Behind the Curtain draft (Eastern Europe) | 1/8 | Skizzo vs Tuppet 11:5

[harms]

@Skizzo _____________________________________________________________ @Tuppet

The draft thread with lots of additional information
Write-ups on specific players


Skizzo

FORMATION: 4-2-3-1

A blend of creativity, pace, and defensive steel with quality ball players and creativity throughout.

The defensive unit is marshalled by Jan Popluhar, and surrounded by complementary players who would provide options for him to find with passing, as well as cover if he moves out of defence.

Nemanja Matic and Vladimir Jugovic provide an all action midfield who offer great protection for the defence, as well as being able to retain possession and keep the ball moving along where needed. I don't claim either to be Pirlo on the ball, but they can recycle possession to the creative outlets where necessary.

Kazimierz Deyna is chief creator, and offers a goal threat himself (as seen as him being the leading scorer at the '72 Olympics where Poland won Gold) He would thrive on the movement and other creativity around him with Nedved and Kanchelskis offering a threatening outlet.

Dimitar Berbatov leads the line. While he was often viewed as a "casual" or "laid back" type of player, he was also capable of scoring goals. His ability to hold the ball up will allow Deyna to move up the field and link play, as well as allow Nedved and Kanchelskis to run in behind and create openings. While he enjoyed dropping deep to get involved..

Berbatov is, however, capable of adapting his style to play more directly when required; in April 2010, for example, with Rooney absent, Berbatov gave a performance against his former side Tottenham which, in James Ducker's words, was as if he had "decided to take it upon himself to impersonate the England striker". Combining uncharacteristic determination and effort with his regular technical skill, he contributed to the first Manchester United goal and helped United to a 3–1 victory

Profiles:
Klaus Urbanczuk by @Skizzo :

• Write-up

Deyna, Anczok, Gorgon (Poland of 70/80s) by @Skizzo :

• Write-up

Tuppet

A straightforward 4-2-3-1.

Defense: Vladimir Beara lead the back line as one of the greatest goalkeeper of all time. Trifon Ivanov would take the same stopper role he performed to perfection in WC 94. While Chivadze would take the Sweeper role. Both Durkovic and Rats act as balanced fullbacks, providing overlaps to their wingers but not playing as advanced as wing backs.

Midfield: In Midfield Yugoslavian great Cajkovski takes the defensive midfield role. Cajkovski's job would be to protect the back line in midfield and also provide playmaking from deep. He along with Chivadze would be a source of quick out balls for fast counter attacks through wings or middle. Muntyan takes his favored box to box role. He provides lot of stamina and energy along with fantastic technical ability to exert control in the midfield.

Florian Albert: Like many great forwards Albert went through a transformation in his career where he dropped deeper and deeper and at his peak in 1966 WC he was mostly a midfielder. A different player from 62 WC's golden boot winner he did not score a single goal in 66 but was a better and a more influential player. In this game he would take the same role, and would be playing as primary playmaker of my team.

Attack: My attack revolves around the beautiful Albert-Bene partnership from 66 WC. This is topped off by one of the greatest finisher in history Ferenc Deak and the brilliant & hard working Boniek on Left. Bene would play as right wing forward providing extra goal threat along with Deak, while Boniek with his movement, pace & power would create room for Deak to score goals.

Overall Skizzo got a great team but I think my attack is just too hot to handle for his defense. Boniek-Deak-Bene are some of the best attackers in the draft and with Albert supplying them and a robust defensive framework behind I can see us eventually outscoring Skizzo's team.

Profiles:

Ferenc Deak by @Tuppet :
Write-up
Ferenc Bene by @Tuppet :
Write-up

 

[Joga Bonito]

Some match-up this

 

[Skizzo]

First off, good luck @Tuppet ! Should be a interesting one with both of us set up in similar styles, and a clash or eras almost with certain players

I would take offense that you'd outscore me here though (Obviously, as otherwise why would I bother showing up?) as I feel my defense is stronger across the back than whats on offer at the other end of the field. I think Popluhar - Gorgon is a better pairing than Chivadze - Ivanov, and would offer more in terms of ball retention and recycling possession.

