The Americas Draft, QF1: Tuppet vs Skizzo/Pat

[Chesterlestreet]

NOTE: Voters are encouraged to read the managers' write-ups and arguments before voting. Votes cannot be changed once submitted.

TEAM TUPPET

Tactic:

• Formation - 4-3-3
  
  
• Defensive line - Standard, pushing up but not crazy high.
  
  
• Philosophy - Attack attack attack. Try to move the ball forward and towards goal with quick passes and direct runs. Unlike last game we don't prioritize holding possession, but we are not playing entirely counter attacking football. We would still try to dominate the game, and with the virtue of our fantastic midfield likely have more possession but we would be more direct than a tiki taka side.

• Minimal crossing in air, try to keep the ball on ground. Wide forwards encouraged to cut inside and dribble with the ball, full backs encouraged to get forward.

• While in Attacking phase central defenders are encouraged to go wide to allow full backs to push forward. Monti would drop in between to keep 3 defenders at the back.
  
  
• Primary source of creativity in my team are Ademir, Scarone and Alves with Romario, Monti & Vidal providing added support with their flair and creativity.
  
  
• Romario and Labruna are the primary goal scorer of my team with Ademir and Scarone trying to chip in as well.

There are many unknown players in my team and I have done an expanded write down on some of them here - Ademir Da guia and Hector Scarone .

In keeping with South American tradition, this team is built to attack and dominate the game as much as possible. We won't be sitting back and soaking pressure cause we won't know how to do it. As such we believe that the best formation to get this working would be a modern 4-3-3.

More individual and detailed instructions follow -

Attack​

• On the right side Scarone would be playing as a creative inside right. As the most creative and hard working of our forwards, he would look to drop deep and create opportunities for rest of my attack. This is the role he has always played and excelled in, playing with a brilliant poacher in Castro and a goal scoring inside left Pedro Cea to win the world cup and 2 olympic gold medals.
  
  
• From the left side Angel Labruna would play as a direct and goal scoring inside left forward. His role is to use his acceleration and finishing ability to cut inside and make direct runs to goal.
  
  
• Playing as front 3 of 4-3-3, my wide forwards do not act like wingers and both would be cutting in towards goal. This is quite normal in modern formations and is similar to Barca's MSN or their 2008 version with Henry-Eto'o-Messi or even as a less successful variant our own Martial-Ibra-Mata. The oft repeated lack of width argument would probably rear its head again, so I would like to just mention here that many successful teams have played and continue to play this way and are hardly hampered with a lack of width.
  
  
• There are way too many goals in my front line to be contained by any defense. Labruna is River Plate's highest scorer ever, superclásico highest scorer ever, nine time champion with River and the second highest goal scorer in Argentina league history (2 goals behind Erico). Romario is well Romario, one of the greatest goal scorer in history and Scarone is the third highest goal scorer for Uruguay national team. Both Romario and Scarone are also very creative with great vision and passing.

Midfield
​

Midfield is again a straight forward combination of a Holder - B2B midfielder and creative playmaker. Monti would be playing his usual half back role. Starting the attack from deep in his own using his excellent technical skills, while also dropping deep to defense line when needed.

Vidal would be playing the box to box role that he has been one of the best in past few years, covering every blade of grass and providing defensive cover on right side when needed.

Ademir is the primary playmaker of the team, he would be the one controlling the game and setting the tempo for our attack.

Defense
​

Our fullbacks especially Dani Alves are encouraged to move forward and support the attack. At his peak Alves was one of the most important player in one of the greatest club sides. Regularly providing width and attacking support while also keeping hold of whichever winger faces him.

Andrade would be doing the same on left side. He is probably not as technically gifted as Alves, but he would use his physicality to run up and down on left wing and support the attack.

Perfumo would be the leader of my defense from back, a cultured defender who was known as "El Mariscal" for his leadership qualities and calming influence he is perfect partner as a covering defender for the more steely Matosas.

Matosas would play as the stopper, providing aggression and ariel dominance to the backline.

Finally as goalkeeper I have Amadeo Carrizo in a sweeper keeper role, as arguable the first goal keeper to perform a similar role and one of the greatest goalkeeper of all time he provides stability to defense and confidence to push higher.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM SKIZZO/PAT

We line up again in a 4-3-3 formation, built around arguably the ideal playmaker/centre forward combination in the draft in Bochini and Ronaldo. Thiago Silva slots in at centre back to bolster our defence, and his pace and anticipation makes him a sound fit to mitigate against the brilliance of Romario. Leo Junior reverts to his more celebrated left back position, with the excellent Uruguayans Pereyra and Pablo Forlan rounding out the defence.

Diego Simeone enters the squad and joins Rattin to form an abrasive and ultra-competitive midfield. With Rattin as a holding foil and Junior’s natural command of assisting the midfield from his full back position, Simeone will have considerable freedom to impose his natural, roving game on proceedings here, breaking forward to reprise his peak Atletico-era goal threat, and hunting for the ball all over the park.

