The Americas Draft, SF2 onenil vs Maz/Mar/R

[Chesterlestreet]

NOTE: Voters are encouraged to read the managers' write-ups and arguments before voting. Votes cannot be changed once submitted.

TEAM ONENIL

“I am absolutely enchanted - in all senses of the word - by passion. It is what guides us through the unknown like an experienced commander; angry seas never scare us when we face them with the madness of love” - Doutor Socrates

Starting XI

After a weather delay to the match that saw Leonel Sanchez mysteriously struck by lightning, he will be rested. Alexis Sanchez enters the starting XI. Trained early by Bielsa, Alexis brings the pace, stamina and pressing intelligence I wanted on the left flank without sacrificing any goal scoring ability. His pace adds an additional threat on the left. His ability to win the ball high up the pitch scares defenders and creates more unexpected opportunities. His relentless pressing adds a powerful psychological effect that Eder lacked.

Mentally Alexis epitomizes South American passion and insatiable hunger for victory. Along with Paolo Montero and Ruben Marcos these players add the fire to complement the cool elegance of the Samba boys. A steely will to win. This balances the beautiful grace of the ‘82 Brazilians with toughness. With Montero, Marcos and Alexis added to the Brazilians, cool technique mixes with fiery passion. Gambetta is a talented defender known for his skill on the ball and also a jovial spirit. These capture the dual essences of Americas’ footballing. The passion and will to win complement beautiful and elegant play..

With these final two additions this side approaches my original ideal for this draft. Illustrate the yin and yang of South American futebol. Unpredictable skill epitomized by ‘82 Brazil mixed with indomitable passion and fighting spirit. We will control the center space and limit the opponent’s opportunities to low percentage shots compared to the opportunities we can create.

Match Tactics:


Unbalancing the Center

Through the spine of the team we have technically brilliant and tactically aware players. Domingos, noted for his calm control of the backline, Cerezo’s tactical positioning and passing vision, Marcos’ stamina and ability to hound the opponent’s best player for the entire 90 minutes, Socrates’ reading of the game and knack for popping up in midfield at the essential moments, Zico creating opportunities against even the best defenses. Socrates will begin on the right with Zico more central this match to assist in dominating the midfield. Socrates will harass and intercept at times while also providing confusing runs for Cerezo to connect with. He also frequently popped up on the right flank providing width so this swap with Zico is comfortable for him and works best against this opponent.

Marcos and Cerezo combination reduces the effectiveness of opponent’s playmakers and forces them into more wide areas. Marcos has the engine and the marking experience to harass even the best like Pele. Cerezo covers with calm tactical skill and zonal positioning. This combination is repeated in defense with Montero a hard stopper and Domingos the Divine Master of defensive covering. Alexis adds workrate and additional harassment on defense. Montero is always experienced at covering the flank to prevent Ghiggia causing problems.

We want to limit their play in the center and force them into wide positions to cause crosses. All my partnerships from centre-backs to holding midfielders to offensive midfielders have complementary traits that function perfect together. Tactical discipline mixed with true grit competitors like Montero and Alexis was lacking for Brazil in ‘82. Montero’s grit combined with Domingos calm influence and the intense pressure of a semi-final match should silence Hugo Sanchez the whole match.

Gambetta and Marinho have specific instructions to force their WFs wider. Marinho has a lot of recovery speed and Gambetta is a trickster who cannot easily be bypassed.

Zico

Maybe underappreciated is how he works with teammates to control matches. His goal scoring record is amazing but he was not just a selfish goal scorer. He played within the team. Zico elevates the play of his teammates. Unfortunately assists weren’t always a stat recorded in this era. Zico combined superb assists with epic scoring (52 in 59 games in 1982). He was capable of changing entire games based on his brilliance of assisting teammates as well as scoring himself. Often he would be fouled to try to stop. With this team now including Alexis and Gambetta, Zico has a platform that maximizes his natural talent and skill.This match should bring out his best performance.

