The Americas Draft, SF1 Skizzo/Pat vs Enigma/Joga

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM SKIZZO/PAT_MUSTARD

We line up in a lopsided 4-3-3 formation, centred around a fluid, multi-faceted and breathtakingly gifted attack. Brazilian legend Tostao replaces the unheralded Enrique Hormazabal. A brilliant goalscorer in his own right, Tostao is one of the great ‘facilitators’ of all time. Skilful, cerebral and selfless, he was a crucial fulcrum in making the Brazil 1970 team one of the greatest sides ever. He’ll be in his element working off Ronaldo here, and our tactical instructions to him and Ronaldo are no more complex than those of Joao Saldanha:

...until João Saldanha took over. He called me over and said, “What’s the problem with you playing?” And I said, “I don’t have a problem, apart from the fact that every coach seems to think of me as Pelé’s reserve.” And he said, “From now on that’s over. You’re the first name on the team- sheet, ahead of Pelé” — I’m sure he was joking — “and another thing; you can play badly, and it’s no problem. You’re staying in the team. It’s you and Pelé up front. Take it in turns, with one of you staying up and the other dropping. Sort it out between yourselves.” And it worked. In the World Cup qualifiers in 1969 I was top scorer.

Juan Joya will provide the width in our attack as a roving winger. Naturally right-footed, he’s positioned on the right wing on the teamsheet. With a defensively-orientated right back in Andrade behind him and a vulnerable target in Branco, we expect that he’ll spend a lot of time on that flank, but he has the freedom to switch wings at will, stretching the opposition defence, keeping them guessing, and opening up space in the middle.

With Antonio Rattin anchoring, Junior is restored to his Serie A-era central midfield position, providing a weighty contribution in both the defensive and attacking phases and offering an additional playmaking avenue alongside Bochini. Bochini, with his innate footballing intelligence and superlative passing abilities, will orchestrate the pace and flow of our attacks, looking for the quick counter when its on or directing a measured build up otherwise.

With Pablo Forlan still cowering in the corner of the dressing room and weeping softly after the rodgering Labruna gave him last time out, Victor Andrade comes in at right back, and exponentially increases the solidity of our defence. Arguably the best defensive right back in the pool, he should be able to keep Sosa quiet here, and in Andrade/Thiago Silva/Pereyra/Pavoni, with Rattin anchoring, we now sport an imposing defensive base behind our irrepressible attack.

The Garrincha Conundrum:

He’s been the decisive player in the draft so far, and there’s no denying the brilliance of a Garrincha/Zanetti right flank. That said, we quickly discarded the option of shifting Andrade to the left - we have far too much attacking firepower of our own to imbalance our team like that to deal with one player, as great as he is. The dogged, uncompromising Pavoni, a specialist left back and winner of 5 Copa Libertadores with Independiente, will be a stronger bulwark against Garrincha than either Gambetta or Cordoba were, and he’ll be supported by Leo Junior, with his extensive experience of defending the left wing.

Juan Joya vs Branco: Branco was very good on the attack but much less convincing defensively, so we expect a lot of joy here, with all sorts of space opening up for the likes of Tostao and Ronaldo when Joya does beat Branco. He’s good enough to pose Zanetti problems too when he’s on that side, but Branco will be the weakest link.

Ruggeri vs Ronaldo/Tostao: Ruggeri is a fine defender and a personal favourite having drafted him many times, but this isn’t an assignment he’ll enjoy. Ronaldo’s blistering pace and skill, not to mention his dizzying interplay with Tostao, will pose precisely the sort of problems he disliked most. In his element in a bruising personal duel with a Batistuta-style centre forward, he’s a great upgrade in general, but less so for this match.

Overall, Enigma and Joga have drafted a truly excellent team, that will pose us all sorts of difficulties. We feel, however, that this reinforcement round has been kinder to us than them, and that our attack, both stylistically and in terms of sheer quality, should win us the match here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM ENIGMA/JOGA

Tactics and formation:
4-2-3-1 - rather modern incarnation - 4 man backline - Zito DM, Vidal in box to box role, Zizinho attacking midfielder, Erico as our complete striker and Garrincha/Sosa as wide forwards.
- Normal defensive line
- Fast tempo, direct passing
- Zanetti/Branco in balanced roles - Branco slightly more attacking, Zanetti providing more defensive cover for Garrincha to do his thing.

Team Profiles:

GK: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz - one of the best keepers in the draft. Most would rank him somewhere in between Carizzo and Fillol for the top 3 spots in his position. At club level he won it all - Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, 3 times Uruguayan Championship and 1 time Brazilian Championship, he also is the best GK in Uruguay history winning the 1970 FIFA world cup award as a best keeper of the tournament and 1 Copa America to his name, whilst still holding the clean sheet record in the Uruguayan league. Great at organizing the defence, top reflexes and huge leap he was one of the most all rounded keepers of all time.

DL: Branco - Pretty much has the characteristics of every top Brazil full back over the years - fast, can carry the ball well, excellent technique and cross in the box and a great left peg that is always dangerous on set pieces. He's also solid defensively and vividly known for his job on one of the trickiest and fastest forwards - Overmars in the 94 WC quarter finals - where he marked him off the game, all whilst scoring a stunning FK winner on the other end of the pitch. He was first choice left back for Brazil in the late 80's, early 90's gaining 72 caps and winning 1 Copa America and the 94 WC. Notably he also was Brazil's top goal scorer on the road of a runner up finish in 1991 Copa America and integral part to the 1989 Copa side where Brazil won the title conceding just one goal in 7 games.

