Number of attackers on the pitch

[Skills]

If you look at Man City & Liverpool's teams over the last few years, you'll notice they have 5 attackers on the pitch most of the time. By attackers, I mean players who's jobs are to contribute heavily to getting them goals by assisting or scoring.

Liverpool :
Mane, Salah, Firmino, Robertson & Trent

Man City :
Aguero, Sterling, David Silva, Kevin De Bruyne, Sane/Bernardo

The composition of the attacking players vary quite a bit between both clubs. For example, Liverpool have two very, very attacking full backs while Man City often play with 2 very, very attacking CMs. But the numbers are key, these players are in positions to hurt the opposition. They've then just built the rest of the team around the attackers, to be defensively solid and provide control while letting these guys occupy positions that hurt the opposition. Liverpool do it with a very solid but unimaginative midfield, and City for the most part don't put as much attacking responsibility on their full backs. They still need to contribute in terms of width, cut backs but they don't need to put up Robertson or TAA type of numbers.

We've struggled for a long time with goals & both of these teams have exposed our lack of goal scoring prowess. It's not just because of the lack of quality, but simply we don't have enough players on the pitch in positions that can cause damage. But I think we are closer to getting there, than we've been in a long time. A line up with :

Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Bruno & James/Greenwood would be us finally fielding enough attackers on the pitch to cause enough damage. We don't need to start from scratch and buy attacking full-backs, but we should use what we have to it's best potential.

If Pogba goes, we need to replace him with another CM who can attack and provide goals/assists. It doesn't mean we put more of a burden on (one) of the other 4 players, because it's just not enough. We can address quality but having enough of them on the pitch is just as important.

 

[Ekeke]

If you look at Man City & Liverpool's teams over the last few years, you'll notice they have 5 attackers on the pitch most of the time. By attackers, I mean players who's jobs are to contribute heavily to getting them goals by assisting or scoring.

Liverpool :
Mane, Salah, Firmino, Robertson & Trent

Man City :
Aguero, Sterling, David Silva, Kevin De Bruyne, Sane/Bernardo

The composition of the attacking players vary quite a bit between both clubs. For example, Liverpool have two very, very attacking full backs while Man City often play with 2 very, very attacking CMs. But the numbers are key, these players are in positions to hurt the opposition. They've then just built the rest of the team around the attackers, to be defensively solid and provide control while letting these guys occupy positions that hurt the opposition. Liverpool do it with a very solid but unimaginative midfield, and City for the most part don't put as much attacking responsibility on their full backs. They still need to contribute in terms of width, cut backs but they don't need to put up Robertson or TAA type of numbers.

We've struggled for a long time with goals & both of these teams have exposed our lack of goal scoring prowess. It's not just because of the lack of quality, but simply we don't have enough players on the pitch in positions that can cause damage. But I think we are closer to getting there, than we've been in a long time. A line up with :

Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Bruno & James/Greenwood would be us finally fielding enough attackers on the pitch to cause enough damage. We don't need to start from scratch and buy attacking full-backs, but we should use what we have to it's best potential.

If Pogba goes, we need to replace him with another CM who can attack and provide goals/assists. It doesn't mean we put more of a burden on (one) of the other 4 players, because it's just not enough. We can address quality but having enough of them on the pitch is just as important.

Last season before Pogba's injury we had Pogba from DM, Andreas from AM, Rashford from LW, James from RW and Martial as the striker. Thats 5 attackers from our 4-2-3-1

Our 5 just werent as good as Liverpool and City's and Pogba trying to do it from a deep position instead of being far up the pitch last season predictably meant he wasnt getting on the scoresheet as much.

Liverpool also have a better defense so they can concentrate more on attacking play especially with pushing the fullbacks forward, City try to dominate the ball so they have less defending to do but I think we've seen this season that can be exposed. Last season people were talking about them being unbeatable and this season they've lost 7 games in the league alone. City have a more risky strat that can work, but needs to be done on a knife edge and done perfectly or you fall off.

 

[arnie_ni]

We can play like city with 2 attack mind CMs in bruno and pogba.

Then a front 3 of sancho martial and rashford.

However i think we would need a better DM than we have. I dont think McT or Fred are best suited to that role as they are disciplined enough.

They work well together with one attacking player beside them which would likely be the lineup in bigger games.

