Surveillance Draft - QF - Physiocrat vs Tuppet

[Enigma_87]

The point was in an average team it works, while if you have great players and build the team around Riquelme you will constrain yourself. If the oppo gets Riquelme in their pocket they shut down your entire gameplan and leave you dependent on individual brilliance.

Hence that Villareal is probably the best fit for him and the level he'd be to reach his level. Which is far from what you call a great player. Take Totti for example - he played at inferior team, but is pretty clear he's level above Riquelme, I have no doubts that Totti of those years will fit pretty much anywhere and elevate any team.

Players like Ronaldinho, Nedved, Deco, Zidane, Kaka did it at great teams because they simply are great players. In the case of Deco he also did it in a not so great team in Porto. The difference between those and Riquelme is that the latter was big fish in a small pond and never made it at the highest level and at the top teams. If we have the vice versa I can't see any reason why wouldn't players like Ronaldinho, Nedved or Zidane take that Villareal side to the next level or the levels Riquelme took them.

Great players at their peak you can put it an any team and will excel, you put Riquelme in Barca's team and he won't.

Personally I don't think there's much between Riquelme and Djalminha for example, but you don't get the latter called the best #10 in the world for 2-3 years straight

 

[Moby]

Riquelme basically falls in the zone where players are too good for an average side but not good enough for a top side who aims to win the highest accolades.

 

[Enigma_87]

Riquelme basically falls in the zone where players are too good for an average side but not good enough for a top side who aims to win the highest accolades.

I'd place him around Djalminha, Valeron, etc level as you said. IMO the stars aligned right for him in that Villareal side and made it possible to reach his brief peak. Put him at another side that require for him to be more versatile and he'll be a rotation player at best.

Although that Villareal side was nothing special it had pretty solid players like Forlan, Senna, Sorin, Cazorla, Tacchinardi who are the best fits for Riquelme - not star players that would take the spotlight and require him to play second fiddle but good enough to get at the end of his passes and also work their bollox off to set the stage.

Besides there he had the luxury to have off games, while if he's a star man in a top team having the likes of Deco, Iniesta to take your place it's quite different amount of pressure to be consistent enough to keep your place and also offer more than those players at similar level(or better in that case) to the team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Although that Villareal side was nothing special it had pretty solid players like Forlan, Senna, Sorin, Cazorla, Tacchinardi who are the best fits for Riquelme - not star players that would take the spotlight and require him to play second fiddle but good enough to get at the end of his passes and also work their bollox off to set the stage.

Id have both Forlan and Senna ahead of Riquelme, in fact Senna was that Villarreal side - best and most important player.

 

[Moby]

Besides there he had the luxury to have off games, while if he's a star man in a top team having the likes of Deco, Iniesta to take your place it's quite different amount of pressure to be consistent enough to keep your place

Exactly.

 

[Moby]

Id have both Forlan and Senna ahead of Riquelme, in fact Senna was that Villarreal side - best and most important player.

Actually loved watching that team. Sorin was a force of nature up and down that left flank as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Actually loved watching that team. Sorin was a force of nature up and down that left flank as well.

Remember this game?

No Riquelme but it was end to end stuff with 6 goals and missed peno by Eto'o. Forlan was having a great season when we sold him which he capped it off with a hattrick at Camp Nou

 

[Gio]

Riquelme basically falls in the zone where players are too good for an average side but not good enough for a top side who aims to win the highest accolades.

Although had he not been subbed off late in the second half with Argentina in control against Germany in the 2006 quarter-final, they may well have gone on to win the World Cup with him at the helm. But yes it was pretty clear the Villarreal/Boca dynamic suited him better than Barcelona (although much of that failure was to do with Van Gaal brainfarting his way through his second spell and deploying Riquelme as a fecking winger ).

With regards to Villarreal, he was indisputably their star man, the one player that made the whole team tick. One less well known but very typical example was in the Champions League last 16. Rangers had Villarreal by the balls in the second leg, leading away from home and in total control of the match. They were going nowhere and creating noting. Then one flash of brilliance from Riquelme unlocked the defence and it was the goal that squeezed them through to the next round. Villarreal had a lot of good players, but it was clear who their talisman was.

 

[Enigma_87]

Although had he not been subbed off late in the second half with Argentina in control against Germany in the 2006 quarter-final, they may well have gone on to win the World Cup with him at the helm. But yes it was pretty clear the Villarreal/Boca dynamic suited him better than Barcelona (although much of that failure was to do with Van Gaal brainfarting his way through his second spell and deploying Riquelme as a fecking winger ).

