Is music in a terminal decline?

Pogue Mahone

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Actually, I was going to start a thread on this (in a different forum, obviously!). For various complicated reasons to do with the state of the music industry and the way people interact with music these days I do think music is on a steep downward trend. Will there ever be another Bowie, Beatles or Dylan? I was talking to a friend about this the other day and couldn't come up with a single act that came to prominence in the last decade who could be mentioned in the same breath as musical greats of the past. Better stuff out there if you push things out a couple of decades but you there's a definite downwards trend. Music's got so fragmented and under so much pressure to appeal to ever-diminishing attention spans you're never going to get anything to compete with the great albums of the past. Lots of "good" stuff but nothing "great". Not any more.

Presumably though your friend is of the same vintage as you? Talk to people in their 20s now and I'm sure they'll tell you all sorts of great music that either you weren't aware of, or just simply isn't the kind of thing that appeals to you, but does them, in the same way Bowie was an abonination to a generation rasied on Big Band and skiffle. I'll definitely agree that the fragmented nature of the intustry makes it much harder for a true great to emerge into such stardom, but that doesn't remotely mean there aren't any great song writers, performers or innovators out there. Not in the slightest.

The thing is, I don't think there are any young music afficionados who would honestly claim that they can see the next David Bowie out there right now. Or seen anyone coming through over the past 10 years or so who would even run him close. I get the impression that people like him are still held on a pedestal, no matter what generation you're from.

It's as though there was a golden era of popular music in the 60s through to the 80s, with a gradual decline since. Radiohead probably being the most recent band who can make any claim to greatness on a truly global scale, with no obvious successor waiting in the wings. Obviously, the talent is out there but for various complicated reasons they're not being given the money or artistic freedom needed to produce a truly great piece of art. Could be wrong though. Be interested to hear some thoughts from young 'uns.
 
Artists like Bowie and Beatles are referred to as 'greats' cos they were endlessly canonized in the music press by editors who grew up when those artists were at their creative peak. There are loads of bands who could claim to be essential from the last decade, they just need a few years of Rolling Stone lists for it to seep into the general consciousness.
 
It's likely that future generations will hold up in very high esteem artists that we may not expect. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years people were talking about Kanye West in the same league as David Bowie.
 
It's likely that future generations will hold up in very high esteem artists that we may not expect. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years people were talking about Kanye West in the same league as David Bowie.
His ego has gotten in the way of his talent nowadays which is a shame.
 
I think greater accessibility to a greater number of artists has meant that the praise and attention one particular band or artist receives nowadays is diluted. And as a result I don't think it's possible nowadays for any one act to have the same influence as those of the past, but I don't think there has been a decline in actual quality.
 
Forgive me Pogue, but the notion that things are on the decline seems quite common with you on a number of topics. Maybe they are... or maybe it's in your head.
 
Nah, there's always been shit music being made and there's always been quality music being made. Commercial music is often awful though, but that's largely down to superficial crap being easier to market.

Forgive me Pogue, but the notion that things are on the decline seems quite common with you on a number of topics. Maybe they are... or maybe it's in your head.
Maybe Pogue's in decline.
 
I could make a load of threads about stuff that isn't in decline. I'm writing this on a telephone that I can carry in my pocket. Which is incredible. Food, standard of living, the health of the nation, entertainment in general. Almost everything is getting better and better. That kind of goes without saying and isn't really an interesting discussion though.
 
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I could make a load of thread about stuff that isn't in decline. I'm writing this on a telephone that I can carry in my pocket. Which is incredible. Food, standard of living, the health of the nation, entertainment in general. Almost everything is getting better and better. That kind of goes without saying and isn't really an interesting discussion though.

Fair enough.
 
There's still loads of great music out there, it's just that it's sort of on the peripheral to the shit we're subjected to in the charts.
 
I'd say the Arctic Monkeys are fairly big. They'll definitely end up being 'canonised' by the the media (they've been since they started off to be honest)
 
I think it's important for the thread to remember just how brilliant and innovative Bowie was.



