Marcus Rashford (Out) | Ornstein: United want to keep, will only consider substantial bids

[dubplate warrior]

So Rashford "isn't that good", and the guy you want to replace him is Kvaratskhelia...

Yes, 100%

 

[Bastian]

Think it will suit two of three parties.

 

[BluesJr]

This thread will be a good barometer of vision. If we are to progress as a team he needs to be sold. I’m confident the new regime will feel similarly.

 

[didz]

Nah, not really IMO. I’ve been an advocate of a more team-oriented approach and have mentioned this for years in relation to Bruno and assists, but I draw the line a bit when it comes to goalscorers. We can’t just pass the buck around there, someone needs to score the goals, and if we want to achieve anything - they need to score enough of them. We can’t have a bunch of forwards struggling to score 10 goals, it simply won’t work. And in terms of ‘team play’, I don’t see Rashford’s game as too detrimental to us anyway. What IS detrimental to us is his form. If he were performing consistently at his best, then just being the tip of the spear that can run past and and beyond defenders and score goals is fine, because ultimately, someone needs to provide that threat in a top team. I’m happy for us to become less transition minded behind him, but whatever we do, I think it would be a big mistake to remove a threat that can scare top level defences in terms of pure athleticism and goals. It would make us a far weaker team IMO.

Even if Rashford goes, I’d be looking for a replacement who can offer similar qualities. Mbappé, Vinicius, Leao. Those are the only names that would make me indifferent to losing Rashford. Now on the other wing, I’m far more open minded, and that is because we have what Rashford offers on the other side. I don’t mind going for a less explosive right winger, a more skilful creator etc. But one of the two needs a proper direct threat. If we got one of those on the right wing, then I’d be happy to lose Rashford on the left, but we need one direct threat.

I'd like to see Rashford stay at the club and get back in form. He's had 2 really bad seasons, but we absolutely know there's a quality player in there and I like that he's one of our own.

However, if you take last season as Rashford's top level, then a 22-year-old Martinelli was only two behind him in terms of goal contributions. He also pressed more, passed more, and dribbled more effectively. Now you would think we could find somebody as good as Martinelli without chucking £120m at Milan. We may not even need to look outside our own squad.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

We won’t be looking to sell him, and I think we would struggle to replace him more than many think.

For me, it depends on what he wants. If he wants to go and experience something else then I’d be looking at 120m at least and let him go. We’d need a top forward who can come in and out up big numbers and ready to do it against the big and small teams to come in, and there aren’t many sure things for that, and they will cost the same as we’d sell him for.

You make it sound like Rashford regularly does these things.

I don’t think we’ll sell him, I doubt the new regime would have the balls to do it. Even if it made sense buisness wise with say a 120 mil offer and getting his wages off the books. I just can’t see it happening. He is as many have said the poster boy and given his work outside of football it would be a hell of a thing to move him on.

 

[Jam]

Honestly for £100m and his wages off the books? I’d agree.

Rashford is an incredibly frustrating figure. He’s given me amazing memories and I’ll respect what he has achieved with the club but it could have been so much more. He really could have been a club legend.

But at the same time, with our transfer track record, god forbid what we end up spending it on.

 

[Rojofiam]

Yes, 100%

He should avoid the Premier League.

Even if he played for the best team in the league, he'd be a 15 G/A per season type of winger. Lack of space after receiving the ball as well as getting double of triple teamed means he'd struggle to adapt.

 

[LeeroyBrown22]

I think he gets sold if a big enough offer comes in it would make a massive difference in the new ffp era.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I'd try and sell for as much as we can get because for every goal he scores he allows the opposition to build play unabated without applying much resistance. And I don't really rate him that highly, and if the club want to replace the goals then sign a inside forward with potential elite ball striking ability who will also help us apply a well coordinated press high up the pitch.

It would rely on us making the most of Højlund which are we set up for?

The money could get us out of FFP trouble and save a ridiculous salary.