 

[Skills]

Last season before Pogba's injury we had Pogba from DM, Andreas from AM, Rashford from LW, James from RW and Martial as the striker. Thats 5 attackers from our 4-2-3-1

Our 5 just werent as good as Liverpool and City's and Pogba trying to do it from a deep position instead of being far up the pitch last season predictably meant he wasnt getting on the scoresheet as much.

Liverpool also have a better defense so they can concentrate more on attacking play especially with pushing the fullbacks forward, City try to dominate the ball so they have less defending to do but I think we've seen this season that can be exposed. Last season people were talking about them being unbeatable and this season they've lost 7 games in the league alone. City have a more risky strat that can work, but needs to be done on a knife edge and done perfectly or you fall off.

That's the thing though, Pogba was never actually in the position to contribute goals and assists. So is it fair to count him as an attacker when you compare him to the positions our rivals 'attackers' occupy?

What you've said there is right though. The city way is more risky as your giving up solidarity in the middle but the potential reward is very high. But going down the Liverpool way is also less efficient as we then have to replace more of our players (will end up way more expensive) and hope the signings we make are right, so could be another couple of years down the drain.

 

[Ekeke]

That's the thing though, Pogba was never actually in the position to contribute goals and assists. So is it fair to count him as an attacker when you compare him to the positions our rivals 'attackers' occupy?

What you've said there is right though. The city way is more risky as your giving up solidarity in the middle but the potential reward is very high. But going down the Liverpool way is also less efficient as we then have to replace more of our players (will end up way more expensive) and hope the signings we make are right, so could be another couple of years down the drain.

Well he did have more key passes than any other player in the league from a DM position that played more than 1 game.

I was completely against using him in that position because I think he switches off too much defensively playing there for United, unlike when he did a good job for France when he was focused. But he did get the ball to our players who then had a shot - those could be assists if the players finished better.

 

[Skills]

Well he did have more key passes than any other player in the league from a DM position that played more than 1 game.

I was completely against using him in that position because I think he switches off too much defensively playing there for United, unlike when he did a good job for France when he was focused. But he did get the ball to our players who then had a shot - those could be assists if the players finished better.

Fair but those numbers are great for a DM. How does that production then compare to what TAA/Robertson/De Bruyne/Silva are providing for their teams as one of their attacking 5?

 

[Ekeke]

Fair but how does that production then compare to what TAA/Robertson/De Bruyne/Silva are providing for their teams as one of their attacking 5?

Yeah its not as good but I think thats part of the 4-2-3-1 formation we're using.

If I had to say I dont think that formation suits Pogba at all. The 3 in midfield did the season before where he could drive forward from slightly deeper than the AM role in a 4-2-3-1. And now with Bruno here they'd have to share that responsibility a bit.

4-3-3 again but we'd need either another great CB to partner Maguire, or a defensive DM specialist to hold while Pogba and Fernandes get forward to attack. For example if we had either Soyuncu next to Maguire, or Ndidi behind Pogba and Fernandes I think we could pull it off. I dont think we'll sign either of them but thats the standard I think we'd need to be defensively solid whilst using Fernandes and Pogba as CMs in a 3. Lindelof and Fred in those positions are not going to cut it.

 

[Skills]

Yeah its not as good but I think thats part of the 4-2-3-1 formation we're using.

If I had to say I dont think that formation suits Pogba at all. The 3 in midfield did the season before where he could drive forward from slightly deeper than the AM role in a 4-2-3-1. And now with Bruno here they'd have to share that responsibility a bit.

4-3-3 again but we'd need either another great CB to partner Maguire, or a defensive DM specialist to hold while Pogba and Fernandes get forward to attack. For example if we had either Soyuncu next to Maguire, or Ndidi behind Pogba and Fernandes I think we could pull it off. I dont think we'll sign either of them but thats the standard I think we'd need to be defensively solid whilst using Fernandes and Pogba as CMs in a 3. Lindelof and Fred in those positions are not going to cut it.

Agreed it's not Pogba's fault. He's just not put in the type of position to provide that kind of attacking production.

And I tend to agree with the rest of the post as well. But for me, it's definitely the most efficient way of completing this team, as then it's only really missing 3 pieces (DM, CB and RW).

 

[DWelbz19]

If he stays and we get our dream RW (Sancho), it really looks tasty.

If Pogba leaves it’s so difficult because there’s genuinely nobody in world football who puts the numbers Paul Pogba can from central midfield.

