Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>
I do so hope for all you Juan haters that next season Chelsea do beat us at Stamford bridge quite convincingly and maybe a Veron special on a free kick too? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> God, you guys are pathetic!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Spoken like a true United fan.
Allow us to celebrate the transfer of Veron to Chelski (feck off mods - don't delete)
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ryansgirl
Full Member
Seba is likely (although I wouldn`t place a bet on it) to be a success at Chelsea if the team is adjusted to his style of play. Good luck to him, but I cannot understand how any MU fan could wish that Seba repays the somewhat over the top criticism of some MU fans by leading Chelsea to victory.
MU`s adjustment to Seba`s style was never going to happen consistently here at MU, given the players we already had, and when Sir Alex did adjust the team to accommodate Seba it was noticeable that the team was unsettled. It was also noticeable that MU did not win the Premiership by doing that.
I think the players` comments about wanting Seba to stay were significant - but they were not really shocked or full blooded expressions of `What the hell is the club doing?` Seba is so obviously a skilled player under the right circumstances that of course his fellow MU players would be reluctant to see him go.
However, the fact remains - for somebody with a reputation as world class and a price tag of 28 million pounds, Seba did not perform up to the expected standards over 2 seasons. There was no guarantee he would start performing up to the high level set by those this club really needs - players such as Keano and Ruud to name 2. It was better to let him go.
Pre season games count for very little. Seba was great in exhibition games in the USA - but how much pressure is there in an exhibition game? There is a hell of a lot of pressure in the Premiership and I recall times Seba wouldn`t go near the ball, ducking opportunities to get it and going in gingerly for a tackle. MU did the right thing.
MU`s adjustment to Seba`s style was never going to happen consistently here at MU, given the players we already had, and when Sir Alex did adjust the team to accommodate Seba it was noticeable that the team was unsettled. It was also noticeable that MU did not win the Premiership by doing that.
I think the players` comments about wanting Seba to stay were significant - but they were not really shocked or full blooded expressions of `What the hell is the club doing?` Seba is so obviously a skilled player under the right circumstances that of course his fellow MU players would be reluctant to see him go.
However, the fact remains - for somebody with a reputation as world class and a price tag of 28 million pounds, Seba did not perform up to the expected standards over 2 seasons. There was no guarantee he would start performing up to the high level set by those this club really needs - players such as Keano and Ruud to name 2. It was better to let him go.
Pre season games count for very little. Seba was great in exhibition games in the USA - but how much pressure is there in an exhibition game? There is a hell of a lot of pressure in the Premiership and I recall times Seba wouldn`t go near the ball, ducking opportunities to get it and going in gingerly for a tackle. MU did the right thing.
PaulScholes03
Full Member
Those who think and say Veron never tried his best for Man Utd are pathetic.
ryansgirl
Full Member
Well, done, I love to see a post where an assertion is made with no back-up reference to facts or anything to refute the opinions you disagree with. I don`t think it is unfair to say that Seba did not seem to be a 100 percent for MU player.
If you read the reasonable posts on Seba`s contribution, you`ll find that posters such as myself cite instances of Seba not going in for tackles. It happened, and it is on footage of the relevent matches. Seba also had a minority of very good games as opposed to a majority of mediocre ones.
Although certain circumstances can affect how players perform on the pitch, for Seba to have under-performed for two years except in a few Champions League games, a handful of Premiership games and a few exhibition games tells us that his heart and mind were most likely not giving MU the full blooded commitment needed.
Most posters who have rightly critiqued Seba`s mostly forgettable performances over 2 years don`t consider that any more excuses should be made for him. Irrelevant of how much he was unsettled at first, for him not to be producing the level of performance expected of a Manchester United player ultimately says much about his character and or abilities.
If you read the reasonable posts on Seba`s contribution, you`ll find that posters such as myself cite instances of Seba not going in for tackles. It happened, and it is on footage of the relevent matches. Seba also had a minority of very good games as opposed to a majority of mediocre ones.
