Manchester United and The Blame Game

[The Red Thinker]

https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...-and-the-blame-game?__twitter_impression=true

I feel this is a necessary discussion. The media has decided that Ole is not good enough for United and so has decided to give him the rough end of things while simultaneously giving others with equally bad results or worse an easier ride.

I’m not saying Ole doesn’t deserved to criticised. He does and he is still learning. But the over the top nonsense you hear from fans bashing him as the worst, when in his first full season he led us to top 4, augmented the squad with much better players and today, in a difficult 2020 with unique challenges, having had aterrible transfer window, we are one with away from 3rd with a game in hand. That too not far from the top.

 

[El Zoido]

Absolutely amazing article, needed to be said. A lot of so-called “Ole-inners” have been fighting this kind of idiocy for months. You know, the “we’re badly coached” brigade. Unfortunately the people who need to understand the message in that article still won’t get it.

 

[arthurka]

To be fair feck-ups like his non reaction on Wednesday are not helping.

 

[RUCK4444]

Feckin spot on that article is. Summarises every embarrassing opinion people let themselves believe about him whilst simultaneously ignoring any positive and exaggerating the negatives.

 

[VivaObertan]

Completely agree with the article. Laughable that the third comment in this thread is using a narrow loss to PSG as further proof, despite Ole having beaten PSG twice before already.

 

[Sassy Colin]

abd ?

 

[UmbroDays]

This article isn't even that good, I mean take this for example:

Solskjær has been more heavily criticised for leaving Fred on the field than Mikel Arteta, the tactically sophisticated, in-his-depth manager of the Premier League’s 14th-placed team, was for allowing David Luiz to stagger round like a Basil Fawlty tribute for 40 minutes at the Emirates on Sunday. And the shame just keeps piling up for Solskjær and United. In the Premier League, even if they win their game in hand at Burnley, they will still be behind Frank Lampard’s champions-elect on goal difference. Had Solskjær done his job properly, United would be six points clear at the top with a game in hand, defending their record-breaking 2019-20 title win in style.

How are you comparing taking off Fred who will be booked vs Arteta not taking off Luiz for a head injury - which are not even related issues. Then go and use this example in the paragraph before and not compare those two examples:

Andy Robertson got away with shoving Lionel Messi about the head in the first minute. Admittedly it was one of The Fiver’s favourite moments that year, watching Messi’s entitled confusion as he was unjustly exposed to the rougher extremes of Scotland’s principal elemental force, but Robertson was lucky not to be sent off. Jürgen Klopp noted Robertson’s loss of control, substituted him at half-time and then protected him by telling everyone Robertson had calf-knack.

Additionally, we shouldn't compare ourselves with Lampard - no one here is giving him plaudits, but we are comparing ourselves on who we should be beating. Why not compare us with Klopp? Or Jose? They will be ahead of us in the league and one of those managers smashed us 6-1 on our home turf. And only 1 team (Wolves) have an equal or worse goal difference at this stage.

I'm a nobody to United, but I've always said judge him when the end of the season placings look to be guaranteed and judge him then. But somehow saying he's the saviour or the bringer of destruction 9 games into the season is too early.

 

[BazzaBear]

Yeah, I read and enjoyed that article. Absolutely dripping with fully justified sarcasm.

 

[Conor]

It's just an article full of Whataboutisms, if anyone on this forum thinks Ole shouldn't be criticised for leaving Fred on the pitch for the second half, they should give their head a wobble.

 

[Okey]

To be fair, the author might as well be a Caf poster. He hasn't said anything that hasn't been argued here ad nauseam. I think it's fine for people to critique. Speak and let speak, I say. It'll be quite boring if we all just agreed on a point and nodded from the waist. This forum for one, would die a quick death!

