Keeping Midfield Strong

Devil may care

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The line of the summer was "Midfield is sorted" but I think that may be too short sighted. I don't think it's far fetched to consider this could well be Carrick's last season, he'll be 35 at the start of next and has struggled in the double pivot system we now employ, and while Schweini has obviously been very good we have to remember he'll be 32 when we kick-off next season.

Schneiderlin is a good fit for the system even though he clearly needs to improve on the ball, I am certain he will settle, and if we buy a new CB Blind could well be put into the rotation in midfield. I don't think LvG is convinced by Ander in the deeper role and he's rarely used Fellaini in the position as he lacks the quality on the ball and is better served further up the pitch.

The role requires being a consistently secure passer and being able to receive the ball under pressure, there is a question mark over whether Blind can do the latter and Ander is often a bit careless on the ball and is better further forward.

Probably not a popular opinion I know, but I think we could probably do with adding a CM in the summer who is ideally suited to the double pivot and can give us a solid 4 options in there with Schweini, Blind and Schneiderlin. Whether this should be a younger CM or one in roughly the same age bracket as Blind and Schneiderlin, I'm not sure.
 
I think everyone on here realises we need a new midfielder to replace Carrick. Carrick should just be reserved for coming on in the 60th minute from now on.
 
We do have a strong midfield, but we don't seem to be fielding our strongest options there. A 3 man midfield of Schneiderlin as a 6, Schweinsteiger as an 8 and Herrera as an 8/10 would be superb and a great balance of everything needed in a 3 man midfield. Then we have Carrick (6), Blind (6), Fellaini (8/10), Rooney (10) and Mata (10) in reserve, plus Schneiderlin can play as an 8 as well.

Always having to play Rooney at the tip of the midfield/behind the striker is a detriment to our midfield. The options are strong, but the selections aren't as strong as they could be.
 
Devil may care said:
The line of the summer was "Midfield is sorted" but I think that may be too short sighted. I don't think it's far fetched to consider this could well be Carrick's last season, he'll be 35 at the start of next and has struggled in the double pivot system we now employ, and while Schweini has obviously been very good we have to remember he'll be 32 when we kick-off next season.

Schneiderlin is a good fit for the system even though he clearly needs to improve on the ball, I am certain he will settle, and if we buy a new CB Blind could well be put into the rotation in midfield. I don't think LvG is convinced by Ander in the deeper role and he's rarely used Fellaini in the position as he lacks the quality on the ball and is better served further up the pitch.

The role requires being a consistently secure passer and being able to receive the ball under pressure, there is a question mark over whether Blind can do the latter and Ander is often a bit careless on the ball and is better further forward.

Probably not a popular opinion I know, but I think we could probably do with adding a CM in the summer who is ideally suited to the double pivot and can give us a solid 4 options in there with Schweini, Blind and Schneiderlin. Whether this should be a younger CM or one in roughly the same age bracket as Blind and Schneiderlin, I'm not sure.
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I don't disagree with this and am pretty sure we will add next summer.
 
Woodward and Van Gaal should do every thing they can to sign Gundogan. The likes of Barcelona, possibly even Real Madrid and Bayern Munich might be in for him. But we have to make a preemptive offer he can't refuse, so to speak. We missed a trick by not going for him in the summer to double up with Schweinsteiger. The competition for his signature was less intense, and we could've brought him along at a nice pace. There was a lot of skepticism surrounding his recovery in the summer (including concerns about his weight), but he has made excellent progress since returning to the Dortmund fold. Last season, he was a bit rusty and rough around the edges, but improved as the year wore on. Now he's getting back to a level where he is almost as good as he was back in 2012/ 2013.

If there ever was a midfielder suited to playing in a double pivot with Schweinsteiger, it's Gundogan. An experienced Bastian has been at his best when he has some freedom to operate from deeper areas, that includes a couple of his heroic performances with Germany in the World Cup. He's a bit static now, so Gundogan would bring a dynamic element to the partnership, excellent passing range, the ability to dribble past people from midfield, and a keen eye for through balls. His mobility is a notch below what he evidenced in 2012/ 2013, but it'll all come with time and patience. He's experienced, still quite young, and would be near his prime in the next coupe of seasons. Makes sense on all fronts. Just the one year remaining on his contract so the initial transfer fee probably won't be that high, give him a handsome signing bonus, and a good pay package to go with it to.

