Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

CannonBalls

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I knew this would rattle a cage. Always does when you put the clubs into perspective so thanks again for a post that sums Arsenal fans up perfectly.

‘Only missing a CL’, that’s a big only there when you consider during the last decade where United have been a clusterfeck we’ve won as many major European trophies [yea, we don’t count that nonsense that ran for 13 years] as your club has in its history.

As I said I respect Arsenal football club, what I don’t respect is crap like your first paragraph. The clubs aren’t comparable lad. No one’s saying Arsenal don’t have history, I acknowledge you do. I’m saying you aren’t Manchester United.

You went ‘toe to toe’ for 7 years. Did you miss the part of the post where I said ‘a rival for a very short time’? United were doing bits long before & long after. How long was Wenger at Arsenal again & you’re talking 7 years? That is Arsenal fans for you.

‘Until the 2000s’. Fecks sakes we did more between 2010-2013 than you’ve done in how long?

Again. Very historied club & if you’d like to discuss how Roman + his millions derailed your fantasy then fine but you are our Spurs. Annoying. So I’d rather your club fall in the Thames then have to listen to crap like that first paragraph. The clubs are not the same, that isn’t a slate against Arsenal but a fact.

I’m not sure how your post addresses what was written, it’s another Arsenal fan trying to tell me your Uniteds peers & you’re not.
I understand that CLs are a huge deal.
Then by that logic you (Man Utd) are Liverpools Spurs..... (especially if they win this 20th title)
 

Daydreamer

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I knew this would rattle a cage. Always does when you put the clubs into perspective so thanks again for a post that sums Arsenal fans up perfectly.

‘Only missing a CL’, that’s a big only there when you consider during the last decade where United have been a clusterfeck we’ve won as many major European trophies [yea, we don’t count that nonsense that ran for 13 years] as your club has in its history.

As I said I respect Arsenal football club, what I don’t respect is crap like your first paragraph. The clubs aren’t comparable lad. No one’s saying Arsenal don’t have history, I acknowledge you do. I’m saying you aren’t Manchester United.

You went ‘toe to toe’ for 7 years. Did you miss the part of the post where I said ‘a rival for a very short time’? United were doing bits long before & long after. How long was Wenger at Arsenal again & you’re talking 7 years? That is Arsenal fans for you.

‘Until the 2000s’. Fecks sakes we did more between 2010-2013 than you’ve done in how long?

Again. Very historied club & if you’d like to discuss how Roman + his millions derailed your fantasy then fine but you are our Spurs. Annoying. So I’d rather your club fall in the Thames then have to listen to crap like that first paragraph. The clubs are not the same, that isn’t a slate against Arsenal but a fact.

I’m not sure how your post addresses what was written, it’s another Arsenal fan trying to tell me your Uniteds peers & you’re not.
Someone is clearly very rattled and it’s not @ArtetasHair. You responded to a post that can only be described as respectful towards United with paragraph after paragraph about how United are a big club - a fact literally nobody was questioning.

United are undeniably a footballing institution. But purely in terms of trophies, City have already surpassed United’s haul before the hire of SAF:

United
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 7
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 2

City
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 9
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 8

If City evade their charges and hire well after Pep (two big “ifs”) then most of us on this forum will very much be alive to witness the perspective shift of the average fan. The way Chelsea are spoken about now will likely serve as a pre-cursor. Everyone forgets where the money comes from.

If City’s army of elite lawyers mean they can’t be beaten in the courtroom, it becomes even more important that they’re beaten on the pitch.
 

VP89

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Someone is clearly very rattled and it’s not @ArtetasHair. You responded to a post that can only be described as respectful towards United with paragraph after paragraph about how United are a big club - a fact literally nobody was questioning.

United are undeniably a footballing institution. But purely in terms of trophies, City have already surpassed United’s haul before the hire of SAF:

United
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 7
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 2

City
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 9
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 8

If City evade their charges and hire well after Pep (two big “ifs”) then most of us on this forum will very much be alive to witness the perspective shift of the average fan. The way Chelsea are spoken about now will likely serve as a pre-cursor. Everyone forgets where the money comes from.

