Poll 4-Way v2 - QF: Pat vs 2mufc0

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

Team Pat

Formation: Christmas Tree

Operating on the principle that if Edgar is going to feck up my team eventually anyway then I may as well risk fecking it up myself now, I've opted for the ever-unpopular Christmas Tree formation. Real Madrid legend Jose Santamaria is drafted in to replace Kohler, and providing he can conquer his initial bemusement at the entire rest of the defence presumably communicating in Russian, he'll provide a reasonable facsimile of Kohler's qualities. At left back, Demyanenko injects a substantial upgrade in quality from Sergi.

The big change elsewhere is replacing a CF with Neymar. The Suarez/Shevchenko partnership from my last match seemed a tried and true approach to building around Diego - willing runners, excellent goalscorers but no-one who is likely to tread on his toes as a creative force. This is riskier, less easy on the eye, but if it worked it would be dazzling. Maradona himself has consistently listed gifted flair players like Houseman, Bochini and Rivelino as his personal favourites, and Neymar, even if he is dislikeable and possibly incestuous, is one of those rare players who can even hold a candle to Maradona on a technical level. He's proven in spades that he can thrive alongside other superstars too, and his ability to operate from wide areas and the quality of his off the ball movement suggests to me that he'd amplify rather than hinder Maradona's game. It's worth pointing out that our line-leader Shevchenko has superb pedigree in a similar system too.

The main drawback is that it limits Matthaus' scope to influence the game in the final third, but firstly, Lothar will have a full-time job in the heart of midfield against the likes of Platini and Falcao anyway, and secondly, if we win this he's probably going to end up being replaced by some turd like Lee Cattmerole, so we may as well start adapting now.

Team 2mufc0

I have gone for a more counter attacking lineup this game, solid backline with Leandro being the more attacking full back, whilst Irwin will provide width too. Picchi is the ball playing CB here and is complimented by the athletic stopper Luis Pereira next to him. The midfield is loaded with quality, work rate and defensive skills, overloading the areas where two of the best opposition players will be operating in making it very difficult to play against.

Falcao and Platini will be the play makers from midfield and what a partnership it is, they would compliment each other brilliantly in terms of style and it's a real shame they didn't get to play together in real life . Stiles will be the sitting midfielder while Netto plays the defensive B2B, both providing a world class defensive shield in front of the defence. Stiles should not be underestimated and I shouldn't really have to sell him on a United forum, but he was a superb midfielder and was the base of the great United and England sides, putting in big performances on the biggest stages against some of the best players ever.

Rooney & Kocsis complete the front line, with Kocsis being the spearhead and Rooney playing as the support striker playing off him. These two strikers work hard and are the perfect foil for Platini to operate behind them, whether looking for a goal or creating for the front two. Kocsis strength in the air will also be utilised with two attacking full backs and midfielders with excellent crossing abilities, he will be a nightmare to deal with the abundance of creativity behind him. Kocsis general play gets little credit, he was superb with his feet and linking players around him, his headers not only score goals but also to link up with players and will be a major threat with Platini and Rooney making runs around him. . Rooney will be a constant threat with his movement, pace, power and long shots, his selfless nature will also enable Kocsis and Platini to run riot.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Pat_Mustard @2mufc0 All the best

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not sure why Pat didn't go for a 4-4-2 diamond too. Neymar-Diego dynamic seems a bit off there. You usually have a Kaka and Seedorf/Rui Costa with Kaka operating more and other pulling strings from a bit deeper. I don't see that dynamic in Pat's team.

Dead even as to the rest. Hard to seperate.

 

[2mufc0]

Fair play @Pat_Mustard i didn't expect you to lineup like that

Struggling to see how it will work in my mind and also seems to be a waste of Lothar's full talents.

 

[Enigma_87]

Two very similar teams in terms of formation and centrally oriented. Pat has the better individuals, but really can't wrap my head around how that Christmas tree will pan out.

Will see more comments but van Hanegem looks redundant in this set up and Stielike/Matthaus would've made a great double pivot behind Maradona. Not sure what Neymar brings to the team either, considering he had Suarez and Sheva in that diamond the game before this one.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Fair play @Pat_Mustard i didn't expect you to lineup like that

Struggling to see how it will work in my mind and also seems to be a waste of Lothar's full talents.

Just wanted to try something different as we were all limited to breaking even at best in the reinforcements, and it's all downhill from here anyway.