The Nedved - Anczok left side would cause all sorts of problems for Durkovic, who i imagine won't get a whole lot of help from Bene here.

And before Berbatov gets a rough ride or underrated, his stats speak for themselves

Years Team Apps (Gls)
1998–2001 CSKA Sofia 49 (26)
2001 Bayer Leverkusen II 7 (6)
2001–2006 Bayer Leverkusen 154 (69)
2006–2008 Tottenham Hotspur 70 (27)
2008–2012 Manchester United 108 (48)
2012–2014 Fulham 51 (19)
2014–2015 Monaco 38 (13)
2015–2016 PAOK Salonika 17 (4)
National team
1999 Bulgaria U18 2 (2)
1999–2000 Bulgaria U21 3 (3)
1999–2010 Bulgaria

Goals wherever he's gone, and thats often being tasked as a creative player too. He can lead the line and score, as evidenced by his 20 in 32 in the league when United won the Title, the same season he won the Golden Boot.

Individual[edit]

• Bulgarian Man of the Year: 2009
• Bulgarian Footballer of the Year (7 – record holder): (2002, 2004-05, 2007-10)
• UEFA Cup Top Goalscorer: 2000–01*
• AS Monaco Player of the Year: 2014
• Fulham Player of the Season: 2012–13
• Tottenham Hotspur Player of the Year: 2006–07
• Ligue 1 Player of the Month: April 2014
• Premier League Player of the Month: April 2007**, January 2011
• PFA Premier League Team of the Year: 2006–07, 2010–11
• Premier League Golden Boot: 2010–11***
• Premier League Golden Boot Landmark Award: 2010–11 (10, 20 goals)
• FIFA FIFPro World XI Nominee: 2007, 2008, 2010

The interplay between him and Deyna would be wonderful to watch.

 

[Raees]

Even match up this, rate both sides.

 

[harms]

Very hard to decide. Some personal favorites in Berba, Muntyan, Boniek; beautifully balanced and very even teams

Tuppet probably has an upper hand in one-by-one comparison, but the only real difference that I can notice is Beara vs Soskic

 

[Tuppet]

Yeah I've been looking at both sides for a minute or so and I don't know how to separate them. You have a quality side skizzo and this is one of those games that could go either way. Anyway I am here to argue for my boys and lets see how voters see it going down.

Indeed your center back partnership is probably slightly better (I say slightly as both Chivadze & Ivanov are very high quality defenders. I am meaning to do a writeup on them but couldn't find the time.) But then I woulda say Beara is a better goalkeeper than Soskic. A goalkeeper that great Yashin maintained was better than him. I can totally see him a playing a stormer like he played at old trafford against Busby boys, making a series of astonishing saves especially from Sir Bobby Charlton.

In midfield again its hard to separate, Matic had a great season, but Cajkovski was generally rated as the best center half in the world along with the likes of Bozsik and Ocwirk. Along with Beara & Vukas he was one of the leaders of a great Yugoslavian team reaching two Olympic finals and to quarter finals of WC 54. His status in world football was also confirmed by him getting selected for FIFA world XI to play a game against England in 1953 to celebrate 90th anniversary of FA.

Spoiler: FIFA world XI

Spoiler: World Xi formation

The highlight of that game itself doesn't really mention Cajkovski, which is the problem of showcasing defensive minded players but still here's the game's highlight. Watch it for scintillating performances from Sir Stanely Matthews and Kubala -

Spoiler: England vs Rest of the world 1953 highlights

Moving along, I can't separate Jugovic & Muntyan both brilliant hard working technical players. Same with Albert and Deyna.

On attack though I would say Bene was a better player than kanchelskis ( although they are different kind of players) and with the creativity of Albert, Bene, Boniek in the side I would take a phenomenal goal scorer like Deak above a more well rounded striker in Berbatov as well.

