Conte | Spurs Manager | Mourning

TheReligion

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So basically he should get no credit at all for league position. I'm not sure if that's what you mean but that is one interpretation of what you are saying.

He is doing a great job at Spurs.
@Bale Bale Bale too

Are you both happy with this style of football?

There were a lot of boos yesterday, moans and groans. The game was alot closer than the score suggested and Leicester were quite dominant with possession.

I rate Conte as a coach by the way but the football is quite ugly and can’t be that enjoyable to watch?
 

DJ_21

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@Bale Bale Bale too

Are you both happy with this style of football?

There were a lot of boos yesterday, moans and groans. The game was alot closer than the score suggested and Leicester were quite dominant with possession.

I rate Conte as a coach by the way but the football is quite ugly and can’t be that enjoyable to watch?
Agreed…. Spurs would of got battered if they played a better team then Leicester.
 

TheReligion

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Agreed…. Spurs would of got battered if they played a better team then Leicester.
Lloris made two very good saves which kept them in it. The first three Spurs goals were all from set pieces which Leicester are poor at. Don’t recall Spurs creating a great deal until later on when Leicester were pushing on chasing.
 

devil99

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Told you so about what ? He has never failed once in his career so far. Juve, Italy, Chelsea and Inter..all have been a success for him.
Jose used to win titles on his second season or something like that with every club before United.

If Conte wins Spurs title he is the greatest ever
 

Bale Bale Bale

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@Bale Bale Bale too

Are you both happy with this style of football?

There were a lot of boos yesterday, moans and groans. The game was alot closer than the score suggested and Leicester were quite dominant with possession.

I rate Conte as a coach by the way but the football is quite ugly and can’t be that enjoyable to watch?
Some games are better than others. Sometimes it can look ugly and disjointed but others controlled and ruthless, personally I enjoy seeing a team rip through the other in a matter of seconds but if it's not quite coming off then for sure it can be a tough watch. What do you want Spurs to do though? Be like Arsenal and try and mimic how Man City play? Even if it's a long-shot, all of the top six should be aiming to win the league but the likelihood of out-City'ing City is pretty remote so instead we look for another way. I don't think it's fair to say that all we do is sit back and break though, there are times where we push higher and look to control more if that's what's required. The reason we don't though is that we have players who are devastating if given the space, so we look to draw teams onto us.

Lloris made two very good saves which kept them in it. The first three Spurs goals were all from set pieces which Leicester are poor at. Don’t recall Spurs creating a great deal until later on when Leicester were pushing on chasing.
The 3rd goal came from Bentancur pressing high up the pitch and stealing the ball off Ndidi.
 

TheReligion

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Some games are better than others. Sometimes it can look ugly and disjointed but others controlled and ruthless, personally I enjoy seeing a team rip through the other in a matter of seconds but if it's not quite coming off then for sure it can be a tough watch. What do you want Spurs to do though? Be like Arsenal and try and mimic how Man City play? Even if it's a long-shot, all of the top six should be aiming to win the league but the likelihood of out-City'ing City is pretty remote so instead we look for another way. I don't think it's fair to say that all we do is sit back and break though, there are times where we push higher and look to control more if that's what's required. The reason we don't though is that we have players who are devastating if given the space, so we look to draw teams onto us.



The 3rd goal came from Bentancur pressing high up the pitch and stealing the ball off Ndidi.
I didn’t feel you were devastating on the counter yesterday though if I’m honest. Obviously later on you got some joy but the dynamic of the game has changed then. It was an odd watch as I felt it was wave upon wave of Leicester dominance for 3/4 of the match despite the goals flying in at both ends.

I wasn’t sure if it was an off day but the passing out from the back and in midfield looked really sloppy from Spurs and the errors from Leicester helped massively. As I say the first few goals were from set plays.

Not a dig at Spurs just the first time I’ve really watched 90 minutes and found it a really sloppy display. I won’t count Chelsea as appreciate you may set up differently for that.
 

balaks

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@Bale Bale Bale too

Are you both happy with this style of football?

There were a lot of boos yesterday, moans and groans. The game was alot closer than the score suggested and Leicester were quite dominant with possession.

I rate Conte as a coach by the way but the football is quite ugly and can’t be that enjoyable to watch?
We can improve a lot in terms of keeping possession and up until yesterday one of our most important players was playing like a non league footballer. Despite all the talk about us being negative and so on we are making a lot of decent chances in the games and scoring quite a few goals. We may not be as an attractive team to watch as City, Arsenal and so on but I still enjoy watching us because I enjoy the tactical side of the game which perhaps isn't for everyone.