Even less so than my first round match, this team isn't set up to maximise Lothar's influence in attack. No denying that. Maradona is probably the most creative player in history, and we want him on the ball as much as possible. Neymar is the second best dribbler on the pitch after Diego so we want him to see loads of the ball too, although that will have less impact on Lothar as Neymar's natural zone to pick up possession will be higher up the park and/or out wide on the left, whereas Matthaus will be driving from deep with the ball or arriving into goalscoring positions late without the ball to get on the end of something.

I do feel there's a tendency lately to fixate on Matthaus' goalscoring and final third contribution at the expense of his formidable all-around game and moreover his versatility. Taking a look at the midfield threes he featured in during WC 90, we have:

Matthaus/Hassler/Bein (vs Yugoslavia, vs U.A.E, vs Columbia)
Matthaus/Buchwald/Littbarski (vs Netherlands)
Matthaus/Berthold/Littbarski (vs Czechoslovakia)
Matthaus/Thon/Hassler (vs England)
Matthaus/Littbarski/Hassler (vs Argentina)

The composition varies hugely there, but only in the 3 matches with Thon, Buchwald or Berthold playing did Matthaus have a properly robust defensive presence behind him, yet he was a B2B force of nature regardless. That Matthaus/Littbarski/Hassler lineup in the final looks insanely cavalier even with the protection of a 5 man defence but Matthaus made it work.

Kicker's assessment of him:

Lothar Matthäus debuted in the Bundesliga as an 18-year old in 1979 and immediately became a starter for Mönchengladbach. He combined three elements as a player: incredible dynamism, extreme stamina and high commitment. In the beginning his aggressive ways looked as he if he wanted to eat his opponents alive. Blessed with an enormous, technically sound shot, Matthäus debuted for Germany already in his first professional season in 1979-80, winning the first of two major international trophies for Germany when he was part of the team that won the European Championship in Italy. His position throughout the 1980s until 1993 when he evolved into a libero was in central midfield and sometimes in right midfield as a cross between a no. 6 and no. 10 kind of player. Not a classic playmaker as he never cultivated the sophisticated short passing game. Instead, he was a very good passer of long diagonal balls. He always came forward from a deep midfield position where he was a good ball winner who would rush forward at a very high tempo as soon as he got the ball with lots of determination. In a sense, he was a pioneer of this kind of player that became ever more important in the following decades. His way of playing was not a result of tactical ideas but sprang from his own will of iron. In this way Matthäus was always a dominant figure in the teams he played for, not as an intelligent, integrative guiding figure but because of his great presence on the pitch. During the early 1980s he found it hard to break into the national team as Paul Breitner stood in his way. When he played, Matthäus was often assigned a special task of man-marking in midfield and achieved international reputation as one of the best players at marking. His breakthrough in the national team came in 1983-84 and was consolidated the following season after he had joined Bayern München in the summer of 1984. Bayern had lost Breitner and Rummenigge which left a vacant space that Matthäus eagerly filled. Due to his physical fitness and fanatism he enjoyed a very long career at the very top of the international game which started in the 1970s and ended in the 2000s. With his never flagging iron will, his dynamism and combat strength he managed to be a World Class players for roughly 15 years without being a great strategist.

His attacking contribution forms a big part of his legacy for sure, but he was first and foremost an incredibly combative, dynamic and dominant presence in the middle of the park. Stiles/Netto/Falcao is far from lightweight in the defensive phase, but Stielike/van Hanegem/Matthaus is even better off the ball and I fancy them to do a better job of neutering Platini than the opposition can manage on Maradona and Neymar.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not sure why Pat didn't go for a 4-4-2 diamond too. Neymar-Diego dynamic seems a bit off there. You usually have a Kaka and Seedorf/Rui Costa with Kaka operating more and other pulling strings from a bit deeper. I don't see that dynamic in Pat's team.

Dead even as to the rest. Hard to seperate.

Not sure what the problem is in that regard. With his natural tendency to operate from the left wing and his excellent off the ball movement to get into goalscoring positions Neymar looks a natural fit for the second striker-orientated half of the double act, while Diego is obviously a supreme orchestrator. To take the obvious example of him operating with a supernatural Argie midget:


he's clearly a dynamic and multi-faceted attacker, and not some languid and static playmaker in the Riquelme mode who will just get in Diego's way.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Two very similar teams in terms of formation and centrally oriented. Pat has the better individuals, but really can't wrap my head around how that Christmas tree will pan out.