If City’s army of elite lawyers mean they can’t be beaten in the courtroom, it becomes even more important that they’re beaten on the pitch.
I'm confused - why are you removing the impact of Sir Alex Ferguson to insinuate the comparative size of City and Untied? Perhaps I'm coming into this debate a bit cold - but Chelsea's relevance has nothing to do with the situation (unless you were drawing the Chelsea vs Arsenal comparison to draw a parallel to United vs City, which would be rather foolish).

To put things into perspective, City can win the next 10 Premier Leagues in a row and still have less than Manchester United. I don't actually think they'll be classed as a bigger club in our lifetimes, however if that's not a point you were questioning, I apologize.
 

Changeisgood

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If you had given me the choice of who I would rather stomach to win the league in 1998...Pool/Spurs/Man Utd....versus a Chelsea or Man City...I would have picked Chelsea and especially Man City overwhelmingly. Now, it is the reverse. I would take any of the other clubs, even Spurs over City and Chelsea. For me some things go beyond rivalries. I don't expect everyone to have that stands on it but it would actually be nice if fans did in my opinion.
 

Daydreamer

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I'm confused - why are you removing the impact of Sir Alex Ferguson to insinuate the comparative size of City and Untied? Perhaps I'm coming into this debate a bit cold - but Chelsea's relevance has nothing to do with the situation (unless you were drawing the Chelsea vs Arsenal comparison to draw a parallel to United vs City, which would be rather foolish).

To put things into perspective, City can win the next 10 Premier Leagues in a row and still have less than Manchester United. I don't actually think they'll be classed as a bigger club in our lifetimes, however if that's not a point you were questioning, I apologize.
That’s very much not the point I was making and I apologise if I didn’t phrase it clearly.

SAF is clearly a genius whose impact is undeniable. My point is, the City takeover was in 2008 and (once again, purely in trophy count) they’ve managed to surpass the United of 1992. Therefore, if they continue to dominate the league, the perception of them will shift. It’s all well and good fans like us saying that “City winning doesn’t count” - I actually share that sentiment. But it will matter eventually and that time is fast approaching.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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Going there and playing for a point, like they think that's enough. Such arrogance.
This is some weird ass criticism, they got plonked 1-4 last year there, what did you expect them to do?

The football was pretty shit on a stick from both sides, but any team in the league would be happy with a point at the Emptyhad.
 

Remember the geese

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This is some weird ass criticism, they got plonked 1-4 last year there, what did you expect them to do?

The football was pretty shit on a stick from both sides, but any team in the league would be happy with a point at the Emptyhad.
This isn't a two horse race. If it was, then sure, rock up there, park the bus and take your point. As it is, it's just them saying 'We don't believe Liverpool will win out from here'.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I understand that CLs are a huge deal.
Then by that logic you (Man Utd) are Liverpools Spurs..... (especially if they win this 20th title)
You could make that argument but I thought this was an Arsenal thread & your byline says you’re an Arsenal fan.

You’ve been drawn into the exact same nonsense you lot always do & what my issue was with the initial post.

Keep your eyes on yourselves but no, because you can’t argue about being anything other than United inferiors you’re now bigging up Liverpool? So do I now counter with ‘well Real Madrid. . .’ or stick to the clubs at hand.

The post was telling United fans they should want Arsenal to win it. Feck the lot of you.

Someone is clearly very rattled and it’s not @ArtetasHair. You responded to a post that can only be described as respectful towards United with paragraph after paragraph about how United are a big club - a fact literally nobody was questioning.

United are undeniably a footballing institution. But purely in terms of trophies, City have already surpassed United’s haul before the hire of SAF:

United
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 7
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 2

City
CL / EC - 1
PL / 1st Div - 9
FA Cup - 7
League Cup - 8

If City evade their charges and hire well after Pep (two big “ifs”) then most of us on this forum will very much be alive to witness the perspective shift of the average fan. The way Chelsea are spoken about now will likely serve as a pre-cursor. Everyone forgets where the money comes from.

If City’s army of elite lawyers mean they can’t be beaten in the courtroom, it becomes even more important that they’re beaten on the pitch.
Is this the Man City thread or the Arsenal one? Cause as you said someone’s rattled, & that person would be the Arsenal fan using City’s trophy haul in a discussion focused on Manchester United & Arsenal.

