Depends on your definition of best, if he's not top 5 of his generation then that's not counting previous generations - Ronaldo, Romario, Muller, Puskas, Eusebio, Van Basten etc, all of a sudden he's going well down the list. Could make an argument for top 15 but I think that's too far down to be 'best striker of all time' category.Yes but Mbappe is being talked about as a potential GOAT, if that's your bar, you immediately are comparing him to Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona etc. If we say Henry (obviously) and Lewa are better than him, that's fair, even add in Benzema and, as above, Suarez, he's in the top 5 strikers of a period of over a decade which surely makes him amongst the best of all time when you specifically talk about CFs? He's going to be top 15, maybe even top 10 on most people's lists behind the obvious big names.
Ibrahimovic had plenty of opportunities, 124 games in the Champions League. Rarely if ever for a bad team. Most players would dream of that many opportunities.You can’t use the thing about Ibra scoring goals in worse divisions then count Lewandowski’s strengths as the same reason.
Ibra never truly got the chance to dominate Europe at any point apart from his year in Barcelona (when he was played on the wing and fell out with Pep).
I said he would be top 5?Depends on your definition of best, if he's not top 5 of his generation then that's not counting previous generations - Ronaldo, Romario, Muller, Puskas, Eusebio, Van Basten etc, all of a sudden he's going well down the list. Could make an argument for top 15 but I think that's too far down to be 'best striker of all time' category.
Stats don't tell stories... I think Ibrahimovic simply created more memorable moments than Lewandowski ever did. In terms of quality I don't really think there is a gap between themYou can’t use the thing about Ibra scoring goals in worse divisions then count Lewandowski’s strengths as the same reason.
Ibra never truly got the chance to dominate Europe at any point apart from his year in Barcelona (when he was played on the wing and fell out with Pep).
Ibra when he played in Serie A was a very special player. He dominated a division tougher than anything Lewandowski has played in week to week.
Lewa pips him club wise ‘maybe’ because of his European record… but he played in a stacked Bayern squad…
Ibrahimovic scored more beautiful goals and won just as many trophies in less stacked squads apart from the PSG years domestically.
Ibrahimovic also left more of a mark on the game in international football. His brilliance really outshone anything Lewandowski ever managed for Poland.
Don’t get me wrong both are very equal I think in skill terms. It’s tough to choose between them. Both are two of the all time greatest players. I think if anything both will be underrated in the future due to Messi and Ronaldo.
Sorry to be pedantic then you probably shouldn't say 'all-time', should say 'past 30 years' or whatever, assumed if you say all-time that you're counting all those players too.One who I think was underrated but is now overrated is Drogba. He was great and a big game player but really he had 2 outstanding seasons in the PL from a goalscoring perspective and probably 4 overall but he was there 9 seasons and then basically retired and did the big money league circuits. He was amazing but he's not amongst the elite of the elite.
I said he would be top 5?
Also I guess I'm thinking of recent(ish) players who I have actually seen play. With guys like Eusebio, Pele, Puskas etc. we basically all just go off what people say and their stats. That's not take their achievements away but I just have no idea how good they were at all myself.
All good, it's a reason bale thing to say.Sorry to be pedantic then you probably shouldn't say 'all-time', should say 'past 30 years' or whatever, assumed if you say all-time that you're counting all those players too.
Also not to be too argumentative haha, but I don't agree on Drogba either. I think the way stats have gone, people tend more to underrate than overrate him these days because some of his goal totals were underwhelming. But he's still probably the best hold-up striker in big games I've seen in the Premier League, that strength and his touch/presence was massive, there's a reason he was so good in finals. He also bullied a lot of centre-backs. Not Vidic though, who used to have his number pretty well. But there's a reason why Lampard scored so many goals, Drogba was a tremendous asset and a unique player that you can't drill down to just stats.
Most reasonable people won't claim he's amongst the best fullbacks in the league but more than good enough for a top four side. Don't think he would've gotten binned - the problem is the injuries and managing his playing time and having decent rotation options is what we need.Overrated: Luke Shaw - Some here say he's one of the league's best. In reality, Fergie would have binned him 3/4 seasons ago (when Mourinho tried).
Messi in his first seasons had paperwork and permits issues and later he was constantly injured, from fouls like the Emerson one, to hamstrings and such, he missed many matches during quite a number of seasons in his youth.I didn't watch much of Messi in 2006-07 but I don't recall him being spoken about on the same level as Ronaldo and Kaka that season. Either way - Ronaldo was definitely in the top 3 dribblers in the world from 2006-2009.
