How long should it take for a manager to embed their tactical philosophy?

fastwalker

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This is a genuine question here, not a back door way of asking whether we have the right coach or not.

Any coach needs a reasonable amount of time to communicate their ideas and embed their tactical philosophy or system. Jose majored on defensive organisation and counter-attacking. I would say it took players about two years to fully adapt to his style. As we know, Jose had some success, but was ultimately dismissed.

Ole's style, as best as I can tell, relied on speed in transition and counter-attacking. Players seemed to adapt to this almost almost immediately and Ole did not really depart from this style for his two and a half years at Old Trafford.

Erik Ten Hag meanwhile, focused on pressing intesity, tactical discipline and possession based football. This approach took around two years to embed, with variable results. Ten Hag was moderately successful in terms of league position and cup success.

For Amorim, his footballing philosphy is possession based and rooted in a 3-4-3 formation. As it stands, Amorim does not appear to have the players he needs to play in that system. If he stays and is able to acquire the personnel, how long should he be given to embed that system, get results and prove that it can work?

Thoughts?
 
‘Tactical philosophy’ = I can’t create solutions
 
The answer may seem counterintuitive but a couple weeks are always enough to understand it and start applying on the pitch... after that, it's all rinse-and-repeat while convincing your players it is the right path to follow (that's also why early results matter and help them really buy into any "new" system).
 
Guarantee the answer to this now will be wildly different to what it would have been if the question was asked on the day Amorim was hired.
 
Most if not all good managers see results within a few months, but we're not honest enough with ourselves to admit that.
 
For all we know Amorim has already done that and it simply doesn't work in the Premier League at all.
 
My philosophy is that good footballers are good and bad footballers are bad.

That will be 399 dollars. I only accept BitCoin.
 
How long is a piece of string? Depends on the manager, the philosophy and the players. Big Sam could come in and have us brexiting by the weekend.
 
Maybe two months to get it going, then another month or two to deliver it in games? If it takes longer one has to imagine it's too complicated. I think Ruben has implemented his as best he can with this squad but it's not proving very effective. The only question now is if he needs different players to see results or if he will adjust it to the realities of the premier league. Hopefully it's a bit of both.
 
That depends entirely on what that philosophy is no? If you asked this United side to play like Klopps Liverpool or Peps City then I think the answer would be "never". I think if you are asking a team to make some tweaks to the way they play and the players are capable of it then it won't take long at all.

In Amorims case he needs players who can run, dribble with the ball and take risks going forward and we have very very few of those players. So its not a case of the players not understanding his system, its just that the players we have can't do what he wants.
 
I think he has embeded it and it only takes a couple of months. The players know whats required we play the system players know where they are supposed to be and what they are supposed to do.

Its not working for a number of reasons but that does not mean he has not already embedded it.

By the way our issues goes well beyond system. We have players who really struggle with the mental aspect of the game and are poor situationally. We have players not physically equipped to deal with the demands on the league especially in midfield.

As for the system or phylisophy we have serious skill issues in key positions.

CFs who don’t score goals both are poor in the air and one has a really poor touch, balance issues and struggles to hold the ball up.

Attacking midfielders / forwards who are young and inexperienced and as a result struggle to be consistent (this goes for Amad as well as Garnacho)

General lack of goal scorers in the squad

GK that is prone to mental lapses in high pressure games and generally lacks technical skills to make certain saves

CMs who don’t have legs or stamina and lack physicality. The ones that do have stamina don’t have the technical skills

At CB again the experienced players De Ligt and Martinez stuggles to keep fit and Maguire lacks pace, the players who actually have the skillset we need Yoro and Heaven are inexperienced one hasn’t even hit double figures in senior games.

There isn’t a system or philosophy that can account for all of these deficiencies.
 
Most clubs seem to get a new manager bounce but not us.

Realistically I think 6 months to start to see some kind of improvement is reasonable. It's building a football team not the fecking pyramids of Giza.
 