 

[K Stand Knut]

This article isn't even that good, I mean take this for example:



How are you comparing taking off Fred who will be booked vs Arteta not taking off Luiz for a head injury - which are not even related issues. Then go and use this example in the paragraph before and not compare those two examples:



Additionally, we shouldn't compare ourselves with Lampard - no one here is giving him plaudits, but we are comparing ourselves on who we should be beating. Why not compare us with Klopp? Or Jose? Also teams who will be ahead of us and one of those managers smashed us 6-1 on our home turf. And only 1 team (Wolves) have an equal or worse goal difference at this stage.

I'm a nobody to United, but I've always said judge him when the end of the season placings look to be guaranteed and judge him then. But somehow saying he's the saviour or the bringer of destruction 9 games into the season is too early.

I think you’re spot on about waiting until the end of the season to judge people. I think the problem, or certainly, from my point of view, is that the level of criticism, and praise (although this mainly from United fans) from some corners is just so over the top and can change on a weekly basis, if not twice in a week.

My only exposure to the media these days, to try and avoid this shit, is through podcasts and some of the rhetoric from people on them is just bonkers.

Archie Ringtut said on the Guardian podcast yesterday that United are in ‘deep trouble’ if we can’t beat a team like PSG at home and that we have a serious mental issue because our players can’t play for 90 minutes.

It’s just bizarre. As a United fan, I think everyone , both OleIn-ers and OleOut-ers just need to calm down and judge people when it is fair.

I am an OleIn-er but can 100% understand the issues with his management and the arguments put forward by the OleOut-ers. However, we are considerably better off now than we were 2 years ago, IMO.

Consistency isn’t a new issue since Ole took over.

 

[Tom Cato]

It's just an article full of Whataboutisms, if anyone on this forum thinks Ole shouldn't be criticised for leaving Fred on the pitch for the second half, they should give their head a wobble.

You're missing the point of the substance.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Think the article was stating all the criticisms that have been said about Ole and then finding an argument in other incidents to debunk the criticism.

 

[Conor]

You're missing the point of the substance.

I'm not missing any point, thanks. The article is as stupid as the ole out crap that won't acknowledge any of the good.

 

[Sky1981]

Completely agree with the article. Laughable that the third comment in this thread is using a narrow loss to PSG as further proof, despite Ole having beaten PSG twice before already.

This irks me.

We beat psg once. Get on with it. It's not even a trophy and they did get back to us last night.

I still remember rawk in their glory bleating about yeah but we beat you 4-1 while we're winning the league. We used to laugh at them.

We're united winning a game against psg is a good win but nothing to be brag upon whole year long. Even moyes got a draw with munich.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Enjoyed that. Ole should not be exempt from criticism, of course, but it does seem like it is somewhat disproportionate to what is directed at other managers - especially Arteta.

 

[Nick7]

This irks me.

We beat psg once. Get on with it. It's not even a trophy and they did get back to us last night.

I still remember rawk in their glory bleating about yeah but we beat you 4-1 while we're winning the league. We used to laugh at them.

We're united winning a game against psg is a good win but nothing to be brag upon whole year long. Even moyes got a draw with munich.

Yeah I don’t get that argument. If we manage to get knocked out of the CL group stages, is it still an achievement that we beat PSG?

 

[UmbroDays]

Think the article was stating all the criticisms that have been said about Ole and then finding an argument in other incidents to debunk the criticism.

No no, go look at my post. They even bring up Klopp swapping Robertson because Messi got under his skin, but didn't compare that to Fred. Instead they compared the Fred situation to Arteta not subbing Luiz, even when those situations were not similar.

 

[izec]

The article is full of shit. You can post any pro Ole crap and his followers will jump on it

 

[Bobcat]

I think there are four reasons why Ole might gets unfairly criticised at times

1. Hes not from a big footballing nation. Lets be honest, Norway is shite at the international level and almost all of the big football managers come from one of the big nations. If his name was Oalo Gonzalo Soldado i bet he would not have not been under so much scrutiny
2. He does not have an impressive CV from before. No one abroad gives a rats arse about Norwegian football or Molde. So despite him winning them their first league in 100 years most people view it as a non-achievement
3. Hes an ex-player. And while that certainly will be a positive for most United fans, i think it works completely opposite for some others
4. Its the United job and any manager here will be under immense scrutiny for a myriad of reasons. There are still some pretty obvious anti-United biases in the press, so every time we hit a rough patch they shit out countless articles about how much of a crisis we are inn

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I think quite a few are misinterpreting the tone of a very silly, sarcastic article.