I could make a load of thread about stuff that isn't in decline. I'm writing this on a telephone that I can carry in my pocket. Which is incredible. Food, standard of living, the health of the nation, entertainment in general. Almost everything is getting better and better. That kind of goes without saying and isn't really an interesting discussion though.

But most of that doesn't have quite the emotional attachment music does. People tend to associate music with their youth, specifically their formative years and heyday. It has a big impact on their identity. Hence you'll find that most people's favorite stuff tends to always be things released before they were 40. There are probably few octogenarians with the same reverence for Bowie.
 
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Music these days doesn't really have any meaning. It is all about making songs that are catchy (but not great, meaningful, inspiring etc) that will get played in nightclubs, pubs and parties which will (hopefully for the singer) get their song to number one for a while and get their videos views. Then after a month or two these songs are forgotten to be replaced by new songs that are played in pubs and nightclubs etc and they will never be mentioned again.
 
Music these days doesn't really have any meaning. It is all about making songs that are catchy (but not great, meaningful, inspiring etc) that will get played in nightclubs, pubs and parties which will (hopefully for the singer) get their song to number one for a while and get their videos views. Then after a month or two these songs are forgotten to be replaced by new songs that are played in pubs and nightclubs etc and they will never be mentioned again.
Well, you're talking about popular chart music there, to be fair. There's still lots of great bands out there. Arcade Fire, Fleet Foxes, The War on Drugs, to name a few.

I've just discovered a band called Lucius too, who are bloody amazing. Like a weird mix of trance, country music, and indie rock.
 
The thing is, I don't think there are any young music afficionados who would honestly claim that they can see the next David Bowie out there right now. Or seen anyone coming through over the past 10 years or so who would even run him close. I get the impression that people like him are still held on a pedestal, no matter what generation you're from.

It's as though there was a golden era of popular music in the 60s through to the 80s, with a gradual decline since. Radiohead probably being the most recent band who can make any claim to greatness on a truly global scale, with no obvious successor waiting in the wings. Obviously, the talent is out there but for various complicated reasons they're not being given the money or artistic freedom needed to produce a truly great piece of art. Could be wrong though. Be interested to hear some thoughts from young 'uns.

Music in Britain since the 60s has had two occasions when the fundamental model of how the music worked changed. The first was in the mid to late 70s when punk happened, the next was in the late 80s when acid house landed.

As well as sounding sonically different to what went before, the very nature of the industry changed. It changed the very paradigm for how music is created, which in turn had an impact on how the music sounded. It wasn't simply different chords or lyrics. How it was made and consumed changed.

Previously a small number of talented people produced the music that was consumed by many. Bowie, Beatles, Stones, Dylan, etc. However punk subverted this concept with the notion of DIY. This wasn't some elitist activity any more, it was something anyone could do if they got together with their mates. It liberated music. In terms of talent it was incomparable to the great singer songwriters, but that wasn't the point. The point was that this was the music of the masses. It was the quantity produced, not its quality. It was democratic.

The trouble is you still needed a set of instruments, you still needed to play gigs and you still needed a record deal. So it petered out.

Then the trick repeated when acid house landed. This time it was even easier, you could write music in your bedroom alone, you didn't need any musical talent, you didn't need to be good looking, with a good voice or confident on stage. At this point the concept of DIY music stuck.

The most interesting example to date came with the birth of british hardcore (old skool) in the early 90s. You had a situation where one person would write a track with some essentially arbitrary motif - a particular noise, a childs cartoon sample, a notable drum sound - then upon hearing that dozens or even thousands of people would write rip offs of the track in their room the very next day. The following week all those tracks would be played in clubs and raves up and down the country, and each one would produce a spin off. To put the scale of it in context, I personally have about 20,000 old skool tracks from 91 to 94, and I doubt that's even 10% of what's out there. It really was music creation on an unprecedented scale.

