevant field who are responsible for the medical care of the footballers concerned - with no need for the blanket ban you suggest - you throw a strop because that’s not the answer you want to hear.
Absolutely standard contribution from you, in basically every thread. So spare us the horseshit about “I’m just here to learn” Whether it’s crypto, electric cars, aeroplanes or your health anxiety. You have absolutely no interest in learning anything that might challenge your preconceived notions and you know damn well I’m not the only person whose patience you’ve been testing on all of these topics.
Last edited:
Again you're entire world view is closed off, so it is ironic you talk about preconceived notions when this is all you spout in every thread. Best part is debate, questions, disagreement is "throwing a strop".
Basically, don't ask questions, don't discuss anything, don't have a view, just agree with Pogue.
You contribute nothing here and strut about like some fecking arbiter of what should and shouldn't be posted, questioned etc.
When you're challenged on ANYTHING you go for the poster or just tell people you're not reading their posts. It's borderline WUM behaviour.
And likewise Pogue, people are bored of your horseshit in every thread, speaking down to people because your view is the only one that counts. The arrogance is jarring.
I'm actually changing my mind in this thread (I know something foreign to you) and am reconsidering my feelings over a blanket ban, but that's by listening to other people, again a foreign concept to you, unless that is when people suggest a fecking broadband provider and TV package to you.
Just toxic all round.
My gut said yes. So I read some research papers and was proven wrong.
A 2016 study by the American College of Cardiology revealed 100 - 150 deaths per year for competitive athletes suffering sudden cardiac arrest in the US alone. It's really difficult to find accurate statistics purely for football, but an observational study by FIFA Sudden Death Registry over a 5 year period (2014-18) claimed 33 elite level football players suffered sudden cardiac death worldwide.
Sounds high, but actually the prevalence of sudden cardiac arrest is far lower in elite athletes than that found in non-athletes of the same age group. It falls well within tolerance levels.
In theory, even if they didn't play sport, its quite possible they could have collapsed running for a bus etc.
That being said, there is a research paper that briefly discusses the relationship between sudden cardiac arrest and high intense training, performance enhancing drugs and over use of antihistamines in elite sport. But there isn't a definitive conclusion.
That's a good comparison to make, because regular folks don't garner headlines and it appears that they re actually higher-risk
The latter will probably never happen because the sample sizes will always be too low,