Leny Yoro

AnotherLondonManc

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This signing doesn't make any sense for us. We need to be buying established, senior players. Why risk it on an 18 year old, when there are viable alternatives for cheaper?

You sign a teenager either because they're cheap, and have potential to sell on for a profit, or because they'll stick with you for a long time and you get your money's worth.

Yoro will already cost around 80 mil, so not much potential in the profit department.

And if he's all he's cracked up to be, he's unlikely to stay with us his whole career. We'll get 5 or so years out of him at best and with our history of selling players, we'd do well to just break even.

Todibo will be 29 in 5 years, and is far more experienced. This is the wrong signing for us at this time
 

BenitoSTARR

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I'll take that for Diomande, but in a Yoro thread - I'd say Branthwaite has shown more on the ball so.far than Yoro. Yoro is great positional, but it's sideways passes.
Yeah that’s fair. Apologies I didn’t see the full context of your discussion.
 

simonhch

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A "buy British" policy is equally as stupid as a "he's British so must be overrated" viewpoint, which is prevalent on these boards.

Branthwaite looks a good footballer. A lot of people on here saying don't buy him were saying the same about Rice last year.
I completely agree with that. Being British in the PL is such a politically loaded and partisan subject. As you say, people either overrate based on PL experience etc., or completely underrate because they are not exotic enough. Rice is a brilliant example. Judged as a footballer, there were a few of us saying how good he was and how he’d be the perfect fit for us, but as you say there was a crowd that dismissed him as overrated and overpriced precisely because he is British, and from West Ham. He’s proved his worth already. Superb player. I think Branthwaite gets a lot of that for the same reason, with people quick to jump to a lazy Maguire comparison.

But that’s the football forum through and through.

I actually regret mentioning names in my post because they are always so polemic, and the point I was trying to make was completely lost.
 

Rozay

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This signing doesn't make any sense for us. We need to be buying established, senior players. Why risk it on an 18 year old, when there are viable alternatives for cheaper?

You sign a teenager either because they're cheap, and have potential to sell on for a profit, or because they'll stick with you for a long time and you get your money's worth.

Yoro will already cost around 80 mil, so not much potential in the profit department.

And if he's all he's cracked up to be, he's unlikely to stay with us his whole career. We'll get 5 or so years out of him at best and with our history of selling players, we'd do well to just break even.

Todibo will be 29 in 5 years, and is far more experienced. This is the wrong signing for us at this time
This post makes little sense.

Firstly, Yoro will not cost 80m.

Secondly, why would, ‘if he’s all he’s cracked up to be’ i.e, the best central defensive prospect in the game, would we therefore be guaranteed to sell him in his prime (i.e - against our wishes), yet somehow struggle to break even. ‘Given our history’. Like when has that EVER happened where we’ve succumbed to a hostile sale, without getting a decent fee?
 

simonhch

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You're right. I'm all for finding hidden gems from South America like Anselmino, or taking cheap punts from within the continent like Malacia or Daniel James, but we also need to be in for the absolute best, more established talents more often, like the ones Madrid and City have signed in recent years. I'm talking about the talent level of Bellingham, Tchouaméni, Camavinga, Haaland and Gvardiol. Tchouaméni and Haaland had already turned 22 by the time of signing but you get my point. I feel like we've made some of those signings as well post-Ferguson, but far too few of them. Pogba, Sancho, Hojlund, Shaw and Martial come to mind that IMO fell into this category at the time of signing. Won't mention Bruno as he was already 25 when he joined United.

Yoro is arguably the biggest U21 centre back prospect out there right now, so if we have a chance of getting him, we need to be all over him. Simple as that. Joao Neves is another name you mentioned that I feel like is in that elite bracket, however I have my reservations about signing such a similar profile to Mainoo for what is going to be around a 100m transfer fee.

I wish we were in for Willian Estevao as well. Seems weird to me that all the big clubs just let Chelsea have a free run at him.
With you 100%.

I think we will actually be slower to move this summer than many have a hope for. It’ll take a little while to reach some sort of operational equilibrium with all the new staff coming in, and old ones going out. And I believe there will be a decent amount of financial housekeeping to be done to get things in order. A massive part of that is going to be moving players out. I think the speed with which we can do that will dictate how quickly we can move on some of our targets. I certainly think that Ineos will choose not to move on someone, if conditions and outgoings aren’t right, rather than move with haste and try and figure it out later. They’ll be looking at potentially the winter window, and definitely next summer for operating under an optimal set up. They are looking at this as a multi year project, and not fixable in one massive go.

I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they are able to move out all the players they want and get their targets in this summer. I just think with spending regulations, the amount of outgoings needed, the manager situation, the organisational restructuring, stadium repairs, and new key personnel bedding in, it’s a highly complex summer for them; and we might need to be patient. More likely to see our new transfer policy take a recognisable shape next summer, rather than this.
 