Will see more comments but van Hanegem looks redundant in this set up and Stielike/Matthaus would've made a great double pivot behind Maradona. Not sure what Neymar brings to the team either, considering he had Suarez and Sheva in that diamond the game before this one.

I mostly just got bored with the diamond as it'll be tough to strengthen the team even if we're allowed to hold onto our remaining star players, and if we lose them then it'll gradually wither away into a pale imitation anyway.

As regards Neymar vs Suarez - inferior workrate, physical presence and nuisance value, but superior threat from wide areas when we're attacking and in general he's just the much better footballer, as much as I rate Suarez. I recognise how important Suarez was to making Barca's insane MSN attack tick, but Shevchenko will do the same job here and I rate him more highly.

I don't agree that van Hanegem is redundant against the strong diamond that 2mufc0 is fielding. He'll hold his own against his direct opponent Falcao*, he's good at covering the wide areas if Demyankenko gets caught upfield, he's superb in the air which is obviously helpful from set pieces and for defending against Kocsis, he;s got an ecellent range of passing to find the attacking players.

* Here he is edging his duel with Neeskens and putting in a superb defensive shift.

 

[2mufc0]

Just wanted to try something different as we were all limited to breaking even at best in the reinforcements, and it's all downhill from here anyway.

Even less so than my first round match, this team isn't set up to maximise Lothar's influence in attack. No denying that. Maradona is probably the most creative player in history, and we want him on the ball as much as possible. Neymar is the second best dribbler on the pitch after Diego so we want him to see loads of the ball too, although that will have less impact on Lothar as Neymar's natural zone to pick up possession will be higher up the park and/or out wide on the left, whereas Matthaus will be driving from deep with the ball or arriving into goalscoring positions late without the ball to get on the end of something.

I do feel there's a tendency lately to fixate on Matthaus' goalscoring and final third contribution at the expense of his formidable all-around game and moreover his versatility. Taking a look at the midfield threes he featured in during WC 90, we have:

Matthaus/Hassler/Bein (vs Yugoslavia, vs U.A.E, vs Columbia)
Matthaus/Buchwald/Littbarski (vs Netherlands)
Matthaus/Berthold/Littbarski (vs Czechoslovakia)
Matthaus/Thon/Hassler (vs England)
Matthaus/Littbarski/Hassler (vs Argentina)

The composition varies hugely there, but only in the 3 matches with Thon, Buchwald or Berthold playing did Matthaus have a properly robust defensive presence behind him, yet he was a B2B force of nature regardless. That Matthaus/Littbarski/Hassler lineup in the final looks insanely cavalier even with the protection of a 5 man defence but Matthaus made it work.

Kicker's assessment of him:



His attacking contribution forms a big part of his legacy for sure, but he was first and foremost an incredibly combative, dynamic and dominant presence in the middle of the park. Stiles/Netto/Falcao is far from lightweight in the defensive phase, but Stielike/van Hanegem/Matthaus is even better off the ball and I fancy them to do a better job of neutering Platini than the opposition can manage on Maradona and Neymar.

I think those are fair points about his defensive game I wouldn't play those skills down at all. What I was trying to say is you are only getting half the package this way, imo his peak was 90 WC version and you won't be getting that here.

As for your trio being better off the ball than mine, I think that's debateble. I don't think Stielike is any better than Stiles and I would question WVH athelitism, although he was tenacious and could put a tackle in, at times watching him he looked like he had lead in his boots.

 

[2mufc0]

Two very similar teams in terms of formation and centrally oriented. Pat has the better individuals, but really can't wrap my head around how that Christmas tree will pan out.

Will see more comments but van Hanegem looks redundant in this set up and Stielike/Matthaus would've made a great double pivot behind Maradona. Not sure what Neymar brings to the team either, considering he had Suarez and Sheva in that diamond the game before this one.

Which individuals would you have from Pat's team over mine? I would probably think Diego and Matthäus, but imo Platini would do better In my setup than Maradona. I wouldn't take anyone else from his team. Overall I would say it's pretty even in terms of individual quality.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think the attacking element of Matthaus is over played. I while back I watched all the goals he scored for Inter in his highest scoring season and a lot of them were penalties and free-kicks. He didn't score that much from open play.