DR: Javier Zanetti - along with Djalma Santos, Cafu and Carlos Alberto - he's one of the best in the history of his position. Industrious, great technique and rock solid defensively especially in his later years. He's the perfect foil for Garrincha and gives him the ideal tactical platform and freedom in this game.

DC: Diego Godin - The standout defender of the last 5-6 years, he's the bedrock of Atletico's rearguard and had a significant part in breaking the Barca/Real duopoly in recent years, winning the La Liga after a great match against one of the most renowned sides in history. 2 CL finals on top of that coming against a wide range of class attackers such as Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez who rank pretty high in history themselves. On top of his accomplishments Godin is a top notch defensive leader, equally adept in the air and on the deck.

DC: Oscar Ruggeri - A top tier stopper, the fiery Oscar Ruggeri was a truly colossal figure at the back with his impeccable game aerially and his indomitable physical game on the deck. Goes without saying that he wasn't 'just your average stopper' and was actually a decent player on the ball, and a match-winner in his own right - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year (on account of his Copa America heroics in 1991) and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot, whilst being the highest rated player of la liga in 1988 by Don Balón, playing for minnows Logroñés. Ruggeri will exhibit his same trademark game here which he did in the 1986 victorious WC campaign, where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final.

DM: Zito - one of the most accomplished players in the game. Winner of 2 WC titles, close to 20 titles in Brazil with Santos, 2 Copa Libertadores and 2 International cups, he is part of those 2 Brazil teams in 1958 and 1962(with Garrincha the other member of out team). Zito was one man engine in that team, playing alongside Didi, setting the stage for him and mopping around having the lion's share of the defensive work in that midfield. He's also very good technically, especially in his short passing game and could retain possession very well and participate in the build up. Man for the occasion as well - scored one of his three goals in the 1962 final against Czechoslovakia.

MC: Arturo Vidal - A complete midfielder who at his peak was capable of bossing any game. Known for his fierce tackling and physical style he adds more steel to our midfield, playing his favorite box to box role. At his peak he led his team goalscoring and assist charts in 12/13 season showing both his passing ability and composure in front of the goal. Successful at every level he led his national team to 2 Copa America victories, with a notable game against Argentina in the 2015 Copa final, winning the MOTM accolade.

LWF: Ruben Sosa - Complete attacker that could play anywhere up front he was the star of the Copa America 1989 (Player of the Tournament) where he played on the left in a really exciting Uruguayan team with Francescoli and Paz. Best remembered for his solo goal in the game against Argentina(scored the opener before that as well). He was a force to be reckoned with in the Serie A, when it was at its heyday, and boasted a fantastic tally of 44 goals in 76 games for Inter at his peak.

Best described:

He was, in fact, one of the swiftest sprinters with sudden outbursts of speed that left his markers dumbfounded. How such a stiff and top-heavy person could transform into such an act of balanced grace still remains a mystery. He was forever ready to skim over a cushion of air. Sosa is best remembered for his image of speeding down the left wing, with his trunk slightly forward, his head erect, like a trotter racing down the homestretch.

Sosa will be taking defenders on his favorite left flank, and also be one of our goal scoring threats along with Kempes, Morena and Garrincha. An excellent finisher himself he will provide even more to our game in the attacking third.
Full profile worth a read

RWF: Garrincha - a true phenomenon and widely regarded as the best dribbler in history. He was the driving force behind Brazil's triumph at the 1962 WC title where he won the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot. If Maradona elevated his team to the 1986 triumph so too did Garrincha after he took on the mantle of Seleção's talisman with Pele injured early on. Speed, explosiveness, trickery, incisiveness - he was a freak of nature and one of the top tier players of all time.

AM: Zizinho - Pele's childhood hero takes Kempes place for this game. Regarded as one of the top attacking players in Brazil's history he was pretty much a complete player. Excellent dribbler of the ball combined with vision and passing ability, who was no stranger to putting in a defensive shift in as well. Winner of the 1949 Copa and 1952 Pan American games, and also awarded the best player of the 1950 WC tournament.

FC: Arsenio Erico - Considered the best Paraguayan player of all time is a complete striker - fast, great header of the ball and one of the best finishers in the game - holding the Argentinian league top scorer record. Erico was an inspiration to Argentine player Alfredo Di Stéfano , who considered him one of the greatest players ever. Other figures like Brazilian striker Leônidas da Silva and Paraguayan Delfín Benítez Cáceres also consider Erico as one of the best players in history. Argentine striker Francisco Varallo remembers Erico as a "phenomenon " that would excel in scoring headers due to his high jumps.

Why we will win:

1. Impeccable defence - with the inclusion of Ruggeri we have one of the best defences in the draft, marshaled by Diego Godin, one of the best stoppers in the game in Ruggeri and Zanetti in a balanced role containing Joya. Zito will be shielding in front of the CB pair following the steps of either Tostao or Bochini.
2. Negating the opposition strengths -Skizzo and Pat have the best striker in the pool and probably in the game, but our defensive and central core is best suited to minimize his impact on the pitch. We know Ronaldo can't be marked out of the game, but with Ruggeri and Godin we have 2 excellent center backs suited to play against the very best forward in the game. Joya will come against one of the best and defensive solid right backs in the draft - Zanetti, while Zito and with the help of Vidal defensively will track down Bochini/Tostao and Hormazabal/Bertoni.
3. Advantage in midfield - with Vidal partnering Zito and Zizinho in front of them we have a solid and physical core, that doesn't lack the skill or passing ability to create opportunities for our wingers and main striker - Erico. With a dynamic midfield line and 2 complete midfielders in Zizinho and Vidal we will dominate that area and take control of the game.
4. Garrincha impact - Garrincha most likely will be up against Junior - who is more of a tucked in LB or Pavoni, and should have a good game here, providing service for Erico or finishing moves himself.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Skizzo @Pat_Mustard @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito

Game on, gentlemen - best of luck to both teams.