And so like any system, ultra rapid reproduction and rebirth set about a process of musical evolution on an accelerated timescale. It also created a parallel paradigm for how music can work within a scene. As well as than one talented person or band pushing boundaries, thousands of people contribute to the evolution of the music which moves in a seemingly random, homogenous fashion. The quality within the musical genre comes not from what one person can do, but where the collective goes.

The last piece of the puzzle was mp3s and particularly iPods. Before those, the only way to digest that much music was at clubs or on the radio. However they allowed people to carry the 20,000 tracks of their choice with them. That eliminated the final barrier stopping that type of musical paradigm from being easily digestible by the majority. Indeed since then the various new digital techs has if anything sped the whole thing up.

Music can be thought about in more ways that just sonics. When you think about it the biggest change in the history of music was almost certainly when music could first be recorded and replayed, which only really took place in a meaningful way a hundred years ago. In the same way post-modernist art was ushered in by the ability to reprint pictures, musical change was propagated by that same ability to reproduce. The next biggest change for me was the re-democratisation of music in the 70s and 80s, with musical worth being measured by the movement of the many, rather than the talent of the few.

So we may not get people doing what Bowie did again. The conditions aren't right for it. However if you look past a talented bloke making good tunes and consider the spectacular change in music evolution in the post-war era I would argue that we're just now entering a golden age of music, the inevitable logical conclusion of recorded music.
 
Music these days doesn't really have any meaning. It is all about making songs that are catchy (but not great, meaningful, inspiring etc) that will get played in nightclubs, pubs and parties which will (hopefully for the singer) get their song to number one for a while and get their videos views. Then after a month or two these songs are forgotten to be replaced by new songs that are played in pubs and nightclubs etc and they will never be mentioned again.
This is the old "Lady Gaga isn't as good as the Beatles so modern music sucks" fallacy.
 
Well, you're talking about popular chart music there, to be fair. There's still lots of great bands out there. Arcade Fire, Fleet Foxes, The War on Drugs, to name a few.

I've just discovered a band called Lucius too, who are bloody amazing. Like a weird mix of trance, country music, and indie rock.
I agree that there are lots of great bands and musicians out there. However the reason I was speaking about chart music was because It is the most prominent.
 
Music in Britain since the 60s has had two occasions when the fundamental model of how the music worked changed. The first was in the mid to late 70s when punk happened, the next was in the late 80s when acid house landed.

As well as sounding sonically different to what went before, the very nature of the industry changed. It changed the very paradigm for how music is created, which in turn had an impact on how the music sounded. It wasn't simply different chords or lyrics. How it was made and consumed changed.

Previously a small number of talented people produced the music that was consumed by many. Bowie, Beatles, Stones, Dylan, etc. However punk subverted this concept with the notion of DIY. This wasn't some elitist activity any more, it was something anyone could do if they got together with their mates. It liberated music. In terms of talent it was incomparable to the great singer songwriters, but that wasn't the point. The point was that this was the music of the masses. It was the quantity produced, not its quality. It was democratic.

The trouble is you still needed a set of instruments, you still needed to play gigs and you still needed a record deal. So it petered out.

Then the trick repeated when acid house landed. This time it was even easier, you could write music in your bedroom alone, you didn't need any musical talent, you didn't need to be good looking, with a good voice or confident on stage. At this point the concept of DIY music stuck.

The most interesting example to date came with the birth of british hardcore (old skool) in the early 90s. You had a situation where one person would write a track with some essentially arbitrary motif - a particular noise, a childs cartoon sample, a notable drum sound - then upon hearing that dozens or even thousands of people would write rip offs of the track in their room the very next day. The following week all those tracks would be played in clubs and raves up and down the country, and each one would produce a spin off. To put the scale of it in context, I personally have about 20,000 old skool tracks from 91 to 94, and I doubt that's even 10% of what's out there. It really was music creation on an unprecedented scale.