Pogba got 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games last season in the PL.

The only players who came close or bettered in central positions were either genuine no.10s — Bruno; Sarabia etc, or the very rare exception like David Silva, who played as an actual central midfielder.

I’m just looking at sheer G/A this season and I can’t see many.

Some ‘standouts’ in terms of goals and assists this season of who I think play most centrally;
Dele Alli; Luis Alberto; Lorenzo Pellegrini; Santi Cazorla (heh); Wylan Cyprien; Christopher Nkunku; Donny Van De Beek

It’s not the most glamorous list ever. Underlined the ones who seem most interesting to me (I.E. who look like they could actually play in central midfield). The rest are hybrid no.10’s who also play out wide etc. Ignored some other names like Havertz, Grealish etc. as those are genuine attackers to me and not to be compared to central midfielders.
——
Also just shows you just how rare of a player Paul Pogba is.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Not everything should be judged based on quantity. It depends on how the manager wants the team to play. 06/07 starting XI for example has Rooney, Ronaldo & Saha only for the contribution to goals. And if that team exists and same playing style were applied now, we would still be challenging the league for sure.

Ole can always rely on 4 players for that goals contribution on the pitch, at the same time having enough number of players who can contribute to goals on the bench that he can bring in or throw in more attackers from the our bench option. We can end up throw in more forwards like switching to 424 or 442 by bring in Ighalo when we need to score.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I'd say we have attacked with five players. This season, Ole, more often than not, has decided to add one of the full backs to our attack. Depending on which side the ball has been on is where you would usually see the full back attack, leaving the the winger on the same side to finding pockets of space inside. Earlier on in the season it would often look like:

Martial
Shaw Rashford Pereira James

Or

Martial
Rashford Pereira James Wan-Bissaka

Very rare did we see our midfielders push too high. Even when Pogba started the season, we'd very rarely see him pushed too high up. Ole used him more like a deep lying playmaker than a box to box player.

That said, it certainly is an option, and the thought of an attack consisting of Martial, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno and Pogba is very exciting to say the least. It would also, as you said, be more suitable for our current full backs (well, Shaw and Wan-Bissaka) to play the more inverted full back role, where responsibility lies with supporting play and stopping any potential counters, rather than overlapping and putting in crosses.

Football is about balance, and it'll be up to Ole to find the correct balance next season. Ultimately, I just think we didn't have the quality at our disposal to break teams down at will with the players we had at the start of the season. You'd expect the potential attacking five to be a lot different. I mean, we've already seen what Bruno has added to our attack since joining.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

If he stays and we get our dream RW (Sancho), it really looks tasty.

If Pogba leaves it’s so difficult because there’s genuinely nobody in world football who puts the numbers Paul Pogba can from central midfield.

Pogba got 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games last season in the PL.

The only players who came close or bettered in central positions were either genuine no.10s — Bruno; Sarabia etc, or the very rare exception like David Silva, who played as an actual central midfielder.

I’m just looking at sheer G/A this season and I can’t see many.

Some ‘standouts’ in terms of goals and assists this season of who I think play most centrally;
Dele Alli; Luis Alberto; Lorenzo Pellegrini; Santi Cazorla (heh); Wylan Cyprien; Christopher Nkunku; Donny Van De Beek

It’s not the most glamorous list ever. Underlined the ones who seem most interesting to me (I.E. who look like they could actually play in central midfield). The rest are hybrid no.10’s who also play out wide etc. Ignored some other names like Havertz, Grealish etc. as those are genuine attackers to me and not to be compared to central midfielders.
——
Also just shows you just how rare of a player Paul Pogba is.

Think this is the reason why Ole is so desperate to keep him, and as he said when he first arrived, someone "you'd build a team around".

 

[Skills]

I'd say we have attacked with five players. This season, Ole, more often than not, has decided to add one of the full backs to our attack. Depending on which side the ball has been on is where you would usually see the full back attack, leaving the the winger on the same side to finding pockets of space inside. Earlier on in the season it would often look like:

Martial
Shaw Rashford Pereira James

Or

Martial
Rashford Pereira James Wan-Bissaka

Very rare did we see our midfielders push too high. Even when Pogba started the season, we'd very rarely see him pushed too high up. Ole used him more like a deep lying playmaker than a box to box player.