With regards to Villarreal, he was indisputably their star man, the one player that made the whole team tick. One less well known but very typical example was in the Champions League last 16. Rangers had Villarreal by the balls in the second leg, leading away from home and in total control of the match. They were going nowhere and creating noting. Then one flash of brilliance from Riquelme unlocked the defence and it was the goal that squeezed them through to the next round. Villarreal had a lot of good players, but it was clear who their talisman was.

Well no one is denying that but that doesn't make him a great player or the best #10 in the world at that time. Besides, things change quickly in a game, what could've or should've are usually presumptions and Argentina winning the whole WC failing in the QF's is a big one.

Every player has standout performances and Riquelme is not that special considering he didn't put those performances that often to call him a generation great.

Take Djalmnha for example. He tore Real Madrid side a new one at Riazor when they won 5-2 and put a truly spectacular display. Same as Riquelme he was fascinating player to watch and has the same brief peak that he can pull something literally out of nowhere. Yet his name is barely mentioned as one of the best players in the world in the late 90's early 00's.

 

[Moby]

Although had he not been subbed off late in the second half with Argentina

Yeah, like I said that moment combined with his missed penalty that was supposed to take Villarreal to the final - those two moments could have changed his career, although all a bit hypothetical at this point.

 

[Gio]

Well no one is denying that but that doesn't make him a great player or the best #10 in the world at that time. Besides, things change quickly in a game, what could've or should've are usually presumptions and Argentina winning the whole WC failing in the QF's is a big one.

Every player has standout performances and Riquelme is not that special considering he didn't put those performances that often to call him a generation great.

Take Djalmnha for example. He tore Real Madrid side a new one at Riazor when they won 5-2 and put a truly spectacular display. Same as Riquelme he was fascinating player to watch and has the same brief peak that he can pull something literally out of nowhere. Yet his name is barely mentioned as one of the best players in the world in the late 90's early 00's.

I wouldn't put him ahead of or on par with Nedved, Ronaldinho or Zidane in any all-time context. My main point is that between 2004 and 2006 I didn't see any better no 10s kicking about. You can make a case for Kaka or Deco depending on your taste which is reasonable enough. But the likes of Zidane and Nedved were clearly on the wane then.

As for Djalminha, he never really reached those heights. He was a tasty and enigmatic player, but was never a season-long driving force or impressed long enough to even get in the mixer for his national team. Fundamentally that was because there were better players available for Brazil in the same position. He just didn't sustain a real performance level long enough, at least Riquelme had a couple of seasons of it, along with an excellent World Cup as well as more Djalminha-esque spells of top form in other parts of his career.

 

[antohan]

Riquelme basically falls in the zone where players are too good for an average side but not good enough for a top side who aims to win the highest accolades.

As far as I'm concerned he had the talent but never had the necessary temperament, character, drive, whatever you want to call it. That's where he ends up falling flat on his arse vs. the example you gave earlier re: Zidane having teams built around him too.

 

[Moby]

As far as I'm concerned he had the talent but never had the necessary temperament, character, drive, whatever you want to call it. That's where he ends up falling flat on his arse vs. the example you gave earlier re: Zidane having teams built around him too.

Indeed.

 

[antohan]

Actually loved watching that team. Sorin was a force of nature up and down that left flank as well.

Juanpi

Shame the Argies kept chopping and changing management, always thought they didn't make the most of having Sorín and Zanetti on either flank for a decade or so.

 

[Enigma_87]

I wouldn't put him ahead of or on par with Nedved, Ronaldinho or Zidane in any all-time context. My main point is that between 2004 and 2006 I didn't see any better no 10s kicking about. You can make a case for Kaka or Deco depending on your taste which is reasonable enough. But the likes of Zidane and Nedved were clearly on the wane then.

As for Djalminha, he never really reached those heights. He was a tasty and enigmatic player, but was never a season-long driving force or impressed long enough to even get in the mixer for his national team. Fundamentally that was because there were better players available for Brazil in the same position. He just didn't sustain a real performance level long enough, at least Riquelme had a couple of seasons of it, along with an excellent World Cup as well as more Djalminha-esque spells of top form in other parts of his career.

If you limit #10's in a specific system and formations you could probably have a point. But as a player and role all mentioned were better during that time period.

Riquelme was too inconsistent and you can't put him as one of the best based on handful of matches in which (Arsenal one) he choked away a penalty.

Djalminha was pretty good for Depor for couple of seasons. Don't see any difference to what Riquelme did for Villareal, apart from that he had a good Copa in 1997 especially considering the names he had to fight with to get minutes.