Chilean great Enrique Hormazábal replaces Daniel Bertoni. Player of the tournament at the 1955 Copa America, and top scorer in that competition a year later, he’ll provide a creative, goalscoring outlet on our right wing. Juan Joya on our left will seek to either peg Dani Alves back or exploit the space behind him. Bochini and Ronaldo are the centrepiece of the team. With Rattin and Simeone providing the muscle and industry behind him, Bochini is well poised to impose his first-rate creativity on the game here, and with this level of service the best centre forward in the draft will be too much for Tuppet’s centre backs to handle.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Tuppet @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

Good luck, gents.

 

[Physiocrat]

Some very well constructed teams here. Tuppet has gone for a very smooth contemporary 433 formation- a Monti and attacking full-backs are a must with just playing inside forwards. Pat has more traditional wingers in a 4231 with the hybird LB role of Junior which will certainly help in possession.

I'm leaning to Pat at the mo as his wingers could negate Tuppet's full-backs pushing up enough to stretch the play.

 

[antohan]

Crap, lovely stuff, will actually have to read the exchanges and managers views on their players before voting.

Thanks for not posting never-ending walls of text and gifs but a link to player profiles would come handy. Knowing the subs and what options managers had also always helps.

Dropping Bertoni for Hormazábal is an odd one in a side featuring Bochini. I assume it's down to the 6-player rule?

 

[Moby]

Knowing the subs

Making subs during the game aren't allowed anymore.

 

[Enigma_87]

Dropping Bertoni for Hormazábal is an odd one in a side featuring Bochini. I assume it's down to the 6-player rule?

Yup, Skizzo/Pat have Forlan, Hormazabal, Joya and Pereyra from pool 2, so they had to play him instead of Bertoni.

Two strong teams will see how discussions goes before voting - like the new system.

Same formation and similar roles, it will be down to the individuals and team cohesion IMO.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not really sure on Romario's fit for the role. It was Loustau and Pedernera that mostly operated left with Labruna cutting in seamlessly. Would he work well with a Romario type player? I'd have preferred a more rounded striker who can bring others into play.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Crap, lovely stuff, will actually have to read the exchanges and managers views on their players before voting.

Thanks for not posting never-ending walls of text and gifs but a link to player profiles would come handy. Knowing the subs and what options managers had also always helps.

Dropping Bertoni for Hormazábal is an odd one in a side featuring Bochini. I assume it's down to the 6-player rule?

Aye, its down to that rule. I don't think the Bochini/Bertoni combination got mentioned at all last match by anyone other than myself though so I wasn't unduly bothered about dropping him, from a voting perspective anyway.

I did brief profiles for our starting XI in the OP for our first match here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-americas-draft-r1-physio-vs-skizzo-pat-8-8.421828/#post-19804991

and here's our current squad, with the Pool 2 players bolded:

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU) 10. Taffarel (BRA) 11. C. Mozer (BRA) 12. D. Bertoni (ARG) 13. Bebeto (BRA) 14. Enrique Hormazábal (CHI) 15. Thiago Silva (BRA) 16. D. Simeone (ARG)

 

[Theon]

Gone for Tuppet as I think he has the superior threat on the flanks - hard to argue with those fullbacks and Scarone / Labruna look great in those roles and both bring a real goal threat.

I wasn't familiar with Scarone before but he looks some player - and Labruna was obviously excellent in that inside left role for River Plate. Tactically I think it makes sense to have someone like Labruna next to Romario as he won't leave him isolated.

Both midfields are good but I also marginally prefer Tuppet's set up there. Simeone is IMO always overrated in these drafts.

 

[crappycraperson]

Can't see formation pics?

 

[Tuppet]

Not really sure on Romario's fit for the role. It was Loustau and Pedernera that mostly operated left with Labruna cutting in seamlessly. Would he work well with a Romario type player? I'd have preferred a more rounded striker who can bring others into play.

I'd be hard pressed to find a Striker more rounded than Romario tbh. His vision, passing and creativity and ability to create chances was second to no one. As per the fit, consider the role of Labruna, its almost exactly the same as the role of Stoichkov used to play before Romario came to the dream team. Stoichkov used to be the main striker taking the space of a dropping false number 9 in Laudrup. Laburna did exactly the same with Pedernera for La Maquina. Romario would slot in seemlessly in this partneship as he did in the dream team. Also Romario has always played well when he is not isolated in the box and is provided with a partner, be it bebeto or Stoichkov or Ronaldo.

 

[Tuppet]

I'm leaning to Pat at the mo as his wingers could negate Tuppet's full-backs pushing up enough to stretch the play.

This is what I am afraid that people would assume, but consider in real world, this has almost never hampered the likes of Alves from providing width and yet keeping likes of Cristiano quite and it wasn't just the Barca system either. There are plenty of occasion when he has outmatched his opponent using purely his physical and defensive skills while still providing width and playmaking.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

My first thought is to agree with @Theon. I would have rated Pat/Skizzo side more if they selected Clodoaldo, Danilo or Cerezo to replace Junior in midfield. I'm not sure Simeone the player offers enough of what they need here. Junior offered quite a well balanced mix of qualities in midfield. I think Simeone as replacement instead of one of the other three Brazilians makes that midfield less well rounded and a bit less versatile which could give tuppet the edge in a game of this level.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Not really sure on Romario's fit for the role. It was Loustau and Pedernera that mostly operated left with Labruna cutting in seamlessly. Would he work well with a Romario type player? I'd have preferred a more rounded striker who can bring others into play.