To claim that Ronaldo's dribbling ability has become overrated is bizarre (unless we're only referring to the Ronaldo we saw in his 30s).
Not really man, I get what you are saying, but the dude is a proper machine and he ran like hell his whole carreer and has the physique to deal with it.He may look a bit stiff, but I would call it much-needed energy-saving. If CR7 tried to imitate pre-weight gain R-9 or Robben's dribbling style I suspect he would never last 90 minutes when you look at his position on the pitch, expectations, and his size. When you look at players who were tall, and had great ball control but got significantly heavier in their career, it changed their movement/dribbling style massively even though they had as good ball control as before.
Look at the video of Ibra's goals in the Champions League. He never scored a goal or even moved similar to his goal vs Lyon or Celta Vigo after leaving ajax, as he packed on 10 kg of muscles shortly after. Your body can handle those light dancing steps combined with direction change up until a certain point when you're forced to move more narrowly
Hazard, Neymar, Robben and Ribery yes, clearly / Aguero - are you kidding / Di Maria and Iniesta...yes and no. Iniesta was better in tight spaces and deeper areas, worse in 1vs1 situations closer to goal and open space. Di Maria...pretty even honestlyI think it depends on how where you rate him. He went from being a great to good to somewhat average dribbler over his career. In his era i think Messi obviously, but also Hazard, Neymar, Ribery, Aguero, Robben And Iniesta were better than him. Possibly Di Maria as well. In terms of dribbling he is a great of his generation but all.time falls pretty flat.
The thing is we are conditioned to think of athleticism in terms of track and field type of athleticism, and Cristiano had that type of elite athleticism for football. But he didn't have elite athleticism for dribbling. That's what Messi, Neymar, Hazard, etc had. Cristiano never had the kind of lateral speed and devastating first step to be an all time great dribbler. At his physical peak(20-25) he was absolutely an elite dribbler, but he still usually needed dynamic situations for itIt's more that he hasn't that ability of space awarness, really extreme control of the ball in a GOAT or dribbling specialist level.
Not kidding with Aguero. Him.and Cristiano have about the same amount of completed dribbles despite Aguero playing half as many minutes. I can remember watching Aguero's footage over decade ago before he joined city and being gobsmacked about how are good dribbler he was.Hazard, Neymar, Robben and Ribery yes, clearly / Aguero - are you kidding / Di Maria and Iniesta...yes and no. Iniesta was better in tight spaces and deeper areas, worse in 1vs1 situations closer to goal and open space. Di Maria...pretty even honestly
The thing is we are conditioned to think of athleticism in terms of track and field type of athleticism, and Cristiano had that type of elite athleticism for football. But he didn't have elite athleticism for dribbling. That's what Messi, Neymar, Hazard, etc had. Cristiano never had the kind of lateral speed and devastating first step to be an all time great dribbler. At his physical peak(20-25) he was absolutely an elite dribbler, but he still usually needed dynamic situations for it
There was another Colombian bloke named Quintero in the same mold, but with much worst wok ethic: amazing left foot and dribbling technique but terrible teamwork ethics. These left footed colombians seem to have that in common.I've seen bin at Real Madrid, what can I tell you, his top level was absurd. Too bad he didn't care enough
Underrated after a few bad seasons, because at U21 level he looked head and shoulders above practically every player of his generation.Underrated: Diogo Dalot, he's become a very reliable RB and I don't feel we need to invest in that position right now.
Overrated: Luis Diaz, a pace merchant with no real quality.
Quintero never had a season like James in 14/15 (or 17/18 for Bayern) thoughThere was another Colombian bloke named Quintero in the same mold, but with much worst wok ethic: amazing left foot and dribbling technique but terrible teamwork ethics. These left footed colombians seem to have that in common.
@Gehrman huh, that's genuinely surprising. I'd still not rank Aguero with Cristiano or the others as he was a very different type of dribbler, more of a box type rather than a ball carrier
Yeah but he still wasn't really a high level ball carrier
As far as remember Aguero was more 2nd striker or Rooney type at Athletico while Forlan was the CF.
Why am I not surprised you find Lewandowski underrated.OVERRATED
Pedri: Slow and weak and extremely indecisive in the final third. Always plays it safe. He has major stamina issues and looks extremely tired around the 60 minute mark. He's the player profile that appeals to modern Football fans which is exactly what made him so comically overrated. People see a diminutive Spanish technician and just go "He's the next Iniesta/Xavi"; also injury prone and has poor presence against high quality European opposition.