"Socrates has exceptional feet and he's everywhere at once. He is unpredictable and extremely skilled in first time passes. I have ever seen anyone better in one touch play" - Zico

 

[Chesterlestreet]

TEAM MAZ/MAR/R

Match Write-Up
Rest of the squad: Mauro Ramos, Jorge Burruchaga, Oscar Mas, Nelinho, Mario Zagallo

• Inspiration: 1982 Italy side - zona mista
• Main approach: sit back; remain organised; give the opponents a false sense of security; punish their mistakes; counter at every opportunity
• Defensive approach: deep; organised; mainly zonal defending
• Attacking approach: break quickly; get the ball to the attacking players in space; utilise the flanks to stretch the opponents

Since we'll be facing a Brazil 1982 remake, we will be going with a setup that counters it perfectly: the Italy 1982 zona mista setup.

My team consists of hardworking, defensively dependable players as well as astute technicians who will make the most of the possession that we will have. onenil's team will be moving around freely, playing their jogo bonito, committing men forward in a carefree manner, and that's where our team will punish them by being resolute at the back, winning all second balls, and giving our flair players the platform to play their natural creative game knowing that they have the security of our defence behind them.

With a more defensively reliable, solid, and versatile player in Sensini playing at right back, Luis Pereira won't have to worry about covering for his right back anymore as he usually would and would focus more on keeping an eye on one of Brazil's attacking players floating around and trying to breach our lines. Gamarra and Sensini are both in their natural roles here in a setup familiar to them, so they should feel comfortable playing their natural defensive game. The same goes for Tito who had to play for a more defensive Penarol side in the 1960's; his battling leadership qualities and defensive awareness will come to the fore to keep our team focused on our main goal: victory. Didi complements this perfectly as he won't be prone to getting dragged around but rather will maintain his position naturally and prevent any one of Zico, Socrates, or Sanchez from getting free space in the middle to pick up the ball. Francescoli himself was a battler as well and will do what he can to unsettle Cerezo and even punish him like he was in 1982.

Marzolini will now have more freedom to go forward, and this should suit him given that he was technically strong and also tended to go forward whenever the left winger would cut inside. He would normally stay back because the left winger/attacking midfielder would drift out to the left wing, but if the space was ever free, he would always get forward to fill it up, so he's certainly not out of his element here. Ghiggia will continue to play his natural right wing role, taking on his man 1-on-1 and twisting/turning them like he always does.

Players and roles:

• GK - Claudio Bravo: keep the ball out of the net and help relieve pressure from the defenders when they are pressed
• RB - Roberto Nestor Sensini - Defensive: stay back and keep the right side solid; watch for Sanchez cutting inside and plug the gaps on the inside right flank.
• RCB - Luis Pereira - Sweeper/Libero: read the game and sweep up any passes that come through; watch for the movement of the attacking players and ensure that they do not breach our line; get on the ball to support the attack if we maintain possession in order to push back onenil's team
• LCB - Carlos Gamarra - Stopper: make sure that nothing gets past him; block all shots, unsettle anyone entering his area with his presence, and make sure that the ball doesn't reach our goal.
• LB - Silvio Marzolini - Balanced (get forward to provide width when needed): take care of our left channel like he naturally would; close down anyone who tries to approach our left side; get forward to provide width on the left side when Sivori cuts inside. Having played in Italy when Catenaccio was starting to come to the fore, he will have a good understanding of his volante role here.
• DM - Nestor Goncalves - Anchor Man: stay back and shield the defence with his work rate and tactical awareness; can also start counters with his accurate passing and long range
• CM - Didi - Regista: dictate the team's pace and tempo; control the game in the midfield when in possession; spring the attacking players through on goal with his vision, accurate passing, and long range
• RW - Alcides Ghiggia - Tornante: provide the width on the right side; send crosses in for Hugo Sanchez and Sivori; cut inside to go through on goal when possible
• AM - Enzo Francescoli - Trequartista: create chances at will; take on the opposition with his dribbling, technique, and flair; trouble the opposition with his vision, skill, and magic
• LW - Omar Sivori - Fantasista: make runs through on goal; support Hugo Sanchez; stretch the opposition defence on the left side; use his flair, magic, and wily tricks to bamboozle the opposition and worry them
• ST - Hugo Sanchez - Goalscorer: go through on goal at every opportunity; get into goalscoring positions to score; try to get to all second balls in the box and pounce on them

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@oneniltothearsenal @mazhar13 @Marty1968 @RedTiger

Good luck to all!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Really like both teams. Feel that Onenil's lack of wide threat means his game will be played mostly in front of Nestor/Didi and that may give MMR a slight edge.

