Man arrested for murder after running over and killing a guy who was stabbing a woman | Faces no charges

Jippy

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You could be right, I may be right. The same piece of law can be argued in many different ways.

Death by dangerous driving has three levels of severity.

Level One, the most serious, is defined as driving that involves a deliberate decision to ignore the rules of the road and an apparent disregard for the great danger being caused to others. A prolonged, persistent and deliberate course of very bad driving or Consumption of alcohol or drugs leading to gross impairment for example.

Level two is defined as driving that created a substantial risk of danger. Excessive speed or racing against another driver for example. Reading or using your phone is another.

Level three is defined as driving that created a significant risk of danger. Above the speed limit, driving whilst tired, an obvious danger arising from a seriously dangerous manoeuvre, Failing to have proper regard for vulnerable road users (the words make it sound like it must be other drivers, riders but this is not the case)


In bold are terms that could have been applied.


Great news about the outcome and a sensible decision in the end.
Had no idea it had multiple levels- makes it quite a broad church.

My brother got done for dangerous driving after he pulled out in front of a car which caused a bad prang, but with no-one injured. Sounds level one but without the death outcome.

Glad we're not going to actively deter people from stopping murdering maniacs by criminalising this guy. Crazy case though.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I understand that completely, where I'm not not understanding you is why you'd then say it's problematic for the police to arrest somebody who killed another person. The lawfulness of that killing would need to be determined in court, your average police man on the street is not equipped to on the spot make a determination of whether a killing is lawful or unlawful. Killing is generally unlawful, and any justification/excuse defences would be a thing for court. There is a huge difference between someone getting hit with a bottle, and somebody dying because someone rammed their car into them. You're also comparing US law with UK law. In the UK a jury needs to decide whether or not the force used in self defence was reasonable and justified or not. Someone getting hit by a bottle is never ever going to end up in a court room, but a killing is so it's not comparable.

I don't know too much about US law so I can't really discuss the Arbery case with any confidence but even a cursory glance infers that the only reason the police did not arrest the killer is not because they decided they didn't need to, but because they wanted to and the DA stopped them and was later indicted for having done that. "Johnson -- on the day of the shooting -- prevented two Glynn County police officers from exercising their duties "by directing that Travis McMichael should not be placed under arrest, contrary to the laws of said State, the good order, peace, and dignity thereof" indicating that it would have been the right thing for the police to have arrested them at the time.
If an attacker had hit someone with a bottle it absolutely could end with an arrest and end up in a courtroom. And if someone is killed but it's a case of self-defense (or adjacent like this case) it does not necessarily end with an arrest and courtroom. There are tons of examples of both. Arresting people for the defense of others can become problematic because it could potentially de-incentivize such behavior. Fortunately, this case won't go any further, but it didn't require an arrest to reach this conclusion.
 

Goalfather

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Something pretty similar happened to me.

I was heading home at about 3 Am when I saw a woman walking down the street in shorts. There was a car driving slowly along the other side of the road, matching her speed. I thought he might be a heckler or that she was training and he was there to protect. It bothered me though and as I bent the corner, something told me to go back to ensure that she was safe.

On my return, I saw that his car was parked along the roadway and that they were fighting and he was attempting to pull her into the car. I sped up looking clearly to see if there was some weapon, with the intent to run his ass over if I saw anything. I did not and I jumped out of the car, hoping that my height and frame would cause him to think twice about attacking me. I shouted to him to step away from her which he did and I asked her if she wanted me to take her to the police station which was less than 1km away. She declined and she said that he hit her. I asked her if she wanted to come with me and she declined and told me if I could bring the police here. I jumped back in the car was at Station and the desk officers could not be bothered. They assumed that she was a sex worker/ or that it was a domestic dispute. I told them that it was just a few 100 metres away. They told me that they would see to it. One of the officers was a woman and she seemed more disinterested than the male officer.

I left the station and when I passed the spot neither the couple nor the car was there
 

Cloud7

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Brilliant. I’m glad the correct outcome happened here.
 

NotworkSte

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I understand that completely, where I'm not not understanding you is why you'd then say it's problematic for the police to arrest somebody who killed another person. The lawfulness of that killing would need to be determined in court, your average police man on the street is not equipped to on the spot make a determination of whether a killing is lawful or unlawful. Killing is generally unlawful, and any justification/excuse defences would be a thing for court. There is a huge difference between someone getting hit with a bottle, and somebody dying because someone rammed their car into them. You're also comparing US law with UK law. In the UK a jury needs to decide whether or not the force used in self defence was reasonable and justified or not. Someone getting hit by a bottle is never ever going to end up in a court room, but a killing is so it's not comparable.

I don't know too much about US law so I can't really discuss the Arbery case with any confidence but even a cursory glance infers that the only reason the police did not arrest the killer is not because they decided they didn't need to, but because they wanted to and the DA stopped them and was later indicted for having done that. "Johnson -- on the day of the shooting -- prevented two Glynn County police officers from exercising their duties "by directing that Travis McMichael should not be placed under arrest, contrary to the laws of said State, the good order, peace, and dignity thereof" indicating that it would have been the right thing for the police to have arrested them at the time.
You're kind of right and kind of wrong. Here's how it worked in Scotland. I have simplified this a little because there is a lot of nuance in the process, and I was a constable over 20 years ago.

Some is killed and the police investigate. If I charge someone with (the wording needs to be exact) suspicion of committing a crime, that charge allows me certain rights to question further (and gives the person charged rights as well). It is not the charge that goes to court. My report goes to the procurator fiscal who then determines the actual charges that are placed on the suspect. As a constable my charge allowed me to arrest for the purpose of fact finding, and for the purpose of protecting other people or the arrestee from themselves.