Marcus Rashford: The conversations around Rashford always seem like he's one of the best players and biggest stars in the league. His PR team has done an amazing job in portraying him as this iconic, World Class future United legend. I firmly believe United can never win a league with Rashford as a starter. He lacks consistency, is limited and his work rate is pathetic for someone who isn't an elite attacker. Only truly elite attackers are allowed to be that lazy and entitled. Just a decent Premier League player. Will never be truly World Class.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic: Only just retired so he counts! Great player but nowhere near as good as he or his PR team thinks he is. There's a slight overlap between certain Football Fans and those edgy teenagers who idolize Andrew Tate. This is the exact demographic that laps up Zlatan's cringeworthy quotes and "jokes" which were amusing 15 years back but now it's just stale, boring and sad really. For someone who keeps on rambling about "Lion mentality", Zlatan did routinely disappear from big games and CL knockouts throughout his career. More than half of his career goals are in the French, Dutch, Swedish and American leagues. Total Flat-track bully. There are so many better players than him from his generation alone.
UNDERRATED
Wataru Endo: Absolute bargain for Liverpool. Solid DM with great ball winning ability and very high Football IQ. Great in the air and keeps it simple on the ball instead of making silly schoolboy errors. Very mature and always a nightmare to play against. His performance nullifying De Bruyne was amazing. Smart, hardworking and has a huge impact when he plays. Been one of the best DMs in the league this season.
Ilkay Gundogan: It's about time we talk about Gundogan as one of the finest midfielders of his generation. His body of work is really impressive. Did great at Dortmund and won trophies. Went to City and was an integral part of their success for a long time. Now, he's been really impressive for Barcelona and is turning up when they need him the most. Performed at a high level in 3 different leagues. Very well rounded player and extremely clutch. Always seems to score in the biggest and most important games. Fantastic player who deserves way more respect.
Robert Lewandowski: A finished Robert Lewandowski has better numbers than most World Class attackers have in their peaks. Came into a new league where Barca were struggling and won them trophies and already has around 75 Goal Contributions(56G + 19A) in a season and a half. Staggering record at every level and will end his career at well above 700 career goals. Impeccable consistency and fitness record throughout his career. His career speaks for itself really. Imagine the hype if he was Brazilian, French, English, etc! One of the greatest to ever do it.
Félix deal is a very shady deal. One day we will find how much of those 126M€ went to pay another "carrousel" transfers from transfer market monopoly agents.maybe someone who watches a lot of Portuguese and Spanish football debate this but for me Joao Felix is overrated, his goal output was poor at Athletico, he does not seem to be doing much at Barca and was useless at Chelsea. A classic case of a player that looks good but isn't.
I have seen the argument that Athletico is not the best place for strikers but heck, even Morata is doing well there.
I hear you, i purposely left out the transfer fee in my post as that can unfairly weight heavy against a player sometimes (Antony).Félix deal is a very shady deal. One day we will find how much of those 126M€ went to pay another "carrousel" transfers from transfer market monopoly agents.
Antony was probably a "clean" transfer. Félix money transfer was that high because most of it was reinvested in bulk packages of players. But that's for another topic.I hear you, i purposely left out the transfer fee in my post as that can unfairly weight heavy against a player sometimes (Antony).
what do you think of Felix as a player though, as a Benfica supporter you would have seen him as a young player ?Antony was probably a "clean" transfer. Félix money transfer was that high because most of it was reinvested in bulk packages of players. But that's for another topic.
He had an amazing half-season and looked like had tons of potential. He basically lead us to the title in a season where everything seemed lost. The transfer value was clearly strange because we are talking about a young player who only had 6 months at Benfica main squad.what do you think of Felix as a player though, as a Benfica supporter you would have seen him as a young player ?
That's piss poor defending rather than good dribbling.
As far as remember Aguero was more of 2nd striker or Rooney type at Athletico while Forlan was the CF.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/is-mbappe-the-best-french-player-ever.474152/page-17Mbappé has been consistently talked about as a potential GOAT, or GOAT-adjacent, yeah. Don't know where you live or what media you consume, but I've never seen anybody compare him to Henry, except stylistically. He was drawing Ronaldo comparisons at 18 ffs
I am not saying he is a terrible player, the guy is generational. We should be happy to see a better player than Messi in our lifetime, which in all due respect, Mbappe isn't.He has every chance of ending his career as all time CL scorer, he already has a WC and the golden boot from the WC. Ballon d'or means very little in reality, it's journalists voting and he'll likely clean up given he's going to Real. What matters is what you can see which is a highly technical player who is not solely reliant on his speed, he's an elite finisher already, scores bangers, beats people for fun and likely has 5-8 years left at this top level.