 

[Physiocrat]

Excellent tactical setup @Pat_Mustard

It's probably the best way to counter Enigma's side. Not sure which way I'll vote yet though

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Excellent tactical setup @Pat_Mustard

It's probably the best way to counter Enigma's side. Not sure which way I'll vote yet though

Thanks mate. That reinforcement round was very kind to us, with Andrade being a big step up from Pablo Forlan at right back, and so many fine attackers left to choose from when our second pick came around.

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito I'm going to vote for myself now if one of you two wants to do the same. And thanks for setting things up @Chesterlestreet

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks mate. That reinforcement round was very kind to us, with Andrade being a big step up from Pablo Forlan at right back, and so many fine attackers left to choose from when our second pick came around.

@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito I'm going to vote for myself now if one of you two wants to do the same. And thanks for setting things up @Chesterlestreet

We did the same mate, you and Skizzo can go ahead. Good luck to you both!

and also thanks @Chesterlestreet for setting it up.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

A quote from Tostao got lost from my OP. Nothing earth-shatteringly profound but:

Until João Saldanha took over. He called me over and said, “What’s the problem with you playing?” And I said, “I don’t have a problem, apart from the fact that every coach seems to think of me as Pelé’s reserve.” And he said, “From now on that’s over. You’re the first name on the team- sheet, ahead of Pelé” — I’m sure he was joking — “and another thing; you can play badly, and it’s no problem. You’re staying in the team. It’s you and Pelé up front. Take it in turns, with one of you staying up and the other dropping. Sort it out between yourselves.” And it worked. In the World Cup qualifiers in 1969 I was top scorer.

We feel that he completes our attack, and he's a perfect foil for Ronaldo - comfortable either dropping off or filling the main striker role when Ronaldo drops deeper, a superbly gifted link up player, and a proven record of tailoring his game towards getting the best out of a more celebrated partner.

We did the same mate, you and Skizzo can go ahead. Good luck to you both!

and also thanks @Chesterlestreet for setting it up.

Cheers mate! Good luck to you and Joga also.

 

[Enigma_87]

To kick it off. I didn't expect that line up personally from Skizzo/Pat as either Hormazabal or Bertoni would provide a natural width on the right.

As it is Joya is the only one who could provide width in that set up and he is best on the left or centrally, having started his career as a CF and then most notably played on the left. He can of course play on the right and switch flanks during the game, but it raises the question on how effective he will be.

On the left side Tostao would drop in but he is a central player either played as a CF or AM, of course he will interchange with Ronaldo and is a good foil for him, but I don't think he can stretch our defense, which is good for us as either Zanetti would pick him up tucking in or Zito if he drops centrally.

On that left flank Pavoni would overlap and bring some width to S/P but then again he's isolated against Garrincha, which set's the stage for him to decide the game.

Junior can of course help, but with a midfield partners of Rattin and Bochini (who I don't expect to put a shift in defensively) will have a lot to do himself as he's against Vidal and Zizinho.

With this set up we would probably dominate that midfield, and Vidal especially at his peak would stamp his authority and boss the game.

We have switched Zito on the LDM this game so he will dovetail nicely to Joya's threat and having Ruggeri, Godin, Zanetti picking up Tostao/Ronaldo, while Vidal can pick up Bochini and also help in defence.

I think given this set up we have the players to minimize the more central threat S/P are posing and reduce the space in which they could operate.

 

[Enigma_87]

Great compilation of Vidal showing how complete of midfielder he was at his peak. He could pass, switch flanks, stuck in defensively, score important goals and tirelessly run 90 minutes through the whole pitch.

Him and Zizinho against Rattin and Junior(who also has to provide support on the left in somewhat dual role) can provide the service for Erico, carve through S/P midfield and with their dynamic game hassle the opponent giving them less time on the ball and less space to operate within.

 

[Enigma_87]

On Joya - I really rate him and have mentioned it in the last game Skizzo/Pat won in the quarters and one of the best left wingers in the pool. Going by the instruction he's having in the game he'll play on either side and be picked up first by Zanetti/Branco. Now Zanetti needs no introduction as he's one of the most solid full backs in the game, but a little more info on Branco.

IMO Branco is not ill suited to that role, as he had a great game in the 94 WC against similar in his game Overmars - fast, explosive and tricky winger.

On defense, Branco marked Marc Overmars out of the game, sticking to the forward like Dutch Boy paint on plywood.

At that time he was a tad slower as well - in his 30's while compared to his peak game in the late 80's 90's where he was part of 2 successful Brazil sides in the Copa, winning one and finishing 2nd in the other. I've mentioned in the OP as well, but he was part of the Copa winning side that conceded just one goal in 7 games.

Not making it sound he'll completely close and mark Joya out of the game, but he has the qualities to minimize that risk and also he's a good fit for a winger of that type, like he did against Overmars and also other fast and tricky wingers in the past (one of who is in our side - Sosa).

A funny note, he's the second player that has a non standard frame in our team:

The vertebrae in Branco's back, in fact, have eroded to the point that his left leg is slightly shorter than his right.

which was noted during that 94 WC.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I really don't get Skizzo/Pat's upgrades at all.

There was lots of information on how Victor was the best LB in the draft to control Garrincha and he's on the opposite flank here.
And Tostao on left wing? Why not Neymar or Pedernera from my team alone who I think would have been better fit. Frankly I see no reason to move the best LW of this draft from his best position. Jair or Moreno were available anyway.