 

[Moby]

This game really is a mindfeck to decide because of how similar the two teams are in terms of setup as well as quality of players even going by position to position.

In terms of midfield, both are well set up tactically so it comes down to quality and suitability in terms of coordinating with their teammates. Stielike and Stiles are both good solid players to have at the base. While both are excellent in defense, I would give the nod to the German in terms of ability on the ball, as he was a pretty good passer and could bring the ball out of the back. In direct setups that would be important.

The two 'supporting' CMs are again not far apart for me. Both WvH and Netto have strong combative credentials, good versatility and engines there. I think Netto is a tad more mobile, with WvH a bit better on the ball. In terms of their match ups I think Netto is better placed to battle Matthaus, whereas WvH might get twisted and turned by Falcao at times.

Coming to those CMs themselves, we've had this tiresome debate about Matthaus so many times and I am totally on Pat's side on this. On one hand, we regard Matthaus as possibly one of the most complete players of all time, who had a career spanning two decades where he had countless stellar performances in a plethora of roles. and on the other hand we try to pigeon hole him into that very specific role he played at Inter which were such an ultra defensive team. His attacking game gets talked about to the point to which it seems we are talking about an all out #10 or an attacking midfielder and not a midfield powerhouse who contributed in every phase of the game. There used to be a hue and cry at some time here if you had 'just one' DM behind him, and not two which couldn't be more mental. The examples Pat posted from his 1990 WC which is his greatest achievement pretty much show just how useful this guy is, and downplaying his impact in this setup makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's a typical daft draft argument for me.

Anyway, coming to the two, not much to say there. Both will have great freedom to impact the game and have quality support and platform to let them play their natural games. I would go ahead and say the same for Maradona and Platini. Both face good defensive midfielders but there's not much to suggest that they would be massively curbed here. Looking at the two attacks, I can see Rooney's selfless movement and letting Platini move into goalscoring spaces being a great combination, and that should bring Platini's goal threat to the front. Meanwhile with Neymar's direct runs like he showed while playing alongside Messi would be a great route to goal with Diego picking him out for fun.

In the end I tried to look at the two defenses to maybe break the deadlock. I think Pat's CB pair is a bit better than 2mufc's. And I also like his fullback duo over their counterparts. I am not getting a lot of confidence from that Periera-Leandro axis, and feel that side would be able to bring just enough joy for Pat with Neymar darting into that space and using those early one-touch lobs by Diego to get great looks at the opposition goal, and that should edge a possibly high scoring game here.

 

[harms]

I liked @2mufc0's defense much more last round. Not sure why Schnellinger got dropped either.
I'm edging towards @Pat_Mustard, but, as Moby said, very similar and very even teams.

 

[2mufc0]

I liked @2mufc0's defense much more last round. Not sure why Schnellinger got dropped either.
I'm edging towards @Pat_Mustard, but, as Moby said, very similar and very even teams.

I changed it up as I needed a bit more in midfield to counter Maradona and Matthäus, I would imagine a double pivot of Netto and Falcao would get slaughtered on here against them.

Bergomi is gone for obvious reasons, as for Schnellinger it was play him instead of Picchi or play him at left back instead of Irwin. I rate Picchi higher in this role and I also feel Irwin is a better attacking threat down wide areas so he gets the nod.

 

[harms]

I’d start him ahead of Pereira, without a doubt, albeit closer to the left. He is not only a sweeper or a left back, he’s easily capable of playing as a stopper (like alongside Schulz).

 

[Synco]

I think the attacking element of Matthaus is over played. I while back I watched all the goals he scored for Inter in his highest scoring season and a lot of them were penalties and free-kicks. He didn't score that much from open play.

Didn't check for Matthäus myself, but that's not unusual for midfielders with high scoring records, and it should be kept in mind when it comes to stats. Same goes for assists/key passes. Kroos' Real stats at times looked like he's pinging through balls all game, but the majority actually came from set pieces.

Agree with @Pat_Mustard and @Moby about Matthäus as well.

(Edit: Can't decide on who to vote for, just waiting for the result.)

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

You had a very good team @2mufc0

Could have been a different scoreline another day.

I thought the midfield 4 was incredible and had hints of Carri Magique. Even Stiles was more than decent on the ball as I have shown with gifs in the past. I'd have been really happy to see Leandro reach the next stage.