In terms of inside forwards that fit the bill it’s also a very expensive list unless we go for potential and even then it’s £30/40m+ for the better fits so if that’s the case then we’re looking at maybe 2/3 players worth that risk.

 

[Lash]

Nah, not really IMO. I’ve been an advocate of a more team-oriented approach and have mentioned this for years in relation to Bruno and assists, but I draw the line a bit when it comes to goalscorers. We can’t just pass the buck around there, someone needs to score the goals, and if we want to achieve anything - they need to score enough of them. We can’t have a bunch of forwards struggling to score 10 goals, it simply won’t work. And in terms of ‘team play’, I don’t see Rashford’s game as too detrimental to us anyway. What IS detrimental to us is his form. If he were performing consistently at his best, then just being the tip of the spear that can run past and and beyond defenders and score goals is fine, because ultimately, someone needs to provide that threat in a top team. I’m happy for us to become less transition minded behind him, but whatever we do, I think it would be a big mistake to remove a threat that can scare top level defences in terms of pure athleticism and goals. It would make us a far weaker team IMO.

Even if Rashford goes, I’d be looking for a replacement who can offer similar qualities. Mbappé, Vinicius, Leao. Those are the only names that would make me indifferent to losing Rashford. Now on the other wing, I’m far more open minded, and that is because we have what Rashford offers on the other side. I don’t mind going for a less explosive right winger, a more skilful creator etc. But one of the two needs a proper direct threat. If we got one of those on the right wing, then I’d be happy to lose Rashford on the left, but we need one direct threat.

I would suggest we get a better squad with our wingers playing for our strikers. I.e. Hojlund and another striker are the main source of goals - for arguments sake here, let's say we replace rashford with Ramos from PSG and Williams from Bilbao. We've arguably taken "goals" out the team, but I bet we score more overall. We'd also expect Garnacho to contribute a few more as he matures.

The bolded goes hand in hand surely? If he's not scoring or creating much, his "style" is to walk about the pitch and not work for the team. All I'm really seeing is you're asking for a player who has athleticism and is direct - which I would want too. That would be great if the goals came from that winger, but I don't think it's really necessary to pigeon-hole our left winger's style to what Rashford does.

 

[mikeyt]

Would be a smart move for anything £80-£100million. Given age, wage and form I’d let him go for sure.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Yes, 100%

Last season I would have agreed but I think he's regressed a lot.

 

[talking robot]

I’d sell him for 60 million pounds to be honest. No way he goes for 100

 

[Von Mistelroum]

This thread will be a good barometer of vision. If we are to progress as a team he needs to be sold. I’m confident the new regime will feel similarly.

Very much agree with the first part, but I don't think the new regime will see it that way. I don't think anyone who's English and part of the football landscape seems able to see Rashford as anything other than what the media portray. It's like a mass hallucination or something. I constantly hear about what a world class player he is, just going through a rough patch...bonkers!

 

[Cutch]

I'd sell him. Not to sound all Roy Keane but he doesn't appear to have the hunger and desire needed. He doesn't play like he does anyway, doesn't look like he enjoys the game and some of his off the pitch behaviour is now also very questionable.

We need a team of young hungry footballers that will absolutely run themselves into the ground for the cause the way Garnacho does and we can't afford any passengers in this new era. I think we should move on from his style which is head down, greedy and very often not intelligent favouring technical qualities and making smart choices on and off the ball.

He'd also save us a fortune on the wage bill, allow us to perhaps start giving out more sensible contracts and as home grown his fee would be great for FFP.

 

[Lash]

It would rely on us making the most of Højlund which are we set up for?

The money could get us out of FFP trouble and save a ridiculous salary.

In terms of inside forwards that fit the bill it’s also a very expensive list unless we go for potential and even then it’s £30/40m+ for the better fits so if that’s the case then we’re looking at maybe 2/3 players worth that risk.

Sorry, I just realised I repeated what you said really. As I mentioned in my above post, we could get winger and a striker for what we potentially get for Rashford. Or at least from an FFP perspective it opens it right up.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

@Adnan Who would you have a young replacement then?