Plus, he's like a swiss army knife in terms of the versatility he offers. The Schweinsteiger plus Gundogan combination has already been mentioned. He could play with Schneiderlin in a pivot to recreate the partnership with Sven Bender. He could play in a 3 man midfield. He could play as the #10 (has done so for Dortmund in the past, and for Germany), though I doubt Van Gaal will play him there - but still, the option will always be there, even for the next manager.

Also, a lot of the potential signing(s) would depend on what our ambitions are entering next season. If it's to possibly try and win the title, the addition of Gundogan would be enough. But if we want to compete in the Champions League in earnest, against Bayern Munich and the likes, then we will need Gundogan + 1 to really compete on all fronts, and ideally someone who can replace Schweinstiger in the long term. As good as Schweinsteiger is, he'll be a season older, slightly slower, a bit more inconsistent, and slightly less incisive. We need a cogent long term plan to find his successor. One of them is Ruben Neves, excellent passing range (Sly compared his passing style to Kroos in the other thread, and it's spot on), play with grit (like Bastian), is aggressive, has really good defensive workrate, and is very young. Next year he will be 19, and Schweinsteiger almost 32, giving us a good base to further his development and learn from the Fußballgott. Sign him and Gundogan to gove with what we already have, and we're golden for the medium term future.
 
I think we all thought that the midfield was sorted, because we all felt that we'd play a 3 man midfield with the options we now have.

We have 4 quality options at #6, with Carrick an absolute specialist, and Schneiderlin capable of performing the role in a more dynamic and pressing way when that is required. Schweinsteiger and Blind both have the intelligence and discipline to play there too.

Then our options at #8 are decent, with Herrera showing excellent form in the role last season, and Schweinsteiger who is still one of the best in world football for the possession game that we play. Then there's Schneiderlin and Fellaini, especially useful when we need steel and presence, and Pereira, who is probably the most attack minded of the bunch.

Our problem all season has been Wayne Rooney. He isn't good enough to play as a #9 so we accommodate him as a #10. But at the minute he isn't contributing anything to warrant his place in the team. The fact is, Carrick and Herrera are not playing in their best positions just to accommodate Rooney playing in his favoured #10 role, and it's limiting us massively.

If anything, we should be looking at another #8 in the summer, and looking to move Rooney to the bench.
 
Raoul said:
I don't disagree with this and am pretty sure we will add next summer.
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I thought it was against the rules for us to agree? ;) Seriously though, strengthening while we are strongish in the position is the best way, it keeps the options fresh and should avoid the mass buying we've had the last two summers.
 
We have an excellent midfield but the trick is to find the right balance. Rooney is an awful 10 and offers the 2 he's playing with next to nothing going forward or defensively. Carrick/Schweinsteiger shouldn't be starting together.
 
Invictus said:
Woodward and Van Gaal should do every thing they can to sign Gundogan. The likes of Barcelona, possibly even Real Madrid and Bayern Munich might be in for him. But we have to make a preemptive offer he can't refuse, so to speak. We missed a trick by not going for him in the summer to double up with Schweinsteiger. The competition for his signature was less intense, and we could've brought him along at a nice pace. There was a lot of skepticism surrounding his recovery in the summer (including concerns about his weight), but he has made excellent progress since returning to the Dortmund fold. Last season, he was a bit rusty and rough around the edges, but improved as the year wore on. Now he's getting back to a level where he is almost as good as he was back in 2012/ 2013.

If there ever was a midfielder suited to playing in a double pivot with Schweinsteiger, it's Gundogan. An experienced Bastian has been at his best when he has some freedom to operate from deeper areas, that includes a couple of his heroic performances with Germany in the World Cup. He's a bit static now, so Gundogan would bring a dynamic element to the partnership, excellent passing range, the ability to dribble past people from midfield, and a keen eye for through balls. His mobility is a notch below what he evidenced in 2012/ 2013, but it'll all come with time and patience. He's experienced, still quite young, and would be near his prime in the next coupe of seasons. Makes sense on all fronts. Just the one year remaining on his contract so the initial transfer fee probably won't be that high, give him a handsome signing bonus, and a good pay package to go with it to.

