Pre Premier League Draft Round 1 - MJJ vs Cal

[Indnyc]

This is a Pre Premier League draft from 1971/72 to 1991/92 where managers assemble their squads by selecting players based on their playing performance during this time period only. Performances that fall outside this time period should not be considered. Neither should the players performance for their country/international tournaments be considered. As in any team, team tactics and balance also play a part.

Hence please carefully consider the abovesaid factors and evaluate the merits of both teams before voting for the team which in your opinion is likelier to win the match.

Team MJJ

Vs.

Team Cal?

Team MJJ tactics and player profiles

Joe Corrigan- England's third best goal keeper in the 70s, behind shilton and clemence.
Derek Statham- Supremely gifted and athletic full-back, Statham was as good going forward as he was defending, ghosting past players in his own penalty area and the opposition's. Voted amongst the greatest 16 westbrom players ever featuring legends such as Bryan Robson and Bryan Robson
Kevin Beattie- One of the greatest defenders of his time, nicknamed the diamond by robson due to his talent and compared to duncan edwards(or phil jones)
Kenny Burns- Winning player of the year based on his defensive performances for Forest and a crucial part of the side which dominated Europe in the late 1980s.
Steve Nicol- One of the most versatile and ambidextrous players ever. Nicol was a great defender, but also a superb attacking player. He was quite adept at taking on defenders and an accurate crosser of the ball. Won the player of the year award in 1988/89.
Graeme Souness- Legendary box to box midfielder and a key component of the liverpool side that dominated europe.
Ray Wilkins- The king of cockney, captained chelsea at the young age of 19. A superbly talented central midfielder with excellent vision, ball retention and passing skills.
George Armstrong- Made his arsenal debut at the age of 17 and proceeded to play 621 times for them.An orthodox winger whose work-rate was so prodigious that he was both an auxiliary defender, tirelessly tracking back and regaining possession, and one of the most prolific providers of 'assists' in the game. Assists were not formally recorded in his era, but it has been calculated that he played a part in more than half of Arsenal's goals during their 1970-71 'Double' triumph. Noted for his superb crossing ability.
Colin Bell- Nicknamed Nijinsky(racing horse) for his superb stamina. One of englands greatest all round midfielders, Bell had it all. Superb vision, first touch and the art of controlling the game.
Malcolm Macdonald- One of the best english strikers of all time, known for his superb pace, aggression, work-rate. Liked to drop into midfield to pick up the ball as well.
Allan Clarke- Leeds legend with a one in two goal scoring record at his peak

Team Cal Player Profile and Tactics

• Players eligible to be picked are as follows
  • Having played for a UK based club (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) between the dates 14/08/1971 (Start of 1971/72 season) to 02/05/1992 (End of 1991/92 season)
• Player peak is defined as the period in which the player played during these 20 seasons. So for example a player who played from 1989-90 season to 2000-01 season would have his performances for only seasons 1989-90 to 1991-92 counted

I have no doubt it'll be pointed out that some of my players hasn't played that much during the period.

George Best - 1971–72 54 games played 27 goals scored, Best was top scorer for United again that season, he went on to play for United more than 30 times after this season.
Geoff Hurst - England's World Cup final hero played over 200 games during the period of this draft, leading West Ham to a cup semi final.
Eric Cantona - Before he was King Eric, he actually cost us a title in 1992. "Cantona made 15 appearances for Leeds in their championship-winning season, he was instrumental in their title success..."
Gordon Strachan - One of the greats during the period of the draft, winning plenty of trophies both in Scotland and England, including winning the league title in 1992 as captain.
Gary McAllister - Another Scot who played an important part of that title win, McAllister provided Leeds with much creativity in the middle of midfield.
David Batty - The England international midfielder played centrally alongside Gary McAllister. Batty was only 22 yrs old when Leeds won the title and was seen as one of the most promising young English midfielders of his generation.
Roland Nilsson - Swedish international RB with 116 caps who played for Sheffield Wednesday, winning the League Cup in 91.
Martin Keown - A regular for Aston Villa and Everton from the mid-80s to early-90s. His performancce earning call-ups to the England team.
Tony Adams - One of England's best CBs, having won 2 of his 4 league titles during the period of this draft.
Stuart Pearce - best known for his spell at Nottingham Forest, where he regularly captained the team and made 78 appearances for England. An excellent scoring record for a defender
Hans van Breukelen - played 73 caps for the Dutch national team, won the Euro in 1998. Played 2 seasons in England in the mid-80s.

Tactics
With a draft in this period, it just has to be a 4-4-2 (in the style of Sir Alex's early-mid 90s teams), my team has a solid defense, a combative midfield that has plenty of creativity. Strachan to help out in midfield whilst Best having the freedom to attack down the wing. Cantona in his usual position to supply Hurst with the chances.