I'm not really a fan of his upgrades and would like to hear more from him before voting against him anyway. (Just kidding)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And @Enigma_87 Any reason you chose Vidal over Varela?

 

[Enigma_87]

And @Enigma_87 Any reason you chose Vidal over Varela?

We can't pick Varela as you guys picked it second. Although with Zito in there if we had Varela he would most likely play alongside Vidal as well. Vidal was one we laid our eyes on from the start and since the first reinforcement round, when Tuppet picked him first. He's one of the best box to box midfielders in the pool, and provides our team with extra cover in defence along with his all action attributes.

IMO he's a very good upgrade, especially since Veron didn't get that much joy as we expected. Veron has better playmaking ability and vision than Vidal, but the latter gives us more in the other departments, while at the same time not taking away that much in terms of distribution in our team.

Vidal, Zizinho, Zito give us flexible and dynamic midfield that can press the opponent but also give us a lot of steel in the back, given that we expected more central approach when S/P picked Tostao.

 

[harms]

That's very tough.

I think that Zito's skillset isn't ideally suited to deal with Tostao/Bochini as he was more about positioning and reading of the game, while they both were known for their ball-control and dribbling in tight spaces, Tostao especially. The same can be said about Ruggeri - while Godin is a pretty much perfect all-rounder, Ruggeri is more of a battling ram and, despite his unquestionable level, he won't be very comfortable dealing with Skizzo's creative trio.

On the other hand, while having Junior here to support Pavoni is a nice touch, the lack of the left winger here will left them both against Garrincha and Zanetti. While I don't think that Garrincha will bring out the best of Zanetti, he still can contribute to the attack - plus Skizzo has the weakest (by my book, maybe some won't agree with me) center back on the pitch to cover for him.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Two great sides. Garrincha sort of jumps off the page -- wouldn't vote for a team based on a single player, but was wondering if Garrincha should have been blocked -- he's up there with the likes of Maradona and Pele imo.

 

[Enigma_87]

Two great sides. Garrincha sort of jumps off the page -- wouldn't vote for a team based on a single player, but was wondering if Garrincha should have been blocked -- he's up there with the likes of Maradona and Pele imo.

I think we have a lot of positives in this game bar Garrincha. Erico IMO can also step up against Pereira and Silva, while on the other hand we managed to significantly improve our defence with Ruggeri having 2 great pure defenders to combat that central threat.

Apart from that our midfield is where I think we have advantage in this game, with 2 brilliant all rounders in Vidal and Zizinho, anchored by Zito.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Two great sides. Garrincha sort of jumps off the page -- wouldn't vote for a team based on a single player, but was wondering if Garrincha should have been blocked -- he's up there with the likes of Maradona and Pele imo.

it got discussed in the last game, few people said " well where does it end". For me, it ends with ronaldo and garrincha both being blocked and there not really being anyone after that who brings such an advantage to the table.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

it got discussed in the last game, few people said " well where does it end". For me, it ends with ronaldo and garrincha both being blocked and there not really being anyone after that who brings such an advantage to the table.

I'd agree with that.

I think we have a lot of positives in this game bar Garrincha. Erico IMO can also step up against Pereira and Silva, while on the other hand we managed to significantly improve our defence with Ruggeri having 2 great pure defenders to combat that central threat.

Apart from that our midfield is where I think we have advantage in this game, with 2 brilliant all rounders in Vidal and Zizinho, anchored by Zito.

Yeah, I like your team overall. Zito, Vidal and Zizinho look great in there. Will take my time before voting though.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'd agree with that.

Yeah, I like your team overall. Zito, Vidal and Zizinho look great in there. Will take my time before voting though.

Sure, mate. Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's very tough.

I think that Zito's skillset isn't ideally suited to deal with Tostao/Bochini as he was more about positioning and reading of the game, while they both were known for their ball-control and dribbling in tight spaces, Tostao especially. The same can be said about Ruggeri - while Godin is a pretty much perfect all-rounder, Ruggeri is more of a battling ram and, despite his unquestionable level, he won't be very comfortable dealing with Skizzo's creative trio.

On the other hand, while having Junior here to support Pavoni is a nice touch, the lack of the left winger here will left them both against Garrincha and Zanetti. While I don't think that Garrincha will bring out the best of Zanetti, he still can contribute to the attack - plus Skizzo has the weakest (by my book, maybe some won't agree with me) center back on the pitch to cover for him.

I think Vidal can add a lot to that concern in the middle of the pitch and covering for Tostao/Bochini when they drop deep. Sure S/P have a lot of technically brilliant players, but we can make reduce the space and slow them down and take the ball away from them. Ruggeri dovetails nicely with Godin and also a brilliant pure defender who can't of course mark Ronaldo out of the game but make life tougher for him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Quote added, @Pat_Mustard.

As for Garrincha and Ronaldo (again), I agree. But it's almost pure hindsight for my money. I don't recall any huge clamour for them being blocked when it was originally discussed - sure, they were brought up explicitly (the Fat Boy more than Garrincha - interestingly, because it seems to be the latter who has been the main "problem", what with people deciding that he's actually in the Di Stefano bracket to begin with) but there was no great outrage. If a majority of the managers (or the neutrals) had bothered to make a big deal out of it, they would have been blocked - it's as simple as that.

It's also a matter of the pair of them ending up in well drafted teams managed by very experienced drafters - which is a matter of sheer coincidence.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

On the other hand, while having Junior here to support Pavoni is a nice touch,

But the lack of a classic left winger would hurt them more. Joya would have given them width and space for Junior to move up and create, far less so with Tostao already in that space imo.

 

[Gio]

That's very tough.