Aye, I wasn't sure that Tuppet would start Labruna for that reason. Its hard to garner too much information about Labruna but he seemed to be the most single-minded goalscorer in that La Maquina team from previous research, mostly about finishing and excellent off the ball movement to move into goalscoring positions vacated by the deep-dropping Pedernera. I can't see Romario really tailoring his movement around creating space and chances for Labruna, so I don't see much complementarity there.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Labruna is one of the best pure goalscorers in Argentinian league history , in this game he appears to be in loustaos position. Definitely doesn't work with him and Romario and it's one of the only weaknesses I can see in either team really

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Some very well constructed teams here. Tuppet has gone for a very smooth contemporary 433 formation- a Monti and attacking full-backs are a must with just playing inside forwards. Pat has more traditional wingers in a 4231 with the hybird LB role of Junior which will certainly help in possession.

I'm leaning to Pat at the mo as his wingers could negate Tuppet's full-backs pushing up enough to stretch the play.

TBH I'd agree with Tuppet that Dani Alves will push on and provide width when they have possession, and of course that'll pose us problems, but Joya will both keep him honest and punish the lapses in positioning and concentration that did hinder his defensive game. The Barca system, with the emphasis on high pressing and quickly regaining possession, did protect him in that regard, and it won'tbe duplicated here with Romario rarely showing any interest in defending and Labruna being suspect in the stamina stakes too:

Félix Loustau (about Labruna) wrote:
“I never smoked less than two cigarette packs a day, but I didn't have problems with breath. I could run all the time. But Labruna got tired easily, however, from 100 shots he took, he scored 99 goals.

On Tuppet's left side, however, IIRC Victor Andrade was defensive-minded even in an era of defensive-minded full backs, and Labruna isn't going to hugging the touchline. Ademir didn't seem to have the dynamism to get out there regularly either, so that side of the pitch will presumably be very narrow for Tupet when he's in possession.

 

[Tuppet]

I wanted to do a big profile on Labruna, but couldn't find the time. Just my 2 cents on the topic of Labruna's role and fit here -

The greatest thing about La Maquina was not really their domination of Argentine league, they won a fair few. But similar to Netherlands of 70s it was more about their style of play rather than how much they won. Now from previous drafts I have came across a horde of teams claiming to be the precursor of Total football style, La Maquina was one of them. One revolutionary tactical aspect that the La Maquina of River introduced was a stratification of the forward line. The two outside forwards were mostly wide (Although Loustau usually cut in and switched with Labruna), but the three fellas in the center had a very organized tactical scheme.

Role of Loustau was very interesting as he frequently moved to center and try to score goals himself, getting more than 100 goals in process. This site for example claims -

He basically played as left-winger in this sytem and sometimes interchange position with Angel Labruna in inside-forward role

His intelligence was also one of the things that stood out in his game, the man was quite confident about it as well -

I confess I do not quite understand anything about many things. But in football, I say that no one who knows more than me.

This mean Labruna used to go out on the outside left side as well. There is no doubt that he was the best finisher on the La maquina side but that doesn't mean he used to hang on the goalmouth all the time. The stats also show a similar story -
Labruna - 293 goals
Moreno - 160 goals
Pedernera - 131 goals
Loustau - 101 goals.

Thats a good goal spread. Also Labruna had a really long career where he was really two players, in his 30s and 40s he did become a poacher (one of the finest in the history) but before that he was a very dynamic left sided forward for the Maquina side. I am not trying to pass him as a winger either. As I mentioned he is a forward and his main role in my squad is to score goals and help Romario to score goals. He is not an outside left like Loustau but he was not by any means a center forward like Lawton or Greaves. His role is very similar to what Villa / Henry / Martial / Stoichkov /CR7 have played over the year, which is a left sided forward.

EDIT:
Another good example of his game you would find is when Pedernera left River and Di Stefano took his helm. I remember reading somewhere where Di Stefano compared Labruna's role to Puskas role in Real Madrid. Both were inside left for their respective teams. Which is as close as you get with Labruna - a Puskas or a young Pele-esque role in providing support for the striker.

 

[Enigma_87]

On Tuppet's left side, however, IIRC Victor Andrade was defensive-minded even in an era of defensive-minded full backs, and Labruna isn't going to hugging the touchline. Ademir didn't seem to have the dynamism to get out there regularly either, so that side of the pitch will presumably be very narrow for Tupet when he's in possession.

That seems to me as a concern as well looking at the formation. The right side looks very good with Scarone as an right forward and Dani Alves overlapping.

Any reason why you got Simeone there @Pat_Mustard ? I thought Cerezo would be a great fit for you with Junior switched on the left.

 

[antohan]

Making subs during the game aren't allowed anymore.

It doesn't matter, knowing the squad is always helpful in terms of working out the options a manager had and decisions they made, brave or otherwise.

 

[Tuppet]

On Victor Andrade, may be @antohan could fill us better but just because he was a fantastic defender does not mean he won't go up and down the pitch and provide support. From what I've read he was more of a Thuram or Abidal style of defender (probably more attacking), defensively solid but that doesn't stop them from going forward.