Although certain circumstances can affect how players perform on the pitch, for Seba to have under-performed for two years except in a few Champions League games, a handful of Premiership games and a few exhibition games tells us that his heart and mind were most likely not giving MU the full blooded commitment needed.
Most posters who have rightly critiqued Seba`s mostly forgettable performances over 2 years don`t consider that any more excuses should be made for him. Irrelevant of how much he was unsettled at first, for him not to be producing the level of performance expected of a Manchester United player ultimately says much about his character and or abilities.
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Originally posted by PaulScholes03:
<strong>Those who think and say Veron never tried his best for Man Utd are pathetic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope you aren't aiming that remark at GG because she's right.
It wasn't until more recently in his United career that Seba started putting in tackles and tracking back.
Maybe that was his best at the time, and it wasn't what he was bought for. You don't buy a racehorse and expect it to pull a cart after all.
Maybe we underestimated the needs of the PL, and there's actually no place for luxury players.
Seba probably will do well at Chelsea because he's learned more about English football. Time will tell if it was a mistake to sell him to another English club.
Julian Denny
Full Member
Originally posted by Livvie20:
[QB
It wasn't until more recently in his United career that Seba started putting in tackles and tracking back.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
That of course is absolute nonsense and supports my theory that he wasn't utilised properly. Nobody ever said that Bobby Charlton wasn't a good midfielder because he couldn't tackle or track back. Nobody says the same about Paul Scholes because he can't tackle(80% of the time at least) or track back. These are great creative players whose job it is to open up defences and generally make things happen when going forward. We've got people like Keane, Butt, Phil Neville, Djemba and probably Kleberson (if he comes) who tackle, track back etc. Having failed miserably to get Ronaldinho ( who also doesn't tackle or track back by the way), with Becks gone and Keane restricited to a more holding role, it was a mistake to let Seba go particularly as I think he would have flourished this season and really bossed the midfield.
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Do you mean absolute nonsense to suggest that he didn't, or absolute nonsense to suggest that it mattered.
It would most definitely be nonsense to say that in his early United career he did. Only last season did he start to show those attributes.
Whether it's essential for a player such as Veron is a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't think the EPL is a place for a luxury player, and it's because he started to work hard all over the pitch that his form and his contribution improved.
Imo.
It would most definitely be nonsense to say that in his early United career he did. Only last season did he start to show those attributes.
Whether it's essential for a player such as Veron is a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't think the EPL is a place for a luxury player, and it's because he started to work hard all over the pitch that his form and his contribution improved.
Imo.
Plechazunga
Grammar partisan who sleeps with a real life Ryan
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>
Nobody says the same about Paul Scholes because he can't tackle(80% of the time at least) or track back. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Scholesy's always got stuck in - though it's true that he mistimes quite a lot of tackles, he's always tracked back and done his fair share defensively.
Julian Denny
Full Member
I am suggesting it's nonsense to denigrate Veron solely because he didn't tackle or track back. That was not his function or at least it shouldn't have been. The same with PS - I cringe every time he goes in for the ball. It's not his job to be a ball winner. He like Veron are there to set up opportunities and in PS's case to take a few as well which he does. Our major objective is to rule Europe again. To get rid of a world class player whose performances in the ECL were very good on the whole, does not make sense at all. What's more I think Fergie agrees but the current incumbent money men at United couldn't resist the Chelsea offer. They may yet rue that decision.
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>I am suggesting it's nonsense to denigrate Veron solely because he didn't tackle or track back. That was not his function or at least it shouldn't have been. The same with PS - I cringe every time he goes in for the ball. It's not his job to be a ball winner. He like Veron are there to set up opportunities and in PS's case to take a few as well which he does. Our major objective is to rule Europe again. To get rid of a world class player whose performances in the ECL were very good on the whole, does not make sense at all. What's more I think Fergie agrees but the current incumbent money men at United couldn't resist the Chelsea offer. They may yet rue that decision.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Scholes is different from Veron in the sense that at least he tries to tackle, whether success or not is another story. I think no one would disagree that Veron's performance in ECL is good, but do we have such a luxury to keep the second highest paid player in the squad who can only do well in Europe? Premier league is still our bread and butter, and anyone who can't do well in the bread and butter must go.