I think that Zito's skillset isn't ideally suited to deal with Tostao/Bochini as he was more about positioning and reading of the game, while they both were known for their ball-control and dribbling in tight spaces, Tostao especially. The same can be said about Ruggeri - while Godin is a pretty much perfect all-rounder, Ruggeri is more of a battling ram and, despite his unquestionable level, he won't be very comfortable dealing with Skizzo's creative trio.

Ruggeri squaring up to Ronaldo here:

Still a better hair-do for Ronaldo than the landing strip he sported in 2002.

 

[antohan]

To kick it off. I didn't expect that line up personally from Skizzo/Pat as either Hormazabal or Bertoni would provide a natural width on the right.

As it is Joya is the only one who could provide width in that set up and he is best on the left or centrally, having started his career as a CF and then most notably played on the left. He can of course play on the right and switch flanks during the game, but it raises the question on how effective he will be.

There simply isn't a question to answer there IMO.

On the left side Tostao would drop in but he is a central player either played as a CF or AM, of course he will interchange with Ronaldo and is a good foil for him, but I don't think he can stretch our defense, which is good for us as either Zanetti would pick him up tucking in or Zito if he drops centrally.

Tostao is absolutely fine. If anything, it has somewhat diluted the instant hard on that was Bochini-Ronaldo.

I really don't get Skizzo/Pat's upgrades at all.

There was lots of information on how Victor was the best LB in the draft to control Garrincha and he's on the opposite flank here.
And Tostao on left wing? Why not Neymar or Pedernera from my team alone who I think would have been better fit. Frankly I see no reason to move the best LW of this draft from his best position. Jair or Moreno were available anyway.

I'm not really a fan of his upgrades and would like to hear more from him before voting against him anyway. (Just kidding)

I do actually, and think it's the best team they could put out there considering the oppo's strengths.

1) Joya on the left vs. Zanetti or right vs. Branco. Obvious choice is obvious. Jair isn't an improvement and Moreno doesn't offer the same width.

2) Tostao playing left-to-centre is very much the Tostao I know. Pedernera wasn't needed (Bochini is already doing his job) and Neymar would be a great fanboi pick which may even raise less questions on width, but I like the look of Tostao-Ronaldo.

One thing being clearly overlooked here is how this setup also takes advantage of Dario Pereyra having also played on the left and as a halfback. The way I see it, Pavoni can go on one of his powerful runs and leave a nicely balanced back three of Pereyra - Thiago Silva - Andrade. No worries on the space left behind as one of Junior or Pereyra can pick up Garrincha depending on how deep or forward he positions himself for a counter.

I actually found it unfortunate that SkizzoPat had Forlán on the right as his natural game is going forward and a back three of Pavoni-Pereyra-Thiago made no sense. Or when Junior was on the left and supposedly pushing up to midfield to playmake that left Pereyra-Silva-Forlan, which doesn't sit well with me either.

All in all, the more defensively robust setup that contemplates Garrincha (and Sosa, who would have murdered Forlán) while offering width on either flank is exactly the one we are seeing on that teamsheet.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

No worries on the space left behind as one of Junior or Pereyra can pick up Garrincha depending on how deep or forward he positions himself for a counter.

My reluctance in buying Pat/Skizzo's tactic here relates to a theme I believe you yourself brought up regarding players like Schuster and Scholes. Junior is similar. When I see Skizzo/Pat say they are using Torino era Junior in midfield, that is 31+ year old Junior. At the very least that version of Junior has lost some pace and agility from 20s version of Junior. In this case, I don't really see 31+ year old Junior picking up Garrincha nearly as easily as 27 year old Junior could. I feel a bit like both versions of Junior are being used here. where its being assumed Junior has both the experience and guile he did at 34 but the pace, agility and energy he had at 26.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Without getting into specifics or individual players, I like what looks like Patzzo's basic rationale here: Field an allrounder (an excellent allrounder) to deal with Garrincha as best he can – with Junior supporting him in that task – and leave it at that.

The other route – using Andrade on the left just because he's arguably the best available anti-Garrincha pill in the pool if you instruct him to play as a de facto marker – makes less sense: It means focusing unduly on Garrincha at the expense of overall balance. You could even go as far as to say that the more of a GOAT you perceive him as, the less sense it makes to sacrifice balance (and, ultimately, attacking prowess) to feck him up as much as possible: The latter is only a viable option if it actually wins you the match – and that doesn't seem very likely. If we treat Garrincha as being in God mode, most people won't buy Andrade shutting him up anyway – it will be an exercise in futility to a large extent.

 

[harms]

Re: blocking of Garrincha
If you block Garrincha, you have to block Ronaldo. Then Zico appears, who was as good as those two if not better; then Ronaldinho, who was simply unplayable at his peak, and it was genuinely Maradona/Pele peak level, although his peak was too short. Where does it end? Maybe we should block Passarella as well then? Etc. And then the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera - they won't give you that much votes because of their age, but they were also the best players in the world for some years.

There are the big South American quartet, who, along with Cruyff and Beckenbauer make most people's top 6 ever. They should be blocked - and no one else.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Without getting into specifics or individual players, I like what looks like Patzzo's basic rationale here: Field an allrounder (an excellent allrounder) to deal with Garrincha as best he can – with Junior supporting him in that task – and leave it at that.
.

Like I posted my skepticism regarding this tactic is I think in drafts "peak" is traditionally considered 3 years yes? In that case Pat/Skizzo can't have it both ways with Junior. You can't have the experienced midfield conductor but also the pace, agility and energy of younger Junior the full back.

I believe this tactic depends on Junior having both qualities he had at 25 and 35 which seems to go against the way "peak" is presented from what I have read?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I really don't get Skizzo/Pat's upgrades at all.