 

[Indnyc]

Good Luck @MJJ and @Cal?

 

[Cal?]

Good luck @MJJ

 

[MJJ]

Good Luck @Cal

Just to point out that keown played for midtable sides and even the championship during that period.

 

[MJJ]

@Indnyc can you put up a new poll? cant see who voted for who.

 

[Indnyc]

@Indnyc can you put up a new poll? cant see who voted for who.

Hmm.. I am not sure why that is the case.. Let me check

 

[MJJ]

Hmm.. I am not sure why that is the case.. Let me check

You have to select the option when selecting the poll.

Edit- I think the only option is to delete the poll and start a new one.

 

[MJJ]

Team Cal?

Geoff Hurst- After 1971, the period which is being considered, a 30 year old Hurst scored 38 goals in 142 appearances.
Cantona- Scored 3 goals in 15 appearances but was a creative presence. Should be judged similar to the likes of Zaki as his career beyond 1991 is being ignored.
Best- Had one good season in 1971.
Batty- Had two good seasons(1990,1991) in the premier league at 21/22 years of age
Mcallister-Spent majority of his time in the championship, with two good seasons only(1990,1991)
Nilsson- Spent one season being relegated with Sheff Wed and one in the championship
Keown- Rotational option for Aston Villa(got relegated, spent time in championship and mid table otherwise) and everton(mid-table side)
Van Breukelen- Spent two seasons at forest, making 61 appearances. Only made 7 international appearances over the period.

I am facing a side comprised of players who either played in the championship, midtable sides or had a couple of good seasons with nobody who has a proven goal scoring record.

 

[Cal?]

Team Cal?

Geoff Hurst- After 1971, the period which is being considered, a 30 year old Hurst scored 38 goals in 142 appearances.
Cantona- Scored 3 goals in 15 appearances but was a creative presence. Should be judged similar to the likes of Zaki as his career beyond 1991 is being ignored.
Best- Had one good season in 1971.
Batty- Had two good seasons(1990,1991) in the premier league at 21/22 years of age
Mcallister-Spent majority of his time in the championship, with two good seasons only(1990,1991)
Nilsson- Spent one season being relegated with Sheff Wed and one in the championship
Keown- Rotational option for Aston Villa(got relegated, spent time in championship and mid table otherwise) and everton(mid-table side)
Van Breukelen- Spent two seasons at forest, making 61 appearances. Only made 7 international appearances over the period.

I am facing a side comprised of players who either played in the championship, midtable sides or had a couple of good seasons with nobody who has a proven goal scoring record.

This is exactly why I highlighted this part of the rules:

Player peak is defined as the period in which the player played during these 20 seasons. So for example a player who played from 1989-90 season to 2000-01 season would have his performances for only seasons 1989-90 to 1991-92 counted

Nowhere does it say anything about longevity. Cantona played 15 games and should be rated exactly as those 15 games, a key performer in Leeds winning the title.
Even my opponent agrees that Best had a good season in 1971

 

[MJJ]

This is exactly why I highlighted this part of the rules:

Player peak is defined as the period in which the player played during these 20 seasons. So for example a player who played from 1989-90 season to 2000-01 season would have his performances for only seasons 1989-90 to 1991-92 counted

Nowhere does it say anything about longevity. Cantona played 15 games and should be rated exactly as those 15 games, a key performer in Leeds winning the title.
Even my opponent agrees that Best had a good season in 1971

Cantona should be compared to Amir Zaki, Michu or Cisse. One season wonders who might be able to continue or might not. Even excluding that, who is going to score the goals for you? Both your strikers have horrible goal scoring ratio while you have mid-table/championship defenders.

 

[Cal?]

Cantona should be compared to Amir Zaki, Michu or Cisse. One season wonders who might be able to continue or might not. Even excluding that, who is going to score the goals for you? Both your strikers have horrible goal scoring ratio while you have mid-table/championship defenders.

Best

 

[Indnyc]

You have to select the option when selecting the poll.

Edit- I think the only option is to delete the poll and start a new one.

Apologies. I can't seem to change it.. Spoke to Invictus and he thinks there is a bug.. The only way i think we can see who voted is maybe if i change it to view results without voting

 

[Jim Beam]

Sorry @Cal?, who is on the bench? Andy Cole?

 

[MJJ]

Best

One player?

 

[Cal?]

One player?

Looks like you’ve won anyway.

 

[Gio]

I know cal has tried to pull a couple of fast ones, but on the other hand I never realised he'd assembled that superb Leeds midfield unit of 1991/92, which was easily the standout component of that league-winning side. Very strong full-backs too.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm inclined to give Best a pass as he had a good full season. Not quite his peak, but still a good winger. He had 32 goas in 53 games in 1967-68 (peak). He has 27 goals in 54 games in 1971-72. 4th best scorer and all that. And probably the only winger in the top 5 scorers list.