Dans
Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
His main "function" was to provide creativity. A midfielder's functions are numerous however, and in a team such as ours hard work was one of the requirements and has been since Ferguson has been successful with United. It's hard work that has got us as far as we have come in the last decade. Veron certainly didn't offer what the others do in the way of hard work, including tracking back and tackling - getting stuck in we call it. This is one reason why I am very happy that Ronaldinho didn't come - he would have been no different. He may however have outshone Veron where creativity is concerned as although he provided it he did so inconsistently. That fact coupled with his apparent lack of will to get stuck in effectively reduces him, in my opinion at least, to surplus to requirements. 15m is good business all things considered.
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>I am suggesting it's nonsense to denigrate Veron solely because he didn't tackle or track back. That was not his function or at least it shouldn't have been. The same with PS - I cringe every time he goes in for the ball. It's not his job to be a ball winner. He like Veron are there to set up opportunities and in PS's case to take a few as well which he does. Our major objective is to rule Europe again. To get rid of a world class player whose performances in the ECL were very good on the whole, does not make sense at all. What's more I think Fergie agrees but the current incumbent money men at United couldn't resist the Chelsea offer. They may yet rue that decision.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I dont agree with this argument to write off Veron just because he cannot tackle.How many playmakers in Italy and Spain are expected to revert back and defend?If we go by the results of last season the only match we were beaten in Eroupe was when Veron did'nt play.I think Fergie is obsessed with the success of the Italian teams in the CL particularly the way they outclassed both Bayern and Real- so he is opting for a tactical shift to imitate their style of play.If it clicks we might win in Eroupe else it would end up as a poor season.
chris5
Guest
Veron's blood is not red u r right about that bud he is a fan of estudiantes de la plata were he started in argentina.
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Originally posted by vijay_vr:
<strong>
How many playmakers in Italy and Spain are expected to revert back and defend?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can get away with it there. In England, nine times out of ten, you can't.
I'm not knocking Veron's ability. I never have. But I've always said he needed to adapt to English football.
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
You can get away with it there. In England, nine times out of ten, you can't.
I'm not knocking Veron's ability. I never have. But I've always said he needed to adapt to English football.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First season he was a flop but last season he has adapted himself to the English football.If not for his untimely injuried he would've delivered more.If we play 4-4-2 it requires the attacking central mid to be equally good in attacking and defending.We are not playing it any more and we have changed a lot as a team playing one striker,attacking midfielder and a playmaker to match top Italian,Spanish outfits and teams like Bayern Munich.Veron was the one who can run the midfield against these fancy outfits.But there is no point in talking about it right now as Veron is history and its hard to predict what Fergie has in mind.
dicko
Full Member
Originally posted by Vinay:
<strong>
I do so hope for all you Juan haters that next season Chelsea do beat us at Stamford bridge quite convincingly and maybe a Veron special on a free kick too? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> God, you guys are pathetic!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am disappointed he's gone and wish him well. i think he was misunderstood by many fans. Becks is more of a red than Seba ever was or will be but I prefer Seb. I hope he helps Chelsea do well.
However, as a United fan, I will always want United to win.
ryansgirl
Full Member
I think Julian`s opinions are more times than not correct but I have to disagree regarding the comparison using Bobby Charlton. I`ve watched many MU games from the 60s on video, and I don`t think you can with any credibility cite such a hardworking, skilful,100 percent committed team man as the Great Bobby when trying to make a case for the playmaker such as Veron who doesn`t put in enough work during the game.
Bobby certainly was not the hard man of MU but he had such wonderful skills which were accomplished by a superb work rate and a fair share of tackling. Bobby did it all - nobody could ever accuse him of not giving his full attention and full commitment. I bet no old timers could ever say that Bobby dodged tackles, and this was a time when the ball playing players were not protected.
Veron is so different - he just cannot seem to adapt to the fact that you can be a flair player at MU AND give a full blooded, 100 percent commitment to the game, involving yourself as much as possible. In too many games Seba has looked disinterested. I say `looked` because that probably was not going through his mind. But when you are not having a good game you can make up for it by astute observation of what is going on and how you can best contribute.
