Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

GoonerGirly

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Yes, that's why I was surprised we did not get a replacement for Partey now, knowing that he has been unreliable. Instead we spent on a luxury in Havertz. It was a strange transfer window.
I think if not for Timber's injury which has soured things, it would be a great transfer window. I think losing both Partey and Xhaka (two of our most experienced players) in one window would be too big a change. Xhaka wanted to go as he was very close to leaving the season before, but Arteta convinced him to stay. I'm not ready to give up on Havertz yet like most people seem to, but at the moment he's looking poor business.
 

GoonerBear

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I'm thinking a Partey replacement would also be high on the list. He's just unable to stay fit and it's suicidal considering how crucial he is to us. Goodness knows how long he'll be out this time.
Partey won't be at Arsenal beyond next summer, of that I am sure. How and if we replace him directly is another matter.

I personally would have loved us to go all in for someone like Barella this summer or next, but the Havertz signing might end up being a block on that.
 

Changeisgood

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I think if not for Timber's injury which has soured things, it would be a great transfer window. I think losing both Partey and Xhaka (two of our most experienced players) in one window would be too big a change. Xhaka wanted to go as he was very close to leaving the season before, but Arteta convinced him to stay. I'm not ready to give up on Havertz yet like most people seem to, but at the moment he's looking poor business.
Timber's injury has definitely soured things up. He was looking like a definite upgrade. I felt at the time we should have replaced Partey first. He was the unreliable element. At least we could have brought in an understudy (ie Caicedo)

I know Xhaka wanted to leave us but we could have flashed a short term contract with a wage increase including a promise to let him move the following year. He really wasn't a problem last year. One of the biggest reasons why we performed well in the league overall.

I am not ready to cast Havertz off either but it doesn't seem like the right purchase under any scenario at the moment and he has had a questionable start which I was afraid of. The biggest problem is his transfer fee and wage. We will have a hard time moving to a plan B with him. Hope it still works out.. You know Arteta will keep him going for a while because Edu and him really banked on this one.
 

TheLord

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Was easily the most overrated pricey player in the PL up until last year. I think the mantle has now been passed on to Sancho and Mudryk.
 

Mike Smalling

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Was easily the most overrated pricey player in the PL up until last year. I think the mantle has now been passed on to Sancho and Mudryk.
Are any of those players overrated? Who exactly rates them?

Overpriced, no question. Overrated, not so sure.
 

Chief123

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Was easily the most overrated pricey player in the PL up until last year. I think the mantle has now been passed on to Sancho and Mudryk.
I would say Havertz is the worst of the lot. At least the other can give you moments even if they are brief and rare. Havertz is like going down to 10 men.
 

CassiusClaymore

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I would say Havertz is the worst of the lot. At least the other can give you moments even if they are brief and rare. Havertz is like going down to 10 men.
I was watching the game on Sunday with an Arsenal supporting mate and commented it was effectively 10 v 10 with us having Martial and them having Havertz.
 

Rockets Redglare

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I was watching the game on Sunday with an Arsenal supporting mate and commented it was effectively 10 v 10 with us having Martial and them having Havertz.
At least Havertz can run around and cause some issues with a bit of movement though. We’d be just as effective with a mannequin up front.
 

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I’m still not sure what he’s really good at.

The fact that Chelsea managed to recoup all their money is impressive, for lack of a better word.
 

Chief123

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At least Havertz can run around and cause some issues with a bit of movement though. We’d be just as effective with a mannequin up front.
He can’t though. That’s the thing. You just don’t know he’s playing until he misses a sitter. He’s got the intensity and energy of a dead turtle.
 

Zehner

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He was invisible. He had a big miss where he comically tried to volley but missed the ball completely right in front of the goal. Apart from that, didn't see him until he was subbed off.
I've seen so many times that a player was criticized as a 'nothing player' or 'being invisible' in here when he actually had a decent game that I can't help but being a bit skeptical when those phrases come up despite the statistics looking okayish. Most fans in here rather see a player sabotaging his own team by trying the spectacular stuff all the time instead of just 'invisibly' doing the simple things right. If there's a scene like you mentioned on top of that, it usually outshines everything else. I'm still optimistic it'll work out eventually, Havertz and Arteta are principally a great fit :)
 

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I've seen so many times that a player was criticized as a 'nothing player' or 'being invisible' in here when he actually had a decent game that I can't help but being a bit skeptical when those phrases come up despite the statistics looking okayish. Most fans in here rather see a player sabotaging his own team by trying the spectacular stuff all the time instead of just 'invisibly' doing the simple things right. If there's a scene like you mentioned on top of that, it usually outshines everything else. I'm still optimistic it'll work out eventually, Havertz and Arteta are principally a great fit :)
He was also the player who gave the ball away with Arsenal fully committed to the attack which caught his team out and led to United's goal. I forgot to mention that part. I do hear you though re; the caf's tendency to downplay performances of certain players. I've often been baffled by the overall consensus when I've just watched the same game as everyone else. Havertz really was very poor in this game though.
 