 

[Tuppet]

Labruna is one of the best pure goalscorers in Argentinian league history , in this game he appears to be in loustaos position. Definitely doesn't work with him and Romario and it's one of the only weaknesses I can see in either team really

I did took some inspiration from your remake of La Maquina in the remake draft. You had Henry there, which I thought was a good fit, so yeah this is similar to an Henry/Romario partnership.

 

[Tuppet]

My subs are - O. Caetano, Luis Cubilla, Antonio Sastre, Deco and Juan Seminiaro

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I did took some inspiration from your remake of La Maquina in the remake draft. You had Henry there, which I thought was a good fit, so yeah this is similar to an Henry/Romario partnership.

I'm maybe just getting put off by the graphic. Looks like a Neymar role almost ( which if you had HIM besides Romario , game over )

 

[Tuppet]

Also like for people to take notice of superior midfield that we have - As playmakers Da guia and Bochini are about the same, have a similar story as well. Both legends of their clubs but not given chances in world cup campaigns due to other players playing in similar position. Although IFFHS did rate Da guia as 34th greatest SA player of century while Bochini did not make the cut. I am not claiming it conclusive or anything but something which gives an idea of player's standing somewhat. Monti is clearly a cut above Rattin, while Vidal and Simione are similar but Vidal probably takes the edge as well. Slim margins but it is a close game.

While on the topic of IFFHS voting, all 3 of my forwards and my primary playmaker are voted in top 50 players ever.
20. Héctor Scarone
26.Angel Amadeo Labruna
30.Romário de Souza Faria
34. Ademir da Guía
Thats insane firepower and it would take some doing stopping by any defense -

1."Pelé"                 (Brazil)         220  (Edson Arantes do Nascimento)
 2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina)      193
 3.Alfredo di Stéfano     (Argentina)      161
 4.Garrincha              (Brazil)         142  (Manoel dos Santos Garrincha)
 5.José Manuel Moreno     (Argentina)       82
 6.Juan Alberto Schiaffino(Uruguay)         52
 7."Zico"                 (Brazil)          51  (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
 8.Arsenio Pastor Erico   (Paraguay)        42
   Elías Ricardo Figueroa (Chile)           42
10.Thomas Soãres "Zizinho"(Brazil)          40
11.Luis Alberto Cubilla   (Uruguay)         25
12.Adolfo Pedernera       (Argentina)       24
13.Arthur Friedenreich    (Brazil)          21
   "Tostão"               (Brazil)          21  (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
   Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay)         21
16.Enrique Omar Sivori    (Argentina)       19
17.Teófilo Cubillas       (Peru)            17
   Valdir Pereira Didi    (Brazil)          17
   Willington Ortiz       (Colombia)        17
20.José Leandro Andrade   (Uruguay)         16
   Héctor Scarone         (Uruguay)         16
   Alberto Spencer        (Ecuador)         16
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
23.Mario Alberto Kempes   (Argentina)       15
24.Enzo Francescoli       (Uruguay)         13
   Leônidas da Silva      (Brazil)          13
26.Angel Amadeo Labruna   (Argentina)       12
   José Nasazzi           (Uruguay)         12
   Nílton dos Santos      (Brazil)          12
   Ronaldo                (Brazil)          12  (Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima)
30.Romário de Souza Faria (Brazil)          11
31.Paulo Roberto Falcão   (Brazil)          10
   Roberto Rivelino       (Brazil)          10
   José Marcelo Salas     (Chile)           10
34.Ademir da Guía         (Brazil)           9
35.Héctor Chumpitaz       (Peru)             8
   Daniel Alberto Passarella(Argentina)      8
37.Luís Edmundo Pereira   (Brazil)           7
   Pedro Virgilio Rocha   (Uruguay)          7
39.Carlos Alberto Valderrama(Colombia)       6
40.Carlos Alberto Torres  (Brazil)           5
   Leonel Sánchez         (Chile)            5
   Iván Luis Zamorano     (Chile)            5
43.Domingos Antônio da Guía(Brazil)          4
44.Ademir Marquez de Menezes(Brazil)         3
   Pedro Cea              (Uruguay)          3
   Raimundo Orsi          (Argentina)        3

And one last shout out to the IFFHS SA goalkeeper of the century Carrizo on the other end as well. If only I can get them IFFHS voters to vote in this draft, this game would be over in no time

 

[Tuppet]

I'm maybe just getting put off by the graphic. Looks like a Neymar role almost ( which if you had HIM besides Romario , game over )

Which is what I mentioned saying its similar to MSN, with N being Labruna here.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Which is what I mentioned saying its similar to MSN, with N being Labruna here.

That's the thing , I picked Henry to replicate him based on Henry's most successful role. Here it looks like Labruna is starting in the Henry of juventus role. It just doesn't quite work for me with Romario there.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

My first thought is to agree with @Theon. I would have rated Pat/Skizzo side more if they selected Clodoaldo, Danilo or Cerezo to replace Junior in midfield. I'm not sure Simeone the player offers enough of what they need here. Junior offered quite a well balanced mix of qualities in midfield. I think Simeone as replacement instead of one of the other three Brazilians makes that midfield less well rounded and a bit less versatile which could give tuppet the edge in a game of this level.

