'Invincible' all-girl football team goes whole season unbeaten - in boys' league

Rood · Apr 22, 2024

Stack said:
It used to be that way because of numbers playing and also availability of quality coaching for girls. 20 years ago I had a 7 year old girl in a boys team I coached, she stayed in the team till she was 14 and ended up playing for NZ at an u17 WC. Back then there just werent the girls teams that were good enough. I coached her both in this boys club team but she also ended up in a regional representative academy coaching system here. That group was an all girls group and the difference in how she interacted with her team mates was significantly different. She was so much happier and engaged in the girls rep team. She was pretty quiet and shy among the boys. Thats anecdotal i know but there has been work done looking into this and it does show in general that girls work better in training and games in an all girl setup. Of course even today you will find situations where an individual will benefit from a mixed training.
The growth of the girls and womens game has meant the numbers have really taken off and with it the numbers of quality coaches that coach girls has risen. Today because of the numbers and coaching quality you will often see 9 year old girls teams playing at the same level as a 9 year old boys team in terms of technical and skill quality. Once puberty kicks in the boys physical difference changes everything.

Makes sense on the social aspect and team bonding, like you say some might still benefit from playing mixed though.

I manage a grassroots team nowadays and even around Manchester where there are many girls teams, some are choosing to stick to mixed football.
Although I say 'mixed' but usually this ends up being a team of boys with 1 or 2 girls.

A new development for me recently was seeing a team that was mostly girls with a couple of boys. It's a dilemma for many grassroots teams nowadays whether to keep younger age groups mixed or seperate.

Snow · Apr 23, 2024

JPRouve said:
It's an age where the athletic difference is still not that big, so it will depend a lot on the level of the league. Then puberty hits.

Somewhat disagree. More the wording than your point. 11 years of age is the perfect age where the average girls are physically bigger than the boys. I've got a class of kids born 2008. 3 years ago a girl was a top 3 player for that year. Now she doesn't stand a chance. Boys are so much faster and the muscle mass growth is rapid whilst she's not that much different in strength, speed or size.

Stack · Apr 23, 2024

Rood said:
Makes sense on the social aspect and team bonding, like you say some might still benefit from playing mixed though.

I manage a grassroots team nowadays and even around Manchester where there are many girls teams, some are choosing to stick to mixed football.
Although I say 'mixed' but usually this ends up being a team of boys with 1 girl.

A new development for me recently was seeing a team that was mostly girls with a couple of boys. It's a dilemma for many grassroots teams nowadays whether to keep younger age groups mixed or seperate.

Its one of those things where for the majority of the time playing girls in only girls teams will generally work best but it doesnt mean its right all of the time. Its a bit like where its generally better for kids to play within their own age group but every now and then there are situations where its better to play a player up an age group. The main difficulty is making sure the people making the decisions to go outside the preferred situation are well versed in all the issues and the decisions are made for the right reasons and in appropriate circumstances. One issue is that roughly 90% of kids football is essentially social and for enjoyment, so making sure the right balance relative for that is important. Making sure that whats required for the 10% who might go on to play higher level amateur or become pro players is not impacting on the 90% and vice versa.
Grassroots football is so important not just in football terms, those involved are superstars in my opinion. I think the most important coaches in any country are the coaches of the 5 to 12 year olds (roughly), they set the tone for the sport, build the basics and can mean people stay in the game for life. At any club they are more important than the coach of the top senior teams.

cj_sparky · Apr 23, 2024

My niece's ex team a WSL 2 U16's side finished bottom of their U14 league with 12 loses and 2 draws, scoring 7 and conceding 114.

I'm not going to post all the club names of the U16 girls teams featuring in the U14 leagues, but in leagues with 1 girls side they are bottom, 2 girls side they are bottom 2 and 3 girls side they make up the bottom 3.

I will say that United's U16's are the only one I can see above a Boy's U14 side, sitting 3rd bottom with another U16's girls team bottom.

That_Bloke · Apr 23, 2024

I honestly do not understand this new and raging need to pit women against men in sports.

As long as physical attributes are heavily involved, women will always draw the short straw. That's how human biology decided it would be, and there's little that can be done about it. It has nothing to do with women's skills or inherent abilities.

I personally find women volley-ball, football and especially tennis, to name the sports I follow, highly competitive and as enjoyable as the men's counter-part, sometimes even more. It never came to my mind to disminish their achievements or use men's performances to take a dump on theirs. Nor the necessity of having them competiting against each other to prove a point I just don't see.

Drainy · Apr 23, 2024

In youth football there is always talk of one team being more physically advanced, which does happen but that's football.

Winning a league undefeated is a marvelous achievement at any level so let's just be happy for them.