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Rooney in Paris

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I've seen so many times that a player was criticized as a 'nothing player' or 'being invisible' in here when he actually had a decent game that I can't help but being a bit skeptical when those phrases come up despite the statistics looking okayish. Most fans in here rather see a player sabotaging his own team by trying the spectacular stuff all the time instead of just 'invisibly' doing the simple things right. If there's a scene like you mentioned on top of that, it usually outshines everything else. I'm still optimistic it'll work out eventually, Havertz and Arteta are principally a great fit :)
You're not much of a "let's actually watch the games and draw conclusions" kind of fan are you?
 

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You're not much of a "let's actually watch the games and draw conclusions" kind of fan are you?
I am but each weekend, there 39 games in the top 4 leagues so I think we'll agree it is hard to watch them all ;) And as I said, my "judgment" is actually based on games I watched. I saw players have tremendous games (e. g. Thiago in the UCL final against Paris) and then read how people said he's only easy on the eye and has no end product. Most football fans simply have no idea what they're talking about and stats provide an incomplete but at least objective picture.
 

Rooney in Paris

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I am but each weekend, there 39 games in the top 4 leagues so I think we'll agree it is hard to watch them all ;) And as I said, my "judgment" is actually based on games I watched. I saw players have tremendous games (e. g. Thiago in the UCL final against Paris) and then read how people said he's only easy on the eye and has no end product. Most football fans simply have no idea what they're talking about and stats provide an incomplete but at least objective picture.
Stats without context are useless. You're putting aside the views of pretty much everyone that watched that game and found him wank cos of some random inconclusive stats because it doesn't fit your dogmatic position that Havertz is a good player.
 

Zehner

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Stats without context are useless. You're putting aside the views of pretty much everyone that watched that game and found him wank cos of some random inconclusive stats because it doesn't fit your dogmatic position that Havertz is a good player.
Nah, don't think so
 

BayernFan87

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I've seen so many times that a player was criticized as a 'nothing player' or 'being invisible' in here when he actually had a decent game that I can't help but being a bit skeptical when those phrases come up despite the statistics looking okayish. Most fans in here rather see a player sabotaging his own team by trying the spectacular stuff all the time instead of just 'invisibly' doing the simple things right. If there's a scene like you mentioned on top of that, it usually outshines everything else. I'm still optimistic it'll work out eventually, Havertz and Arteta are principally a great fit :)
You only took a look at the statistics but still mean to tell many people on here who watched the game, that they are all wrong?
I watched the whole game, Havertz was the worst player on the pitch (well Martial wasn't much better) and the run in the scene where he didn't get a penalty was probably his only good action.
 

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You only took a look at the statistics but still mean to tell many people on here who watched the game, that they are all wrong?
I watched the whole game, Havertz was the worst player on the pitch (well Martial wasn't much better) and the run in the scene where he didn't get a penalty was probably his only good action.
I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm saying that I'm skeptical that they're right / that I would agree with them if I'd seen the game as well. I rate @WeePat's opinion in general for example so I beleive that he's been generally poor, however I'm also pretty sure that the reactions in this thread are still pretty over the top. It's just that there are players who have it much more difficult with many fans, comparably to Kroos' playstyle in Germany for instance.
 

BayernFan87

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...Most football fans simply have no idea what they're talking about and stats provide an incomplete but at least objective picture.
Well we're glad to have an expert and statistic nerd like you on here who can judge a players performance just by looking at his pass accuracy (and completely neglecting the type of passes, the total (forward) distance covered, the chances/shots created, etc.)

I remember when Havertz went to Chelsea and quite some german fans on here were a bit skeptical but you were absolutely sure, that he would be a world class player.
So far you seem to be the football fan who has no idea what he's talking about.
 

Rooney in Paris

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I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm saying that I'm skeptical that they're right / that I would agree with them if I'd seen the game as well. I rate @WeePat's opinion in general for example so I beleive that he's been generally poor, however I'm also pretty sure that the reactions in this thread are still pretty over the top. It's just that there are players who have it much more difficult with many fans, comparably to Kroos' playstyle in Germany for instance.
But, just to reiterate, you have no idea what you're talking about because you haven't watched it. As opposed to the tons of people who have, and who have been unanimous in their assessment.
 

GoonerGirly

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I’m still not sure what he’s really good at.
It's a bit funny because when it became clear Arteta wanted him as Xhaka's replacement as the 8, most people questioned his defensive/off the ball qualities. Funnily enough he's been better than expected in this regard but has looked woeful going forward and hasn't gelled with our attack.
I think the would-be penalty incident is what Arteta wants to see from him - to carry the ball and come storming into the box from midfield. He should have 2-3 goals for us by now but has lost his composure and looks devoid of confidence. He is getting into those positions at least which gives me some hope that he will come good.
 