That seems to me as a concern as well looking at the formation. The right side looks very good with Scarone as an right forward and Dani Alves overlapping.

Any reason why you got Simeone there @Pat_Mustard ? I thought Cerezo would be a great fit for you with Junior switched on the left.

In all honesty Simeone isn't a massive favourite of mine generally. We liked him here though because we already had Rattin as the holding player and we felt his dynamism and ability to cover the whole pitch meshed better with Rattin and Bochini than another holding player like Cerezo. IMO what we sacrificed in on the ball ability is compensated by Junior's supplementary playmaking from leftback anyway. In this particular match we felt that he'd be a great stylistic fit to thwart Ademir, who for all his skill was a very slow player who might struggle with that intensity of pressing.

 

[Enigma_87]

In all honesty Simeone isn't a massive favourite of mine generally. We liked him here though because we already had Rattin as the holding player and we felt his dynamism and ability to cover the whole pitch meshed better with Rattin and Bochini than another holding player like Cerezo. IMO what we sacrificed in on the ball ability is compensated by Junior's supplementary playmaking from leftback anyway. In this particular match we felt that he'd be a great stylistic fit to thwart Ademir, who for all his skill was a very slow player who might struggle with that intensity of pressing.

I see. I like Simeone, but probably there would've been better fits, especially in pool 1.

Fine margins and all that. It's a tight game this I like the balance of your side a bit more. Cerezo IMO is the better passer than Simeone for example and he was pretty dynamic at Samp. Could play box to box, and in central and holding role.

Like Tuppet's side a lot and his upgrades fit very well - Vidal in box to box and switching Andrade to the left and getting Alves on the right, so it was a touch choice alright.

 

[harms]

Would love to hear more about Enrique Hormazábal if possible

 

[Joga Bonito]

Perfumo would be the leader of my defense from back, a cultured defender who was known as "El Mariscal" for his leadership qualities and calming influence he is perfect partner as a covering defender for the more steely Matosas.

Matosas would play as the stopper, providing aggression and ariel dominance to the backline.

From the matches that I watched of them, I found the opposite to be true. Whilst Perfumo was fairly good-ish on the ball, he was more of a physical and an aggressive no-nonsense defender, whilst Matosas was a really cultured player on the ball (at times venturing forward to support the midfield) and someone who relied on the reading of the game as opposed to his physicality.

 

[antohan]

In all honesty Simeone isn't a massive favourite of mine generally. We liked him here though because we already had Rattin as the holding player and we felt his dynamism and ability to cover the whole pitch meshed better with Rattin and Bochini than another holding player like Cerezo. IMO what we sacrificed in on the ball ability is compensated by Junior's supplementary playmaking from leftback anyway. In this particular match we felt that he'd be a great stylistic fit to thwart Ademir, who for all his skill was a very slow player who might struggle with that intensity of pressing.

I don't see the problem myself either. If anything he was a relative misfit as a holding DM in his previous game (although given the company he was in that was the right role for someone like him).

 

[antohan]

From the matches that I watched of them, I found the opposite to be true. Whilst Perfumo was fairly good-ish on the ball, he was more of a physical and an aggressive no-nonsense defender, whilst Matosas was a really cultured player on the ball (at times venturing forward to support the midfield) and someone who relied on the reading of the game as opposed to his physicality.

I'd agree, what set him (Matosas) apart from the average Uruguayan defender was him not being the agricultural type at all. Mind you, the same holds for Pereyra.

Physically he did look every bit a mean stopper, which may be the source of confusion.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Also like for people to take notice of superior midfield that we have - As playmakers Da guia and Bochini are about the same, have a similar story as well. Both legends of their clubs but not given chances in world cup campaigns due to other players playing in similar position. Although IFFHS did rate Da guia as 34th greatest SA player of century while Bochini did not make the cut. I am not claiming it conclusive or anything but something which gives an idea of player's standing somewhat. Monti is clearly a cut above Rattin, while Vidal and Simione are similar but Vidal probably takes the edge as well. Slim margins but it is a close game.

While on the topic of IFFHS voting, all 3 of my forwards and my primary playmaker are voted in top 50 players ever.
20. Héctor Scarone
26.Angel Amadeo Labruna
30.Romário de Souza Faria
34. Ademir da Guía
Thats insane firepower and it would take some doing stopping by any defense -