Glorio · Apr 23, 2024

Zehner said:
Is that correct? As far as I know, men have biological advantages when it comes to estimating distances and the calculating speed/trajectory etc. so I guess that helps when it comes to first touch, passing, spatial awareness, timing etc. On the other hand, women have better peripheral view which should help with vision, multitasking and spatial awareness as well.

On a sidenote, is there a sport in which men and women can compete completely equally, as in the top athletes of both sexes could as well just play against each other? I once heard that Tennis should be pretty balanced?

Darts I would have thought? Perhaps some forms of auto racing too?

For Boxing followers, Claressa Shields relentlessly hounding Keith Thurman for a fight for years now is so weird and funny. She's somehow convinced she can beat him and has zeroed in on him for whatever reason. It's not like they have any past beef or shared history.

jeepers · Apr 23, 2024

That_Bloke said:
I honestly do not understand this new and raging need to pit women against men in sports.

As long as physical attributes are heavily involved, women will always draw the short straw. That's how human biology decided it would be, and there's little that can be done about it. It has nothing to do with women's skills or inherent abilities.

I personally find women volley-ball, football and especially tennis, to name the sports I follow, highly competitive and as enjoyable as the men's counter-part, sometimes even more. It never came to mind to disminish their achievements or take the men's performances to take a dump on how women perform. Nor the necessity of having them competiting against each other to prove a point I just don't see.

Isn’t because of wokeism and that gender equality debate? It’s the flavour of the month and generates interest/captures attention. It’s really sad that it is affecting kids as well.

Drainy · Apr 23, 2024

jeepers said:
Isn’t because of wokeism and that gender equality debate? It’s the flavour of the month and generates interest/captures attention. It’s really sad that it is affecting kids as well.

One theory I've heard is that a lot of these types of wedge issues are being AstroTurfed and then exacerbated by Russian internet manipulation out of St Petersburg, but who knows

Oranges038 · Apr 23, 2024

I've seen at my own club u12/u13 girls beating the boys in training games. So this isn't a surprise, physically there's not a lot of difference in terms of strength and speed of movement at that age. From 14/15 onwards boys just seem to have a much bigger physical advantage and that makes a huge difference.

Rood said:
Makes sense on the social aspect and team bonding, like you say some might still benefit from playing mixed though.

I manage a grassroots team nowadays and even around Manchester where there are many girls teams, some are choosing to stick to mixed football.
Although I say 'mixed' but usually this ends up being a team of boys with 1 or 2 girls.

A new development for me recently was seeing a team that was mostly girls with a couple of boys. It's a dilemma for many grassroots teams nowadays whether to keep younger age groups mixed or seperate.

I was coaching mixed u10s the last few years, we've decided to change it up and split them, so now instead of having 25 boys and 4 or 5 girls, we have 25 boys and 20+ girls.

A lot of girls just do not want to play when it's mixed, mostly because the boys just don't pass the ball. This was the case with us, I coach the same age group at GAA for the girls and there's around 60 of them playing every week. It's partly why we decided to have separate groups, it actually increases the girls participation in team sports at that age.

MiceOnMeth · Apr 23, 2024

Zehner said:
Is that correct? As far as I know, men have biological advantages when it comes to estimating distances and the calculating speed/trajectory etc. so I guess that helps when it comes to first touch, passing, spatial awareness, timing etc. On the other hand, women have better peripheral view which should help with vision, multitasking and spatial awareness as well.

On a sidenote, is there a sport in which men and women can compete completely equally, as in the top athletes of both sexes could as well just play against each other? I once heard that Tennis should be pretty balanced?

Tennis is absolutely not balanced :lol:

an unranked man beat the women's world number 1 soundly in an exhibition years ago

jojojo · Apr 23, 2024

That_Bloke said:
I honestly do not understand this new and raging need to pit women against men in sports.

As long as physical attributes are heavily involved, women will always draw the short straw. That's how human biology decided it would be, and there's little that can be done about it. It has nothing to do with women's skills or inherent abilities.

I personally find women volley-ball, football and especially tennis, to name the sports I follow, highly competitive and as enjoyable as the men's counter-part, sometimes even more. It never came to mind to disminish their achievements or take the men's performances to take a dump on how women perform. Nor the necessity of having them competiting against each other to prove a point I just don't see.

In general I'd agree with you, but I think that's not really what this thread is about. At youth level, particularly at U12s mixed teams and mixed leagues are an option from a purely physical perspective.

Whether they're a good option to encourage young girls to play and enjoy football, so they'll continue to take part as they become adults is a different question and a more subtle one. Junior football is supposed to be fun and the right level of competition can make it more fun, but so can feeling comfortable as part of the group, off the field as well as on it.

This particular girls team basically ran out of girls teams to beat so decided to switch to a boys league, with more teams and more competition. That's broadly the reason why pro club women's and girls' teams sometimes play against boys - it's to find the right level of competition to make it a fair contest. As more girls play, that should become less necessary.