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Well we're glad to have an expert and statistic nerd like you on here who can judge a players performance just by looking at his pass accuracy (and completely neglecting the type of passes, the total (forward) distance covered, the chances/shots created, etc.)

I remember when Havertz went to Chelsea and quite some german fans on here were a bit skeptical but you were absolutely sure, that he would be a world class player.
So far you seem to be the football fan who has no idea what he's talking about.
I'm sorry but the bolded is nonsense. I never rated his performance, I just wanted to know why people think he had a bad game and when the usual phrases came up remained skeptical. I have no opinion on his performance.

And I definitely weren't "absolutely sure that he would be a world class player" as I think every transfer can go belly up completely unexpectedly and didn't rate Chelsea's then manager Lampard at all. I didn't even say Sancho was a success despite thinking he was a world class player already because I wasn't convinced United would get the best out of him.


But, just to reiterate, you have no idea what you're talking about because you haven't watched it. As opposed to the tons of people who have, and who have been unanimous in their assessment.
Yes. I have no idea how he played, just decided I don't blindly buy what people post in this thread.
 

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It's a bit funny because when it became clear Arteta wanted him as Xhaka's replacement as the 8, most people questioned his defensive/off the ball qualities. Funnily enough he's been better than expected in this regard but has looked woeful going forward and hasn't gelled with our attack.
I think the would-be penalty incident is what Arteta wants to see from him - to carry the ball and come storming into the box from midfield. He should have 2-3 goals for us by now but has lost his composure and looks devoid of confidence. He is getting into those positions at least which gives me some hope that he will come good.
You could well be right. I don’t watch Chelsea or Arsenal regularly, so I’m probably not the best judge of his abilities.
 

ThierryHenry14

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It's a bit funny because when it became clear Arteta wanted him as Xhaka's replacement as the 8, most people questioned his defensive/off the ball qualities. Funnily enough he's been better than expected in this regard but has looked woeful going forward and hasn't gelled with our attack.
I think the would-be penalty incident is what Arteta wants to see from him - to carry the ball and come storming into the box from midfield. He should have 2-3 goals for us by now but has lost his composure and looks devoid of confidence. He is getting into those positions at least which gives me some hope that he will come good.
To be fair his performance, not just output, has been shocking so far. I understand he needs time to get used to the movement of his new teammates (especially Martinelli) and also the tactics, but if he doesn't improve quickly then other players on the bench do deserve a chance.
 

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Was he also under hitting every pass and shot for Chelsea ? I mean when he actually manages to make contact with the ball.
It's so annoying how our players are forced to wait half a second longer to receive his passes compared to everyone else.
 

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Was he also under hitting every pass and shot for Chelsea ? I mean when he actually manages to make contact with the ball.
It's so annoying how our players are forced to wait half a second longer to receive his passes compared to everyone else.
He was generally pretty good for us in this aspect. Especially when he had developed a good understanding with someone. His connection with Werner and Mount was really good. He also developed instant chemistry with Felix.

I honestly think it's a matter of time for Havertz at Arsenal, the potential is there but it's whether Arteta can persist through the teething issues and growing pains. The pressure to drop him grows louder by the game, especially when Vieira keeps having this big of an impact off the bench.

 
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GoonerBear

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Was he also under hitting every pass and shot for Chelsea ? I mean when he actually manages to make contact with the ball.
It's so annoying how our players are forced to wait half a second longer to receive his passes compared to everyone else.
Conviction, or lack of it, is a good way to describe his performances so far. Like you say, everything just gives the impression of being tentative, his passing, his shooting, even his movement.

Vieira's 2 cameos gives us a small sample size of how the role should be played, playing with pace, with courage, with a bit of intensity, a willingness to look for the ball and also to run in behind and receive it, plus a couple of quality assists.

Might be easier for Vieira to come in and find the space when the game is a wee bit stretched, so I acknowledge that. If so, perhaps that's the way Havertz should be bed in and allowing him time to regain some confidence.
 

awop

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Conviction, or lack of it, is a good way to describe his performances so far. Like you say, everything just gives the impression of being tentative, his passing, his shooting, even his movement.

Vieira's 2 cameos gives us a small sample size of how the role should be played, playing with pace, with courage, with a bit of intensity, a willingness to look for the ball and also to run in behind and receive it, plus a couple of quality assists.