 

[harms]

The highlight of that game itself doesn't really mention Cajkovski, which is the problem of showcasing defensive minded players but still here's the game's highlight. Watch it for scintillating performances from Sir Stanely Matthews and Kubala -

Poor Hanappi Absolutely destroyed

 

[Raees]

Poor Hanappi Absolutely destroyed

Was he the number three

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

What an even match. 4231 on both sides. Both selected their LAM as their first pick. Both have standout no.10s in this draft with similar CM pairing behind them and both seem a little better talent in attacking than defense. Its tough for me to compare strikers too since Deak obviously has far better statistics but he didn't play in one of the top leagues back in the 50s.

 

[Gio]

I've said it before, but Beara's save at 2.36-2.40 is astonishing.

 

[harms]

Was he the number three

Yep

 

[Raees]

I've said it before, but Beara's save at 2.36-2.40 is astonishing.

Agreed that was what caught my eye. The fact the reaction to it was muted suggests to me it was a routine sort of save for him which further illustrates his class.

I picked him in a draft but can't recall which one, was it the euro one me and you paired up in?

 

[Gio]

Agreed that was what caught my eye. The fact the reaction to it was muted suggests to me it was a routine sort of save for him which further illustrates his class.

I picked him in a draft but can't recall which one, was it the euro one me and you paired up in?

That's right. I'm sure nobody picked up on Hannappi getting a roasting from Matthews either, which made it a double win!

 

[Raees]

That's right. I'm sure nobody picked up on Hannappi getting a roasting from Matthews either, which made it a double win!

Always a good feeling introducing a new player to drafts. Haha yup, hannapi's days of filling in as a full back in a draft are now numbered.

 

[Gio]

Aye. His left-back pedigree looks shot to pieces, but I've seen a couple of his games at right-back and he's much more natural there.

 

[Skizzo]

Kanchelskis and Bene are indeed different types of players, but Kanchelskis offers that direct threat with sheer pace alone that defenders hate.


He's proven that ability at a high level, and ruined some good defenders in the process, and coupled with the Nedved - Anczok flank in the other side, I feel we can open up some real gaps to exploit and make the difference here

 

[Tuppet]

What an even match. 4231 on both sides. Both selected their LAM as their first pick. Both have standout no.10s in this draft with similar CM pairing behind them and both seem a little better talent in attacking than defense. Its tough for me to compare strikers too since Deak obviously has far better statistics but he didn't play in one of the top leagues back in the 50s.

I agree with most of the assessment but the bolded part. I don't really have definitive data but I spend a bit of time here establishing that Hungarian league was infact one of the top European leagues at that time and stayed there quite a few years after that. Its a bit like Pele staying for most of his career in Brazil, which is sometimes used against his pedigree.

In the pre war and early post war era English league was probably strongest. With Chapman's W-M innovation and fantastic individual players they probably would have won all the early WCs have they deigned them worthy of competing. But apart from that its all Eastern Eurpoe and may be Italy which were the top dogs. Spanish and German leagues were hardly the best ones and with the isolation there were not enough games between SA and European teams to determine which had better leagues.

Take Mitropa cup for example - The only European club competition was totally dominated by Austrian and Hungarian clubs. Even though likes of Juventus & Bolgana participated in them but didn't win it before the 60s. In 50s for example the competition was held 6 times and 5 Hungarian clubs reached to the final rest were made by Austria, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia clubs.

If you take national teams as example- The European competition CEIC was won by Austria in 1931-32, by Hungary in 48-53 and Czechoslovakia in 55-60. If you take the number of great players playing in a single league, Hungarian league wins there as well, in the early post war era all of the best players were more or less concentrated in Hungary - your Kubala, Bozsik, Puskas, Hidegkuti, Kocsis, Nyers, Czibor, Budai, Szucs and so on and so forth. I don't know any other European league that had such a concentration of talent.

So there, Not anything definitive but everything points to Deak's goalscoring stats taking place in a pretty good standard of league.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I agree with most of the assessment but the bolded part. I don't really have definitive data but I spend a bit of time here establishing that Hungarian league was infact one of the top European leagues at that time and stayed there quite a few years after that. Its a bit like Pele staying for most of his career in Brazil, which is sometimes used against his pedigree.