As @Stack suggested there's a difference between what pro/elite teams want for development purposes and what works best for grassroots football and participation.

Gavinb33 · Apr 23, 2024

Stack said:
Just on the better development if training in a mixed team thing, thats not really good advice unless you are in a place with low numbers. Development is multi faceted and we know with real certainty that girls do better and improve faster when playing and training with other girls. The quality of coaching available has a major impact but also the environment matters a lot too.

It's a top 3 WSL team she is at so I'm sure they told my friend the right advice, she still trains all girls when she is at the academy

jojojo · Apr 23, 2024

Oranges038 said:
I was coaching mixed u10s the last few years, we've decided to change it up and split them, so now instead of having 25 boys and 4 or 5 girls, we have 25 boys and 20+ girls.

A lot of girls just do not want to play when it's mixed, mostly because the boys just don't pass the ball. This was the case with us, I coach the same age group at GAA for the girls and there's around 60 of them playing every week. It's partly why we decided to have separate groups, it actually increases the girls participation in team sports at that age.

That's really good to know. I know there will be questions around the recent growth in girls participating as TV coverage changed and whether it's sustainable. The comparison with GAA makes it even more interesting.

Jund · Apr 23, 2024

TBF, looking at the photos online, I don't see the massive athletic advantage the QPR ladies have over the rest of the teams in the competition. They all look about the same height, weight, etc.

Oranges038 · Apr 23, 2024

jojojo said:
That's really good to know. I know there will be questions around the recent growth in girls participating as TV coverage changed and whether it's sustainable. The comparison with GAA makes it even more interesting.

Yeah, I pushed it, because I knew the girls from GAA and was asking them to play soccer and that was the response I was getting. If GAA was mixed at that age you'd only have 4 or 5 playing it too.

They just seem more comfortable and confident in that environment with their own friends etc, which from my experience with the gaelic is better for them to develop their skills.

Dan_F · Apr 23, 2024

Women’s football will keep improving but never to the level of beating men, nor should there be any need for that to be the barometer. Tennis is the shining example for what women’s football could become but it’ll take a long time of growth. Women’s tennis has had a very close level of exposure to men’s tennis for such a long time now and that really impacts. From a young age they have the same facilities, same coaches, same or similar prize money (or at least prize money that equates to life changing going back longer).

Women’s football is going to look massively different in 20 years as the access and participation improves at a young age, then move a further 20 years on etc. It won’t happen overnight.

Rood · Apr 23, 2024

Stack said:
Its one of those things where for the majority of the time playing girls in only girls teams will generally work best but it doesnt mean its right all of the time. Its a bit like where its generally better for kids to play within their own age group but every now and then there are situations where its better to play a player up an age group. The main difficulty is making sure the people making the decisions to go outside the preferred situation are well versed in all the issues and the decisions are made for the right reasons and in appropriate circumstances. One issue is that roughly 90% of kids football is essentially social and for enjoyment, so making sure the right balance relative for that is important. Making sure that whats required for the 10% who might go on to play higher level amateur or become pro players is not impacting on the 90% and vice versa.
Grassroots football is so important not just in football terms, those involved are superstars in my opinion. I think the most important coaches in any country are the coaches of the 5 to 12 year olds (roughly), they set the tone for the sport, build the basics and can mean people stay in the game for life. At any club they are more important than the coach of the top senior teams.

Oranges038 said:
I've seen at my own club u12/u13 girls beating the boys in training games. So this isn't a surprise, physically there's not a lot of difference in terms of strength and speed of movement at that age. From 14/15 onwards boys just seem to have a much bigger physical advantage and that makes a huge difference.

I was coaching mixed u10s the last few years, we've decided to change it up and split them, so now instead of having 25 boys and 4 or 5 girls, we have 25 boys and 20+ girls.

A lot of girls just do not want to play when it's mixed, mostly because the boys just don't pass the ball. This was the case with us, I coach the same age group at GAA for the girls and there's around 60 of them playing every week. It's partly why we decided to have separate groups, it actually increases the girls participation in team sports at that age.

All makes sense and I think to encourage general participation in football then seperate teams/training is the best way, still a question mark over the best way to develop the top % who have a chance to make it though.

As someone above mentioned, there is now a trend for the best girls to try and do both - I know a few who play for a girls team but still join mixed training sessions or even play for 2 grassroots teams to challenge them.

Oranges038 · Apr 23, 2024

Rood said:
All makes sense and I think to encourage general participation in football then seperate teams/training is the best way, still a question mark over the best way to develop the top % who have a chance to make it though.

As someone above mentioned, there is now a trend for the best girls to try and do both - I know a few who play for a girls team but still join mixed training sessions or even play for 2 grassroots teams to challenge them.