Did you read my initial post? Because it more than covers your last 2 paragraphs in particular.

Quite frankly could care less who kids support in 20 years & I’ll be long gone in 100 so being preached to by an Arsenal fan in the current day isn’t my idea of a fun time.

Think most can justify City winning anything with the 100-odd charges & the fact no one outside their own fanbase cares.

Think about it. You’re on a Manchester United forum preaching to their fans about how another club will surpass their league win total eventually but remind me how many leagues have Arsenal won again? This is my issue with Arsenal fans
What the hell City overhauling United in terms of trophy haul has to do with this discussion I don’t know but I’m eager to hear.

I don’t want anyone to ‘win’ anything other than Manchester United & the responses from your lot in here are a perfect example of why I wouldn’t even wish your lot a happy birthday let alone a title.
 

GoonerBear

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You could make that argument but I thought this was an Arsenal thread & your byline says you’re an Arsenal fan.

You’ve been drawn into the exact same nonsense you lot always do & what my issue was with the initial post.

Keep your eyes on yourselves but no, because you can’t argue about being anything other than United inferiors you’re now bigging up Liverpool? So do I now counter with ‘well Real Madrid. . .’ or stick to the clubs at hand.

The post was telling United fans they should want Arsenal to win it. Feck the lot of you.


Is this the Man City thread or the Arsenal one? Cause as you said someone’s rattled, & that person would be the Arsenal fan using City’s trophy haul in a discussion focused on Manchester United & Arsenal.

Did you read my initial post? Because it more than covers your last 2 paragraphs in particular.


What the hell City overhauling United in terms of trophy haul has to do with this discussion I don’t know but I’m eager to hear.

I don’t want anyone to ‘win’ anything other than Manchester United & the responses from your lot in here are a perfect example of why I wouldn’t even wish your lot a happy birthday let alone a title.
You should remove the AFC out your username if you hate us that much, I keep getting confused thinking you are an Arsenal fan because of it. ;)
 

InfiniteBoredom

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This isn't a two horse race. If it was, then sure, rock up there, park the bus and take your point. As it is, it's just them saying 'We don't believe Liverpool will win out from here'.
It’s them saying a point is better than nothing at a ground they haven’t gotten a point at for 8,9 seasons.

We are understandably pissed and worried because the Scousers are in the pole position now, but let’s be objective about it. Arsenal got their hardest fixture left out of the way not empty handed, that’s important. Pool has averaged 2,31 ppg this season, they will drop point in one, likely more of the remaining fixtures.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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You should remove the AFC out your username if you hate us that much, I keep getting confused thinking you are an Arsenal fan because of it. ;)
Nah I’m good.

AFC = Arsenal Fans (are) C****

[I say this with a number of family supporting them btw]
 

Remember the geese

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It’s them saying a point is better than nothing at a ground they haven’t gotten a point at for 8,9 seasons.

We are understandably pissed and worried because the Scousers are in the pole position now, but let’s be objective about it. Arsenal got their hardest fixture left out of the way not empty handed, that’s important. Pool has averaged 2,31 ppg this season, they will drop point in one, likely more of the remaining fixtures.
I just don't agree. Yes, it's a difficult fixture, but not attempting to win the game is just leaving everything open to chance. There's every chance that Liverpool will win out from here. They may not of course, but if they do, Arsenal can look back at this cowardly non-performance.
 

GoonerBear

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I just don't agree. Yes, it's a difficult fixture, but not attempting to win the game is just leaving everything open to chance. There's every chance that Liverpool will win out from here. They may not of course, but if they do, Arsenal can look back at this cowardly non-performance.
The problem is the risk / reward weightings. If you open up, to risk trying to win the game, you risk leaving more spaces for the likes of De Bruyne, Foden and Silva to play in, players that thrive in space. I’ve seen this argument a few times now. Defeat, and all that it brings, would have ended Arsenal’s title hopes. A draw at least keeps us in it for another week.