 

[Moby]

Juanpi

Shame the Argies kept chopping and changing management, always thought they didn't make the most of having Sorín and Zanetti on either flank for a decade or so.

Yeah. Argentina is possibly the biggest waste of talent in the last two decades. Between Redondo not going to France in 98, them crashing out in 2002 after being absolutely sensation during qualifications, the Pekerman-Riquelme fiasco in 06, coked up Diego not picking Cambiasso and Pupi in 10 and that underperforming forward line in 14, there was at least one cup to be snatched there.

 

[Moby]

By the way @Gio I think Arg would have possibly beaten Germany in 2006 had that brainfart not happened (the timing of Klose's goal was a bit telling) but I doubt they would have gone on to win the whole thing. They were fantastic in the group stage and were the team I was rooting for till they crashed out as they played some really beautiful football but at the same time it looked like against tougher teams they wouldn't quite stand up. It took that Maxi wondergoal for them to get past Mexico in the previous round and Germany, Italy and the (Zidane, Thuram, Vieira) led rejuvenated France were better teams back then. That Italian midfield and defense was on steroids and once they dispatched Germany in that amazing semi final (what's with Germany-Italy having world cup classics ) I had to root for them despite sitting in Parc des Princes for the final amongst a sea of French flags!

On a side note, Vidic barely made the squad I think for S&M and didn't play a single minute in the group, six months later we signed him and the rest is history. Talk about finding hidden gems.

 

[Gio]

If you limit #10's in a specific system and formations you could probably have a point. But as a player and role all mentioned were better during that time period.

Riquelme was too inconsistent and you can't put him as one of the best based on handful of matches in which (Arsenal one) he choked away a penalty.

Djalminha was pretty good for Depor for couple of seasons. Don't see any difference to what Riquelme did for Villareal, apart from that he had a good Copa in 1997 especially considering the names he had to fight with to get minutes.

Zidane was well past his best post 2004. People often conflate his performances in the knockout stages of the 2006 World Cup as evidence of his longevity, but anyone who watched La Liga regularly saw he was nowhere near best in the world material during 2004/05 and 2005/06. Nedved was closer to his peak but he was still between the ages of 32 and 34 and it's not a stretch to suggest that a Riquelme at the peak of his powers was more influential by that point. I'm not really buying the consistency point - Riquelme routinely performed well during 2004/05 and 2005/06. The penalty was obviously a missed opportunity which doesn't reflect well on his character, and had he scored it and had Villarreal gone on to win that Champions League his standing would be higher. But he was clearly the best player on the park in that game and his ability to help dominate the match put Villarreal into the position in the first place. More generally I wouldn't overstate it given it's happened to many greats at key stages of major tournaments (Maradona, 1990; Van Basten, 1992; Baggio, 1994; Baresi, 1994; Ronaldo, 2008, etc). As for Djalminha, he just didn't perform as consistently as Riquelme did at his peak, nor was he such a central figure in one team's success. Super Depor had a lot of great players and their system didn't hinge so decisively around a single force.

 

[Gio]

By the way @Gio I think Arg would have possibly beaten Germany in 2006 had that brainfart not happened (the timing of Klose's goal was a bit telling) but I doubt they would have gone on to win the whole thing. They were fantastic in the group stage and were the team I was rooting for till they crashed out as they played some really beautiful football but at the same time it looked like against tougher teams they wouldn't quite stand up. It took that Maxi wondergoal for them to get past Mexico in the previous round and Germany, Italy and the (Zidane, Thuram, Vieira) led rejuvenated France were better teams back then. That Italian midfield and defense was on steroids and once they dispatched Germany in that amazing semi final (what's with Germany-Italy having world cup classics ) I had to root for them despite sitting in Parc des Princes for the final amongst a sea of French flags!

On a side note, Vidic barely made the squad I think for S&M and didn't play a single minute in the group, six months later we signed him and the rest is history. Talk about finding hidden gems.

I do agree. Half-way through that tournament everyone was going bananas over that Argentina side. They were delivering 10/10 performances and everyone else was giving 6s and 7s. Peaked too early obviously and you could have envisaged that momentum-gathering Italy side over-running them in a semi-final.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I also missed Ballack on the list