Id be down if we’re going reasonable like for like:

1. Tel

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Sorry, I just realised I repeated what you said really. As I mentioned in my above post, we could get winger and a striker for what we potentially get for Rashford. Or at least from an FFP perspective it opens it right up.

It needs really careful thought because he can be an incredibly dangerous forward but we’ve moved to Højlund who needs supply.

I think it’s a very big change that I’d trust us to do correctly 18months from now with INEOS’ football structure having been in place for some time.

 

[USREDEVIL]

It will take an absolutely outrageous offer for PSG to take our prized possession off our greedy...er hands.

 

[Pughnichi]

It baffles me to read people still hoping he can hit form.

we can’t tolerate or trust this type of player. We didn’t wait for Cantona, Beckham, Giggs, RVN, Rooney etc to hit form. They were great players because they were consistent.

and whilst having a few off games is acceptable, prolonged periods (9 months in Rashfords case) is not good enough and shouldn’t be tolerated. More so from a top earner. I don’t care how many school children he’s fed, it bares no significance to what he offers Manchester United.

I’d even argue the same if he goes on a run of 5 in 5. I don’t trust him and would be confident to guarantee another Barron spell wouldn’t be too far away

get rid

 

[Lash]

It needs really careful thought because he can be an incredibly dangerous forward but we’ve moved to Højlund who needs supply.

I think it’s a very big change that I’d trust us to do correctly 18months from now with INEOS’ football structure having been in place for some time.

I think in general we need to think less of players we rely on, more on the positions we expect our chance to be created for and have multiple options within those positions/roles.

I have actually a bit more faith if the recruitment teams have more power than the clear manager power we've had in player acquisition, but I think 18 months we'll see a much clearer picture of how we want to play and recruit for that. Which is good news for the future, but pretty middling for now.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

@Adnan Who would you have a young replacement then?

Id be down if we’re going reasonable like for like:

1. Tel

An 18 year old with 3 Bundesliga goals to replace a player that's usually good for 20+ goals a season when we have scoring issues is not the right move.

We have to be in the market for Kvaratskhelia or Leao or someone a bit more proven, Hojlund and Garnacho will have ups and downs but we need consistency to support them.

 

[SER19]

This would be like christmas

 

[Adnan]

It would rely on us making the most of Højlund which are we set up for?

The money could get us out of FFP trouble and save a ridiculous salary.

In terms of inside forwards that fit the bill it’s also a very expensive list unless we go for potential and even then it’s £30/40m+ for the better fits so if that’s the case then we’re looking at maybe 2/3 players worth that risk.

I think making the most of any player requires everyone to do the bare minimum. Rashford doesn't do the bare minimum imo and plays for himself rather than the team. The amount of times I've seen him just allow the opposition to build play through the first phase is infuriating and it creates a dysfunctional aspect in our out of possession game, which is very detrimental to the team as a whole.

I think the money we can generate from his sale would be a massive boost towards our FFP situation and it would allow us to do more in the transfer window

I'm a big believer in potential, and imo we should replace him with someone who has similar attributes but with the added bonus of having the appetite to help apply the press out of possession. I think we've been linked to the young French kid from Bayern, and he potentially has elite ball striking ability on both feet and can be utilised on either side unlike Rashford who it seems only favours the left. I'm sure there's other players as well, but for me if we replaced Rashford with a younger player who applied himself with and without the ball, then we'd be better as a collective unit, rather than playing to the strengths of one or two players in transition.

 

[OleGunnar20]

Honestly I think 60m is fine, though his wages are a massive saving on Mbappe so that's less of an issue at PSG. Coming off of his last hot season he was worth far more, but not now.