Plus, he's like a swiss army knife in terms of the versatility he offers. The Schweinsteiger plus Gundogan combination has already been mentioned. He could play with Schneiderlin in a pivot to recreate the partnership with Sven Bender. He could play in a 3 man midfield. He could play as the #10 (has done so for Dortmund in the past, and for Germany), though I doubt Van Gaal will play him there - but still, the option will always be there, even for the next manager.

Also, a lot of the potential signing(s) would depend on what our ambitions are entering next season. If it's to possibly try and win the title, the addition of Gundogan would be enough. But if we want to compete in the Champions League in earnest, against Bayern Munich and the likes, then we will need Gundogan + 1 to really compete on all fronts, and ideally someone who can replace Schweinstiger in the long term. As good as Schweinsteiger is, he'll be a season older, slightly slower, a bit more inconsistent, and slightly less incisive. We need a cogent long term plan to find his successor. One of them is Ruben Neves, excellent passing range (Sly compared his passing style to Kroos in the other thread, and it's spot on), play with grit (like Bastian), is aggressive, has really good defensive workrate, and is very young. Next year he will be 19, and Schweinsteiger almost 32, giving us a good base to further his development and learn from the Fußballgott. Sign him and Gundogan to gove with what we already have, and we're golden for the medium term future.
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Gundogan is by far the stand out choice I agree, I think his added versatility would suit LvG as well. If we added him it would give us the CM for all systems and he really does seem to be close to his best again, in truth I don't think it would be hurt to get in for him in January even if he remained at Dortmund the rest of the season.

Koke and Xhaka are the other 2 I rate of the early 20's CM's, but I'm not sure Koke will ever leave Atletico.

I like your Neves idea as he reminds me of Xabi Alonso and longer term he'd be ideal, but unless LvG decides to keep Blind exclusively as an LB/LCB option I can't see it happening.
 
Invictus said:
Woodward and Van Gaal should do every thing they can to sign Gundogan. The likes of Barcelona, possibly even Real Madrid and Bayern Munich might be in for him. But we have to make a preemptive offer he can't refuse, so to speak. We missed a trick by not going for him in the summer to double up with Schweinsteiger. The competition for his signature was less intense, and we could've brought him along at a nice pace. There was a lot of skepticism surrounding his recovery in the summer (including concerns about his weight), but he has made excellent progress since returning to the Dortmund fold. Last season, he was a bit rusty and rough around the edges, but improved as the year wore on. Now he's getting back to a level where he is almost as good as he was back in 2012/ 2013.

If there ever was a midfielder suited to playing in a double pivot with Schweinsteiger, it's Gundogan. An experienced Bastian has been at his best when he has some freedom to operate from deeper areas, that includes a couple of his heroic performances with Germany in the World Cup. He's a bit static now, so Gundogan would bring a dynamic element to the partnership, excellent passing range, the ability to dribble past people from midfield, and a keen eye for through balls. His mobility is a notch below what he evidenced in 2012/ 2013, but it'll all come with time and patience. He's experienced, still quite young, and would be near his prime in the next coupe of seasons. Makes sense on all fronts. Just the one year remaining on his contract so the initial transfer fee probably won't be that high, give him a handsome signing bonus, and a good pay package to go with it to.

Plus, he's like a swiss army knife in terms of the versatility he offers. The Schweinsteiger plus Gundogan combination has already been mentioned. He could play with Schneiderlin in a pivot to recreate the partnership with Sven Bender. He could play in a 3 man midfield. He could play as the #10 (has done so for Dortmund in the past, and for Germany), though I doubt Van Gaal will play him there - but still, the option will always be there, even for the next manager.