And so like any system, ultra rapid reproduction and rebirth set about a process of musical evolution on an accelerated timescale. It also created a parallel paradigm for how music can work within a scene. As well as than one talented person or band pushing boundaries, thousands of people contribute to the evolution of the music which moves in a seemingly random, homogenous fashion. The quality within the musical genre comes not from what one person can do, but where the collective goes.

The last piece of the puzzle was mp3s and particularly iPods. Before those, the only way to digest that much music was at clubs or on the radio. However they allowed people to carry the 20,000 tracks of their choice with them. That eliminated the final barrier stopping that type of musical paradigm from being easily digestible by the majority. Indeed since then the various new digital techs has if anything sped the whole thing up.

Music can be thought about in more ways that just sonics. When you think about it the biggest change in the history of music was almost certainly when music could first be recorded and replayed, which only really took place in a meaningful way a hundred years ago. In the same way post-modernist art was ushered in by the ability to reprint pictures, musical change was propagated by that same ability to reproduce. The next biggest change for me was the re-democratisation of music in the 70s and 80s, with musical worth being measured by the movement of the many, rather than the talent of the few.

So we may not get people doing what Bowie did again. The conditions aren't right for it. However if you look past a talented bloke making good tunes and consider the spectacular change in music evolution in the post-war era I would argue that we're just now entering a golden age of music, the inevitable logical conclusion of recorded music.

That's a great post. You can add Hip Hop in there too for the American model.

I agree that there are lots of great bands and musicians out there. However the reason I was speaking about chart music was because It is the most prominent.

I reckon if you looked at the every day singles chart music in the 60s and 70s it'd also be utter dross. We tend to filter out all the bad as it merges into history.
 
This is the old "Lady Gaga isn't as good as the Beatles so modern music sucks" fallacy.
I never said modern music sucks. I just think that the majority of it has fits the description that I made. There is still lots of great bands, singers and music out there.
 
Lady Gaga at a piano without all the bullshit is a real talent. As for music meaning less these days, didn't Bowie once say he used to clip words and phrases out of a magazine and jumble them up?

Point is Mockney is right, what we think of now as good might not be the way it's perceived in the future. Bowie among others got a lot of stick, and wasn't The Who thought of as pretty rubbish when they started?

I agree we aren't exactly in a golden age, but it does go round in circles.
 
Another thing you should consider, which ties into @bishblaize 's post, is what you deliniate as "great new music" and whether you're a fair arbiter of that. I mean if we played you things like The Heavy, or even Amy Winehouse for example, you could well say "that's not new, it's just an update on 60s/70s music" but if we played you some Jungle, or Acid House, or even Kanye West as @okLaptop1 mentioned, you could say "well, that's not what I mean, it's not real music in the same sense"

And if you did (the royal 'you', not specifically Pogue) then you wouldn't be being fair. You'd be judging it entirely by your standards, the standards set by 60s and 70s music, but dismissing anything too close, or too far. Demanding something that's at once familiar but also innovative. An unwinnable argument essentially, rigged in your favour.

Basically, anyone who can't see the appeal in modern music, isn't allowed to decide what constitutes great modern music.
 
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That's a great post. You can add Hip Hop in there too for the American model.

Yeah, that was a great post. Sort of hints at what I'm getting at. The consequence of making the production of music so "open source" means that if their are any really innovative, creative geniuses coming through they'll be drowned out by the noise (in the statistical and literal sense) of so many other artists being able to get their stuff out to the masses. A meritocracy is great but I'm a big believer in expert critical opinion and the role it has in sorting the wheat from the chaff, which means the special talents can be given the money and creative freedom they need to hone their skills. It's the same reason I would prefer to eat in a restaurant that's got a good review from a critic I trust rather than use the tripadvisor top 10 (which recommends some really terrible restaurants in my home town)

There's also something in all of this to do with the death of an album as a piece of musical art. That's a casualty of the way we consume music and I think we're worse off for it. Especially when you consider how many great tracks only really shine after repeated listens. Rarely an option these days.