Klopp is a manager that famously only plays 1 way, he goes out to win games. How many league games has he won at The Etihad? How did Liverpool fare stats wise in November trying to win the game vs Arsenal who played cowardly football?
 

Daydreamer

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I just don't agree. Yes, it's a difficult fixture, but not attempting to win the game is just leaving everything open to chance. There's every chance that Liverpool will win out from here. They may not of course, but if they do, Arsenal can look back at this cowardly non-performance.
I mean, we did attempt to win the game… we just weren’t successful. We tried to stay in the game and nick it on the counter. We succeeded at the first and failed at second.

Seeing as City have just gone 57 straight games scoring at home, keeping a clean sheet against them was already hard enough.
 

ArtetasHair

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Had we lost the usual suspects would be saying how we bottled it again at a rival. Can't win with certain critics.

In any case we had the better chances and had Trossard cleared it to Martinelli in the end who knows. I for one am glad we didn't collapse and I believe in terms of clean sheets this is our best run since 2006.
 

Vidooq

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I'm still under the impression that Arsenal had to win at City in order to become champions, instead of playing for the draw. I will circle back to this post once the league is done, to see if these 3 points turn out to be crucial.
 

Stadjer

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I'm still under the impression that Arsenal had to win at City in order to become champions, instead of playing for the draw. I will circle back to this post once the league is done, to see if these 3 points turn out to be crucial.
A draw away against Manchester City is a good result. If Arsenal end up 2 or 3 points short to win the league, it will because they only got 1 from the 6 points they could have gotten against Fulham for example. Not because they couldnt win away at Manchester City.
 

WeePat

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I don’t know why there’s such a big deal about the way Arsenal played. A point away at City is a good point. Beating your title rivals at home and not losing away is usually a good outcome. If they don’t win the title it means they messed up somewhere else. No one in this league is expected to win at the Etihad.
 

Dumbstar

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A draw away against Manchester City is a good result. If Arsenal end up 2 or 3 points short to win the league, it will because they only got 1 from the 6 points they could have gotten against Fulham for example. Not because they couldnt win away at Manchester City.
That's just an excuse. You play the hand your dealt. At the start of the game Arsenal would have known a draw would give Liverpool too much advantage and obviously Pep will overtake them too as that's what City do in the business end.

All facts and information were available to them at the start as mentioned and they had to set the gameplan accordingly. They chose the wrong game and are now trying to spin it as the 'right' game.
 

Josh 76

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I'm still under the impression that Arsenal had to win at City in order to become champions, instead of playing for the draw. I will circle back to this post once the league is done, to see if these 3 points turn out to be crucial.
Arsenal lost the league when they lost back to back at home to West Ham and away to Fulham. City and Liverpool would never do that.
 

ThierryHenry14

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Not sure what the big deal is. Just enjoy the ride and see where it ends. I would guess most Arsenal fans are happy with a point in Etihad.
 

awop

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A draw away against Manchester City is a good result. If Arsenal end up 2 or 3 points short to win the league, it will because they only got 1 from the 6 points they could have gotten against Fulham for example. Not because they couldnt win away at Manchester City.
Exactly, the reaction to the game is so weird. It's like all of a sudden Arsenal owes you a good Sunday entertainment. Dropping points against everyone else is where improvements will need to be made if we can't beat those cheaters this year. If Liverpool goes on to win it, so be it.
Saying we should have went there and win because Walker and Stones are out is laughable. They just plugged in a 150M duo of defenders instead, boohoo.
 

Powderfinger

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That's just an excuse. You play the hand your dealt. At the start of the game Arsenal would have known a draw would give Liverpool too much advantage and obviously Pep will overtake them too as that's what City do in the business end.

All facts and information were available to them at the start as mentioned and they had to set the gameplan accordingly. They chose the wrong game and are now trying to spin it as the 'right' game.
You're just assuming Arteta sees the league the way you seem to do.

An alternative is that he thinks neither Liverpool nor City aren't at the level they were in past years when they had dominant run ins, all three sides have tricky fixtures and are likely to drop points somewhere, and with a drop at City he stays firmly in the race whereas a loss puts him chasing two sides.