Either that, or they are in on the joke and merely extending it. I never know anymore.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Surely there's a middle point between the In and Out positions?

Ole has done a good job so far. He's sold the players most of us wanted sold, promoted the ones we wanted promoted and given youngsters their chance. The quality of the football is vastly improved and most of his signings have been good. Whoever comes in to replace him will inherit a young squad full of talent.

However, he has no experience at the top level so trusting him to take us to the next level is a complete leap of faith. Many of our established players (Pogba, Shaw, Lingard, Rashford and Martial) have either stagnated or gone backwards under him while Maguire and AWB, who both came in for big money, haven't really progressed. And some of his in-game decisions have been naive.

So it's possible to be at once grateful for the role he's played but also open to the possibility of getting a better manager, someone who can get more from our top players and produce results more consistently.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Surely there's a middle point between the In and Out positions?

Ole has done a good job so far. He's sold the players most of us wanted sold, promoted the ones we wanted promoted and given youngsters their chance. The quality of the football is vastly improved and most of his signings have been good. Whoever comes in to replace him will inherit a young squad full of talent.

However, he has no experience at the top level so trusting him to take us to the next level is a complete leap of faith. Many of our established players (Pogba, Shaw, Lingard, Rashford and Martial) have either stagnated or gone backwards under him while Maguire and AWB, who both came in for big money, haven't really progressed. And some of his in-game decisions have been naive.

So it's possible to be at once grateful for the role he's played but also open to the possibility of getting a better manager, someone who can get more from our top players and produce results more consistently.

I think a lot of people on this forum have this perspective, yes. It's hard to start a discussion about it though and even when you get into that discussion, it tends to get drowned out.

Personally I think Poch would improve us and that we should go for him at the end of the season. Ole has good qualities as a manager but, unfortunately, this seems to be his peak. Questions over whether he can get us to the next level.

 

[El Zoido]

It's just an article full of Whataboutisms, if anyone on this forum thinks Ole shouldn't be criticised for leaving Fred on the pitch for the second half, they should give their head a wobble.

Nobody said that, but it’s not like every other manager doesn’t make mistakes. We were already losing by the time he was sent off anyway. Ole felt it was worth keeping him on because he was critical to his tactics, maybe he puts Matic on and then Matic proceeds to get run through by Neymar, who knows? I agree that Fred should have come off, but we might still have lost the game. The fan reaction to this decision has been completely embarrassing.

 

[King7Eric]

It's just an article full of Whataboutisms, if anyone on this forum thinks Ole shouldn't be criticised for leaving Fred on the pitch for the second half, they should give their head a wobble.

I'm sure this must have been discussed to death on this forum, but I generally tend to avoid this place after defeats so don't knw what exactly was said. But regarding the bolded part, if Ole does hook Fred off at HT, don't you think it might send the message to the player that the manager doesn't trust him enough to keep his head? Sure it didn't work out in this case, but a manager showing faith in his player isn't anything new. I distinctly remember, in the 2009 CL semi's 2nd leg, Rooney had come into the game 1 yellow card away from being suspended for the final. When we went 3-0 up at the Emirates with half an hour to play, the commentators were literally screaming for SAF to take Rooney off to prevent him from risking a yellow. SAF promptly made 3 substitutions and bought off key players, but kept Rooney on.

Had Rooney gotten a yellow, I'm sure people would have blamed SAF for keeping him on and getting him suspended for the final. But the manager showed trust in his player and the player delivered on it. In this case Fred wasn't able to deliver on that trust, but I'd rather the manager give the opportunity to a well performing player to deliver on that trust, rather than blatantly showing him that he doesn't trust him to keep his head.