1."Pelé"                 (Brazil)         220  (Edson Arantes do Nascimento)
 2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina)      193
 3.Alfredo di Stéfano     (Argentina)      161
 4.Garrincha              (Brazil)         142  (Manoel dos Santos Garrincha)
 5.José Manuel Moreno     (Argentina)       82
 6.Juan Alberto Schiaffino(Uruguay)         52
 7."Zico"                 (Brazil)          51  (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
 8.Arsenio Pastor Erico   (Paraguay)        42
   Elías Ricardo Figueroa (Chile)           42
10.Thomas Soãres "Zizinho"(Brazil)          40
11.Luis Alberto Cubilla   (Uruguay)         25
12.Adolfo Pedernera       (Argentina)       24
13.Arthur Friedenreich    (Brazil)          21
   "Tostão"               (Brazil)          21  (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
   Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay)         21
16.Enrique Omar Sivori    (Argentina)       19
17.Teófilo Cubillas       (Peru)            17
   Valdir Pereira Didi    (Brazil)          17
   Willington Ortiz       (Colombia)        17
20.José Leandro Andrade   (Uruguay)         16
   Héctor Scarone         (Uruguay)         16
   Alberto Spencer        (Ecuador)         16
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
23.Mario Alberto Kempes   (Argentina)       15
24.Enzo Francescoli       (Uruguay)         13
   Leônidas da Silva      (Brazil)          13
26.Angel Amadeo Labruna   (Argentina)       12
   José Nasazzi           (Uruguay)         12
   Nílton dos Santos      (Brazil)          12
   Ronaldo                (Brazil)          12  (Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima)
30.Romário de Souza Faria (Brazil)          11
31.Paulo Roberto Falcão   (Brazil)          10
   Roberto Rivelino       (Brazil)          10
   José Marcelo Salas     (Chile)           10
34.Ademir da Guía         (Brazil)           9
35.Héctor Chumpitaz       (Peru)             8
   Daniel Alberto Passarella(Argentina)      8
37.Luís Edmundo Pereira   (Brazil)           7
   Pedro Virgilio Rocha   (Uruguay)          7
39.Carlos Alberto Valderrama(Colombia)       6
40.Carlos Alberto Torres  (Brazil)           5
   Leonel Sánchez         (Chile)            5
   Iván Luis Zamorano     (Chile)            5
43.Domingos Antônio da Guía(Brazil)          4
44.Ademir Marquez de Menezes(Brazil)         3
   Pedro Cea              (Uruguay)          3
   Raimundo Orsi          (Argentina)        3

And one last shout out to the IFFHS SA goalkeeper of the century Carrizo on the other end as well. If only I can get them IFFHS voters to vote in this draft, this game would be over in no time

Aye, with my star man not even cracking the top 25 we can safely say I'm fecked if the IFHHS panel sign up to the Caf before this finishes .

I know that you aren't presenting this list as definitive, but I will point out its extremly heavy slant towards older players, with the first pick in this draft not even ranking in their top 20, and your first pick coming in at No. 30.

On Monti vs Rattin, there's no doubt that Monti was a pioneer and a defining historical figure of his era to an extent that Rattin wasn't, but in terms of actual quality in that DM position I really doubt that Monti holds much of an advantage. As per Anto's post the other day, Monti seems to have been in the top echelon of centre halves in his pomp alongside Lorenzo Fernandez, whilst Rattin was one of the elite performers in the DM role at his peak decades later. A bit from Jonathan Wilson:

These days, even in his mid-seventies, Rattin sells insurance, which seems an oddly prosaic profession for a man who remains one of the great idols of Boca and who, for England fans of a certain age, embodied the dark face of Argentinian football. Both he and Marzolini relate the story that Bobby Charlton once told them of English mothers frightening their children into eating their greens by telling them that if they didn't, Rattin would come for them. Charlton, perhaps, was using some poetic licence, but with his stooping gait and broad saturnine features, there is something of the bogeyman about Rattin. That, though, is only a fraction of the story of a player who for a time was probably the best defensive midfielder in the world.

On the Bochini/Ademir comparison, Id only point out Bochini's dominace at continental level, with his incredible record in the Copa Libertadores (and excellent Intercontinental Cup record too) contrasting favourably with Ademir's achievements outside of Brazilian domestic football. Also, Bochini achieved a third place in the South American Footballer of the Year award and won an Argentine Footballer of the Year, whereas Ademir never featured in the top three in the South American Footballer of the Year, and never won a Bola de Ouro in Brazil.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Would love to hear more about Enrique Hormazábal if possible

Sure mate, not that I'm in any way well-informed about him myself. He's seen as Colo Colo's greatest player, and right up there alongside Leonel Sanchez and one or two others as the second best Chilean player ever behind Figueroa. He won best player at the 1955 Copa America and was top scorer in the 1956 Copa America.

He was described as 'polyvalent' by a Chilean poster on another forum, a well-rounded attacker who would sit more towards the inside forward end of the spectrum rather than an out and out winger. From a South American blog, complete with dodgy Google Translate:

15 Enrique Hormazábal
CUA CUA (1948-1965)

Position: Attacking Midfield, right end
Emblem Club: Colo Colo (Chile)
Honours: Club: - Chilean League (3): 1956, 1960, 1963
- Copa Chile (1): 1958
Individual: - Best Player of the Copa America (2): 1955, 1956
- Top scorer in the Copa America (1): 1956

Enrique Hormazábal is one of the best Chilean soccer players of history, if not the best behind Elias Figueroa. It was a very complete playmaker who could also play as a right pointer and had a great technical skill, streetwise and combative game, much precision passing long distance, a temper on the field and a great goalscorer. He debuted professionally with Santiago Morning and in 1956 joined Colo Colo, with whom he played for a decade becoming its main creative axis and an accomplished filmmaker, as certified by his 85 goals in 178 games. It is thus very likely the best player in the history of the club albo. Chile was the main figure of the Copa America 1955 and 1956, both times finishing as runner - up, but could not participate in the 1962 World Cup due to differences in character with then coach of the national team, Fernando Riera.