In the pre war and early post war era English league was probably strongest. With Chapman's W-M innovation and fantastic individual players they probably would have won all the early WCs have they deigned them worthy of competing. But apart from that its all Eastern Eurpoe and may be Italy which were the top dogs. Spanish and German leagues were hardly the best ones and with the isolation there were not enough games between SA and European teams to determine which had better leagues.

Take Mitropa cup for example - The only European club competition was totally dominated by Austrian and Hungarian clubs. Even though likes of Juventus & Bolgana participated in them but didn't win it before the 60s. In 50s for example the competition was held 6 times and 5 Hungarian clubs reached to the final rest were made by Austria, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia clubs.

If you take national teams as example- The European competition CEIC was won by Austria in 1931-32, by Hungary in 48-53 and Czechoslovakia in 55-60. If you take the number of great players playing in a single league, Hungarian league wins there as well, in the early post war era all of the best players were more or less concentrated in Hungary - your Kubala, Bozsik, Puskas, Hidegkuti, Kocsis, Nyers, Czibor, Budai, Szucs and so on and so forth. I don't know any other European league that had such a concentration of talent.

So there, Not anything definitive but everything points to Deak's goalscoring stats taking place in a pretty good standard of league.

This is a fair point especially if we talking about comparisons at that time. But my only point was Berbatov played in the PL's golden age and in the CL when there was simply a much greater concentration of world footballing talent in those competitions than would have been possible during Deak's day in any league. Suppose that's a bit unnecessary to as all the draft regulars realize that raw stats can't tell the whole story.

 

[Raees]

Just on the deak issue the reason why I didn't pick him over Willimowski was the lack of proven pedigree on international stage.. shame really because in the CEC that he did feature in with Puskas, they both played well together so he did do well there.

What was the reason for him not playing for Hungary long term again?

 

[Tuppet]

This is a fair point especially if we talking about comparisons at that time. But my only point was Berbatov played in the PL's golden age and in the CL when there was simply a much greater concentration of world footballing talent in those competitions than would have been possible during Deak's day in any league. Suppose that's a bit unnecessary to as all the draft regulars realize that raw stats can't tell the whole story.

Thats true, Deak would have been the first pick (well may be second after Puskas) if we only believed in raw stats. But to pick him (or many other pretty good players) at 6/7/8 and then try to show that he really was a pretty freaking great player and is underrated is kind of the point of these historical types draft.

 

[Tuppet]

Just on the deak issue the reason why I didn't pick him over Willimowski was the lack of proven pedigree on international stage.. shame really because in the CEC that he did feature in with Puskas, they both played well together so he did do well there.

What was the reason for him not playing for Hungary long term again?

in short Sebes was a staunch Communist and Deak was a bit stupid and reckless with his political beliefs (He didn't really had the support of Communist govt). Communist govt banned him from taking part in National team or move abroad. Similar things happen to players who actually moved abroad in beginning like Nyers and Kubala. I think another may be equally good reason was nobody actually missed him, Hungary stumbled upon a fantastic generation of forwards and there was no big uproar about why such a good player is not playing. Again Kubala had similar experience.

Lastly his International pedigree is actually the reason I picked him, if it was only league form I wouldn't have but in the limited games he played, he showed that he would score goals against top opposition. He still holds the record for best GPG in international games for players played above 20 games.

 

[Tuppet]

Rats vs Bats -

 

[Raees]

in short Sebes was a staunch Communist and Deak was a bit stupid and reckless with his political beliefs (He didn't really had the support of Communist govt). Communist govt banned him from taking part in National team or move abroad. Similar things happen to players who actually moved abroad in beginning like Nyers and Kubala. I think another may be equally good reason was nobody actually missed him, Hungary stumbled upon a fantastic generation of forwards and there was no big uproar about why such a good player is not playing. Again Kubala had similar experience.

Lastly his International pedigree is actually the reason I picked him, if it was only league form I wouldn't have but in the limited games he played, he showed that he would score goals against top opposition. He still holds the record for best GPG in international games for players played above 20 games.