Hopefully we can sharpen up the possession and get a bit more clinical up front because if we do I genuinely think we will have a great season.

I was at the game yesterday and it was brilliant entertainment. Loved every second of it.
 

TheReligion

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We can improve a lot in terms of keeping possession and up until yesterday one of our most important players was playing like a non league footballer. Despite all the talk about us being negative and so on we are making a lot of decent chances in the games and scoring quite a few goals. We may not be as an attractive team to watch as City, Arsenal and so on but I still enjoy watching us because I enjoy the tactical side of the game which perhaps isn't for everyone.

Hopefully we can sharpen up the possession and get a bit more clinical up front because if we do I genuinely think we will have a great season.

I was at the game yesterday and it was brilliant entertainment. Loved every second of it.
I think that’s fair enough. I guess the reaction from the crowd yesterday showed it isn’t for everyone but if he gets some silverware style will be overlooked. It kind of reminds me of United early in the Mourinho reign.

What’s this about Bissouma struggling tactically? Because he’s used to being in a more possession based side perhaps?
 

balaks

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I think that’s fair enough. I guess the reaction from the crowd yesterday showed it isn’t for everyone but if he gets some silverware style will be overlooked. It kind of reminds me of United early in the Mourinho reign.

What’s this about Bissouma struggling tactically? Because he’s used to being in a more possession based side perhaps?
I think Conte is obsessive about positional play in every aspect of the game and perhaps Bissouma isn't used to that level of intense coaching and is struggling to adapt within a strict system. He is quality though and I'm sure once it clicks with him he will be a huge asset to us. Him coming on yesterday helped change the game as we totally shut down any threat from Leicester from that point on.
 

el3mel

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Jose used to win titles on his second season or something like that with every club before United.

If Conte wins Spurs title he is the greatest ever
Winning the title from City at the moment feels like a pipe dream, especially with them now having Haaland.

However if he manages to make them as competitive as they used to be during Poch's era, and top it with a domestic cup of so, he would be a huge success..
 

giorno

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They weren't this dull last season btw. For the most part they tended to tear teams apart

They've started a lot more defensive and cynical this season...
 

Bale Bale Bale

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Thought this was interesting:



Unsustainable perhaps, though I imagine last season wasn't much different. I'm guessing the inverse(defensive statistics) would also have us as an outlier.
 

balaks

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They weren't this dull last season btw. For the most part they tended to tear teams apart

They've started a lot more defensive and cynical this season...
If we are defensive and cynical what way would you describe the way Utd have been playing? Goals scored so far - Spurs 18 (second highest in the league behind City), Utd 8. Something not adding up here hmmm...
 

Scroto Baggins

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Conte needs quality wingbacks, at the moment he has clowns outside a 33 y/o Perisic who will be good mostly for 1 game a week. Every time I see Royal I dont understand what Conte sees in him. Crossing not great, cant beat a man, cant pick a pass, Im guessing defensively he is ok? He is legitimately one of the worst wing backs in the league for me. Spence and Sessegnon ones for the future. Which leaves Doherty who must of shat in Conte's wheeties or something.

Add to this their midfield is industrious and physical with very little creativity or passing vision. So with sh&t wing backs and that kind of midfield how do they progress the ball? It means Kane has to drop into midfield right? His passing is probably better than just about anyone else in that team, Kulusevski the only other player to have any kind of vision.

So they just sit back in that Conte defensive block, cede possession, and wait to counter. With the goal scoring prowess they have even a sniff on the counter they are in with a good chance. No one wants to be 2 on 2 with Kane and Son running at you, they can both shoot from anywhere on either foot with power and technique.. As long as he is getting results the fans will tolerate it. But like Jose ball, if the results dry up you have a very short rope before the fans turn on you and the sack is just a formality at that point.
 

balaks

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Conte needs quality wingbacks, at the moment he has clowns outside a 33 y/o Perisic who will be good mostly for 1 game a week. Every time I see Royal I dont understand what Conte sees in him. Crossing not great, cant beat a man, cant pick a pass, Im guessing defensively he is ok? He is legitimately one of the worst wing backs in the league for me. Spence and Sessegnon ones for the future. Which leaves Doherty who must of shat in Conte's wheeties or something.

Add to this their midfield is industrious and physical with very little creativity or passing vision. So with sh&t wing backs and that kind of midfield how do they progress the ball? It means Kane has to drop into midfield right? His passing is probably better than just about anyone else in that team, Kulusevski the only other player to have any kind of vision.