The idea is absurd that Liverpool has "too much advantage" over Arsenal when they are two points up with nine matches to play and have been the poorest performer of the three sides by underlying metrics over the course of the season. Klopp is a genius for getting so much out of this Liverpool side, which by any measure isn't really close to the best teams of 2018-2022. You also have five away matches left and so far have only won about half your away games. Anything can happen from here.
 

Dumbstar

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You're just assuming Arteta sees the league the way you seem to do.

An alternative is that he thinks neither Liverpool nor City aren't at the level they were in past years when they had dominant run ins, all three sides have tricky fixtures and are likely to drop points somewhere, and with a drop at City he stays firmly in the race whereas a loss puts him chasing two sides.
Exactly. The naivity of a young manager and his followers. Lucky for him Klopp and possibly Pep will be buggering off soon so his naivity won't be a big issue in the following seasons.
 

Sandikan

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Going there and playing for a point, like they think that's enough. Such arrogance.
This is just such an outrageously weird view.

You think with 10 games left they're going to go gung ho at a side they usually get mashed at? Knowing that a draw leaves them 2 points off Liverpool, i.e. 1 game week from going top, with their better goal difference?

Meanwhile, a loss would have put them 3rd favourites.
 

Sandikan

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Not sure what the big deal is. Just enjoy the ride and see where it ends. I would guess most Arsenal fans are happy with a point in Etihad.
Yep, it's weird logic from those moaning.
If there were 4 or 5 games left, then it might have been a missed opportunity, but a draw in their by far hardest game left is a very solid result.
 

Daydreamer

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This is just such an outrageously weird view.

You think with 10 games left they're going to go gung ho at a side they usually get mashed at? Knowing that a draw leaves them 2 points off Liverpool, i.e. 1 game week from going top, with their better goal difference?

Meanwhile, a loss would have put them 3rd favourites.
Plus, had we gone there and tried to play our usual game and been soundly beaten… you know the response would have been that we were punished for our arrogance.

Or had we won and had the audacity to celebrate… that too would be called arrogant.

If peeps think Arsenal and its fanbase are arrogant they can just say so (many do, in fact). There’s no need to tie that opinion to how we set out against the reigning treble-winning champions in their own stadium. That’s a huge stretch.
 

Remember the geese

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This is just such an outrageously weird view.

You think with 10 games left they're going to go gung ho at a side they usually get mashed at? Knowing that a draw leaves them 2 points off Liverpool, i.e. 1 game week from going top, with their better goal difference?

Meanwhile, a loss would have put them 3rd favourites.
It doesn't matter what they usually do. If it was a two horse race, no problem. However, a point isn't really sufficient. Sure, they aren't out of the title race, but they are now in a position where they are relying on Liverpool slipping up - which may or may not happen. The brave thing to do would be to go to City and back yourself to win the game, as opposed to doing their best Manchester United impression away at a top 6 club.

If they go on to miss out on the title, I'd be looking back at this game and thinking 'If only we tried to win the game'.
 

Sandikan

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It doesn't matter what they usually do. If it was a two horse race, no problem. However, a point isn't really sufficient. Sure, they aren't out of the title race, but they are now in a position where they are relying on Liverpool slipping up - which may or may not happen. The brave thing to do would be to go to City and back yourself to win the game, as opposed to doing their best Manchester United impression away at a top 6 club.

If they go on to miss out on the title, I'd be looking back at this game and thinking 'If only we tried to win the game'.
That's odd logic though.
There's 9 games left and they're only 2 points behind. There's no reason to risk a loss by pushing too hard.

Lose to City and you have to rely on 2 teams dropping more points than you. Arsenal have a pretty decent run in themselves.
 

Remember the geese

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That's odd logic though.
There's 9 games left and they're only 2 points behind. There's no reason to risk a loss by pushing too hard.

Lose to City and you have to rely on 2 teams dropping more points than you. Arsenal have a pretty decent run in themselves.
Playing for a point is a calculated risk. I understand the strategy, but I don't think it's the right one and I don't think it will pay off. It's just taking a backwards step and not taking the initiative.

I agree that losing the match would have made it very difficult for them to win the league. However, it's risk/reward and I don't think a point is a whole lot of use to either side.
 