Killing someone lawfully isn't arrestable or chargeable itself. And the lawfulness doesn't necessarily have to be determined by a court case. And even if it is questionable, some stuff is dropped as "not in the public interest". However regardless of our opinion on the matter, all deaths not natural causes were always referred to the PF. I could write a novel on the nuances here, that's why we have lawyers though.

And this appears to be what happened in this case. The CPS will have decided the killing is lawful and no charges are required.
 

Wibble

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The police are the investigating team for the prosecution (CPS/DA/ADA or the like). They have the responsibility of deciding if taking no further action in cases that cannot meet the appropriate evidential standard and without the need to refer to a prosecutor. The police also assess whether cases meet the legal threshold test on available evidence to present to the prosecution for a charge decision. So in short, if the police believe he acted lawfully, they can end an investigation.

The decision to charge and with what is a serious case is the responsibility of the prosecutor, we'll say the CPS for argument's sake. The CPS will have to consider if the evidence available is usable in court and that it is reliable and credible. The CPS will have to determine if there is a realistic prospect of conviction. The case must also be in the public interest and the CPS must consider the costs involved in bringing the case to trial (a highly debated aspect). This case is very complex and I have zero doubt that the prosecutor, not the police, would be charged with making the decision to proceed or not.

Could he be charged with murder? Yes. Murder is committed when a person of sound mind unlawfully kills another person (actus rea) and they have the intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm(mens rea), both mens rea and actus rea must be proven to be convicted. It could be argued that when the defendant decided to get into the car and drive it at the attacker that the defendant should have had a reasonable mind that his actions would cause death or serious harm.

Could he be charged with involuntary manslaughter? Unlikely. As above but without the intent to cause death or grievous bodily harm, this is less likely to be argued successfully as the outcome was the death of the attacker. To argue that he didn't intend to harm has little weight considering the facts known and I would advise against the charge being brought forward.

Could he be charged with gross negligence manslaughter? Unlikely. Gross negligence manslaughter is committed where the death is a result of a grossly negligent, though otherwise lawful, act or omission on the part of the defendant. It could be argued that when the defendant chose to get into the car with the intention to drive at the attacker that this was not a legal act. If the defendant ran over the attacker on the road whilst driving to the shops, the defendant may have been negligent and this charge may apply.

Could he be charged with death by dangerous driving? Yes. Causing the death of another person while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle dangerously on the road or a public place. It could be argued that the facts of the case could be applied and successfully argued.

Could he be charged with criminal negligence? Yes. Conduct where a person ignores an obvious risk or disregards the life and safety of those around him. This could be argued successfully when considering the facts we know.

It really does fall on how the investigating team (police) and the Prosecution (CPS) view the act. There will also be pressure to 'do the right thing' but what is the right thing? Believe it or not, there will be those that call for the strict law to apply without fear or favour and will want to claim justice for the attacker, both public and political pressure. For example, if the CPS decided to discontinue the family of the attacker can bring litigation in the form of a civil suit against them. There is always many this to consider.

Bare in mind, this is just conjecture and there could be different charges brought forward that are not listed above.

I hope this helps a little.


Edit: What to charge the defendant with is very important for the prosecuting team. To get a conviction they must prove the intiraty of their case beyond all reasonable doubt, the burden of prosecution.
Awesome answer. Thanks. I love when I learn something and your answer was exactly what I was thinking of.

Glad I got I before he was released :)
 

Denis79

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They absolutely do exactly that. Police determine all the time if an arrest should be made or not and police quite often conduct investigations and consult with DAs before deciding to make an arrest. Maybe it's different where you live, but in the US/certain cities and states, this situation would not require an arrest. Police can (and do) take statements, review video, evidence, etc and then discuss with DAs when necessary and determine if charges need to be filed.
I can confirm this, worked as an police officer for many years. Even if some laws are broken the circumstances decided if we took action or not. A certain time I remember well, we were dispatched to a home invasion. When we arrived a man was lying on the ground beaten to a pulp with a man still standing over him still dishing out punches and kicks. This is a serious crime no matter the circumstances since the man on the ground was clearly subdued and posing no threat in any way.

We questioned the man dishing out the kicks and punches we understood that he was the home owner, you could clearly see he had gone in some self-preservation mode, full of adrenaline. The man had fought the perpetrator inside his apartment and contracted some serious injuries to himself, after a prolonged brawl he managed to subdue the perpetrator and forcefully dragged him out on the street where he continued the beating, in his mind he was still fighting for his life and that of his family was our conclusion. After a short discussion with my colleague and a call to the officer in charge we decided to omit the criminal action we had seen occur from our report and concluded the the injuries on the perpetrator were contracted at the initial confrontation inside.
 
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Carolina Red

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I can confirm this, worked as an police officer for many years. Even if some laws are broken the circumstances decided if we took action or not. A certain time I remember well, we were dispatched to a home invasion. When we arrived a man was lying on the ground beaten to a pulp with a man still standing over him still dishing out punches and kicks. This is a serious crime no matter the circumstances since the man on the ground was clearly subdued and posing no threat in any way.

We questioned the man dishing out the kicks and punches we understood that he was the home owner, you could clearly see he had gone in some self-preservation mode, full of adrenaline. The man had fought the perpetrator inside his apartment and contracted some serious injuries to himself, after a prolonged brawl he managed to subdue the perpetrator and forcefully dragged him out on the street where he continued the beating, in his mind he was still fighting for his life and that of his family was our conclusion. After a short discussion with my colleague and a call to the officer in charge we decided to omit the criminal action we had seen occur from our report and concluded the the injuries on the perpetrator were contracted at the initial confrontation inside.
Good man.