A question to you would be who, if you have to pick a single player today, is the most likely to catch Ronaldo's CL goal record and rival Messi/Ronaldo's output?
Hard to know, I think the thing that counts against Mbappe that favoured Messi/Ronaldo, is we really did see nearly a decade of both of them having teams literally built around them. I'm not sure that happens anymore in football if you want to win the big prizes, how he fits into the Bellingham, Vini, Rodrygo setup will be fascinating. I'm sure people who saw x,y or z great player thought they'd never see someone else as good but as long as money pours into sport the level of the best players should push ever upwards. It might not be Mbappe but he's 100% the guy people would put money on, if you had to, to rival those two right now.I am not saying he is a terrible player, the guy is generational. We should be happy to see a better player than Messi in our lifetime, which in all due respect, Mbappe isn't.
Mbappe will probably be the closest to get to their output, but will still fall short of them which is never a slight. What he has going for him, is that he was world class aged 18, and productive. They started later in that regard, but their peak is something I can't see him reaching. Messi and Ronaldo are the best forwards of the last 30 years if you'd ask me.
He's like mason mount without the skills. I watched him few times and cant understand whats so special about him. Everything he did seems bang average. If he played for fulham/wolves or any other mid to lower table clubs no one would give a single feck abt himOverrated: Conor Gallagher
I don't get it. Chelsea fans and the media have done an excellent propaganda job on him. Top player apparently yet no one can name any standout qualities of his that aren't based around how much he can run. Spurs fans were clamouring for us to blow £50m on him (he presses so well they all cried). I'm convinced that the only reason they've talked themselves into believing that is that they think it would mean us getting one over on Chelsea, when in actuality he's not good enough for where Chelsea want to be, nor us. He also looks annoyingly like Jordan Henderson with a man bun.
Not as good as 2 Goat is a testamentI actually think Haaland is a little overrated. He's the best finisher in the world but when his team is being outplayed or he's not getting service, he's anonymous. The likes of Messi and Ronaldo can create their own chances and, in Messi's case, control games as well as scoring at ridiculous rates. Unfortunately most just look at goalscoring
Actually kane is a better finisher,he misses far less chances.I actually think Haaland is a little overrated. He's the best finisher in the world but when his team is being outplayed or he's not getting service, he's anonymous. The likes of Messi and Ronaldo can create their own chances and, in Messi's case, control games as well as scoring at ridiculous rates. Unfortunately most just look at goalscoring
I seen somebody say this exact thing on a ronaldo youtube video,it is a very strange perspective.Thats like saying the best short basketball player is as good for his height as the tallest basketball players,but just ignore the fact that he is is less effective because he cannot help being shorter.That is just silly.I think with his starting point(187/85) he was as creative and good at dribbling as they come. His size automatically makes it impossible to be a Messi/Neymar/type, but when he competes against other 185cm + guys he is the only one at that level. Even though we don't have weight/height classes in football, very different bodies still have different limitations of course.
Man, I hate how me saying Ronaldo wasn't an overrated dribbler during his United years has turned into a Messi-Ronaldo debate. Very predictable I guess.Messi finished 3rd in the ballon d'or in 2007 despite spending alot of time on the treatment table. If you weren't hearing about him, it's because you are too premier league centric. But, if you watched him, when fit, his allround play was already better than Kaka's and Cristiano's.
Having said that, interms of dribbling and general approach play, Ronaldo's best season was 06/07 and for me (given Messi's injury issues), he was the bpitw for most of the season. 07/08 was decent interms of dribbling but what stood out by far was his goals as was the case during his prime years at Madrid, 08/09 wasn't really good.
I'm not comparing him to Messi. In 06/07 season, Cristiano was one of the best dribblers in the world. 07/08 was good but not at 06/07 level. 08/09 not so good in keeping with his general performances during that season.Man, I hate how me saying Ronaldo wasn't an overrated dribbler during his United years has turned into a Messi-Ronaldo debate. Very predictable I guess.
I'm happy to concede he was never as good a dribbler as Messi, even during Messi's early years, if it means people will accept Ronaldo was one of the best dribblers in the world at the time.