Shame, he was approaching his peak as well. Think he would have just made it for World Cup 1954.

 

[Tuppet]

Shame, he was approaching his peak as well. Think he would have just made it for World Cup 1954.

I don't really feel too sorry about that. Its quite possible that if Sebes had his big strong goal scoring forward available to suit W-M, the Hidegkuti experiment might never have happend. The M-M, the false number 9, the game of century (who actually came up with that ?) none of it might have happened. Hungary would have probably still be one of the greatest teams, but its their tactical innovation which made fools out of English players that makes the Hungary Story so romantic.

 

[Raees]

I don't really feel too sorry about that. Its quite possible that if Sebes had his big strong goal scoring forward available to suit W-M, the Hidegkuti experiment might never have happend. The M-M, the false number 9, the game of century (who actually came up with that ?) none of it might have happened. Hungary would have probably still be one of the greatest teams, but its their tactical innovation which made fools out of English players that makes the Hungary Story so romantic.

British press coined the phrase.

Tuppet on a separate note, do you know where to find any match compilation footage of him.

 

[Tuppet]

British press coined the phrase.

Tuppet on a separate note, do you know where to find any match compilation footage of him.

I posted some in the write up here - Deak . Those are some of the international games where he scored.

 

[Raees]

I posted some in the write up here - Deak . Those are some of the international games where he scored.

Sorry I meant Boniek, all I can find is top 10 goals type stuff and I don't have time to watch full games.

 

[Tuppet]

Sorry I meant Boniek, all I can find is top 10 goals type stuff and I don't have time to watch full games.

Oh sure. I should've done a write up on him. but here are a few of his videos -

His famous hattrick in WC 82 -


Then here's his general tribute video -


Finally a beautiful assist in Champions league from left side showing is pace and technique -

 

[Gio]

I agree with most of the assessment but the bolded part. I don't really have definitive data but I spend a bit of time here establishing that Hungarian league was infact one of the top European leagues at that time and stayed there quite a few years after that. Its a bit like Pele staying for most of his career in Brazil, which is sometimes used against his pedigree.

In the pre war and early post war era English league was probably strongest. With Chapman's W-M innovation and fantastic individual players they probably would have won all the early WCs have they deigned them worthy of competing. But apart from that its all Eastern Eurpoe and may be Italy which were the top dogs. Spanish and German leagues were hardly the best ones and with the isolation there were not enough games between SA and European teams to determine which had better leagues.

Take Mitropa cup for example - The only European club competition was totally dominated by Austrian and Hungarian clubs. Even though likes of Juventus & Bolgana participated in them but didn't win it before the 60s. In 50s for example the competition was held 6 times and 5 Hungarian clubs reached to the final rest were made by Austria, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia clubs.

If you take national teams as example- The European competition CEIC was won by Austria in 1931-32, by Hungary in 48-53 and Czechoslovakia in 55-60. If you take the number of great players playing in a single league, Hungarian league wins there as well, in the early post war era all of the best players were more or less concentrated in Hungary - your Kubala, Bozsik, Puskas, Hidegkuti, Kocsis, Nyers, Czibor, Budai, Szucs and so on and so forth. I don't know any other European league that had such a concentration of talent.

So there, Not anything definitive but everything points to Deak's goalscoring stats taking place in a pretty good standard of league.

Yeah, it's an interesting debate trying to place the various leagues before wide European competition formally took place from the 1950s. In the 1920s and 1930s I think the central European sides and the best British sides were probably the strongest based on any cross-border competition that did take place. International friendlies are quite a useful guide at this point. Scotland in particular would have been in contention for a few major tournaments inbetween the wars.

 

[Tuppet]

Added some stuff about Cajkovski in draft thread - Cajkovski
The legend that is Trifon Ivanov

 

[Moby]

Rats vs Bats

 

[Tuppet]

So far bumping this thread did not work for me at all .
Still last hour to go, any remaining managers like to vote ?

Florian Albert & Ferenc Bene -

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

So far bumping this thread did not work for me at all .
Still last hour to go, any remaining managers like to vote ?

