4-Way v2: Marty1968 vs Pat_Mustard

Who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Fenômeno

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
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Jan 8, 2014
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Dragon of Dojima
TEAM MARTY1968

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TEAM PAT_MUSTARD

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Marty Tactics

In goal, just the greatest ever! Lev Yashin

My back line has strength, pace, composure and leadership throughout. Bonucci will control the back line with Thiago Silva alongside him – probably 2 of the best centre backs of the past 20 years. Ironic that Gentile’s surname is what it is as he was anything but! A hard hitting pain in the arse for any forward and he’ll be focussing on Diego for this whole game.

Will be interesting to see how Pat lines up here with a glut of defensive players and defensive midfielders. Imagine everything will play through Diego and Matthaus and rightly so. But with the perfect antidote for Diego in my back line (a certain Gentile who famously marked him out the game in the 82 world cup - albeit he fouled him 20+ times) this will go a long way neutralising his incredible impact.

Bozsik will do what very few others players in history have done as well as him – possibly the best deep lying playmaker to play in front of the back line. He’ll act as the main linchpin for my side. Tough tackling, but also great composure on the ball, attacking ability and superb vision.

Xavi and Iniesta are possibly the greatest midfield duo and with Alba pushing forward on the left, this allows Iniesta to drift in-field which he did so well throughout his career.

Eusebio and Rivaldo up front, with the trickery/pace of Matthews on the right will cause all sorts of troubles for Pat's defense.

And then to the wizard – Sir Stanley Matthews. Beckenbauer said the speed and skill Matthews possessed meant that "almost no one in the game could stop him". John Charles says he was the best crosser of a ball he’d ever seen.

Will Pat's team score? Undoubtedly. With Diego, Matthaus, Shevchenko on the pitch they're bound to. But with Yashin in goal - possibly the greatest keeper ever he's not letting many in.

Pat Tactics

Formation: 4-4-2 diamond with a moderate defensive line.

Basically built around the god that is El Diego. With 2 tireless and prolific strikers ahead of him, and a very strong midfield base behind him he'll be in his element here, especially as the opposition seems to lack a top-notch holding player. Even if they do try to limit Diego by deploying Gentile as a man-marker, we have van Hanegem as a superb secondary playmaker, the box to box titan Matthaus, and that Suarez/Shevchenko duo as potential match-winners.
 
What a match up!
 
Good luck @Pat_Mustard.

As I suspected, everything will go through Diego and I think I have the perfect antidote for him in the monster Gentile. Hanegem and Matthaus are very strong in the middle but Bozsik/Xavi and if need be Iniesta will be able to step in and assist here, especially with no real width to Pat’s team, which would allow Alba to attack at the right opportunities. Putting Neymar in would’ve been a potential problem for me with the attacking width he provides but Sergi will spend most of the time tracking Matthews the Magician!

Two tireless strikers for Pat’s team for sure but Thiago Silva and Bonucci are both clever enough and capable enough to make this a tight contest.

Up front I think Eusebio and Rivaldo has the edge over Kohler and Shesternyov.
 
Marty1968 said:
As I suspected, everything will go through Diego and I think I have the perfect antidote for him in the monster Gentile. Hanegem and Matthaus are very strong in the middle but Bozsik/Xavi and if need be Iniesta will be able to step in and assist here, especially with no real width to Pat’s team, which would allow Alba to attack at the right opportunities. Putting Neymar in would’ve been a potential problem for me with the attacking width he provides but Sergi will spend most of the time tracking Matthews the Magician!
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The funny thing here is if we agree on which era this game is being played in, it will end up hampering your tactics one way or the other.

The famous man markings Gentile did on the likes of Diego and Zico came in an era where referees allowed defenders to get away with murder, so much so that Gentile tore Zico's shirt in bits. While the dominance of Xavi and Iniesta's passing and possession game came in the era and particularly in the La Liga where lightly brushing someone's hair would end up giving you a foul and defenders would be extremely wary of getting physical in order to break their passing rhythm.

It's up to everyone to agree on how to incorporate those situations into a game on paper but it is extremely difficult to imagine a set of conditions that would allow the likes of Xavi and Iniesta and also the likes of Gentile to play their natural games!
 
Moby said:
The funny thing here is if we agree on which era this game is being played in, it will end up hampering your tactics one way or the other.