That said, it certainly is an option, and the thought of an attack consisting of Martial, Rashford, Sancho, Bruno and Pogba is very exciting to say the least. It would also, as you said, be more suitable for our current full backs (well, Shaw and Wan-Bissaka) to play the more inverted full back role, where responsibility lies with supporting play and stopping any potential counters, rather than overlapping and putting in crosses.

Football is about balance, and it'll be up to Ole to find the correct balance next season. Ultimately, I just think we didn't have the quality at our disposal to break teams down at will with the players we had at the start of the season. You'd expect the potential attacking five to be a lot different. I mean, we've already seen what Bruno has added to our attack since joining.

I agree with what you say but the problem there is that one of those 5 is just not very comfortable in the attacking third. To ask Shaw or AWB to be as creative as Robertson or TAA is just unfair & is setting them up for failure. And like you said, attacking through the middle is recognising our full backs strengths/weaknesses.

In many ways, now I think about it when you're trying to win a game (as in 90% of the games you'll play) you'll end up with 5 players playing as attackers. It's almost kind of inevitable - that you'll have your 3 forwards + combination of fullbacks/midfielders attacking. But it's just recognising where your teams strengths/weaknesses are - and putting the 5 players who can do the most damage in those attacking positions and adjusting the other players for that outcome. I.e. I want Pogba as one of that 5 rather than AWB or Shaw.

To me, balance is all about maximising attacking potential first & then fitting the other pieces around to plug the gap at the back. People often forget that Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson and TAA were at Liverpool before they got the defensive counter balances like Fabinho, Allison and Van Djik. Even if you go back to Conte's title winning Chelsea they played 2 wing backs, and 3 forwards. With Kante, Matic & 3 CBs providing the defensive counter balance.

But yeah, there is a lot of potential there already in many. We've just to got to find a way to make the most of what's at hand.

 

[Skills]

If he stays and we get our dream RW (Sancho), it really looks tasty.

If Pogba leaves it’s so difficult because there’s genuinely nobody in world football who puts the numbers Paul Pogba can from central midfield.

Pogba got 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games last season in the PL.

The only players who came close or bettered in central positions were either genuine no.10s — Bruno; Sarabia etc, or the very rare exception like David Silva, who played as an actual central midfielder.

I’m just looking at sheer G/A this season and I can’t see many.

Some ‘standouts’ in terms of goals and assists this season of who I think play most centrally;
Dele Alli; Luis Alberto; Lorenzo Pellegrini; Santi Cazorla (heh); Wylan Cyprien; Christopher Nkunku; Donny Van De Beek

It’s not the most glamorous list ever. Underlined the ones who seem most interesting to me (I.E. who look like they could actually play in central midfield). The rest are hybrid no.10’s who also play out wide etc. Ignored some other names like Havertz, Grealish etc. as those are genuine attackers to me and not to be compared to central midfielders.
——
Also just shows you just how rare of a player Paul Pogba is.

Yeah this is a good post. Losing Pogba would put us back quite far, because replacing him is very difficult task. It'll also mean we then almost certainly need to upgrade one of the full backs (and it has to be a productive fullback) and it just makes the whole process a lot more expensive and more painful. Getting one signing is difficult enough, but then having to make 2 makes it far more risky, difficult & make the teething pains even longer.

 

[Rozay]

This is a really good topic. It’s a frustration I also held a fair bit when everyone was getting on Martial’s back during January. We were going into a few games where we only had one player on the pitch who could realistically score a goal.

 

[Brightonian]

Rashford Martial Sancho*
----------Pogba Bruno

*Greenwood/James as things stand

Should do the trick.

 

[Skills]

Rashford Martial Sancho*
----------Pogba Bruno

*Greenwood/James as things stand

Should do the trick.

Agreed. Even without Sancho that 5 can make us comfortably the 3rd best team in the league & address our problems against teams we "should" be beating. Sancho if we can get our hands on him, is the piece that catapults us into Man City/Liverpool territory as long as the other 5 on the pitch do their job (DM and Maguire's partner is where there are some question marks).

 

[Skills]

No surprise, that when we put enough attackers on the pitch that we started to look more threatening.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Exactly, it's not a rocket science.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Liverpool :
Mane, Salah, Firmino, Robertson & Trent

Man City :
Aguero, Sterling, David Silva, Kevin De Bruyne, Sane/Bernardo

3 Fundamentals?

• Width, left and right.
• Creativity, supplier (2 minimum).
• Clinical ruthless finishing (at least 1).