Sure he was great in a handful of Champions League games but let`s be realistic here - what club can afford such a highly paid player with such a great reputation to only really turn it on for Champions League games? Are there any such top clubs around?
The idea is laughable - even the cossetted Real Madrid with their access to financial and other perks from the Spanish government and other deals that allow them to spend as if there
is no tomorrow, do not have players in their first team that only really perform in the CL games. To keep Veron at MU with the salary he is on and with the difficulties that come with trying to accommodate in with a team that plays so well without him in the Premiership, would be plainly foolish.
It doesn`t make any sense - footballing or busines-wise. I don`t think the money men have had their way. It is clear to me that Sir Alex has again demonstrated just how shrewd he is by not persisting with a player who is not needed by MU. By allowing Veron to go, Sir Alex is admitting he made an error of judgement. How a player performs on the pitch is as much a test of character as footballing ability - and with Veron, the footballing ability has not been really shown after two seasons as he clearly does not have the drive to adapt to MU.
I like Seba but he will be better off at a club like Chelsea which collects players and tries to asemble a team. That is not Manchester United`s way, and I think that all the players Chelsea is buying will backfire. There is going to be a lot of discontent at Stamford Bridge, and the reason why Chelsea has not won the English title over the last decade was largely to do with having a bunch of players who don`t have a team or club ethos. MU and its players clearly have.
Bobby certainly was not the hard man of MU but he had such wonderful skills which were accomplished by a superb work rate and a fair share of tackling. Bobby did it all - nobody could ever accuse him of not giving his full attention and full commitment. I bet no old timers could ever say that Bobby dodged tackles, and this was a time when the ball playing players were not protected.
Veron is so different - he just cannot seem to adapt to the fact that you can be a flair player at MU AND give a full blooded, 100 percent commitment to the game, involving yourself as much as possible. In too many games Seba has looked disinterested. I say `looked` because that probably was not going through his mind. But when you are not having a good game you can make up for it by astute observation of what is going on and how you can best contribute.
Sure he was great in a handful of Champions League games but let`s be realistic here - what club can afford such a highly paid player with such a great reputation to only really turn it on for Champions League games? Are there any such top clubs around?
The idea is laughable - even the cossetted Real Madrid with their access to financial and other perks from the Spanish government and other deals that allow them to spend as if there
is no tomorrow, do not have players in their first team that only really perform in the CL games. To keep Veron at MU with the salary he is on and with the difficulties that come with trying to accommodate in with a team that plays so well without him in the Premiership, would be plainly foolish.
It doesn`t make any sense - footballing or busines-wise. I don`t think the money men have had their way. It is clear to me that Sir Alex has again demonstrated just how shrewd he is by not persisting with a player who is not needed by MU. By allowing Veron to go, Sir Alex is admitting he made an error of judgement. How a player performs on the pitch is as much a test of character as footballing ability - and with Veron, the footballing ability has not been really shown after two seasons as he clearly does not have the drive to adapt to MU.
I like Seba but he will be better off at a club like Chelsea which collects players and tries to asemble a team. That is not Manchester United`s way, and I think that all the players Chelsea is buying will backfire. There is going to be a lot of discontent at Stamford Bridge, and the reason why Chelsea has not won the English title over the last decade was largely to do with having a bunch of players who don`t have a team or club ethos. MU and its players clearly have.
PaulScholes03
Full Member
aimed at GG? No, I hadn'read her post when I posted mine.
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>and I think that all the players Chelsea is buying will backfire. There is going to be a lot of discontent at Stamford Bridge, and the reason why Chelsea has not won the English title over the last decade was largely to do with having a bunch of players who don`t have a team or club ethos. MU and its players clearly have.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But don't you think it is the only way they can have a chance to challenge for the trophy? If they don't buy like that they will never have a chance to challenge us in the near future. Moreover, I think the player they chose to purchase are mostly a clever choice. A lot of the players they got are young British or Irish, and nearly all of them (except Mutu and Veron) already have a proven track record in EPL.