Rojofiam

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This signing doesn't make any sense for us. We need to be buying established, senior players. Why risk it on an 18 year old, when there are viable alternatives for cheaper?

You sign a teenager either because they're cheap, and have potential to sell on for a profit, or because they'll stick with you for a long time and you get your money's worth.

Yoro will already cost around 80 mil, so not much potential in the profit department.

And if he's all he's cracked up to be, he's unlikely to stay with us his whole career. We'll get 5 or so years out of him at best and with our history of selling players, we'd do well to just break even.

Todibo will be 29 in 5 years, and is far more experienced. This is the wrong signing for us at this time
If we want to be a 95-100 point Premier League team and a top 3 favorite for the Champions League within 3 or 4 years' time, our core needs to be made up of 6-7 Yoro level talents, not 6-7 Todibos. That doesn't mean Todibo is a bad player, and he would be a good signing as well. However, we need to aim for the absolute best talents first, before settling for inferior players.
 

cpresc

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I completely agree with that. Being British in the PL is such a politically loaded and partisan subject. As you say, people either overrate based on PL experience etc., or completely underrate because they are not exotic enough. Rice is a brilliant example. Judged as a footballer, there were a few of us saying how good he was and how he’d be the perfect fit for us, but as you say there was a crowd that dismissed him as overrated and overpriced precisely because he is British, and from West Ham. He’s proved his worth already. Superb player. I think Branthwaite gets a lot of that for the same reason, with people quick to jump to a lazy Maguire comparison.

But that’s the football forum through and through.

I actually regret mentioning names in my post because they are always so polemic, and the point I was trying to make was completely lost.
Not sure about this.

Rice always made England look rock solid when he was still at West Ham.

Braithwaite has done nothing and is a left footed central defender, which is one of very few positions we have a long term solution for in Martinez.
 

AnotherLondonManc

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This post makes little sense.

Firstly, Yoro will not cost 80m.

Secondly, why would, ‘if he’s all he’s cracked up to be’ i.e, the best central defensive prospect in the game, would we therefore be guaranteed to sell him in his prime (i.e - against our wishes), yet somehow struggle to break even. ‘Given our history’. Like when has that EVER happened where we’ve succumbed to a hostile sale, without getting a decent fee?
I seem to recall hearing he had a release clause of roughly that value. Maybe needs a fact check.

Singing top prospects is all well and good, but would you not agree that spending an absurd amount on a 'prospect' isn't wise in our case? Especially when players like Todibo and Araujo are potentially available. Players who are more likely to make the immediate impact we need.

And yes, we have an awful record in shifting our players. Pogba, free. Martial, free. Varane, free. VdB, likely free. Casemiro, likely peanuts. Even Amad is in a precarious contract situation. I thought this much was obvious?
 

Rojofiam

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With you 100%.

I think we will actually be slower to move this summer than many have a hope for. It’ll take a little while to reach some sort of operational equilibrium with all the new staff coming in, and old ones going out. And I believe there will be a decent amount of financial housekeeping to be done to get things in order. A massive part of that is going to be moving players out. I think the speed with which we can do that will dictate how quickly we can move on some of our targets. I certainly think that Ineos will choose not to move on someone, if conditions and outgoings aren’t right, rather than move with haste and try and figure it out later. They’ll be looking at potentially the winter window, and definitely next summer for operating under an optimal set up. They are looking at this as a multi year project, and not fixable in one massive go.

I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they are able to move out all the players they want and get their targets in this summer. I just think with spending regulations, the amount of outgoings needed, the manager situation, the organisational restructuring, stadium repairs, and new key personnel bedding in, it’s a highly complex summer for them; and we might need to be patient. More likely to see our new transfer policy take a recognisable shape next summer, rather than this.
I don't think half the squad will leave and I'd argue they shouldn't, either. I don't want to see Ineos change the whole squad in a single window like Boehly and co. at Chelsea. Not selling if the conditions aren't right is something I agree with. For example, I'd rather let Wan-Bissaka run his contract down and leave on a free next summer if clubs are going to lowball us with 10m or lower offers. If the club sets an asking price and then internally decides the absolute lowest fee they'd be willing a player leave for, they need to stick to it.

In regards to incomings, I'm expecting at least 4 significant arrivals, but potentially even 5 or 6 by the end of the window. Hope we can sell Greenwood as his departure would help us FFP-wise than any other sale I can think of, other than getting a big fee for Rashford, but I would personally keep him.
 