Cantona is a bit dicey as 15 games is far too short to make a judgement of a peak. If a player had just played 2 games, then would we just judge him based on 2 games? The logic doesn't hold good that way.

If not for Cantona, I expect I'd be leaning towards Cal.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

@MJJ

I like the Statham write up..... "Voted amongst the greatest 16 westbrom players ever featuring legends such as Bryan Robson and Bryan Robson".

So good they named him twice?

Super Mac and Sniffer liked supply... they were finishers. How do you see them getting that (assuming Wilkins and Sourpuss arent known for pushing up.... though personally, I think Sourpiss did it more than he got credit for).

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I know cal has tried to pull a couple of fast ones, but on the other hand I never realised he'd assembled that superb Leeds midfield unit of 1991/92, which was easily the standout component of that league-winning side. Very strong full-backs too.

I just realised that too, I didn't pick that up during the drafting process. Funnily enough I watched a show about the 91/92 season last night and while United's "4 games in a week" scandal had some affect, it was clear that against all the odds, that midfield of age/youth blended excellently.

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ

I like the Statham write up..... "Voted amongst the greatest 16 westbrom players ever featuring legends such as Bryan Robson and Bryan Robson".

So good they named him twice?

Super Mac and Sniffer liked supply... they were finishers. How do you see them getting that (assuming Wilkins and Sourpuss arent known for pushing up.... though personally, I think Sourpiss did it more than he got credit for).

Knew you would like that.

Armstrong was a very good and accurate crosser of the ball and both my strikers will love his balls hehe.

Bell is also probably the most creative player on the pitch after best and will supply the through balls. I feel like souness play making often gets underrated and Wilkens was a very good passer too.

From what I read, malcolm liked to drop deep as well.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Knew you would like that.

Armstrong was a very good and accurate crosser of the ball and both my strikers will love his balls hehe.

Bell is also probably the most creative player on the pitch after best and will supply the through balls. I feel like souness play making often gets underrated and Wilkens was a very good passer too.

From what I read, malcolm liked to drop deep as well.

McDonald was a goalscorer.... an excellent one. Think he was top scorer for his club(s) for something silly like 7 years on the bounce?

He was also in Superstars. For those of you that have never heard of it, it was a TV show where the top sporting superstars from various sports competed in a Series of events for a TV show. Some of the best stars in the world..... uninsured, mindboggling.

Not to oversell it, but ........ it was the greatest TV show ever.

 

[MJJ]

McDonald was a goalscorer.... an excellent one. Think he was top scorer for his club(s) for something silly like 7 years on the bounce?

He was also in Superstars. For those of you that have never heard of it, it was a TV show where the top sporting superstars from various sports competed in a Series of events for a TV show. Some of the best stars in the world..... uninsured, mindboggling.

Not to oversell it, but ........ it was the greatest TV show ever.

Yeah he was, also had an amazing goal scoring record for arsenal but he also dropped deep as well to help out the midfield.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Not quite his peak, but still a good winger. He had 32 goas in 53 games in 1967-68 (peak). He has 27 goals in 54 games in 1971-72. 4th best scorer and all that. And probably the only winger in the top 5 scorers list.

It goes beyond the stats, though. The actual, historical figure who racked up those numbers was also a player who didn't function as a team player anymore. He was a lone wolf who - as mentioned before - fecked off to London to go on the piss during the season in question (the only season you can possibly use to sell him as anything remotely close to the GOAT version of Best).

He was becoming unreliable rather than unpredictable (in a good sense), and his solo-efforts (increasingly just that) ultimately contributed to...what? A nothing season for United. Mid-table plus.

The XI as such is a combination of brilliant, on-the-money picks (the Leeds trio and the fullbacks) and ridiculous picks that can only be taken as attempts to cash in on pure names/reputations.

Not particularly in love with the opposition, but it's obvious who should go through.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

From what I read, malcolm liked to drop deep as well.

MacDonald looked more or less a pure poacher to me from what I've watched, and a very good one at that. At Arsenal it seemed to be Stapleton who did more of the hard graft and played a greater part in the build up.

I know cal has tried to pull a couple of fast ones, but on the other hand I never realised he'd assembled that superb Leeds midfield unit of 1991/92, which was easily the standout component of that league-winning side. Very strong full-backs too.

Agreed. Some cracking picks there, but he really needed to do a more thorough analysis on Best's season if he was going to sell it effectively, and Cantona's appearance record is too scant to give any real credit to him. Voted MJJ.

 

[MJJ]

It goes beyond the stats, though. The actual, historical figure who racked up those numbers was also a player who didn't function as a team player anymore. He was a lone wolf who - as mentioned before - fecked off to London to go on the piss during the season in question (the only season you can possibly use to sell him as anything remotely close to the GOAT version of Best).