Ronaldinho - was most on the left but played as a 10 a lot as well, and Riquelme is not a patch on him at his peak when he was also in his physical powers.
Nedved - won the Ballon D'oR at 31 and I wouldn't say he was on the wane, he was pretty much close to his peak then.
Still Deco - at Porto was better than Riquelme in the time specified - 2004. He was the best player on the park in that CL final as well and top assist in that year in CL. Even though is true that he played in 4-3-3 that's pretty much close to what Riquelme's role was as he had van Bommel and Edmilson for example besides him.
Zidane - although not at the peak of his powers still was pretty decisive player and his WC form proved it.
Kaka - was best during 06-07 which overlapped with Riquelme's best years 04-06 as you mentioned. Besides I'll always take Kaka in 04/05 form on the road to Instanbul where he scored 5 and assisted 5 and also probably had the best year in Seria A individually.
Lampard - again played a lot as an AM which is what you'd say a #10 in that Chelsea formation and was fantastic in 04-05 scoring some great numbers in prem - like 30 goals + assists and 4 excellent games against Barca and Bayern in CL where he was his team top man.

Winning the Don Ballon I'd take with a pinch of salt,

I take winning the Ballon D'Or with a shaker of salt too I love Nedved but it was pretty clear Henry was on another level to Nedved that year. Henry really should have won. No one in the world I would rather have than Henry those 3 years of his peak.

Besides that I tend to agree with Gio. I don't see those players you list as real no.10s. Nedved and 'dinho considering their preferred position on the field, if I was being pedantic I'd probably call them LAM. I also don't see Lampard as a no.10 in any way. That Chelsea 433 didn't have any version of a classic 10. Just because Lampard liked to surge into the box and take shots in a 433 doesn't mean he was really a 10 in playstyle in any way. Zidane was definitely past his prime and not putting in WC performances week in, week out in La Liga at this era. Kaka is the only one I think has a case here and even then he really started to excel after the 04-06 period Gio mentioned.

 

[Enigma_87]

Zidane was well past his best post 2004. People often conflate his performances in the knockout stages of the 2006 World Cup as evidence of his longevity, but anyone who watched La Liga regularly saw he was nowhere near best in the world material during 2004/05 and 2005/06. Nedved was closer to his peak but he was still between the ages of 32 and 34 and it's not a stretch to suggest that a Riquelme at the peak of his powers was more influential by that point. I'm not really buying the consistency point - Riquelme routinely performed well during 2004/05 and 2005/06. The penalty was obviously a missed opportunity which doesn't reflect well on his character, and had he scored it and had Villarreal gone on to win that Champions League his standing would be higher. But he was clearly the best player on the park in that game and his ability to help dominate the match put Villarreal into the position in the first place. More generally I wouldn't overstate it given it's happened to many greats at key stages of major tournaments (Maradona, 1990; Van Basten, 1992; Baggio, 1994; Baresi, 1994; Ronaldo, 2008, etc). As for Djalminha, he just didn't perform as consistently as Riquelme did at his peak, nor was he such a central figure in one team's success. Super Depor had a lot of great players and their system didn't hinge so decisively around a single force.

Riquelme was as inconsistent as those mentioned who were off their peak. That's the thing, at their peak they are another level compared to him. For the game against Arsenal it's not the penalty as it is(I know many greats missed during their peak), but the way it turned out - at one of the best games in his career.

I take winning the Ballon D'Or with a shaker of salt too I love Nedved but it was pretty clear Henry was on another level to Nedved that year. Henry really should have won. No one in the world I would rather have than Henry those 3 years of his peak.

Besides that I tend to agree with Gio. I don't see those players you list as real no.10s. Nedved and 'dinho considering their preferred position on the field, if I was being pedantic I'd probably call them LAM. I also don't see Lampard as a no.10 in any way. That Chelsea 433 didn't have any version of a classic 10. Just because Lampard liked to surge into the box and take shots in a 433 doesn't mean he was really a 10 in playstyle in any way. Zidane was definitely past his prime and not putting in WC performances week in, week out in La Liga at this era. Kaka is the only one I think has a case here and even then he really started to excel after the 04-06 period Gio mentioned.

Even if you put Nedved as the second best to Henry he's still way above Riquelme which was the point in question .

Being a #10 in a position and system no one of the top players play exactly in terms of formation doesn't mean that he's better than versatile players who are class above him and are capable of playing all sorts of position in attack and excelling in all.

Putting Riquelme next to those names is certainly overrating him.

He doesn't have their physicality(pace), versatility, work rate and goal threat (half of his goals at his peak were penos). In essence he's a lesser player than either of them. Playing as a designated #10 when all the top teams at the time didn't play with one doesn't make him a better player than them. Put Ronaldinho at #10 at his peak and he's again twice the player Riquelme ever was.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Riquelme was as inconsistent as those mentioned who were off their peak. That's the thing, at their peak they are another level compared to him. For the game against Arsenal it's not the penalty as it is(I know many greats missed during their peak), but the way it turned out - at one of the best games in his career.