There was lots of information on how Victor was the best LB in the draft to control Garrincha and he's on the opposite flank here.
And Tostao on left wing? Why not Neymar or Pedernera from my team alone who I think would have been better fit. Frankly I see no reason to move the best LW of this draft from his best position. Jair or Moreno were available anyway.

I'm not really a fan of his upgrades and would like to hear more from him before voting against him anyway. (Just kidding)

On Victor Andrade, as far as I can tell he spent the vast majority of his entire career on the right side, so as far as I'm concerned we're fielding him in his best position. I watched a fair bit of this game before picking him and he was majestic on the right flank, so composed both defensively and in possession, and a cut above everyone athletically.


Also, Pablo Forlan simply had to replaced. I'm far more confident in Pavoni than I was in Forlan. I knew Andrade on Garrincha would be the voter friendly option, but it would have meant a sub-par right back being fielded or else a formation change and a makeshift being played as a right wing back. I'm confident that the Pavoni/Junior tactic can stop Garrincha going on a complete rampage, not that they'll shut him down entirely of course.

Tostao isn't playing as a left winger but as a second striker. I make no bones about our gameplan being centrally orientated as we've got the personnel in Bochini, Ronaldo and Tostao to slice through teams with incisive passing, one twos and dribbling. That said, working both channels was a big part of Tostao's game, and in any case one of his main briefs is alternating with Ronaldo as the centre forward whilst Ronaldo satisfies his wanderlust and creates havoc from deeper and wider areas. And lest anyone has forgotten what he can do from those areas:

Spoiler: Ronaldo

Spoiler: Ronaldo2

Spoiler: Ronaldo3

I'll post a bit more about the basic idea of the winger roaming from wing to wing, but suffice to say @Skizzo gave me fair warning that the asymetrical idea would cost us, but my heart was set on it regardless of the outcome.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Re: blocking of Garrincha
If you block Garrincha, you have to block Ronaldo. Then Zico appears, who was as good as those two if not better; then Ronaldinho, who was simply unplayable at his peak, and it was genuinely Maradona/Pele peak level, although his peak was too short. Where does it end? Maybe we should block Passarella as well then? Etc. And then the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera - they won't give you that much votes because of their age, but they were also the best players in the world for some years.

There are the big South American quartet, who, along with Cruyff and Beckenbauer make most people's top 6 ever. They should be blocked - and no one else.

In hindsight I don't think Figeuroa should have been blocked.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Re: blocking of Garrincha
If you block Garrincha, you have to block Ronaldo. Then Zico appears, who was as good as those two if not better; then Ronaldinho, who was simply unplayable at his peak, and it was genuinely Maradona/Pele peak level, although his peak was too short. Where does it end? Maybe we should block Passarella as well then? Etc. And then the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera - they won't give you that much votes because of their age, but they were also the best players in the world for some years.

There are the big South American quartet, who, along with Cruyff and Beckenbauer make most people's top 6 ever. They should be blocked - and no one else.

Agreed.

 

[harms]

In hindsight I don't think Figeuroa should have been blocked.

I don't know. He would've been a superhero presence at the back capable, single-handedly nullifying most of the attackers (maybe bar Ro-Ro). But you can also argue that he would decide a game like Garrincha or Ronaldo did in this draft.

I wasn't a fan of the idea of blocking him, but I see the reasoning - as a pure defender he is clearly ahead of the next tier.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Like I posted my skepticism regarding this tactic is I think in drafts "peak" is traditionally considered 3 years yes? In that case Pat/Skizzo can't have it both ways with Junior. You can't have the experienced midfield conductor but also the pace, agility and energy of younger Junior the full back.

I believe this tactic depends on Junior having both qualities he had at 25 and 35 which seems to go against the way "peak" is presented from what I have read?

I believe that's a question of degrees, if you will: The way I read it, he functions as a more generic sort of backup for Pavoni. He doesn't have to be at peak level physically in order to do that: He's basically like any other DM who is comfortable defending out wide. I don't read the combo (him and Pavoni) as an attempt at neutralizing Garrincha: It's a more realistic approach, with Junior simply chipping in with some extra defensive nous (and experience when it comes to defending out wide). The idea being to set up soundly enough without taking extreme measures against Garrincha.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

There simply isn't a question to answer there IMO.



Tostao is absolutely fine. If anything, it has somewhat diluted the instant hard on that was Bochini-Ronaldo.



I do actually, and think it's the best team they could put out there considering the oppo's strengths.

1) Joya on the left vs. Zanetti or right vs. Branco. Obvious choice is obvious. Jair isn't an improvement and Moreno doesn't offer the same width.

2) Tostao playing left-to-centre is very much the Tostao I know. Pedernera wasn't needed (Bochini is already doing his job) and Neymar would be a great fanboi pick which may even raise less questions on width, but I like the look of Tostao-Ronaldo.

One thing being clearly overlooked here is how this setup also takes advantage of Dario Pereyra having also played on the left and as a halfback. The way I see it, Pavoni can go on one of his powerful runs and leave a nicely balanced back three of Pereyra - Thiago Silva - Andrade. No worries on the space left behind as one of Junior or Pereyra can pick up Garrincha depending on how deep or forward he positions himself for a counter.

I actually found it unfortunate that SkizzoPat had Forlán on the right as his natural game is going forward and a back three of Pavoni-Pereyra-Thiago made no sense. Or when Junior was on the left and supposedly pushing up to midfield to playmake that left Pereyra-Silva-Forlan, which doesn't sit well with me either.

All in all, the more defensively robust setup that contemplates Garrincha (and Sosa, who would have murdered Forlán) while offering width on either flank is exactly the one we are seeing on that teamsheet.