Also, a lot of the potential signing(s) would depend on what our ambitions are entering next season. If it's to possibly try and win the title, the addition of Gundogan would be enough. But if we want to compete in the Champions League in earnest, against Bayern Munich and the likes, then we will need Gundogan + 1 to really compete on all fronts, and ideally someone who can replace Schweinstiger in the long term. As good as Schweinsteiger is, he'll be a season older, slightly slower, a bit more inconsistent, and slightly less incisive. We need a cogent long term plan to find his successor. One of them is Ruben Neves, excellent passing range (Sly compared his passing style to Kroos in the other thread, and it's spot on), play with grit (like Bastian), is aggressive, has really good defensive workrate, and is very young. Next year he will be 19, and Schweinsteiger almost 32, giving us a good base to further his development and learn from the Fußballgott. Sign him and Gundogan to gove with what we already have, and we're golden for the medium term future.
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Agree with all of this. And also he can do well with Schneiderlin, with Schneiderlin (similar to Bender) being concentrated completely on defensive job, with Gundogan on playmaking job.

However, I think that the signature for him will be very strong next summer. If we can't get him, an alternative might be Granit Xhaka who has been very impressive for Gladbach and who is probably even better for the double pivot job. While not as creative as Gundogan, I think that Xhaka might be better defensively.
 
Stop playing Rooney, start playing Herrera.

Schneiderlin Herrera
--------Schweini
 
The midfield is sorted right now, but yes we will need to replace Carrick here shortly. Ideally we'll be replacing Fellaini as well. Bastian should take over Carrick's role and then hopefully we bring in some younger more dynamic players.

But, for this season we are definitely well stocked in midfield.
 
gza the genius said:
The midfield is sorted right now, but yes we will need to replace Carrick here shortly. Ideally we'll be replacing Fellaini as well. Bastian should take over Carrick's role and then hopefully we bring in some younger more dynamic players.

But, for this season we are definitely well stocked in midfield.
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What did for us yesterday was one was injured and he chose the wrong options with the others, not that we don't have the players. I agree he will need to replace Carrick.
 
We have to start rounding out the midfield with Schneiderlin and Herrera as the two constants. Both are young, energetic, hustle to close the gaps and press the opposition intelligently. Thinking about the game yesterday after the shock wore off, using Schweini and Carrick as a combination and playing a high line was a tactical blunder I would normally not associate with a manager of Van Gaal's caliber.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
What did for us yesterday was one was injured and he chose the wrong options with the others, not that we don't have the players. I agree he will need to replace Carrick.
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Yep, it wasn't a lack of options yesterday, it was an injury to Herrera and LVG choosing not to play Schniederlin for some reason.
 
We are alright for this year,with Carrick and Bastian getting older its wise to go after Gundogan next summer.Xhaka is good but with Gundogan looking to regain is old form i would be happy choose him ahead of Xhaka.
 
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Mani said:
We are alright for this year,with Carrick and Bastian getting older its wise to go after Gundogan next summer.Xhaka is good but with Gundogan looking to regain is old form i would be happy choose him ahead of Xhaka.
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Gundogan definitely has the edge over the rest IMO, he'd add the extra creative drive from midfield as we already have several that are good defensively.
 
I can only see gundogan coming in next summer but klipperty will be after him to for the scousers
 
Devil may care said:
Gundogan definitely has the edge over the rest IMO, he'd add the extra creative drive from midfield as we already have several that are good defensively.
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Yep we got Schneiderlin there, adding Xhaka and double pivotal would be boring to watch.Gundogan would be perfect partner for Schneiderlin,would certainly provide creative drive from MF.
 
Xhaka seems like the best option. I have been on that bandwagon for a while. But Johannes Geis is a name I like to throw out. He has raised his level of play since joining Schalke.
 
Doesn't Gundogan push Herrera further down the pecking order?
 
I think Fosu-Mensah will make the step up over the next 18 months or so perhaps. I'd like to see some speed and power in the middle, and Fosu-Mensah will provide that. I'd also like to think we have an eye on Tielemans, and Van Gaal will know all abour Bazoer too..

For now, we have enough, we obviously just need to drop Rooney. Van Gaal planned to play a 4-3-3, but his initial intention was to reserve the centre-forward role for Rooney without competition, hence selling any player who could feasibly start ahead of him to give him a free run. The problem now is that he accidentally bought someone who is immediately and obviously better than Rooney. If we didn't buy Martial, I'd imagine we'd see a proper 3 in midfield. Herrera was in the team before Martial joined as it is.
 
Not convinced by the defensive side of Xhaka's game. I'd have M'villa instead. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's a player better suited to filling the carrick sized hole in midfield better than M'villa. Gundogan would be an unnecessary signing if we have Herrera.
 