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That's odd logic though.
There's 9 games left and they're only 2 points behind. There's no reason to risk a loss by pushing too hard.

Lose to City and you have to rely on 2 teams dropping more points than you. Arsenal have a pretty decent run in themselves.
Ferguson would never go for this softly softly approach. Roy Keane would deck him. Beating City would have put pressure on BOTH City and Liverpool. Drawing with City has put pressure on neither, both clubs are now confident of finishing above Arsenal with their tough away fixtures and the CL.

Ferguson would never allow his club to wait for others to slip up. All or nothing, was it?
 

Changeisgood

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Yep, it's weird logic from those moaning.
If there were 4 or 5 games left, then it might have been a missed opportunity, but a draw in their by far hardest game left is a very solid result.
Not really getting it either. The result was fine. The mentality going into the game could be a bit more adventurous but I have the feeling the same people calling the team to have a lack of ambition (but somehow arrogant at the same time) would be calling us naive and bottlers had we gone after them and lost 4-1. Fact is very few teams come out of there with full points. Pool didn't do it either and looked for me distinctly second best in their game at the Etihad.

We got a draw and live to fight another day. We were not even battered during the game, they had one shot on goal? I am worried about Brighton and Spurs myself. Hoping that if we are still in the hunt Man Utd wont have much to play for by the time our game is kicking around.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I don’t know why there’s such a big deal about the way Arsenal played. A point away at City is a good point. Beating your title rivals at home and not losing away is usually a good outcome. If they don’t win the title it means they messed up somewhere else. No one in this league is expected to win at the Etihad.
Exactly this. 4 points against City and Liverpool this year is a great result in the grand scheme and breaking that mental curse of always getting stomped at Etihad is good for long term mentality. If 1 or 2 points decides the title, we can look at something like the poor results at the end of December in games where we should have got points off matches we should have won as the reason, not getting a draw at Etihad. I still won't believe we can actually win the league until it happens though.
 

Sandikan

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Ferguson would never go for this softly softly approach. Roy Keane would deck him. Beating City would have put pressure on BOTH City and Liverpool. Drawing with City has put pressure on neither, both clubs are now confident of finishing above Arsenal with their tough away fixtures and the CL.

Ferguson would never allow his club to wait for others to slip up. All or nothing, was it?
Not always.
I remember we put out a team purely built for containment away at City that year City first bottled it, then we saw a 4-2 lead v Everton end 4-4, then lose to Wigan, then lose to City.
 

ThierryHenry14

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Yep, it's weird logic from those moaning.
If there were 4 or 5 games left, then it might have been a missed opportunity, but a draw in their by far hardest game left is a very solid result.
Those moaning mostly are not from Arsenal fans anyway. However in terms of entertainment the Brentford vs Man Utd game was more end to end and offered a lot more excitement. The City vs Arsenal game was indeed very boring to watch. Only 3 shots on target!!!
 

Sandikan

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Not really getting it either. The result was fine. The mentality going into the game could be a bit more adventurous but I have the feeling the same people calling the team to have a lack of ambition (but somehow arrogant at the same time) would be calling us naive and bottlers had we gone after them and lost 4-1. Fact is very few teams come out of there with full points. Pool didn't do it either and looked for me distinctly second best in their game at the Etihad.

We got a draw and live to fight another day. We were not even battered during the game, they had one shot on goal? I am worried about Brighton and Spurs myself. Hoping that if we are still in the hunt Man Utd wont have much to play for by the time our game is kicking around.
If that old looking little fella had played the very easy ball across the box for Martinelli romping in, you might have nicked it.
But otherwise it was pretty much a defensive job, and a good one at that.
 

Hammondo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
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7,054
That's just an excuse. You play the hand your dealt. At the start of the game Arsenal would have known a draw would give Liverpool too much advantage and obviously Pep will overtake them too as that's what City do in the business end.

All facts and information were available to them at the start as mentioned and they had to set the gameplan accordingly. They chose the wrong game and are now trying to spin it as the 'right' game.
I'm not, Arsenals midfield simply cannot compete with City's, that's clearly. So they knew they would lose that midfield battle badly and played counter attacking football, which is a normal response.