The famous man markings Gentile did on the likes of Diego and Zico came in an era where referees allowed defenders to get away with murder, so much so that Gentile tore Zico's shirt in bits. While the dominance of Xavi and Iniesta's passing and possession game came in the era and particularly in the La Liga where lightly brushing someone's hair would end up giving you a foul and defenders would be extremely wary of getting physical in order to break their passing rhythm.

It's up to everyone to agree on how to incorporate those situations into a game on paper but it is extremely difficult to imagine a set of conditions that would allow the likes of Xavi and Iniesta and also the likes of Gentile to play their natural games!
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So is that actually a tactical difference then or just how good referees were? Putting the leniency of refs aside, surely there's a possibility that a tough bad ass of a defender could play in the same team as a passing possession based midfield?
 
Moby said:
It's up to everyone to agree on how to incorporate those situations into a game on paper but it is extremely difficult to imagine a set of conditions that would allow the likes of Xavi and Iniesta and also the likes of Gentile to play their natural games!
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This discussion has been made in previous matches too. I personally would not assume Gentil is just a thug and would be a misfit in modern times. He's been known to prepare beforehand and his habit of watching his opponents for weakness. Had Gentile been playing in modern times, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to adapt his game and would still be a formidable defender without needing to resort to thuggery.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Is Gentile playing tucked in RB or does he have a free role to man-mark Maradona? If he's marking Maradona, who's handling Suarez? Are you playing possession football?
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Wouldn't necessarily see him following Diego all over the pitch no. Bozsik will also be there to assist so don't see Suarez being 'unmarked'. While I've shown Bonucci mainly as a sweeper he's also a very good man marker so he's just as capable of marking Suarez for periods of the game.
 
Marty1968 said:
Wouldn't necessarily see him following Diego all over the pitch no. Bozsik will also be there to assist so don't see Suarez being 'unmarked'. While I've shown Bonucci mainly as a sweeper he's also a very good man marker so he's just as capable of marking Suarez for periods of the game.
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If he's staying predominantly in his zone I don't see how he's really an antidote to Diego?

I do agree that you can't really afford to play him as a proper man-marker without messing up your team shape though. Matthews wasn't really the sort of ultra-industrious type like Becks or Conti who could viably cover the flank in the defensive phase, and neither is Alba the type of FB who would naturally tck in to create a back three if Gentile was upfield tailing Maradona. Not sure that Bozsik is the right man to screen the defence either. From what I've seen and read he seemed more of a Xavi type of player than a Busquets.

IMO that's a potentially match-deciding conundrum for you - properly man-mark Maradona with Gentile but risk messing up your team shape completely, or else risk Maradona completely running the show.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
If he's staying predominantly in his zone I don't see how he's really an antidote to Diego?

I do agree that you can't really afford to play him as a proper man-marker without messing up your team shape though. Matthews wasn't really the sort of ultra-industrious type like Becks or Conti who could viably cover the flank in the defensive phase, and neither is Alba the type of FB who would naturally tck in to create a back three if Gentile was upfield tailing Maradona. Not sure that Bozsik is the right man to screen the defence either. From what I've seen and read he seemed more of a Xavi type of player than a Busquets.

IMO that's a potentially match-deciding conundrum for you - properly man-mark Maradona with Gentile but risk messing up your team shape completely, or else risk Maradona completely running the show.
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Yes a more defensive right mid would work well but I can see This lineup working very well. Your lack of attacking wingers means that i'd be able to make things very compact in the middle limiting Maradona's space. Yes getting the ball off him will be tough but he doesn't have a natural wide outlet to open up the pitch and move defenders out of position. My lineup provides exactly that. Matthews hugging the right, iniesta on the left with Alba overlapping and even Rivaldo drifting out wide if he needs to. Eusebio can drop deep or make the runs for Bozsik, Xavi, Iniesta and Rivaldo to pick out. Which of you centre backs are marking Eusebio? Shesternyov was more a sweeper than a man-marker no?
 