I reckon if you looked at the every day singles chart music in the 60s and 70s it'd also be utter dross. We tend to filter out all the bad as it merges into history.

Absolutely. Paint by numbers pop music has always been round and always will be. I know feck all about classical music but aren't there composers who used to get slagged off for being too low brow?

I've no intention of slagging off mainstream pop music, just curious about where the next truly great, influential and original musician might come from. Does seem to have been a dearth of them over the last decade.
 
Yeah, that was a great post. Sort of hints at what I'm getting at. The consequence of making the production of music so "open source" means that if their are any really innovative, creative geniuses coming through they'll be drowned out by the noise (in the statistical and literal sense) of so many other artists being able to get their stuff out to the masses. A meritocracy is great but I'm a big believer in expert critical opinion and the role it has in sorting the wheat from the chaff, which means the special talents can be given the money and creative freedom they need to hone their skills. It's the same reason I would prefer to eat in a restaurant that's got a good review from a critic I trust rather than use the tripadvisor top 10 (which recommends some really terrible restaurants in my home town)

There's also something in all of this to do with the death of an album as a piece of musical art. That's a casualty of the way we consume music and I think we're worse off for it. Especially when you consider how many great tracks only really shine after repeated listens. Rarely an option these days.





Absolutely. Paint by numbers pop music has always been round and always will be. I know feck all about classical music but aren't there composers who used to get slagged off for being too low brow?

I've no intention of slagging off mainstream pop music, just curious about where the next truly great, influential and original musician might come from. Does seem to have been a dearth of them over the last decade.

This is a much better way of putting it, I agree with this.

But I think it won't stop real talents coming through, it could even boost the amount of them. Fact is though very few people can be great like Bowie and just click, we may ha e to wait a while but there'll always be innovators.
 
To play the devil's advocate, who's to say that post-80's is where the so-called decline started? Appreciators of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven could say that Bowie and The Beatles were shit compared to their idols, and that music has been going down since the 19th century.
 
Lady Gaga at a piano without all the bullshit is a real talent. As for music meaning less these days, didn't Bowie once say he used to clip words and phrases out of a magazine and jumble them up?

Point is Mockney is right, what we think of now as good might not be the way it's perceived in the future. Bowie among others got a lot of stick, and wasn't The Who thought of as pretty rubbish when they started?

I agree we aren't exactly in a golden age, but it does go round in circles.

Led Zeppelin were critically despised too for a long period and a band like The Smiths received plenty of negative reviews at the time.
 
I've no intention of slagging off mainstream pop music, just curious about where the next truly great, influential and original musician might come from. Does seem to have been a dearth of them over the last decade.

Again you keep saying that, but I don't think you're really looking. You're expecting them to be presented to you by the music industry, but they may not be. Like Archie's first reply pointed out, at least a part of the huge followings the Beatles, Bowie etc got was due the music press pushing them, and buoyed by the fact they were one of only a select band of people actually making music at that time. Obviously they had talent, but their cultural impact was down to quite a few other things that aren't replicable today.

Today you have to actually find artists. They're out there.
 
Again you keep saying that, but I don't think you're really looking. You're expecting them to be presented to you by the music industry, but they may not be. Like Archie's first reply pointed out, at least a part of the huge followings the Beatles, Bowie etc got was due the music press pushing them, and buoyed by the fact they were one of only a select band of people actually making music at that time. Obviously they had talent, but their cultural impact was down to quite a few other things that aren't replicable today.

Today you have to actually find artists. They're out there.

Definitely. With the internet and modern media it allows for many more to come through, but you have to find them as opposed to having them shoved down your throats.
 
As for music meaning less these days, didn't Bowie once say he used to clip words and phrases out of a magazine and jumble them up?