Realistically - who else would be in for him? Bayern maybe? Some skint Italian club? I don't think we'd have the leverage to go above 60 or so.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

It baffles me to read people still hoping he can hit form.

we can’t tolerate or trust this type of player. We didn’t wait for Cantona, Beckham, Giggs, RVN, Rooney etc to hit form. They were great players because they were consistent.

and whilst having a few off games is acceptable, prolonged periods (9 months in Rashfords case) is not good enough and shouldn’t be tolerated. More so from a top earner. I don’t care how many school children he’s fed, it bares no significance to what he offers Manchester United.

I’d even argue the same if he goes on a run of 5 in 5. I don’t trust him and would be confident to guarantee another Barron spell wouldn’t be too far away

get rid

Do you trust Hojlund?

 

[V.O.]

An 18 year old with 3 Bundesliga goals to replace a player that's usually good for 20 goals + a season when we have scoring issues is not the right move.

We have to be in the market for Kvaratskhelia or Leao.

I think we've tried chucking money at the biggest available star in the position we're after a few times and it's not going so well.

I'd much prefer to see what kind of sensible, young and/or under the radar type signings our new recruitment people could come up with. The kind of signings Milan and Napoli made when they got those two players from Lille and the Georgian league, rather than putting somebody else on 400k a week.

 

[CM]

Rashford is a difficult player to assess because you get two wildly different versions of him depending on whether he is playing with confidence or not. Even at his best he has some shortcomings as a footballer but he can be an extremely good asset as a counter attacking player.

The biggest concern for me is that he looks like he absolutely hates playing football when it's not going well for him. That can't be healthy for him as an individual but it's also the sort of thing that can rub off on other players around him. You'd like to think that the Brailsford 'marginal gains' mantra might help revitalise him but I do also wonder whether a complete change of environment might be best for him.

Rashford is approaching what should be his peak and for 2 of the last 3 seasons he has been really off it. If PSG did come knocking with a big bid you'd have to at least consider it.

 

[Pughnichi]

Do you trust Hojlund?

At the moment, yes.

After a settling in period in a struggling team I think you’ll struggle for support with this arguement. Even when he wasn’t scoring, he was showing signs of what he’s capable of.

You’re welcome to wait until he has a 9 month period of diabolical performances and come back to ask that question. And I suspect my answer will then be different.

 

[Get In Scholesy]

Same rumor every year.

Yep, he’s PSG’s Gaitán

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I think in general we need to think less of players we rely on, more on the positions we expect our chance to be created for and have multiple options within those positions/roles.

I have actually a bit more faith if the recruitment teams have more power than the clear manager power we've had in player acquisition, but I think 18 months we'll see a much clearer picture of how we want to play and recruit for that. Which is good news for the future, but pretty middling for now.

An 18 year old with 3 Bundesliga goals to replace a player that's usually good for 20 goals + a season when we have scoring issues is not the right move.

I’ll just answer both at the same time.

For me Rashford is not the priority to change for the biggest improvement to our side and while I agree he’s not shown the consistency of Son, Salah or other key inside forwards for other clubs I’m not sure we’re in the right place further back to lose his goal threat unless we do some serious and quick surgery.

We need to improve the profile in our defence and midfield. We need physically and technically proficient players because right now we’re getting killed in midfield because there is too much space. We don’t have the legs to cover it.

Essentially selling Rashford would be a commitment to the final style of football I think Ten Hag is after but I’m not sure we’ve got the foundations ready for that change. Højlund was however a big step away from Rashford.

 

[klayton88]

Last season I would have agreed but I think he's regressed a lot.

It's because his heart is in Manchester.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I think making the most of any player requires everyone to do the bare minimum. Rashford doesn't do the bare minimum imo and plays for himself rather than the team. The amount of times I've seen him just allow the opposition to build play through the first phase is infuriating and it creates a dysfunctional aspect in our out of possession game, which is very detrimental to the team as a whole.

I think the money we can generate from his sale would be a massive boost towards our FFP situation and it would allow us to do more in the transfer window

I'm a big believer in potential, and imo we should replace him with someone who has similar attributes but with the added bonus of having the appetite to help apply the press out of possession. I think we've been linked to the young French kid from Bayern, and he potentially has elite ball striking ability on both feet and can be utilised on either side unlike Rashford who it seems only favours the left. I'm sure there's other players as well, but for me if we replaced Rashford with a younger player who applied himself with and without the ball, then we'd be better as a collective unit, rather than playing to the strengths of one or two players in transition.