Herrera isn't someone that LvG will play in the double pivot IMO, he's to careless, you need to be a metronome in the role.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Not convinced by the defensive side of Xhaka's game. I'd have M'villa instead. As a matter of fact, I don't think there's a player better suited to filling the carrick sized hole in midfield better than M'villa. Gundogan would be an unnecessary signing if we have Herrera.
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Never change. :lol:
 
Sheldon69 said:
I can only see gundogan coming in next summer but klipperty will be after him to for the scousers
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I could see Klopp going for Xhaka, actually. Never had him as a player but must know how good he is and Liverpool's other midfielders who could even possibly develop into a player good enough to start for a consistent top 4 team (Henderson and Can) are basically brainless runners who can't be trusted to hold. Xhaka can. It's not the same setup as Bender/Kehl-Gundogan/Sahin of one passer, one holder, but it fits Liverpool's needs better. Gundogan-Henderson/Can still looks defensively rocky to me.

Also, Gundogan will go to a bigger team. He'd walk into Chelsea, Citeh or United and Barcelona might need him an Bayern might want him.
 
Just thought I'd bump this as while our attack is by far our biggest problem I still feel we need to add a more dynamic CM to link midfield and attack. Bastian is doing his best but LvG often subs him as I imagine the feeling is that he can't do it for 90 minutes in back to back games, and in truth he lacks a bit in the mobility stakes these days. I think he'd benefit from being able to sit deeper and dictate while a younger CM took up the responsibility of carrying the ball forward.
 
It's being debated in @Raees thread so I decided to bump this, I think it's more than just a "maybe" now that we need a CM in the summer. Carrick is not only nearly 35 but he's starting to get more injury issues, Bastian has started to look tired as the season has went on which probably relates to his previous injury problems taking a physical toll, and I think everyone would agree that Fellaini in the deeper midfield position is a disaster.

Gundogan remains the #1 choice for me but with him back at his best and Dortmund playing very well I imagine getting him will be difficult. Ruben Neves already looks the real deal to me but at his age he may also be reluctant and it seems Saul from Atleti doesn't want to leave, however I am sure we can get a good fit in.
 
I think because we dominate midfield statistics week in week out, we have been fooled into thinking this area has improved massively since under Sir Alex. Well yes it has, but it is still nowhere near good enough for where we want to be and we're relying on some incredibly old players and an exceptionally slow tempo to hold it all together in there. As soon as we try to go toe to toe, teams run through us with ease.
 
Raees said:
I think because we dominate midfield statistics week in week out, we have been fooled into thinking this area has improved massively since under Sir Alex. Well yes it has, but it is still nowhere near good enough for where we want to be and we're relying on some incredibly old players and an exceptionally slow tempo to hold it all together in there. As soon as we try to go toe to toe, teams run through us with ease.
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Exactly, the moment we start trying to play quicker and more expansive football leaving more room as we stretch out, the midfield gets into trouble as other than Schneiderlin the lack of mobility in there is evident.
 
I said the same recently. You need a stable midfield pairing / three and neither Schweinsteiger or Carrick are capable of playing a sustained run of games, hence we need a good young midfielder that complements Schneiderlin.
 
We definitely need to strengthen the midfield. I am a big fan of Schneiderlin and I think he will start to get back to his best when we get a manager that can get this squad playing football. I would keep Blind as Schneiderlin's competition which means we don't need a CDM. We definitely need a CM though. Schweinsteiger was a steal for the price we got him but he is too old to be a starter. We need a player that can control a game and can pass the ball. Here I would like to see us get a proven CM like Gundogan or Kroos. As well as that type of signing a youngster that could be an impact player in his first season like Ruben Neves or Tielemans would mean our midfield would be finally sorted in my opinion. I would keep Carrick for another year as back up CDM and sell Fellaini, leaving Herrera as a #10 or a #8 if needed.

CDM
Schneiderlin
Blind
Carrick

CM
Gundogan/Kroos
Schweinsteiger
Neves/Tielemans
 
Need a suitable partner for Schneiderlin and we will be ok.

Id rather we moved to a 433 system though than the 4231. Think it suits our squad a lot better apart from Mata.
 
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