Yes, I understand that decision likely cost us the game, but sometimes one can think beyond a game to the wider ramifications.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'm sure this must have been discussed to death on this forum, but I generally tend to avoid this place after defeats so don't knw what exactly was said. But regarding the bolded part, if Ole does hook Fred off at HT, don't you think it might send the message to the player that the manager doesn't trust him enough to keep his head? Sure it didn't work out in this case, but a manager showing faith in his player isn't anything new. I distinctly remember, in the 2009 CL semi's 2nd leg, Rooney had come into the game 1 yellow card away from being suspended for the final. When we went 3-0 up at the Emirates with half an hour to play, the commentators were literally screaming for SAF to take Rooney off to prevent him from risking a yellow. SAF promptly made 3 substitutions and bought off key players, but kept Rooney on.

Had Rooney gotten a yellow, I'm sure people would have blamed SAF for keeping him on and getting him suspended for the final. But the manager showed trust in his player and the player delivered on it. In this case Fred wasn't able to deliver on that trust, but I'd rather the manager give the opportunity to a well performing player to deliver on that trust, rather than blatantly showing him that he doesn't trust him to keep his head.

Yes, I understand that decision likely cost us the game, but sometimes one can think beyond a game to the wider ramifications.

It's nothing to do with trusting Fred/the players... it's about not trusting the Ref or the PSG players.

I get the Rooney comparison but it's a different set of circumstances.... its like how people are saying "you don't have to take someone off at half time just 'cos they're on a booking" ... the context here was totally different as that first booking was not an normal booking.

If Fred's first half booking came for a routine tackle/foul, I don't think half as many people would have been asking for him to be subbed.

 

[King7Eric]

It's nothing to do with trusting Fred/the players... it's about not trusting the Ref or the PSG players.

I get it. Even I had been sitting with head in my hands when I saw Fred walk out for the 2nd half. But Fred is in the middle of his best run as a Utd player and playing with confidence, and I don't think it's inconceivable to think a player might construe this as a manager not trusting him. Maybe this played a part in Ole's thinking.

Look after the game I had been fuming too and had messaged my gf that Ole and Martial have cost us this game. But having thought about it, even though it turned out to be wrong decision, I can see why Ole might have kept him on. Not only for tactical reasons but also backing his player. Undoubtedly it cost us the game but it's not a decision of disastrous proportions it's being made out to be

 

[Jibbs]

What loads of garbage.

Ole has spent nearly 300 million. Got his choice of players every time. He is horribly inconsistent, has been exposed over and over again by different teams and managers, but the mediocrity aka Ole In brigade just can't see no wrong even if it means another trophy less season and many more to come under him.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I get it. Even I had been sitting with head in my hands when I saw Fred walk out for the 2nd half. But Fred is in the middle of his best run as a Utd player and playing with confidence, and I don't think it's inconceivable to think a player might construe this as a manager not trusting him. Maybe this played a part in Ole's thinking.

Look after the game I had been fuming too and had messaged my gf that Ole and Martial have cost us this game. But having thought about it, even though it turned out to be wrong decision, I can see why Ole might have kept him on. Not only for tactical reasons but also backing his player. Undoubtedly it cost us the game but it's not a decision of disastrous proportions it's being made out to be

I dunno - that would pretty poor on Ole's part if he couldn't convey that message to one of his players. Also his prioirty should be the team, not hurting someone's feelings... though I mean Fred's a pretty tough character - he has spent a lot of time out of the team under Ole and has been fine, so I don't think it would even be an issue.

 

[King7Eric]

I dunno - that would pretty poor on Ole's part if he couldn't convey that message to one of his players. Also his prioirty should be the team, not hurting someone's feelings... though I mean Fred's a pretty tough character - he has spent a lot of time out of the team under Ole and has been fine, so I don't think it would even be an issue.