Marty1968 said:
Yes a more defensive right mid would work well but I can see This lineup working very well. Your lack of attacking wingers means that i'd be able to make things very compact in the middle limiting Maradona's space. Yes getting the ball off him will be tough but he doesn't have a natural wide outlet to open up the pitch and move defenders out of position. My lineup provides exactly that. Matthews hugging the right, iniesta on the left with Alba overlapping and even Rivaldo drifting out wide if he needs to. Eusebio can drop deep or make the runs for Bozsik, Xavi, Iniesta and Rivaldo to pick out. Which of you centre backs are marking Eusebio? Shesternyov was more a sweeper than a man-marker no?
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Yep, Shesternyov apparently said he preferred playing as the sweeper rather than the stopper, if I'm interpreting this garbled Google Translate from one of the PES forums properly:

In 1970 was one of the Top-10 players of Europe (France Football weekly poll).
Best (1970) and third (1966, 1968, 1969) Player of the USSR (the weekly newspaper "Football").
In All Stars Team Championship of the USSR 10 consecutive years: 1963 - 1972.

Champion of USSR: 1970.
Bronze-prize winner of the USSR: 1964, 1965.

In 17 years he ran over 11 seconds to 100 metres, was champion not just area, but also of Moscow and Moscow region, showing excellent results in the 200 metres long and triple jump. He was offered a seriously Athletics All-around. But the heart boy with Losinki have long time won the football.

In those years, the domestic football painfully experienced tactical shift priorities. Instead of the old schema twin-ve has implemented the "Brazilian" 4 + 2 + 4. Departure from the old gaming habits occurred most players and teams painful new thinking on the box, unconventional, broader role players were struggling. Shesternev found himself in a new environment without any problems. Perhaps partly because he was lucky. Fate has chosen its entry in the great football on time. He turned out to be a beginner, before one's eyes not appearing stereotypes, role models, he did not have to be rebuilt. Beskov had indicated him position on the field, has taught the new position of tactical wisdom and these grains fell on fertile ground. Albert Shesternev, sprinter, athlete – and was even born. He quickly learned to read the game feel intuitively anticipate developments, although it is true to yourself – how it is possible, always replied: "So I did the last defender, my position is best visible field."

The extent to which fits organically young player in new tactical schema, shows and his first challenge in NT in only four months after the debut in CSKA.... With a mind that was usual stopper, drew attention to the his phisique. But first, the training he surfaced frantic speed, excellent jumping, cold calculation, along with hot desire not to give in struggles that in most cases. He sought to cover the entire width of the field and, to a complete surprise, has always been in the right place. And took no speed, and choose position: make two or three steps, and the ball already him immediately pass to the partner. Even he himself couldn't explain how he succeeded.

European Championship qualifying match against Italy on 13 October 1963 brought a young defender first European fame. Within an hour and a half Shesternev did not play such a footballer as Rivera-magnificent technician, fast and clever. He is completely turned off his game. The USSR won 2-0.

Skate the Shesternev was incredible, especially when his size, speed, which makes him sometimes even give distance handicap contender. But this is just so it seemed he climbed to the top speed is very slow, the expecting that a competitor has thus been ahead of him at seven to eight metres. And now Aleksandr long, powerful step begins his track, barely reaches the line of the penalty area as Shesternev using shell selects his ball, damages, literally and expands to center field with the ball in the legs. The impression that even while on the road and yak away, he would be up front running forward.
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We're defending zonally here, but just like a Rio/Vidic partnership Shesternyov and Kohler will play to their preferences and sweep/attack the first ball respectively when possible. Shesternyov's excellent athletic attributes will be a real asset against a player as explosive as Eusebio.

As regards the width in the team, Bessonov and Sergi were selected with the diamond formation in mind. While Bessonov was an athletically gifted all-rounder, Sergi's strength is clearly motoring up and down that flank supporting the attack. I'll not deny that I was tempted to play Marzolini instead as he's the much more credible proposition in terms of dealing with Matthews in 1v1s, but it would have compromised my shape too much. Both of the side midfielders will add supplementary width too, with van Hanegem being a specialist in terms of patrolling the left channels and Matthaus being somewhat underrated in that regard:



There's some nice bursts down both flanks in this video, with that jet-heeled surge vs England at 1:40 being a highlight.

Not to mention Maradona's ability to pick up the ball just about anywhere and hurt teams:



and the forwards' ability to peel wide, with Suarez having wracked up many appearances playing on the wings down the years and Shevchenko being capable of this:

 
Matthaus will have to play a bit different role here and after initial awe with partnership there is certain overlap with him and Diego in sense of bringing best of Lothar as he thrived surging from behind with team dragging defenders wide to open the space in the middle (Germany 90' for example). Diego won't do that, he will occupy central positions. The rest of it is fine.