His excellent long-range passing seems to garner quite regular mention, and his performance against Brazil in the '56 Copa seems to have been a real standout. Chile won 4-1 and he scored twice against a side containing the likes of Djalma Santos, but annoyingly I can find no video of it.

Another Google Translate effort about his 1955 Copa America:

Enrique Hormazábal had long been making news in the Chilean football. And not only at the local level: he had already shown his credentials good player in the 1952 Pan American Championship in Chile finished second, escorting Brazil; in the South American of Lima, in 1953, where the Red finished fourth with Francisco "Paco" Molina as dazzling star, and in qualifying for the World Cup in Switzerland in 1954, where he finished without points after facing Paraguay and Brazil.

But it was in the South American Championship of 1955 when "Cua-Cua" finally established as a crack worthy of being among the most important values that produced the national football in its history. By now had 24 international matches in the body, just turned 24 years old and defended Santiago Morning, when the club was formed.

The adventure began with an exciting 7-1 Ecuador, with 45 thousand people in the stands of the National Stadium and scorching sun in the capital. Three of those goals were scored Hormazábal. The first, at 28 ', just as the team was starting to get nervous because it could undermine the compact defensive block rival: two Ecuadorian locked Sergio Espinoza at the entrance to the area, and "Cua-Cua" butted rebound with a right high and unstoppable for the great archer Bonnard; the second (fifth national team), at 49 '; and the third (sixth), at 54 '. The remaining Zambrano scored Guillermo Diaz (2), Rene Melendez and Jorge Robledo.

Anyway, it was considered a logical victory when Bolivia and Venezuela not yet appeared in the South American concert, Ecuador was the weakest. And so they testified earlier confrontations in Santiago: 5-0 in 1941 and 6-3 in 1945.

The next rival was Peru. And the war ended with victory goal for the Red 5-4. It was a dramatic confrontation, in which Peru rallied from a 1-4 score to be 4-4 and threaten the Chilean victory. Jaime Ramírez Banda unbalanced the duel in the final minutes and was the hero of the game. But again Hormazábal was among the players by scoring the third Chilean goal at 52 '. So much so that the magazine devoted a revealing paragraph: "A leading light of these initial days, has aroused the greed of some foreign clubs. Boca Juniors, at least, is willing to take it. "

In Uruguay, in the third game, also he scored him. It was a high-level meeting in Chile showed their candidate for the title letters, notorious establishing superiority over the "Charruas" but only equalized two. And the author of the draw was Enrique Hormazábal, at 72 'when the goalkeeper Roque Máspoli seemed unbeatable and had only been compromised his fence with a cannon shot Manuel Muñoz.

The next opponent was Paraguay. And it seemed accessible. And so it was, only with unimagined numbers: 5-0. Hormazábal could not be absent; He scored the fifth penalty at 82 '.

With 19 goals in four games, Chile loomed as a power capable of being crowned South American champion for the first time. It was enough to tie with Argentina to get the crown. But that game, won 1-0 by transandinos, it gives to another story of what happened on the court and the tragedy that caused a stampede that ended with seven dead.

In any case, nothing could erase the good performance of the team and the exceptional work of Hormazábal.

Don Pampa, pseudonym of Carlos Guerrero, was commissioned to interview on the eve of the duel with Argentina ,. And although the magazine Stadium was little praise friend, the journalist could not avoid them. This is what he wrote as presentation:

"From that afternoon with Ecuador to the last that we have seen, Paraguay, Enrique Hormazábal has been a man who has overflowed quality from every pore (...) Insider skilled, technical, poised, self-assured. Not afraid of anything, not shrink from the scrolls of the adversaries or to the vigor of those who want to impose the law of the strong detestable. At all times, even in those emergency and red flag, serene shown to meet the challenges. Dominates and controls both legs, as if the two were right. Deft, tenacious and quiet. And besides, at the right time to go forward know, seize the opportunity to outflank the defense or to shoot if you see white on networks. Two goals it sounded like thundering salvos in this championship. Both away. One he did to Ecuador, and another to Uruguay. On both occasions the archers were on the moon because they did not think the boy would shoot from such a distance. That of Ecuador, right; to Uruguay, with the left ".

"He is a player with this and this," he said that day coach Don Luis Tirado Pampa, pointing to his heart and temple.

The career of the great "Cua-Cua" would last until the mid-60s. The selection was fired in 1963; Colo Colo, who arrived the next year of this Sudamericano in 1966.

And here's a good (from what I can understand) forum post on him. I'll not copy and paste it all because its long:

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...alealbo.cl/showthread.php?t=95922&prev=search

 

[Tuppet]

Aye, with my star man not even cracking the top 25 we can safely say I'm fecked if the IFHHS panel sign up to the Caf before this finishes .

I know that you aren't presenting this list as definitive, but I will point out its extremly heavy slant towards older players, with the first pick in this draft not even ranking in their top 20, and your first pick coming in at No. 30.