Well that's the thing though. After being in and out of the side for a couple of years, he's finally becoming a mainstay and for the manager to take him off, not for tactical reasons, but because he doesn't trust him enough to be disciplined, I don't think it's too inconceivable to believe it might rankle with the player.

 

[soapythecat]

It's an article from the Guardian FFS. Clearly written by some woke wee prick who hasn't watched United this season.

 

[11101]

It's written like a parody.

The events of 2020 have provided incontrovertible proof that, when Manchester United win, it’s entirely down to Bruno Fernandes; and when they lose, it’s all because Ole’s still at the wheel, careering round another corner with a smile on his face.

Well that's what happens when you have a poorly coached team full of brilliant individuals. Every now and then one of them pulls something special out of the bag.

Robertson was lucky not to be sent off. Jürgen Klopp noted Robertson’s loss of control, substituted him at half-time and then protected him by telling everyone Robertson had calf-knack.

So undermine your whole point by stating what an actual top manager did, vs. what Ole did on Wednesday?

 

[Tony247]

A satire not to be taken seriously

 

[GenZRed]

Is the article stating that Ole is being unfairly criticised while the likes of Mikel Arteta and Frank Lampard get an easy ride?

That is how i interpret it.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

We’re Man Utd & we haven’t mounted a title challenge in the better part of a decade. Of course that isn’t Ole’s fault but any manager at such an underachieving club is going to be under the microscope. The German & Spanish press would be worse if Bayern/Barca/Madrid hadn’t got close to a title in this amount of time.

We are the biggest club in the world. There’s expectations we aren’t meeting.

 

[NJM78]

It's nothing to do with trusting Fred/the players... it's about not trusting the Ref or the PSG players.

I get the Rooney comparison but it's a different set of circumstances.... its like how people are saying "you don't have to take someone off at half time just 'cos they're on a booking" ... the context here was totally different as that first booking was an already booking.

If Fred's first half booking came for a routine tackle/foul, I don't think half as many people would have been asking for him to be subbed.

Exactly this, the comparisons and excuses are pretty weak. PSG, the ref and the fact Fred made countless mistimed tackles besides the headbutt were a clear and obvious reason to many why he should have been hooked at HT...to avoid what did and what was obviously going to happen.

 

[JohnnyKills]

It's an article from the Guardian FFS. Clearly written by some woke wee prick who hasn't watched United this season.

He's actually a big United fan and has written books about them if I'm not wrong.

 

[Grande]

abd ?

Aaron Ban-Dissaka?
Autism Bectrum Disorder?
Absessive Bompulsive?
Ao Be Dontinued?
Anternational Bussiness Dachines?
Automated Beller Dachine?
About Ben Davies?
Reading book for the slightly impatient?

 

[rotherham_red]

I think you’re spot on about waiting until the end of the season to judge people. I think the problem, or certainly, from my point of view, is that the level of criticism, and praise (although this mainly from United fans) from some corners is just so over the top and can change on a weekly basis, if not twice in a week.

My only exposure to the media these days, to try and avoid this shit, is through podcasts and some of the rhetoric from people on them is just bonkers.

Archie Ringtut said on the Guardian podcast yesterday that United are in ‘deep trouble’ if we can’t beat a team like PSG at home and that we have a serious mental issue because our players can’t play for 90 minutes.

It’s just bizarre. As a United fan, I think everyone , both OleIn-ers and OleOut-ers just need to calm down and judge people when it is fair.

I am an OleIn-er but can 100% understand the issues with his management and the arguments put forward by the OleOut-ers. However, we are considerably better off now than we were 2 years ago, IMO.

Consistency isn’t a new issue since Ole took over.

The irony, considering how much he salivates over the German teams - PSG beat Leipzig in similar circumstances, I didn't see the same reservations for them. Or, indeed, when this Utd side who are in 'deep trouble' comprehensively smashed them 5-0 a few weeks ago.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Another Ole in/out thread? Surprise surprise