Marty while having a tons of players who are my personal favorites has a bit problems with overall balance, especially going with that tactics having Matthews covering the whole flank or Alba not being so defensively great. In short, possession based tactics in a more counter attacking set-up.

Can see both Eusebio and Maradona thriving. Pat looks more solid in defensive phase though. Will vote after more discussion or a paypal payment.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
This discussion has been made in previous matches too. I personally would not assume Gentil is just a thug and would be a misfit in modern times. He's been known to prepare beforehand and his habit of watching his opponents for weakness. Had Gentile been playing in modern times, I'm sure he's intelligent enough to adapt his game and would still be a formidable defender without needing to resort to thuggery.
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He's obviously a good defender but his downright thuggery was a huge part of him 'shutting down' these players, without that I expect him to perform similar to most other good defenders, who can keep tabs on Diego for a lot of the game but eventually he will come out short in terms of being able to stop him from winning the game for his team. It won't be the whole 'kryptonite' thing.

Anyway his marking of Zico was more legendary for me, as Diego had not reached his peak when they faced. Even with all that thuggery he would fall short vs. prime Diego. I mean, like pretty much every other defender out there.
 
I wanted to explain my vote, but it turned into a huge rant about Marty's tower of Babel :lol:

- Gentile is focusing on Maradona for the whole game... but he's not freed from his right back duties? It doesn't work like that. Or, if it does, it means that you have a tons of free space behind Matthews — and you don't even have anyone decent to cover, neither Xavi not Bozsik would be able to pretty much switch to right back role for the whole 90 minutes.

- Even leaving the first point aside, it's not a given that Gentile is going to mark Diego out of the game. In 1982 it was an insanely talented, but ultimately immature player, and the best thing that Gentile did that day was switching Maradona's focus from winning the game to winning their individual battle. Maradona-1986 is better and way smarter.

- It's a criminal misuse of Bozsik, who was a transitional player and I don't think that he'll be able to successfully perform in the role he is given here. Especially since the quality of the midfield that's facing him is just as good, if not better (considering Diego) than the one he's playing in.

- I'm not one of those who think that Xavi and Iniesta are necessary dependent on the system — but if they're playing in a different set up than the one they were playing at Barca, their roles need to be adjusted accordingly. In Pep's system their defensive strategy was mainly built around counter-pressing — considering the front three that they have in front of them, I don't think it's an option. You can put them in a direct counter-attacking system, but then you need a defensive midfielder next to Xavi and Iniesta to be put on the wing.
 
Moby said:
Even with all that thuggery he would fall short vs. prime Diego. I mean, like pretty much every other defender out there.
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It's not like Maradona ripped every other defender every game all season long. If we put Gentile to mark Diego under modern rules, I'd say Diego will score in 5 of 10 matches. Probably a 50-55% chance of scoring in a match. Do understand your point...and this probably is a good reason why certain "superman" players should be perma-banned from drafts.

Tactically, in this match specifically...I don't believe Marty has set up well to counter Diego and Suarez.
 
Jim Beam said:
Matthaus will have to play a bit different role here and after initial awe with partnership there is certain overlap with him and Diego in sense of bringing best of Lothar as he thrived surging from behind with team dragging defenders wide to open the space in the middle (Germany 90' for example). Diego won't do that, he will occupy central positions. The rest of it is fine.

Marty while having a tons of players who are my personal favorites has a bit problems with overall balance, especially going with that tactics having Matthews covering the whole flank or Alba not being so defensively great. In short, possession based tactics in a more counter attacking set-up.

Can see both Eusebio and Maradona thriving. Pat looks more solid in defensive phase though. Will vote after more discussion or a paypal payment.
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I largely agree on the Matthaus point - was conscious when I picked him that I wouldn't be able to maximise all his qualities with Diego already there as the main ball-carrier and all around Top Banana. That said, he'll have a fair amount of freedom to burst forward as a passing option for Diego with Stielike anchoring and van Hanegem in support too, and over the course of a whole match I'd expect him to find his spots to try those surging runs on the ball too. And even leaving aside all the sexy final third moments, he's still such an incredible all-rounder that I couldn't pass up on him even in a slightly reduced capacity
 
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