For @Pat_Mustard , I'd probably have voted for you with the below formation. Would have been a ballsy move to shunt Diego out wide, but you can see hints of a Messi 4-3-3 all over there.

Also brings Hanegem and Matthaus much more into the game. The fullbacks are close to perfect as well. Stielike works like a charm too.

 

[Enigma_87]

I mostly just got bored with the diamond as it'll be tough to strengthen the team even if we're allowed to hold onto our remaining star players, and if we lose them then it'll gradually wither away into a pale imitation anyway.

As regards Neymar vs Suarez - inferior workrate, physical presence and nuisance value, but superior threat from wide areas when we're attacking and in general he's just the much better footballer, as much as I rate Suarez. I recognise how important Suarez was to making Barca's insane MSN attack tick, but Shevchenko will do the same job here and I rate him more highly.

I don't agree that van Hanegem is redundant against the strong diamond that 2mufc0 is fielding. He'll hold his own against his direct opponent Falcao*, he's good at covering the wide areas if Demyankenko gets caught upfield, he's superb in the air which is obviously helpful from set pieces and for defending against Kocsis, he;s got an ecellent range of passing to find the attacking players.

* Here he is edging his duel with Neeskens and putting in a superb defensive shift.

Yeah I can see your point mate.

However Suarez up top, who can also peel wide in that last round team would be great, considering the addition of Demyanenko.

I rate WvH obviously but in a more deeper role, as you have him here I'd say it doesn't do him great service. He will be sitting more than playing his natural B2B game and whilst I agree with your reasoning and also description of him, the formation that scrappy posted above is better representation of your team and IMO those roles would fit them much better.

 

[Enigma_87]

Which individuals would you have from Pat's team over mine? I would probably think Diego and Matthäus, but imo Platini would do better In my setup than Maradona. I wouldn't take anyone else from his team. Overall I would say it's pretty even in terms of individual quality.

In a diamond I'd take:

-------Neymar--------Kocsis
---------------Maradona
----------Falcao------Matthaus
---------------Stielike

Obviously Suarez instead of Neymar if I had the option from the bench.

To me Rooney didn't reach the same heights and whilst there is not much in Maradona/Platini, to me Maradona is the superior player and only one can play in that diamond.

From the defence I'd probably take your full backs and Pat's central pair, keepers are dead even.

 

[2mufc0]

Cheers @GodShaveTheQueen.

GG @Pat_Mustard good luck, hope you go all the way.

 

[Isotope]

Pat's midfield is just too strong. Although I can see 2mufc's nicked this with his more decisive attack.
Pat was doing really well on the last upgrade, by getting Demaynenko and Santamaria.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers @GodShaveTheQueen.

GG @Pat_Mustard good luck, hope you go all the way.

Thanks mate. Was surprised to see the scoreline as it looked set to be a draw or narrow win for you for much of the match.

That looks very good and I might well go with that for my next match. I had thought of it before the match but immediately dismissed it. Not sure why as it looks quality when it's set out on the teamsheet.

 

[Isotope]

For @Pat_Mustard , I'd probably have voted for you with the below formation. Would have been a ballsy move to shunt Diego out wide, but you can see hints of a Messi 4-3-3 all over there.

Also brings Hanegem and Matthaus much more into the game. The fullbacks are close to perfect as well. Stielike works like a charm too.

It's like seeing cubism by Picasso. It must be somehow good, because people said so. But I don't understand it a bit.

 

[Gio]

Which individuals would you have from Pat's team over mine? I would probably think Diego and Matthäus, but imo Platini would do better In my setup than Maradona. I wouldn't take anyone else from his team. Overall I would say it's pretty even in terms of individual quality.

Bit late to the party here but if this 22 were my squad I’d find room for Maradona and Platini together. Yes damn me to hell for all eternity draft lords.

Something like

Kocsis - Maradona
Platini
Netto - Falcao - Matthäus
Demyanenko - Shesternyev - Santamaria - Leandro
Zoff​

Defenders are fairly interchangeable and arguably Perreira is a better partner to cover Leandro than Santamaria. There’s a case for Shevchenko based on ability to work the line in a similar system. Falcao to pick up the first pass from defence, Matthäus and Netto to flank him box to box. Netto over Van Hanegem to help ward against playmaker overload plus he offers more leggy flank support in a narrow system. Maradona to play off the striker from the right.