Florian Albert & Ferenc Bene -

I have to wuss out out of the voting on this one. You two are most evenly matched sides of the first round tactically and I don't know enough about a few players that might edge it either way.

 

[antohan]

So far bumping this thread did not work for me at all .
Still last hour to go, any remaining managers like to vote ?

Florian Albert & Ferenc Bene -

Great pair mate. It was mostly them (and Zibi of course) that kept me in two minds.

Bottomline is I get a far clearer picture of Skizzo's approach and spine. May just be ignorance, but you need question marks spread around for people to have any degree of confidence in the side and how the game would play out.

That's why I didn't get how perfectly suitable players from the last 10-20 years kept getting picked incredibly late while everyone stockpiled unknown quantities.

 

[Tuppet]

Great pair mate. It was mostly them (and Zibi of course) that kept me in two minds.

Bottomline is I get a far clearer picture of Skizzo's approach and spine. May just be ignorance, but you need question marks spread around for people to have any degree of confidence in the side and how the game would play out.

That's why I didn't get how perfectly suitable players from the last 10-20 years kept getting picked incredibly late while everyone stockpiled unknown quantities.

Yeah I get that, you also mentioned that in Draft thread as well. I am just thinking aloud here but apart from Deak no body is really old old is it ? I mean you must know about my defenders. You have selected Chivadze before and Ivanov is 94's guy. Rats, Muntyan both from 80s. May be Beara & Cajkovski ? But everybody knows about Beara. Yeah Cajkovski & Durkovic are a bit more unknown quantity I suppose. Although both have appeared in drafts before. I actually consciously did not select any one from pre-war era.
Having said that I wouldn't begrudge anyone voting for skizzo's team, its a pretty fine team.

 

[Skizzo]

Great pair mate. It was mostly them (and Zibi of course) that kept me in two minds.

Bottomline is I get a far clearer picture of Skizzo's approach and spine. May just be ignorance, but you need question marks spread around for people to have any degree of confidence in the side and how the game would play out.

That's why I didn't get how perfectly suitable players from the last 10-20 years kept getting picked incredibly late while everyone stockpiled unknown quantities.

That last part always seems to be the conflict people have. Stats and stories of the great players of days gone by, versus the first hand account and endless available footage of players we saw growing up.

I've no doubt @Tuppet has quality in that team, but I don't know how some of them played or operated. (Not to say I don't have the same issue with some of my own picks) but that was the reason I started Berbatov instead of Georgescu. Known quantity over great stats.

I did try and prioritize modernish players in attack, so people can visualize the players on hand.

 

[Skizzo]

Yeah I get that, you also mentioned that in Draft thread as well. I am just thinking aloud here but apart from Deak no body is really old old is it ? I mean you must know about my defenders. You have selected Chivadze before and Ivanov is 94's guy. Rats, Muntyan both from 80s. May be Beara & Cajkovski ? But everybody knows about Beara. Yeah Cajkovski & Durkovic are a bit more unknown quantity I suppose. Although both have appeared in drafts before. I actually consciously did not select any one from pre-war era.
Having said that I wouldn't begrudge anyone voting for skizzo's team, its a pretty fine team.

Some of your players I'm unfamiliar with, but that's more down to my own lack of knowledge and ignorance than them being ancient players. Although I still had to do a lot of digging on my own players too since there's a few I was unfamiliar with

 

[Tuppet]

That last part always seems to be the conflict people have. Stats and stories of the great players of days gone by, versus the first hand account and endless available footage of players we saw growing up.

I've no doubt @Tuppet has quality in that team, but I don't know how some of them played or operated. (Not to say I don't have the same issue with some of my own picks) but that was the reason I started Berbatov instead of Georgescu. Known quantity over great stats.

I did try and prioritize modernish players in attack, so people can visualize the players on hand.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Wow before i voted i was expecting a close match, surprised its such a comfortable lead even though im aware it means very little.
It was very close in my mind, few players on both sides that i love and rate very highly but in the end it was Berbatov that decided the close game, i just dont rate him at this level and see him as a liability.

 

[Skizzo]