Cheers Anto. I was always going with this formation no matter about the result, but I'm glad its getting some appreciation. I had a fair idea that the asymetrical formation would go over like a fart in a spacesuit as they seem to have completely went out of style in drafts these days, but I was surprised that Joya on the right wing was getting such criticism, as it seems so entirely reasonable to me.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Re: blocking of Garrincha
If you block Garrincha, you have to block Ronaldo. Then Zico appears, who was as good as those two if not better; then Ronaldinho, who was simply unplayable at his peak, and it was genuinely Maradona/Pele peak level, although his peak was too short. Where does it end? Maybe we should block Passarella as well then? Etc. And then the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera - they won't give you that much votes because of their age, but they were also the best players in the world for some years.

There are the big South American quartet, who, along with Cruyff and Beckenbauer make most people's top 6 ever. They should be blocked - and no one else.

On a general consensus scale , Zico and Ronaldinho won't win you as much as Ronaldo and Garrincha, as both are widely considered the best in their respective positions. When you think best number 9 ever , you'd be hard pushed to not see R9 in most people's top 3, and as far as right winger goes , I don't think it's any stretch to say that Garrincha is simply number 1. Ronaldinho and Zico are obviously legends , but other than those who put r10 as their best ever simply because of the way he played , there really isn't that big a gap between them and other number 10s.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck @Skizzo @Pat_Mustard

Juan Joya will provide the width in our attack as a roving winger. Naturally right-footed, he’s positioned on the right wing on the teamsheet. With a defensively-orientated right back in Andrade behind him and a vulnerable target in Branco, we expect that he’ll spend a lot of time on that flank, but he has the freedom to switch wings at will,

Joya on the left vs. Zanetti or right vs. Branco. Obvious choice is obvious. Jair isn't an improvement and Moreno doesn't offer the same width.

As far as I know Joya mostly played as the left wing forward for Penarol and even up front at times. In the games that I've watched of him, he plays as the left sided forward with ample freedom to cut in, with Abbadie on the right in a disciplined role. On the counter he did form a threatening mobile duo of sorts with Spencer, granted. However, I don't think he's the type to play a Conti like role swapping flanks and taking on the LB. Doesn't seem to be the best use of him imo, esp since he was a proper goalscoring left wing forward, who was capable of stretching play on the left or in central areas. With Tostao and Bochini in central roles, two fairly defensive FBs (not that they were limited by any means and Pavoni was a decent overlapper whilst Andrade a good supporting FB), it does lead me to question whether Joya's best utilized here. Thought he'd have been better on the left on his natural position with Bertoni on the right. Would love to be corrected though.

And @Enigma_87 Any reason you chose Vidal over Varela?

Like Enigma said Varela is blocked. We went for Vidal, for a few reasons. Firstly he is amongst the best B2b midfielders in this pool and he fitted in like a glove in between Zizinho and Zito. With Veron, we had a one of the better playmaking CMs in the draft alongside Didi, Gerson, Valderrama etc and there clearly was a dearth in quality in that position imo. However, this was a SA pool flooded with heavy-duty CMs and some real tricky #10s, and Veron might have found it tough against such midfields. We did acknowledge that risk and thus we had one of the best DMs in the draft in Zito (arguably the best DM after Monti, Varela) and a hardworking and tactically astute AM/SS in Kempes and then Zizinho. Even then we were a tad unlucky to come up against some solid central set ups (featuring Zizinho, Pedernera, Rocha, Morena etc). I didn't mind that myself but it did seem as though his playmaking game did go under the radar a wee bit, which was a shame.

And looking at the other sides remaining in the draft, we just knew that Vidal would be the best choice to upgrade our midfield with his dynamism, ball winning ability and classic B2b game, esp with a top notch playmaker in Zizinho in the #10 spot. Look at this game again for example, with Skizzo/Pat's fairly central set up with Junior-Bochini-Tostao, Vidal would be invaluable here.

I think that Zito's skillset isn't ideally suited to deal with Tostao/Bochini as he was more about positioning and reading of the game, while they both were known for their ball-control and dribbling in tight spaces, Tostao especially. The same can be said about Ruggeri - while Godin is a pretty much perfect all-rounder, Ruggeri is more of a battling ram and, despite his unquestionable level, he won't be very comfortable dealing with Skizzo's creative trio.

Whilst I don't fully agree with your take on Zito, I can see where you are coming from as he was a tactically astute player who relied on his defensive intelligence but he could definitely get stuck in when needed. I don't think the best ball winning midfielder on the pitch should be neglected though. In Vidal we have a proper all action B2B midfielder who would definitely be a resolute presence in the engine room. Don't need to say a lot about Vidal on redcafe and it does say something that he was considered by quite a few to be the most apt modern remake for Matthäus in the last draft. With Zito and Vidal (and Zizinho capable of putting a shift in unlike Bochini) I do believe that we can do a good job of squaring up against Skizzo/Pat's midfield and his fairly central set up.

But the lack of a classic left winger would hurt them more. Joya would have given them width and space for Junior to move up and create, far less so with Tostao already in that space imo.

Agreed

Re: blocking of Garrincha
If you block Garrincha, you have to block Ronaldo. Then Zico appears, who was as good as those two if not better; then Ronaldinho, who was simply unplayable at his peak, and it was genuinely Maradona/Pele peak level, although his peak was too short. Where does it end? Maybe we should block Passarella as well then? Etc. And then the likes of Zizinho and Pedernera - they won't give you that much votes because of their age, but they were also the best players in the world for some years.

There are the big South American quartet, who, along with Cruyff and Beckenbauer make most people's top 6 ever. They should be blocked - and no one else.