So they just sit back in that Conte defensive block, cede possession, and wait to counter. With the goal scoring prowess they have even a sniff on the counter they are in with a good chance. No one wants to be 2 on 2 with Kane and Son running at you, they can both shoot from anywhere on either foot with power and technique.. As long as he is getting results the fans will tolerate it. But like Jose ball, if the results dry up you have a very short rope before the fans turn on you and the sack is just a formality at that point.
I read posts like this and then I look at the table and get confused.
 

Teja

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I read posts like this and then I look at the table and get confused.
I do agree with that post though, they're doing fine in the table but they just don't generate that much threat in attack.

Even their counter attacking play is extremely reliant on Kane. He receives the ball under extreme pressure and somehow still manages to make something of it. He's going to get run into the ground this season with the WC and the fixture congestion.

I predict a Spurs implosion as soon as Kane misses a couple of games.
 

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I really can’t understand the constant sniggering: the great majority agrees he has steadied a good, yet not outstanding team overall, which is now well drilled, focused on results and finding a way to get them, their style being okeish with occasional score galores. They are a very solid pick for a CL spot, with winning the League a miracle and finishing fifth a failure. I mean… it is exactly what he was supposed to do, innit? Of course, as long as he has the first place in sight, he needs to push, huff and puff… again, business as usual, right?
 

balaks

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I do agree with that post though, they're doing fine in the table but they just don't generate that much threat in attack.

Even their counter attacking play is extremely reliant on Kane. He receives the ball under extreme pressure and somehow still manages to make something of it. He's going to get run into the ground this season with the WC and the fixture congestion.

I predict a Spurs implosion as soon as Kane misses a couple of games.
We have scored 18 goals so far. That doesn't suggest a team that 'just don't generate that much threat in attack'.

If we are not generating threat in attack then how bad in attack must all the other teams be? We have scored more goals than Arsenal who are being lauded as one of the best attacking teams in the country. Just doesn't make any sense does it?
 

Teja

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We have scored 18 goals so far. That doesn't suggest a team that 'just don't generate that much threat in attack'.

If we are not generating threat in attack then how bad in attack must all the other teams be? We have scored more goals than Arsenal who are being lauded as one of the best attacking teams in the country. Just doesn't make any sense does it?
Goals are only one way of looking at it. There's the eye test and I don't really see a lot about Spurs attack beyond Kane heroics. But anyway, look at data for a more objective view:

You can look at things like zones of control (pitch divided into segments and you calculate how many touches the opposition team has in a zone vs your own). Spurs don't dominate the opposition side of the pitch at all. Compare that to teams you're up against like Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc. and the heatmap's closer to teams like Southampton than to Arsenal. PPDA (10th), High turn overs (19th) etc again are poor.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/08/premier-league-stats-2022-23/

This isn't to say the above is inherently bad - xG is up there with the big boys and I suppose as long as you generate xG it doesn't matter if you generate it via counter attacks or via sustained dominance of the ball but I feel like this sort of football is good for cup games - over the course of the season you will accumulate draws, losses against the lesser teams.
 

balaks

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Goals are only one way of looking at it. There's the eye test and I don't really see a lot about Spurs attack beyond Kane heroics. But anyway, look at data for a more objective view:

You can look at things like zones of control (pitch divided into segments and you calculate how many touches the opposition team has in a zone vs your own). Spurs don't dominate the opposition side of the pitch at all. Compare that to teams you're up against like Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc. and the heatmap's closer to teams like Southampton than to Arsenal. PPDA (10th), High turn overs (19th) etc again are poor.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/08/premier-league-stats-2022-23/

This isn't to say the above is inherently bad - xG is up there with the big boys and I suppose as long as you generate xG it doesn't matter if you generate it via counter attacks or via sustained dominance of the ball but I feel like this sort of football is good for cup games - over the course of the season you will accumulate draws, losses against the lesser teams.
You say this but Kane has not played well this season so far despite scoring and Son for the most part has been hopeless (apart from this week obviously). So our two best attacking players have been far from their best so far yet we are the second highest scoring team in the league. Our reliance on Kane is the lowest it has ever been now we have Richarlison who is the first able deputy we have ever had for him. What excites me is that there is clearly a LOT more to come from this side and we have mastered the art of not particularly playing well but being so well coached that we can still get results. When players like Kane and Son really click into gear we will start blowing away teams regularly.
 

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If we are defensive and cynical what way would you describe the way Utd have been playing? Goals scored so far - Spurs 18 (second highest in the league behind City), Utd 8. Something not adding up here hmmm...
Weird that you'd bring up how United are playing to a Real Madrid fan talking about Spurs play.
 

ayushreddevil9

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Weird that you'd bring up how United are playing to a Real Madrid fan talking about Spurs play.
Can imagine them having a conversation with their mates about Utd playing in the EL after their loss to Sporting.
 