United:

• Nope, right width is still a problem, pain in the..
• Creativity, supplier, finally +2 (Bruno and Pogba), need to play both though.
• No ruthless finisher, none really. Rash and Mart are the closest but still inconsistent.

 

[DWelbz19]

3 Fundamentals?

• Width, left and right.
• Creativity, supplier (2 minimum).
• Clinical ruthless finishing (at least 1).

United:

• Nope, right width is still a problem, pain in the..
• Creativity, supplier, finally +2 (Bruno and Pogba), need to play both though.
• No ruthless finisher, none really. Rash and Mart are the closest but still inconsistent.

Martial is a really good finisher, he just doesn’t take anywhere near enough shots. His finishing percentage is one of the best in the league. Needs to be in positions and willing to take more shots.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Martial is a really good finisher, he just doesn’t take anywhere near enough shots. His finishing percentage is one of the best in the league. Needs to be in positions and willing to take more shots.

Agree, impressive stats. Not "ruthless" enough for me.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Generally good teams have 5 attackers (OP's definitions), the more the merrier but that tend to make the team imbalance, except for rare top class teams with many all-around top talents.

Ours at the moment, 4 minimum (pre-Bruno, our CAM is non-existent really) but max 5 for best balanced.

Martial
Rashford ----- Bruno ----- DJ/GW
Pogba -------​

 

[hmchan]

The problem is that even if we field enough attackers, their consistency and ability are nowhere near those from City and Liverpool. That's why we rely so much on Pogba and Fernandes in launching attacks.

 

[Skills]

Generally good teams have 5 attackers (OP's definitions), the more the merrier but that tend to make the team imbalance, except for rare top class teams with many all-around top talents.

Ours at the moment, 4 minimum (pre-Bruno, our CAM is non-existent really) but max 5 for best balanced.

Martial
Rashford ----- Bruno ----- DJ/GW
Pogba -------​

It only makes the team unbalanced if the coach is not competent enough to find a tactical solution.

 

[Rozay]

You can only afford to have a high number of attackers on the pitch if you have a plan. Great teams don’t typically defend their way to titles. I think first and foremost, you work out how you want to play and impose it on the other team 9/10 games. Without a clear plan, extra attackers seem more of a liability.

Once we finalise an XI and a way of playing, then we can then put the attackers we need to make it work onto the pitch. Putting more attackers than your opponent just in the hope of winning a shootout is riskier than putting them on in order to execute and impose your plan.

 

[Foxbatt]

There needs to be a balance in the team. Playing Scott, Fred and Bruno was asking for trouble against a Jose team with James, Martial and Rashford up front. Especially with a high defence line with Maguire and Lindelof in it. We should have sat back and let Spurs have the ball. yes it would be a boring match but most Jose matches are boring. Not starting Pogba is understandable but not starting Odion is not.

 

[Bwuk]

I agree.

Our front 3 should be narrow with Pogba and Bruno supplying, and the full backs providing the width.

Our full backs aren’t good enough going forward, and James should play on the left of a front 3 not the right, he’s too easy to just force wide.

 

[hmchan]

There needs to be a balance in the team. Playing Scott, Fred and Bruno was asking for trouble against a Jose team with James, Martial and Rashford up front. Especially with a high defence line with Maguire and Lindelof in it. We should have sat back and let Spurs have the ball. yes it would be a boring match but most Jose matches are boring. Not starting Pogba is understandable but not starting Odion is not.

It seems to me Ole is never going to start Ighalo in league matches, not if Martial is fit.

 

[He'sRaldo]

As Neville said, it's easier to get top quality attackers to defend and keep shape, than to get grafters to attack.

We need to get rid of the mentality of having players in for the graft, they'll never take us anywhere and leave us frustrated.

No surprise, that when we put enough attackers on the pitch that we started to look more threatening.

Exactly.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I agree.

Our front 3 should be narrow with Pogba and Bruno supplying, and the full backs providing the width.

Our full backs aren’t good enough going forward, and James should play on the left of a front 3 not the right, he’s too easy to just force wide.

Spot on.

And even if the fullbacks are bad at providing width, Pogba and Bruno are very comfortable going wide and creating overloads. In fact, that's how Pogs won the penalty yesterday with some word class skill on the byline.