He was becoming unreliable rather than unpredictable (in a good sense), and his solo-efforts (increasingly just that) ultimately contributed to...what? A nothing season for United. Mid-table plus.

The XI as such is a combination of brilliant, on-the-money picks (the Leeds trio and the fullbacks) and ridiculous picks that can only be taken as attempts to cash in on pure names/reputations.

Not particularly in love with the opposition, but it's obvious who should go through.

Any particular reasons?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He was becoming unreliable rather than unpredictable (in a good sense), and his solo-efforts (increasingly just that) ultimately contributed to...what? A nothing season for United. Mid-table plus.

Seems there was a big fallout between Best and Charlton in 1971-71 with Best refusing to play in Bobby's testimonial saying it'd be hypocritical. What a career end to the trinity!

 

[MJJ]

MacDonald looked more or less a pure poacher to me from what I've watched, and a very good one at that. At Arsenal it seemed to be Stapleton who did more of the hard graft and played a greater part in the build up.



Agreed. Some cracking picks there, but he really needed to do a more thorough analysis on Best's season if he was going to sell it effectively, and Cantona's appearance record is too scant to give any real credit to him. Voted MJJ.

You are correct, pes forums had him as a way he rooney type but more reputable sources describe him as a goal poacher.

Guys, any feedback on my side?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Guys, any feedback on my side?

You'll lose next round. Hope this helps.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You are correct, pes forums had him as a way he rooney type but more reputable sources describe him as a goal poacher.

Guys, any feedback on my side?

Yeah I agree with the poacher. From what I've seen and read Super Mac was almost the epitome of the classic English poacher. Stapleton is really the one who was more Rooney and involved in the build up.

 

[Cal?]

Well, congrats @MJJ

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Well done both.

@MJJ .... Super Macs debut. With a penalty as good as Ronaldos t'other day.

The archetypal No.9

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It goes beyond the stats, though. The actual, historical figure who racked up those numbers was also a player who didn't function as a team player anymore. He was a lone wolf who - as mentioned before - fecked off to London to go on the piss during the season in question (the only season you can possibly use to sell him as anything remotely close to the GOAT version of Best).

He was becoming unreliable rather than unpredictable (in a good sense), and his solo-efforts (increasingly just that) ultimately contributed to...what? A nothing season for United. Mid-table plus.

I don't think we should take those dynamics into account for a fantasy game. For example, if we pick Keane/Vieira or Di Stefano/Didi on same team, we don't assume that it'd be a dysfunctional team by default. He had problems with Charlton and others, which may not happen here with this set of players.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I don't think we should take those dynamics into account for a fantasy game. For example, if we pick Keane/Vieira or Di Stefano/Didi on same team, we don't assume that it'd be a dysfunctional team by default. He had problems with Charlton and others, which may not happen here with this set of players.

Two different things IMO and I absolutely take factors like this into account with my votes.

Didi-Di Stefano? I would definitely rate that as dysfunctional in a fantasy match because that was a real pairing and it literally was dysfunctional.
Just like woe to anyone who tries to play Ruben Sosa with Bergkamp. It wouldn't work in fantasy because it didn't work in real life.

Vieira-Keane is a different thing because they never played together. Assumptions they can't is based on similar role and play style - which we have seen get mentioned with say Pirlo-Xabi Alonso. So their incompatibility is more based on similar role and play style than anything like a proven incompatible partnership.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Vieira-Keane is a different thing because they never played together. Assumptions they can't is based on similar role and play style - which we have seen get mentioned with say Pirlo-Xabi Alonso. So their incompatibility is more based on similar role and play style than anything like a proven incompatible partnership.

Not the roles but taking players attitude etc (Re...Chester's point on Best not being a team player). If we see Keane and Vieira anywhere close, they'd have a clash of ego's (going by their peak years), so it'd not be fair to say they can't be played together in same draft.


And I'd be more than happy to have both in my all time team.

Vieira.....Keane
....Scholes....

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Any particular reasons?

Sorry, mate - should have phrased that differently. Tbh, I didn't scrutinize your XI, I just concluded there were no fatal flaws (and there not being any was enough to secure the win).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't think we should take those dynamics into account for a fantasy game. For example, if we pick Keane/Vieira or Di Stefano/Didi on same team, we don't assume that it'd be a dysfunctional team by default. He had problems with Charlton and others, which may not happen here with this set of players.

Well, Didi/Di Stefano...dunno about that.

Point here, though, is that we're talking about a specific incarnation of the player: If the assertion (which can be backed up by evidence) that he didn't give a feck anymore is correct, this has to influence how he's regarded in a fantasy setting.

You can't claim that he was useless, of course, only that he was unreliable and incapable of elevating the team around him.

Charlton hadn't declined so dreadfully by 1971 either that he wasn't still pretty good on his day but that's obviously not good enough to make him a plausible pick in this draft, nevermind a first round pick.