Even if you put Nedved as the second best to Henry he's still way above Riquelme which was the point in question .

Being a #10 in a position and system no one of the top players play exactly in terms of formation doesn't mean that he's better than versatile players who are class above him and are capable of playing all sorts of position in attack and excelling in all.

Putting Riquelme next to those names is certainly overrating him.

He doesn't have their physicality(pace), versatility, work rate and goal threat (half of his goals at his peak were penos). In essence he's a lesser player than either of them. Playing as a designated #10 when all the top teams at the time didn't play with one doesn't make him a better player than them. Put Ronaldinho at #10 at his peak and he's again twice the player Riquelme ever was.

Thats a fair point but I don't think anyone was ever arguing Riquelme was better than 'dinho just that Riquelme was more of a classic 10. Perhaps even the last of that mold of player.

And thats going beyond the scope here anyway. I still believe Riquelme was better here as an AMC than David Silva as a CM in a 433 but fair play if you disagree

 

[Enigma_87]

Thats a fair point but I don't think anyone was ever arguing Riquelme was better than 'dinho just that Riquelme was more of a classic 10. Perhaps even the last of that mold of player.

And thats going beyond the scope here anyway. I still believe Riquelme was better here as an AMC than David Silva as a CM in a 433 but fair play if you disagree

It's a tough one re Silva/Riquelme. I'll take Silva because he brings more to the table in terms of versatility and balance. He'll blend easily as a #10, RM, RW or the most attacking midfielder in 4-3-3. Doesn't require that much of fitting in or specific formation.

I can see some picking him before Silva but again I don't rate Riquelme as one of the generation greats to warrant the idea of putting a team around him.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It's a tough one re Silva/Riquelme. I'll take Silva because he brings more to the table in terms of versatility and balance. He'll blend easily as a #10, RM, RW or the most attacking midfielder in 4-3-3. Doesn't require that much of fitting in or specific formation.

I can see some picking him before Silva but again I don't rate Riquelme as one of the generation greats to warrant the idea of putting a team around him.

If you are talking about an actual football club, sure I can agree. But if you mean building a Draft team around him I disagree. I think he is exactly the kind of mercurial talent that would be fun to build a draft around (probably not an All-Time one but a generation one like this? sure). I'm finding that what I like most about drafts is trying to research and really learn about players below that top tier that everyone has known for years. Was watching some 1994 World Cup matches this past week and I realized I completely forgot about an undrafted player (actually two or three) I really should have picked for my side and tried to big up. Those types of things make the drafts fun. And also, as we all know the team with the shiniest names on paper does not always win on the pitch.

 

[Enigma_87]

If you are talking about an actual football club, sure I can agree. But if you mean building a Draft team around him I disagree. I think he is exactly the kind of mercurial talent that would be fun to build a draft around (probably not an All-Time one but a generation one like this? sure). I'm finding that what I like most about drafts is trying to research and really learn about players below that top tier that everyone has known for years. Was watching some 1994 World Cup matches this past week and I realized I completely forgot about an undrafted player (actually two or three) I really should have picked for my side and tried to big up. Those types of things make the drafts fun. And also, as we all know the team with the shiniest names on paper does not always win on the pitch.

Yeah football club. In terms of drafts I tend to go after favorite players or to have at least 2-3 in a team or someone who I haven't picked. Cantona, Del Piero, Batistuta, MvB are ones that I'd love to pick in the next ones if given the chance.

Especially Cantona as I haven't seen someone build a team around him which is a pity.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Especially Cantona as I haven't seen someone build a team around him which is a pity.

442?

 

[Enigma_87]

442?

yeah that's what I'm thinking probably. We'll see.

 

[Gio]

Yeah football club. In terms of drafts I tend to go after favorite players or to have at least 2-3 in a team or someone who I haven't picked. Cantona, Del Piero, Batistuta, MvB are ones that I'd love to pick in the next ones if given the chance.

Especially Cantona as I haven't seen someone build a team around him which is a pity.

Aye Cantona got a run out in the 60s and Prem drafts with IIRC Dan Nistelroy and Polaroid. But they were a good few years ago and he's ripe for another shot.

 

[Enigma_87]

Aye Cantona got a run out in the 60s and Prem drafts with IIRC Dan Nistelroy and Polaroid. But they were a good few years ago and he's ripe for another shot.

I think that's the only one I remember him featuring in:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pl-...od-united-vs-team-cutch.359507/#post-12289627

There were calls for United draft where he surely will be a centerpiece but probably won't work well with 16 managers pool.