Might be easier for Vieira to come in and find the space when the game is a wee bit stretched
, so I acknowledge that. If so, perhaps that's the way Havertz should be bed in and allowing him time to regain some confidence.
Definitely the case. Last year was his introduction to the league and at "only 30M" not much was expected. This year in his limited minutes he has really shown what he can do. But i think he's still pretty far from a league start. It was only a few weeks ago that you could hear the coaches on training videos telling him about the same issues: he watches the game too much, doesn't get involved enough. The fact that Martinelli likes to play more with him than Havertz is also a big bonus to his adaptation.
I hope they both get their confidence up quickly and we can get a better version of Havertz because right now it's just sad.
 

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Definitely the case. Last year was his introduction to the league and at "only 30M" not much was expected. This year in his limited minutes he has really shown what he can do. But i think he's still pretty far from a league start. It was only a few weeks ago that you could hear the coaches on training videos telling him about the same issues: he watches the game too much, doesn't get involved enough. The fact that Martinelli likes to play more with him than Havertz is also a big bonus to his adaptation.
I hope they both get their confidence up quickly and we can get a better version of Havertz because right now it's just sad.
The sad thing is just like Mudryk in Chelsea, he will be watched under the microscope every game. He will be under lots of pressure from the press and the fans.
 

GoonerGirly

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To be fair his performance, not just output, has been shocking so far. I understand he needs time to get used to the movement of his new teammates (especially Martinelli) and also the tactics, but if he doesn't improve quickly then other players on the bench do deserve a chance.
Yes I agree though I still feel 4 games is not that much time yet. He hasn't exactly been a liability, at least. If not for Saka's horror pass vs Fulham we might be 12 points from 12. Arteta has subbed him off twice so I'm sure he's wanting more from him. I do think the damage from Chelsea is still very raw and Arteta has a big task on his hands.
 
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Changeisgood

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Arsenal took a huge gamble on Havertz. This was a 35 mil transfer that we should have backed away from at 65 mil. Whether this works or not, it was a risky idea. If he was to be an automatic starter than it's fine, but now we have potentially more problems than we started with. At 35 mil we would still have the luxury of making the player a sub, but with that salary on top of it, he has to come good. The pressure was already on him from day one, so there is not much of a grace period. I still have some faith that it could work out but it's far from a certainty. Rice was also overpriced, but I was pretty certain he would nail down his place in the starting 11. On top of it Havertz' salary risks upsetting the balance. How can you rationalize Nelli at almost half the wage at the moment?

Interesting to see Vieira grow a set so far this season and has looked pretty good in the limited time he has had. And then we still have ESR. Havertz doesn't have too long to settle in.
 

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So there's finally a compilation of all the plays he was involved in:


That's by no means a "poor" or even "terrible" performance. Nothing special or particularly good either but solid, especially when you consider that it was his fourth game or so. He keeps things simple, retains possession well and works against the ball. Many takes in this thread are over the top.
 

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He hasn’t been great but also not half as bad as people make out and it’s been four games, which is a ridiculous sample on which to judge any player. Arsenal fans love to moan and rival fans love to banter but it’s all pretty overblown. Let’s talk in January.
 

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So there's finally a compilation of all the plays he was involved in:


That's by no means a "poor" or even "terrible" performance. Nothing special or particularly good either but solid, especially when you consider that it was his fourth game or so. He keeps things simple, retains possession well and works against the ball. Many takes in this thread are over the top.
:lol: I'll give it to you, you're relentless.

I guess the irony of the bolded eludes you.
 

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So there's finally a compilation of all the plays he was involved in:

That's by no means a "poor" or even "terrible" performance. Nothing special or particularly good either but solid, especially when you consider that it was his fourth game or so. He keeps things simple, retains possession well and works against the ball. Many takes in this thread are over the top.
I didn't watch the whole game but from what I saw he was noticeable in three moments and other than that was completely anonymous. The three moments were the horrible miss, the intercepted pass that led to a goal and a dive. If that doesn't constitute to a bad performance then I don't know what will. You are very generous with your rating here.
 

ThierryHenry

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Haven't seen the game. On paper, it looks like Arsenal had played themselves into more goal scoring opportunities (17 to 10 shots, 2.27 to 0.94 xG), dominated possession slightly (55%) and Havertz personal statistics read as if he had an average but not terrible game (88% passing accuracy, 2 shots, 1 key pass, 5 interceptions).

Was he so bad outside of those statistics or just the often cited "nothing player"?
I was at the ground, and I can't remember the last time I saw a player hide from the ball more than Havertz did in the first half. Constantly moving to make sure he was marked out of the game and couldn't be passed to. When he did get it, he panicked to get rid of it as quickly as he could, hence the very lazy pass that lead to the first United goal. The second half was somwhat better, with the highlight being the run for the penalty that was overturned for VAR.

That we dominated the game with that gap in the midfield was testament to the rest of the team. It's also now two games in a row where the team has dramatically improved as soon as he's been taken off.