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Regarding my list, certainly not everyone is as ready as Branthwaite is, because of their respective leagues, age etc. But I was listing the top CB targets which includes their expected ceilings. And imo I think most of the named players have a higher ceiling than Branthwaite, especially because they are much better on the ball. Yes, physically, I would take JB in a hearbeat, but I also need the football skills which he seems to lack from what I have seen so far (not that he is bad at it, just not a future top class CB). I would definitely take the other players on my list long term.
I'm pretty sure Ruud specifically praised Branthwaite's ability on the ball at PSV. I wouldn't read much into his progressive passing under Dyche. Dyche specifically instructs his defenders to avoid risk. If they were constantly making risky passes, they'd be getting an earful. Lenny Yoro's progressive passing stats are basically just as bad too, so if you're criticising Branthwaite on the ball, you should be doing the same with Yoro.
 

Rojofiam

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I seem to recall hearing he had a release clause of roughly that value. Maybe needs a fact check.

Singing top prospects is all well and good, but would you not agree that spending an absurd amount on a 'prospect' isn't wise in our case? Especially when players like Todibo and Araujo are potentially available. Players who are more likely to make the immediate impact we need.

And yes, we have an awful record in shifting our players. Pogba, free. Martial, free. Varane, free. VdB, likely free. Casemiro, likely peanuts. Even Amad is in a precarious contract situation. I thought this much was obvious?
These examples don't really strengthen your argument.

Pogba left because he saw that the club was going nowhere, and went into his last season undecided about his future. In the end, the terms we offered didn't satisfy him and decided to leave. If not for Covid, I suspect he would've left 1 or 2 years earlier and we would've got a fee for him. I don't think United mishandled his situation.

Martial also decided to run his contract down. Varane didn't agree to a salary reduction. Van de Beek was just an awful signing and he was awfully managed by the club as well. Casemiro was never going to have much resale value. Amad hasn't left. We also have new owners that run the club, if you haven't noticed.

If Yoro comes here and becomes one of the best centre halves around by his early 20s, it will have been worth it even if he leaves on a free after 5+ years because Madrid or Barca lure him. Those two clubs take whoever they usually want and there's not much you can do if one of your best players decides to go there. Mbappé, Rüdiger, Alaba, Gündogan, Christensen, Lewandowski was intent on running his contract down as well, etc.
 

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When I listed the players we have to build around, you really do feel like the summer should be 2 defenders, 2 deeper midfielders and a striker, and even if we only go 1/2 with the defenders and deeper mids, we should at least be able to field a decent XI with some subs. I'm intrigued by Olise (his first 5 yards carrying the ball look special) but the priority has to be getting Martinez a partner, some kind of left-footed defender, a star DM and some kind of backup for him and Mainoo.
Yep. Our spine is painfully weak and unathletic as of now and it completely hampers our ability to defend on the front foot, which is obviously an issue if you want to be some high pressing/dynamic team.
 

Rojofiam

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My personal opinion, these players have higher ceiling:
- Leny Yoro
- Antonio Silva
- Giorgio Scalvini
- Ousmane Diomande
- Jorrel Hato
- Castello Lukeba
- Pau Cubarsi
- Levi Colwill (if injuries don't destroy his career)
- Lucas Beraldo (much better on the ball)

He probably makes the top 10, as I had thought Calafiori and Gvardiol would be one year younger.
But take aside the British media hype and he is not as talented as many of the named above.
Not convinced that Antonio Silva or Beraldo are better, tbh. Colwill and Cubarsi are both unavailable.
 

simonhch

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I don't think half the squad will leave and I'd argue they shouldn't, either. I don't want to see Ineos change the whole squad in a single window like Boehly and co. at Chelsea. Not selling if the conditions aren't right is something I agree with. For example, I'd rather let Wan-Bissaka run his contract down and leave on a free next summer if clubs are going to lowball us with 10m or lower offers. If the club sets an asking price and then internally decides the absolute lowest fee they'd be willing a player leave for, they need to stick to it.

In regards to incomings, I'm expecting at least 4 significant arrivals, but potentially even 5 or 6 by the end of the window. Hope we can sell Greenwood as his departure would help us FFP-wise than any other sale I can think of, other than getting a big fee for Rashford, but I would personally keep him.
I don’t think half the squad will leave either but I think there will be significant outgoings. More importantly, I think some of the outgoings will have a significant impact on the overall budget. Moving on Varane and Martial for example has freed up 550k a week off the wage bill. Which gives us a lot of wiggle room under PSR. But shifting out Casemiro and Sancho, would have an equally massive impact on the overall budget. Although with both still having transfer fees amortised, not quite as much as one would hope. Additionally if we sell a homegrown player, like Rashford or McTominay, that’s pure profit under the regulations, and can be parlayed into a significantly large signing once their transfer fee is amortised over a 5 or 6 year deal.