Which is why I then look at someone like Nico Williams as a potential option but you’ve not got the same ball striking there more the carrier and physicality.

I just think it’s a really awkward one unless we moved Garnacho to LW maybe?

The way we want to play we need every player pressing and together and so any weak links on that front need pruning. We’ve seen the difference young hungry talent can make so if we do sell I hope we invest in youth and not some 28/9 year old.

I think if you’re looking obvious elite potential it’s got to be Tel.

 

[GledTheRed]

PSG would be perfect for him, he's lost his desire.

 

[Ali Dia]

it’s all moot anyway, there’s absolutely no way the new owners sell him without having a proper look at him first. I’m sure Brailsford and the new staff will fancy themselves to get more consistency out of him and to put a much better team around him on the pitch. I can’t see us selling unless it’s a crazy bid given the new money behind us and their probable desire to work together. He’s surely on his last chance as the main guy next season.

 

[USREDEVIL]

it’s all moot anyway, there’s absolutely no way the new owners sell him without having a proper look at him first. I’m sure Brailsford and the new staff will fancy themselves to get more consistency out of him and to put a much better team around him on the pitch. I can’t see us selling unless it’s a crazy bid given the new money behind us. He’s surely on his last chance though as the main guy.

I don't know about that. I'm getting the impression they can analyze things without having to have first hand experience. Having a better team around him is fine, but his performances should be analyzed by his own efforts and contributions. As a winger he's expected to make things happen, track back some, feed the striker and also have some shots himself. Have seen very little of that for a while now. Yes he had a great season but that happens to a lot of players that end up going back to where they normally are.

 

[DWelbz19]

I’d be so-so on a Rashford departure. I do think his level of performance when he isn’t scoring or assisting is generally weak, but I think replacing him is easier said than done.

 

[Pughnichi]

it’s all moot anyway, there’s absolutely no way the new owners sell him without having a proper look at him first. I’m sure Brailsford and the new staff will fancy themselves to get more consistency out of him and to put a much better team around him on the pitch. I can’t see us selling unless it’s a crazy bid given the new money behind us. He’s surely on his last chance though as the main guy.

Not suggesting it’s what you believe should happen but this line frustrates me. That they want to come in and see what he can do. Surely given the takeover talks that have rumbled on for circa 12 months they would have been paying some attention and already seen what he is offering

 

[Adnan]

Which is why I then look at someone like Nico Williams as a potential option but you’ve not got the same ball striking there more the carrier and physicality.

I just think it’s a really awkward one unless we moved Garnacho to LW maybe?

The way we want to play we need every player pressing and together and so any weak links on that front need pruning. We’ve seen the difference young hungry talent can make so if we do sell I hope we invest in youth and not some 28/9 year old.

I think if you’re looking obvious elite potential it’s got to be Tel.

I completely agree.

The way teams are being developed in the present day, ball striking ability has become more and more important for managers who want to play a proactive attacking style of play. That's one of the reasons Cody Gakpo was wanted by both ten Hag and Klopp. The inside forward who can contribute with goals is a valuable commodity but it can't come at the expense of a lack of closing down or pressing. Because if it does, then you as a player are compromising the collective effort as a whole and render the pressing from the front as being ineffective.

I think a question was posed further up about if Hojlund could be trusted? And I trust Hojlund to do whatever is necessary for the team ahead of Rashford because from what I've seen of Hojlund, he plays for the team whether that is in-possession or out of possession.

 

[redflash]

I don't get so many people saying sell him so cheap. The acid test is if we sell him can we get top dollar. He's got a long term contract and is one of the most marketable players we have. I'd be upset with anything short of 100m and I would expect a fee closer to 120/130m.

Yes he's been out of form and lacks consistency but in France I think he would do very well.