I have no problem with them playing both if they are good enough and want to. For the last 2 or 3 years the girls we've had playing with the boys are a good bit ahead of those that haven't been playing because they don't want to be involved if it's mixed.

The way I saw it here now was that in GAA the girls were so used to having their own teams, games etc. They are more involved and to be honest easier to coach than boys who think they know it all at 7 or 8.

So when it came to soccer for me I saw the best way to encourage them to join was to let them have their own training and game time and the numbers involved almost doubled the first evening, hopefully we'll get more, 30 from 8-10s would be about half of that age group from GAA, which in my town would be unbelievable, considering that 90% of the time it's the parents that stop the kids from going to soccer over gaelic.

justsomebloke · Apr 24, 2024

jojojo said:
At that junior level (U12, local league, amateur club) it's not that surprising. They are playing their peer group really in terms of training setup and physical ability. A lot of the current generation of women players played for boys' teams until they were in their early/mid teens.

Most of the top girls youth teams will play against boys until they physically can't compete. Often that's because there will be more boys teams available locally who are good enough to give them a good game that forces them to think and work faster/harder than they would against another girls team.

By the time they hit puberty they'll hit a point where they physically can't compete and in most clubs/FAs they'll be banned from trying. Senior clubs and pro-clubs often play against their mens academy U16s etc to do the same kind of sharpening up reaction times stuff.

Yep. To give a really clear example, the Norwegian women's national team - with a Ballon d'or winner on it - has been doing pre-tournament training matches against a team of male high-schoolers drawn from a special sports high school in Oslo (Toppidrettsgymnaset). Last time, they lost 0-4. The physicality is the real divide, technically and tactically there's no reason why it couldn't be the same.

The Boy · Apr 24, 2024

That_Bloke said:
I personally find women volley-ball, football and especially tennis, to name the sports I follow, highly competitive and as enjoyable as the men's counter-part, sometimes even more.

Don't we all!

Pogue Mahone · Apr 24, 2024

Pexbo said:
u-12 girls will have a similar physical advantage over u-12 boys as u-15 boys have over u-15 girls.

Yeah, this, basically. Almost as though going through male puberty gives some sort of athletic advantage. Who’d have thought it?

The stuff about the boys being lower division is important too. At that age a bunch of kids in teams in weaker divisions are absolutely hopeless and only play football because their parents are desperate to get them out of the house at the weekend. Whereas these girls are the best of the best at their age, so extremely motivated and athletically gifted.

Rood · Apr 24, 2024

Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, this, basically. Almost as though going through male puberty gives some sort of athletic advantage. Who’d have thought it?

The stuff about the boys being lower division is important too. At that age a bunch of kids in teams in weaker divisions are absolutely hopeless and only play football because their parents are desperate to get them out of the house at the weekend. Whereas these girls are the best of the best at their age, so extremely motivated and athletically gifted.

Will be an interesting case study to see how they get on next season in the higher division

Pogue Mahone · Apr 24, 2024

Rood said:
Will be an interesting case study to see how they get on next season in the higher division

I suspect they’ll bounce straight back down. U13s is when boys football starts to become more like the real thing. Full size goals and pitches and a lot of the players suddenly get more strong and athletic. Combine that with a pool of better players and they’ll find it very hard.

That_Bloke · Apr 24, 2024

The Boy said:
Don't we all!

Ha. However, the reasons I follow women volleyball truly have little to do with it.

Back then when the world made sense, my younger sister and I entered our local volleyball club at the same time. Always loved the sport and thought I'd give it a try. So did my sister. After a couple of months, she could smash the living shit out of me whenever we trained together. It just didn't compute for me but I had to swallow it. She eventually made it to the first team, primarily as an outside hitter and could also do a job as a setter. Meanwhile I realized that being supremely gifted in football didn't make me a volleyball god, despite being left-handed and having quite a good leap.

So I decided to prematurely retire from volleyball, go back to the football plebs and act as a cheerleader for my sister's team whenever they played.

Ole'sgunnarwin · Apr 24, 2024

My son wasn't good enough for the boy's team but he always said he wanted to make it. He's now gone through transition and is now killing in the girl's division. So proud of her.

KeanoMagicHat · Apr 24, 2024

The world’s best women could beat 99% of men at most sports. But they have no chance against the top 1%. Athletics is a good example of this with their records. Try running 100m under 11 seconds, or a mile in 4 minutes 10 seconds or jumping higher than 2 metres if you’re an average guy. But then try to qualify for the Olympics with those times, you’d be nowhere near.

jeepers · Apr 26, 2024

Drainy said:
One theory I've heard is that a lot of these types of wedge issues are being AstroTurfed and then exacerbated by Russian internet manipulation out of St Petersburg, but who knows

Interesting! I shall look into it. Thanks!

'Invincible' all-girl football team goes whole season unbeaten - in boys' league

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