On Monti vs Rattin, there's no doubt that Monti was a pioneer and a defining historical figure of his era to an extent that Rattin wasn't, but in terms of actual quality in that DM position I really doubt that Monti holds much of an advantage. As per Anto's post the other day, Monti seems to have been in the top echelon of centre halves in his pomp alongside Lorenzo Fernandez, whilst Rattin was one of the elite performers in the DM role at his peak decades later. A bit from Jonathan Wilson:



On the Bochini/Ademir comparison, Id only point out Bochini's dominace at continental level, with his incredible record in the Copa Libertadores (and excellent Intercontinental Cup record too) contrasting favourably with Ademir's achievements outside of Brazilian domestic football. Also, Bochini achieved a third place in the South American Footballer of the Year award and won an Argentine Footballer of the Year, whereas Ademir never featured in the top three in the South American Footballer of the Year, and never won a Bola de Ouro in Brazil.

I agree with the list being heavily slanted toward older players and their off the field contributions ( which is why I suppose Cubilla is so high ) and is definitely not definitive. But at the same time this makes it an excellent tool to put some perspective in the historical standing of pre war era players of whom little or no footage is available like Scarone and Labruna. I would definitely not stretch its importance too much though.

Bochini vs Ademir is probably the most interesting duel between our team. On his not featuring in SA footballer of the year or Bola de Ouro awards, we have to remember that both started in 1971 when Ademir was already in his 30s. Pele for example never won a Bola de Ouro either, and from looking in the early winners of SA player of the year (Cubillas, Tostao, Figueroa, Jairzinho etc) he was facing some stiff competition. But most importantly its him not getting a look in the WC teams is probably why he never reached to the upper echelon of these awards.

For Copa Libertadores we have to remember that Ademir da guia was playing in an incredibly competitive era of SA football. Just in Brazilian football there were easily two teams which were better than Ademir's Palmeiras -
Santos had Pelé, Coutinho, Pepe, Gilmar, Zito, Mauro, Carlos Alberto, Clodoaldo
Botafogo had Garrincha, Nílton Santos, Didi, Amarildo, Zagallo, Gérson, Jairzinho
and even Tostao and Dirceu Lopes' Cruzeiro was a force for some time. On continental level Penarol had an amazing team with likes of Spencer, Rocha, Figureoa etc. Palmeiras did reach Copa final twice but was beaten in playoff.

 

[Tuppet]

With the score currently this looks dead and buried to me, which is fine, no shame in losing to that team. But I would like to point out that it would be largely unfair to craft Labruna as some sort of pure poacher who would not work as inside forward with Romario. Time and again Romario has shown that he works best with a strike partners, Stoichkov, Ronaldo & Bebeto all have worked very well with him. Labruna's goal scoring record is immense but that does not mean he was central striker at all. His effectiveness in drifting to left side while maintining a fierce scoring rate was one of the key reasons Pedernara and Moreno worked so well in that formation. As Jonthan Wilson noted -

The fabled front five was highly mobile, thanks largely to the fact that Angel Labruna, tended to operate to the left, creating spaces for the forward surges of Moreno from an Inside right position and for Munoz to swoop in from the flank.

and Labruna himself insisted on fluidity and mobility of forwards -

A team that has players ready for just carrying out one function can't go far

And to think about this tactically as well, Labruna was playing with a false number 9 in Pedernera, you don't have a number 9 when you are playing with false number 9. You have mobile goal scoring inside forwards who then use the space vacated by false number 9 to score goals. Would such a player work with Romario, we don't even have to imagine, Stoichkov who was playing almost exactly the same role as Labruna, combined fabulosly well with Romario.

Spoiler: Dream team

On the other hand think of defenders facing two such immense goal scorer. Especially Labruna is facing Forlan, its going to be close to impossible to keep this forward line from scoring. Scarone is probably getting overlooked here as well, a creator of highest proportion, his legend is really set in history as a magical (known as el mago) goal creating inside forward. Him and Da guia creating chances for Romario and Labruna is a prospect that no defender would relish facing.

 

[Skizzo]

I voted on @Tuppet just to see the score, and it's far from over mate, enjoyed following the discussions so far!

 

[Moby]

becoming its main creative axis and an accomplished filmmaker, as certified by his 85 goals in 178 games.

 

[antohan]

Labruna is one of the best pure goalscorers in Argentinian league history , in this game he appears to be in loustaos position. Definitely doesn't work with him and Romario and it's one of the only weaknesses I can see in either team really

That's a rather deceptive depiction of Labruna. The beauty of La Maquina was the unpredictability of it. Moreno used to play CF but their manager and architect pointed out his skills would be best used starting from deeper ("You will be more effective with space and movement in front of you"), while Pedernera was a former creative winger who "was constrained by the byline and should play as a centreforward through the middle". Pedernera was the #9 but his creative instincts turned him into a false 9, possibly by accident more than design. As Labruna put it: "Adolfo was the strategist, even more distinctly than Alfredo (Di Stéfano) ever was".

So yes, they wound up playing like this much of the time, but they were unplayable because any one of those three in the middle could drop deep and create or push forward and arrive as the centreforward.

I don't get how this means Labruna wouldn't work with Romario (an outstanding all round footballer). In fact, only a few years later he played the exact same inside left role in "La Maquinita" with Walter Gomez as centreforward (and Walter Gomez defo spent more time as #9 than false 9 ala Pedernera).

Tuppet's description of his front three as MSN is a good one and, in particular, Romario in the Suarez role is a shoe in: a centreforward who will battle, give defenders hell, but who can also turn provider for the other two.