Sky1981

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Goals are only one way of looking at it. There's the eye test and I don't really see a lot about Spurs attack beyond Kane heroics. But anyway, look at data for a more objective view:

You can look at things like zones of control (pitch divided into segments and you calculate how many touches the opposition team has in a zone vs your own). Spurs don't dominate the opposition side of the pitch at all. Compare that to teams you're up against like Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc. and the heatmap's closer to teams like Southampton than to Arsenal. PPDA (10th), High turn overs (19th) etc again are poor.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/08/premier-league-stats-2022-23/

This isn't to say the above is inherently bad - xG is up there with the big boys and I suppose as long as you generate xG it doesn't matter if you generate it via counter attacks or via sustained dominance of the ball but I feel like this sort of football is good for cup games - over the course of the season you will accumulate draws, losses against the lesser teams.
They have Harry Kane fit and firing. Off course they're utilizing him to the best of his ability.

It's a weird view that teams have to play beyond their core advantage just to prove they can do it. Which is stupid.

It's like asking Tyson to play like Ali and Mayweather to play like Ali.

Whatever works is the right method.
 

Teja

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You say this but Kane has not played well this season so far despite scoring and Son for the most part has been hopeless (apart from this week obviously). So our two best attacking players have been far from their best so far yet we are the second highest scoring team in the league. Our reliance on Kane is the lowest it has ever been now we have Richarlison who is the first able deputy we have ever had for him. What excites me is that there is clearly a LOT more to come from this side and we have mastered the art of not particularly playing well but being so well coached that we can still get results. When players like Kane and Son really click into gear we will start blowing away teams regularly.
I mean I'll take your word for it but he has been fantastic (independent of the scoring) whenever I watched him. His ability to drop, receive the ball under pressure and make a productive pass to set up a counter is incredible. His goalscoring is only secondary.

My instinct is that most of the threat Spurs generate in a game is because the opposition pushes forward, makes a mistake, Spurs play it to Kane's feet and he makes something happen.

They have Harry Kane fit and firing. Off course they're utilizing him to the best of his ability.

It's a weird view that teams have to play beyond their core advantage just to prove they can do it. Which is stupid.

It's like asking Tyson to play like Ali and Mayweather to play like Ali.

Whatever works is the right method.
As we've seen with Bruno, heroball only works for so long. Very vulnerable to dips in form, injuries etc.
 

Scroto Baggins

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I read posts like this and then I look at the table and get confused.
Whats confusing about it? Seems pretty straight forward to me. When you are winning with a defensive playstyle that relies mostly on counter attacks, fans are happy to give the defensive style of football a pass. Should those results slide however, much like Jose before him, we could see Conte out the door sooner rather than later.

I feel fans are much more inclined to give managers a pass that play a swash bucking style, even if the results are not going their way. And are a lot quicker to turn on managers who play a more defensive style of football.
 

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To be fair, Conte has done a brilliant job till now. Spurs do face a lot of pressure in almost all games they play in, but isn’t that a hallmark of Conte’s football. He lures teams in to create counter attacking opportunities which they’re able to ruthlessly finish off due to quality of their forwards. He has also managed to somewhat fix Spurs’ achilles heel which is mentality.

Naturally, the sample set is too small and the style of play doesn’t seem sustainable but credit to him on the great start.
 

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Spurs have had a similar set of opening fixtures to Arsenal in terms of quality of opposition played. They managed a last minute point at their top 6 rival, we managed to lose our game the 1 game we played away to a rival.

Next game for both sides is now the North London derby. Should tell us a lot more about where either side are just now.
 

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Whats confusing about it? Seems pretty straight forward to me. When you are winning with a defensive playstyle that relies mostly on counter attacks, fans are happy to give the defensive style of football a pass. Should those results slide however, much like Jose before him, we could see Conte out the door sooner rather than later.

I feel fans are much more inclined to give managers a pass that play a swash bucking style, even if the results are not going their way. And are a lot quicker to turn on managers who play a more defensive style of football.
This to me is a total nonsense. You get the 'he has taken us as far as he can' talk vs the 'these results can't last while we play like this' talk depending on which style of play your manager has (if you are a very short sighted supporter - i.e. most of us). The problem with many supporters today is that they are impatient and want absolutely everything to be perfect at almost every moment - they want their team to play in a style they want them to play and they totally lose the plot if their team loses a match. Conte is building something at Spurs and we are not the finished article at all but you can clearly see his influence on how we are playing and we are becoming an extremely difficult team to play against. I'm delighted with how things are going and I am very optimistic for the future. Would I rather we had Harry Rednapp in who basically told his players to go and run about a bit and do what you want? No I wouldn't even though at times I loved Harry's teams and they way they played. We have won nothing of note for decades and I want us to start winning things. We are much more likely to do this with Conte in charge and I look forward to seeing how this team continues to develop and improve.
 

balaks

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Spurs have had a similar set of opening fixtures to Arsenal in terms of quality of opposition played. They managed a last minute point at their top 6 rival, we managed to lose our game the 1 game we played away to a rival.