So I don’t think it’s as much about how many go out, it’s more about who goes out. Because that impacts (a) who we might need to sign as a replacement, and (b) how much budget is available. The issue for us is that the more obvious players we need to move, are also the most difficult to move because of their wages. To not take a PSR hit, we probably have to sell Sancho for 40m odd, and for him to be able to agree personal terms without a contribution from us. I believe we are looking for about 50m for him, which won’t be easy given he earns about 275k per week I believe. Maybe more.

Casemiro meanwhile is earning 350k per week, which will only be replaceable in Saudi Arabia, and we signed him for 60m on a 4 year deal. That means he still has 30m of his fee to be amortised. For every pound below 30m we sell him for, eats into the savings on his wages. So if we shift him for 20m, we’ll save 36.4m in wages, but lose 10m in remaining amortised transfer cost. So actual savings will be 26.4m over two years, which translates to zero added to the transfer budget, and 254k a week freed up from the payroll. You can of course adjust that either way, but for simplicity I’ve presented it as such. Our best case scenario for Casemiro is that we sell him for 30m, meaning a wash on his remaining transfer fee, and he moves elsewhere. That would give us 350k per week more wiggle room on the budget. We’ll be extremely lucky to get that. If we let him walk for free (just an an example), then our net savings over the next two years, will be 6.4m, or just 61.5k per week. His outgoing transfer is one of the most important in our squad.

Maguire still has 13.3m of amortised transfer fee on the books. Plus a 190k per week salary. So if we sold him this summer for 25m, the net effect on our books for next season, would be positive 21.6m, or in terms of wages 415k per week. If we did a deal like that, and all the profit went on the books right away for next year, due to amortisation, we could sign a replacement for 75m and pay them 175k p/wk, and be in the same position regarding PSR. In simple terms, you could turn Maguire into Branthwaite, Yoro, Silva etc etc., and even with the huge fee of 60-80m, still be neutral on PSR, assuming you pay them comparable or slightly less than Maguire (due to their young age).

I highlighted in another post, how selling Rashford for 75m, could be parlayed into signing four 75m pound players, on 6 year deals at around 125-175k p/wk, while maintaining a net neutral PSR position (for next season anyway, gets harder after that and you need to make further adjustments). This assumption was specified on targeting younger players, who might command large fees, but not yet demand monster contracts.
 
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aeh1991

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Not convinced that Antonio Silva or Beraldo are better, tbh. Colwill and Cubarsi are both unavailable.
Hence I wrote "higher ceiling". I was replying to a post that said Branthwaite is a top 3 CB talent. I know most of these are not a available or not ready.

Personally, if we go for a LCB it should be Jorrel Hato imo. Looks like a leftfooted Jurriel Timber who can also play LB. Doesn't have the physique of Branthwaite (he's 1.82), but he looks so good on the ball and in defense, is press resistant and has replaced Martinez at Ajax with ease. Perfect player for modern build up play, he would be a typical Arteta/Pep player. In videos he even looks decent in the air (turned out that's untrue statwise, so he'd need to step up his physical game). And the fact that he still has to learn would make him a great Licha understudy and still good enough to play when needed. Get him and Yoro and we'd probably have the two potential world class CBs for many years, although they'd cost a lot.
 
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MJay

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I don't think we are paying these amounts anymore.
If we are not paying 50m anymore, then we are in bigger trouble than we all thought. Smaller teams regularly pay that now, never mind the 100ms for the likes of Rice.
Personally I don't think that will be the case. We wont be paying 50-70m for players who have clearly peaked or on the way down, but we will definitely pay those amounts, multiple times, for supreme or generational talents that have hopefully been thoroughly scouted and selected through a proper process, to ensure we are certain the player fits our game model and club philosophy.
 

Foolsgold21

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Marca reporting we have bid 60m euro
Also say we have essentially blown them out the water at 60m Euro.

Is this either to save face or to make themselves look better when they conclude the deal for less?

Interesting..
 

tidraKS

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I like that maybe we're doing things a bit faster this time. If they don't accept it, move on.
 

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Well at least we're making a proper attempt at getting one of the hottest prospects in one of the most important positions for us. Whether we'll be able to beat Real Madrid though.. we usually don't.
 

BarstoolProphet

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Imagine how great they would look in their eyes if the mighty Manchester United have bid way more than their limit and they player still decided his dream is only Madrid.
 

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If real Madrid is actually going for him then tough odds on us getting him. And if they are going for him, this report from Marca is likely bullshit.
 

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Also say we have essentially blown them out the water at 60m Euro.

Is this either to save face or to make themselves look better when they conclude the deal for less?

Interesting..
Or maybe (and the most likely explanation) we realize that in order to get him we have to offer more both to the club and player since at the moment their project might look a bit more interesting? We're not even sure who our manager is going to be next season. Seems like a high yet realistic bid. I can imagine Lille would much rather sell to us for more money than Madrid for less.