Adz_99 said:
Most clubs seem to get a new manager bounce but not us.

Realistically I think 6 months to start to see some kind of improvement is reasonable. It's building a football team not the fecking pyramids of Giza.
Click to expand...

Most clubs have at least 1 competent CF
 
pcaming said:
Most if not all good managers see results within a few months, but we're not honest enough with ourselves to admit that.
Click to expand...

Yeah depending on the abilities of the good manager, it's anywhere between a few weeks and few months. Even some of the most extreme managers like Van Gaal, Zeman, Bielsa or Rangnick don't need a lot of time, now it may fail for a range of reasons but you will quickly see what they coach.
 
There should be some signs of progress/style within 2 months. Maybe 3 if there's no pre season.

Given the short lifespan of managers (even at clubs that are doing well), there should really be some signs of positivity at the 3-4 month period.
Cassidy said:
I think he has embeded it and it only takes a couple of months. The players know whats required we play the system players know where they are supposed to be and what they are supposed to do.

Its not working for a number of reasons but that does not mean he has not already embedded it.

By the way our issues goes well beyond system. We have players who really struggle with the mental aspect of the game and are poor situationally. We have players not physically equipped to deal with the demands on the league especially in midfield.

As for the system or phylisophy we have serious skill issues in key positions.

CFs who don’t score goals both are poor in the air and one has a really poor touch, balance issues and struggles to hold the ball up.

Attacking midfielders / forwards who are young and inexperienced and as a result struggle to be consistent (this goes for Amad as well as Garnacho)

General lack of goal scorers in the squad

GK that is prone to mental lapses in high pressure games and generally lacks technical skills to make certain saves

CMs who don’t have legs or stamina and lack physicality. The ones that do have stamina don’t have the technical skills

At CB again the experienced players De Ligt and Martinez stuggles to keep fit and Maguire lacks pace, the players who actually have the skillset we need Yoro and Heaven are inexperienced one hasn’t even hit double figures in senior games.

There isn’t a system or philosophy that can account for all of these deficiencies.
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We currently have a formation that is struggling to optimise the ability of three of our best players, or at least the players with the most potential. Mainoo, Garnacho and Amad should be key but they're always going to struggle in a 343.

I've been saying it since the defeat against Newcastle but the manager should have taken a short term view this season and rebuilt in the summer. A decent manager makes something of a something with this squad. Dalot (for all his faults), Maguire, Yoro, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Casemiro (even at his age), Fernandes, Mainoo, Amad, Garnacho. Throw in De Ligt and Martinez (on the off chance they stay fit) and you're not a million miles off (again, in the short term).

Ten Hag beat Brighton, Newcastle and city with Bruno as a false nine. That's the direction, Amorim should have gone in.

It was obvious after those Newcastle and Wolves defeats that the tactics weren't working. He should have adapted and his failure to do will mean he'll be very lucky to stay beyond the summer. If the argument is that we need to sell 75%+ of the squad, I still have no idea why he didn't take the pragmatic approach for a group of players that don't need to learn "his way".
 
Tbh I see Amorim's tactical philosophy fairly firmly embedded in the club at the moment. It just doesn't work and fails miserably.
 
Depends on the group of players willingness. If the players don't buy into it then you'll probably fail to get what you want onto the pitch.

Easier to embed your philosophy on a group at a smaller club where players have to earn their place in team, desire to improve etc. problem at Utd is, most players have already made it by getting here, being told they've got to play differently to what got them here often goes down like a lead balloon.
 
I think its these moronic players here, or some of them affecting the others. How is it after 12 years we are no closer to the Premier title than any other year and in fact getting worse by the year at the moment. Why do these players turn to shit as soon as they sign?

Ole said it Mourinho said it TH and Amorim about the fitness levels of the players. What is it that is wrong with them? Is it the high wages and long contracts, so I dont need to train? The novice youngsters being given 5-10 times the salaries they were on at the last team, so they think they have made it? The yesteryear superstar here for the final hurrah on big money? Contracts so long that Shaw is still here and still has time on his side. Jones and Martial were the same as well. Injury prone and here for years and years.