Don't think he should have been blocked too. It's quite simple the dearth of quality Lbs which proved to be the problem with a fair few quality ones being blocked being the first 2 picks.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Like I posted my skepticism regarding this tactic is I think in drafts "peak" is traditionally considered 3 years yes? In that case Pat/Skizzo can't have it both ways with Junior. You can't have the experienced midfield conductor but also the pace, agility and energy of younger Junior the full back.

I believe this tactic depends on Junior having both qualities he had at 25 and 35 which seems to go against the way "peak" is presented from what I have read?

Chester nails it really:

I believe that's a question of degrees, if you will: The way I read it, he functions as a more generic sort of backup for Pavoni. He doesn't have to be at peak level physically in order to do that: He's basically like any other DM who is comfortable defending out wide. I don't read the combo (him and Pavoni) as an attempt at neutralizing Garrincha: It's a more realistic approach, with Junior simply chipping in with some extra defensive nous (and experience when it comes to defending out wide). The idea being to set up soundly enough without taking extreme measures against Garrincha.

This isn't a full-time doubling up on Garrincha, just Junior using his experience there to help defend that zone when necessary. If I was to specify then I'd say we're using 1984-86 Junior, when he was 30-32 years old. He wasn't that far removed from his athletic prime then, and certainly looked sprightly enough to me from what I've watched of Brazil in WC '86 at the end of that period.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Chester nails it really:

This isn't a full-time doubling up on Garrincha, just Junior using his experience there to help defend that zone when necessary. If I was to specify then I'd say we're using 1984-86 Junior, when he was 30-32 years old. He wasn't that far removed from his athletic prime then, and certainly looked sprightly enough to me from what I've watched of Brazil in WC '86 at the end of that period.

Can you give me a little more info on Pavoni and why you believe he is up for this task?

Also, I am bit surprised that no one has brought up Garrincha's weaknesses because he does have some that can be exploited. So far I haven't seen anyone else bring them up. Namely his tendency to play solo and completely ignore any manager instructions. Also Garrincha was extremely uncompetitive. I have a quote somewhere where after a match Garrincha didn't even know if it was a tournament or a friendly!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The reasoning behind the blocks is as follows (just as a final word on that thing):

Pelé, Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi are GOATs with two basic traits which make them block worthy: 1) They're extremly influential on the pitch. Fielding one of them makes it significantly easier to build an overall excellent XI. 2) They're basically devoid of any weaknesses an opponent can target - unless the manager positively plays 'em out of position, they will be unquestionable.

Neither Ronaldo nor Garrincha is in that category. The former isn't influential to the same degree, and the latter does have weaknesses an opponent can highlight.

Figueroa was blocked for the obvious reason that he's in a tier of his own. There is no discussion to be had regarding who the best defender in the pool is - he's head and shoulders above the rest. This isn't my personal opinion, needless to say - it's consensus based on his reception in previous drafts.

 

[harms]

On a general consensus scale , Zico and Ronaldinho won't win you as much as Ronaldo and Garrincha, as both are widely considered the best in their respective positions. When you think best number 9 ever , you'd be hard pushed to not see R9 in most people's top 3, and as far as right winger goes , I don't think it's any stretch to say that Garrincha is simply number 1. Ronaldinho and Zico are obviously legends , but other than those who put r10 as their best ever simply because of the way he played , there really isn't that big a gap between them and other number 10s.

As far as pure n.10 go (excluding free-roaming forwards in Pele, Cruyff and Di Stefano), the top 3 is Maradona, Platini and Zico, and the gap between those three isn't huge. In fact, Maradona was considered the worst out of three for the first half of the decade. Gentile famously said that man-marking Zico was tougher than man-marking Maradona in 1982.

Zico is one of those who often gets compared to Pele, being, like Garrincha, a common hipster choice for the best Brazilian ever. IFFHS have him as a 3rd best Brazilian after Pele and Garrincha

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that many here would put him in the different tier to Ronaldo or Garrincha. And it's manager/regular votes that always decide the game. Especially with him being a more versatile and all-rounded player than Garrincha.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Also, I am bit surprised that no one has brought up Garrincha's weaknesses because he does have some that can be exploited. So far I haven't seen anyone else bring them up. Namely his tendency to play solo and completely ignore any manager instructions.

He definitely had some weaknesses and it would be disingenuous to paint him as the perfect player, despite being the greatest winger ever alongside Best. He was extremely unpredictable and a volatile player, and an individualistic presence. However, the things he brought to the table (his creativity, ability to cause absolute mayhem in entire defensive lines, open up spaces for teammates and also importantly he didn't rely much on, 'great service or support' if you get what I mean) far outstripped his weakness, so to say.

People always say that he is extremely individualistic - which is spot on - but the flipside is that he delivered (being phenomenal in the '58 WC - sparking Brazil into life with the 'greatest three minutes in footballing history', assisting Vava twice in the final; his near single-handed heroics in the '62 WC where he was imperious and won the Golden Ball & Golden Boot; and of course being the star of the great Botafogo side*) and didn't impose much requirements from his teammates on the ball. He just went out there and did his thing, as simple as it sounds . We have built out team to get the best out of him, keeping his weaknesses in mind. Firstly we ensured we got a top notch RB in the pool in Zanetti who can boss his flank and be a solid defensive presence, who can more than compensate for Garrincha occasional over indulgence on the ball and his lack of tracking back. Secondly and most importantly we haven't given him any tactical instructions. In fact we haven't done much talking to him, apart from plying him with cachaça


*

• Best Player of the Brazilian Championship: 1962
• Best Player of the Rio-São Paulo Tournament: 1962
• Best Player of Interstate Club Champions Cup: 1962
• Best player of the Carioca championship: 1957, 1961, 1962