Next game for both sides is now the North London derby. Should tell us a lot more about where either side are just now.
Yeah the NLD is going to be very interesting. I may be proven to be completely wrong and a total idiot however I don't have any fear of Arsenal because I think the way we play means that if you really come at us and attack then that will suit us perfectly well and we will destroy you on the counter. Therefore I feel quietly confident we will beat Arsenal.
 

Gazza

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If we are defensive and cynical what way would you describe the way Utd have been playing? Goals scored so far - Spurs 18 (second highest in the league behind City), Utd 8. Something not adding up here hmmm...
What a totally sane and not weird at all rebuttal to that reasonable Madrid fan
 

Scroto Baggins

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Yeah the NLD is going to be very interesting. I may be proven to be completely wrong and a total idiot however I don't have any fear of Arsenal because I think the way we play means that if you really come at us and attack then that will suit us perfectly well and we will destroy you on the counter. Therefore I feel quietly confident we will beat Arsenal.
I think it will be a cagey affair. Arteta is no mug, he wont be foolish enough to commit too many bodies forward allowing Spurs to hit fast on the counter.

Think Arsenal will be happy to keep possession, keep probing, without over committing and see how it's going at half time.
 

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If we are defensive and cynical what way would you describe the way Utd have been playing? Goals scored so far - Spurs 18 (second highest in the league behind City), Utd 8. Something not adding up here hmmm...
It’s pretty easy, Utd don’t have a striker. They are either crocked, past it, or experimental.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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I think it will be a cagey affair. Arteta is no mug, he wont be foolish enough to commit too many bodies forward allowing Spurs to hit fast on the counter.

Think Arsenal will be happy to keep possession, keep probing, without over committing and see how it's going at half time.
he’s a massive mug and that’s exactly what he’ll do
 

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This to me is a total nonsense. You get the 'he has taken us as far as he can' talk vs the 'these results can't last while we play like this' talk depending on which style of play your manager has (if you are a very short sighted supporter - i.e. most of us). The problem with many supporters today is that they are impatient and want absolutely everything to be perfect at almost every moment - they want their team to play in a style they want them to play and they totally lose the plot if their team loses a match. Conte is building something at Spurs and we are not the finished article at all but you can clearly see his influence on how we are playing and we are becoming an extremely difficult team to play against. I'm delighted with how things are going and I am very optimistic for the future. Would I rather we had Harry Rednapp in who basically told his players to go and run about a bit and do what you want? No I wouldn't even though at times I loved Harry's teams and they way they played. We have won nothing of note for decades and I want us to start winning things. We are much more likely to do this with Conte in charge and I look forward to seeing how this team continues to develop and improve.
I suppose the big question is whether he stays or not.

If you have a manager that does some variation of possession based positional play, as is most popular among top sides these days, then you can lose him and replace him pretty seamlessly. There are lots of variations on this but all of Guardiola, Ten Hag, Nagelsmann, Arteta, Xavi, and Potter are in this school and even Tuchel and Klopp to some degree.

The issue with Conte is that very few top managers play his anything like his style nowadays. So if you build a squad to cater to his tactics, with wingbacks and defensive oriented central midfielders and attackers like Richarlison who aren't very technical, and the team trained to play a deep line, have 40% possession, and hit on the break, you are kind of fecked if he leaves.
 

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I mean I'll take your word for it but he has been fantastic (independent of the scoring) whenever I watched him. His ability to drop, receive the ball under pressure and make a productive pass to set up a counter is incredible. His goalscoring is only secondary.

My instinct is that most of the threat Spurs generate in a game is because the opposition pushes forward, makes a mistake, Spurs play it to Kane's feet and he makes something happen.



As we've seen with Bruno, heroball only works for so long. Very vulnerable to dips in form, injuries etc.
When it doesn't work, it's time to fix it. If it's not broken, what's to fix?

It took time and effort to create plan B. Most teams don't even have plan B.
 

Gazza

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Yes thanks for being the second person to point that out in the thread so far.
I mean it’s also just a childish way to go about responding to posts, I don’t think that was pointed out previously
 
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