The strategy, or 'philosophy' doesnt make a difference to us winning the big prizes either. We have had counter, possession, pressing tactics. 442, 4141, 4222, 4231, 343 formations and everything in between and no one has got a tune out of the hundred or so players, and it all seems to revolve around half assed attitude, mediocre application, fitness and injuries.

I hope Berrada sticks to his 'if they are not good enough after 2 years they will be moved on' mantra.
 
maximus419 said:
Depends on the group of players willingness. If the players don't buy into it then you'll probably fail to get what you want onto the pitch.

Easier to embed your philosophy on a group at a smaller club where players have to earn their place in team, desire to improve etc. problem at Utd is, most players have already made it by getting here, being told they've got to play differently to what got them here often goes down like a lead balloon.
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We need to stop spreading this nonsense. The players have enough issues, we don't need to add false narratives to them.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
There should be some signs of progress/style within 2 months. Maybe 3 if there's no pre season.

Given the short lifespan of managers (even at clubs that are doing well), there should really be some signs of positivity at the 3-4 month period.

We currently have a formation that is struggling to optimise the ability of three of our best players, or at least the players with the most potential. Mainoo, Garnacho and Amad should be key but they're always going to struggle in a 343.

I've been saying it since the defeat against Newcastle but the manager should have taken a short term view this season and rebuilt in the summer. A decent manager makes something of a something with this squad. Dalot (for all his faults), Maguire, Yoro, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Casemiro (even at his age), Fernandes, Mainoo, Amad, Garnacho. Throw in De Ligt and Martinez (on the off chance they stay fit) and you're not a million miles off (again, in the short term).

Ten Hag beat Brighton, Newcastle and city with Bruno as a false nine. That's the direction, Amorim should have gone in.

It was obvious after those Newcastle and Wolves defeats that the tactics weren't working. He should have adapted and his failure to do will mean he'll be very lucky to stay beyond the summer. If the argument is that we need to sell 75%+ of the squad, I still have no idea why he didn't take the pragmatic approach for a group of players that don't need to learn "his way".
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Amad has has his best spell at the club under Amorim. Not sure he is the best example to use.

Garnacho is a young player who is actually playing better this season under Amorim than he was earlier in the season under ETH. Issue is though that like a lot of young players at his age consistency in decision making

Mainoo has had a poor season and was struggling to repeat his form of last season before Amorims arrival. He is a young player who is only in his second full season one which he has constant repeated injuries. Sophomore slumps are nor unsual. Sure Amorim needs to do better with him but I think everyone is jumping the gun here.

They are also not our 3 best players we have Bruno for one and if they were it would highlight the issue we have with the squad. Over reliance on inexperienced players who at this stage in their careers can be expected to be inconsistent.

Sure maybe he could have gone with the false 9 (he did at times).

My post was not about trying to litigate the system. Like I said it has some issues. My post was to point out 2 things

1 The system has already been embedded we play it, players know their roles etc

2 Our issues are not system related I listed plenty of issues that need fixing before any system is viable

Yes Amorim could have tweaked and changed some things for marginal gains (used Bruno as a false 9 and remove all creativity from midfield etc) the false 9 worked well under ETH because we also had McT as a box crasher so Bruno could drop and create. But anyway like I was saying we could have made changes and made marginal gains and done better in both the league maybe a top half finish.
Also we could have won Europa League with some tweaks too.

Those things are neither here nor there to actually having a viable system under any manager.

The state of the squad now all you can do is make compromises and hope and pray that your not going up against a side with a physically dominate midfield and that Bruno can produce some magic. It used to be Bruno or Rashford magic but unfortunately he has been awol for 2 years
 
Doesn't matter how long it takes, managers should have the ability to change tactics depending on who you're playing. It shouldn't be a one size fits all.
 
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