Yep, great point. And he constantly tried to change his style to gain success well before he started doing it to be subversive. Look at the Laughing Gnome FFS! It's a cynical novelty record. And Dylan was as cynical as they come. He didn't really give a shit about the folk scene at all.

Lots of "great" acts have been awarded retrospective 'deepness' and authenticity by their success and influence.
 
To play the devil's advocate, who's to say that post-80's is where the so-called decline started? Appreciators of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven could say that Bowie and The Beatles were shit compared to their idols, and that music has been going down since the 19th century.

Actually, that's very true. Comes back to Mockney's point about each generation thinking things were better in their day. Usually the point someone trots out that quote from Archimedes (I think?) bemoaning the lazy and workshy generation of the "youth of today", several hundred years ago.
 
It's likely that future generations will hold up in very high esteem artists that we may not expect. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years people were talking about Kanye West in the same league as David Bowie.

I would. At best he's looking at Barry White status. Famous, a decent amount of hits, but no legend.

The problem for future generations is that they don't have that big band or artist to idolize. Today all you have is pop products. None of that is particulalry remembered because it's so generic.

There are still many great bands, not just in the mainstream. And that's different from the past. As if greatness no longer have popular appeal.
 
Again you keep saying that, but I don't think you're really looking. You're expecting them to be presented to you by the music industry, but they may not be. Like Archie's first reply pointed out, at least a part of the huge followings the Beatles, Bowie etc got was due the music press pushing them, and buoyed by the fact they were one of only a select band of people actually making music at that time. Obviously they had talent, but their cultural impact was down to quite a few other things that aren't replicable today.

Today you have to actually find artists. They're out there.

Maybe that's what I'm getting at? It's not about the quality of the music (I'm not even a big fan of Bowie!) it's the cultural impact. Musicians and bands whose tunes will resonate with millions and millions of people all round the world and whose influence will shape music for decades to come. There's something kind of special about that and it is a shame if the music scene is getting so fragmented we'll never experience anything like that again.

I mean, it sometimes seems that the specific brand of smartphone that people chose to buy creates a greater number of passionate fans than anything a musician can or will produce. Which is a little... odd...
 
Maybe that's what I'm getting at? It's not about the quality of the music (I'm not even a big fan of Bowie!) it's the cultural impact. Musicians and bands whose tunes will resonate with millions and millions of people all round the world and whose influence will shape music for decades to come. There's something kind of special about that and it is a shame if the music scene is getting so fragmented we'll never experience anything like that again.

Or, there's something rather naive and hegemonic about it, and today's more diverse approach which allows everyone to find their own niche identy is better.

Depends how you want to look at it.
 
Absolutely. Paint by numbers pop music has always been round and always will be. I know feck all about classical music but aren't there composers who used to get slagged off for being too low brow?

I've no intention of slagging off mainstream pop music, just curious about where the next truly great, influential and original musician might come from. Does seem to have been a dearth of them over the last decade.

What does originality actually mean in this context? Bowie was a notorious magpie and Dylan actively appropriated other musicians' songs. I think originality is vastly overrated as very few artists in history were ever genuinely original.

Quality, authenticity and uniqueness are far more important and by those standards I wouldn't say music is in decline.
 
What does originality actually mean in this context? Bowie was a notorious magpie and Dylan actively appropriated other musicians' songs. I think originality is vastly overrated as very few artists in history were ever genuinely original.

Quality, authenticity and uniqueness are far more important and by those standards I wouldn't say music is in decline.

Isn't originality and uniqueness interchangeable?
 
To play the devil's advocate, who's to say that post-80's is where the so-called decline started? Appreciators of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven could say that Bowie and The Beatles were shit compared to their idols, and that music has been going down since the 19th century.

Meh, I preferred Haydn.
 
Let's put this another way.

Are there any song-writers out there today producing pop music as good as the Beatles at the very best?

Or rock bands producing stuff that could genuinely be considered better than anything Led Zeppelin ever wrote.

I'm genuinely open-minded about this and would love to hear some nominations.