 

[mazhar13]

Nice, onenil's team was close to what I expected. It will be a tight match, but there's nothing that would surprise my team here.

The lack of width is going to cause onenil's team quite a few issues. Even though Socrates would drift around to the wide areas (though not too often as he preferred playing through the middle), he still needed support from his full back in order to be effective there. In a 1-on-1 battle, Socrates doesn't have the agility to get past someone like Marzolini out wide, who was a great marker. He badly needs a right back with good attacking skills to support him here, but I don't see how Gambetta will be willing to go forward whilst Sivori is lurking around.

I remember how much of a threat Conti was against Brazil, particularly as Junior had a tough time defending against him, and here, Ghiggia vs. Marinho will be no different. Ghiggia will be key here in making our we are threatening from the right side, and certainly, Marinho isn't good enough to mark Ghiggia out of the game. This is a route that heavily favours me.

For all of the height and power that onenil's team has at the back, I have players with excellent positioning in Sivori and Hugo who are hard to pick up with their wily movement, and both are also very good in the air with their large leap.

Also, Toninho was not really as positionally astute as he's being made out to be here. He was more of a box-to-box player who provided the physical presence in the midfield. However, in this case, our team's movement will be too much for him, and overall, I struggle to see who out of his midfield will pick up Didi and try to prevent him from having an influence in this game. Again, Didi will have the joy of not being picked up, and if he does get pressured, there's always Luis Pereira and Sensini around, both of who are quite comfortable on the ball and able to play it forward.

 

[Enigma_87]

Really like both teams. Feel that Onenil's lack of wide threat means his game will be played mostly in front of Nestor/Didi and that may give MMR a slight edge.

Onenil has width on the left tho with Marinho who is more of an attacking full back and Alexis in that role.

On the other hand mazhar has countered well with a defensive minded RB and Ghiggia as another wide option that can contribute defensively. It's like he knew he'd draw onenil

 

[mazhar13]

Alexis in that role

It always irks me when I see this being said about Alexis on the left side. Alexis on the right will provide width, but Alexis on the left is a very central player who loved drifting into the inside areas and rarely spent any time out wide unlike Eder who would equally as often stay out wide as he would cut inside. onenil's left side is too dependent on Marinho providing width, and this will play into my hands as Ghiggia will be able to spring forward like Conti did against Brazil excellently in the 1st and 3rd goals that Italy scored.

 

[mazhar13]

As an example of Toninho struggling with the midfield movement, one should watch both the matches Brazil played against Scotland and Argentina to see how he struggled to maintain the shape and opened up gaps for the opposition midfielders. This is where Enzo and Sivori can combine to great effect, and Didi in his box-to-box game can also drift into spaces and cause havoc in the midfield if needed.

 

[mazhar13]

I hope you guys don't mind me saying this, but if possible, please do not put any feelings about our Europa League match into this thread. I am recording the match so that I can watch it later when I get home, and I don't want to be spoiled, even if we get a bad result.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

First I will highlight the best player on the pitch Zico. MMR does not have the personnel to play Italy's tactic as effectively and I spent the entire draft correcting the weaknesses shown against Italy.

MMR's team simply can't handle Zico at his peak assisted by Socrates, Careca, Cerezo, Alexis.

Zico Assist to Socrates

Zico Two Assist against peak Liverpool 1981

Zico Defense Skill

Zico Dribbling

Zico Goal

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Really like both teams. Feel that Onenil's lack of wide threat means his game will be played mostly in front of Nestor/Didi and that may give MMR a slight edge.

There is no lack of wide threat. Let me explain. First, Mazhar accusation that Alexis produces no wide threat from the left is just flat out 100% wrong. I have watched every single game Alexis has played for Arsenal and even if he cuts inside and swaps positions, he stretches the defensive plenty of the left.

As someone posted yesterday we divide the pitch into 5 lanes. Outside-left, inside-left, center, inside-right and outside right. This team is structured for multiple players to be capable of stretching multiple lanes. Alexis is perfectly capable of taking advantage and stretching the defense down the outside-left but its more tactically efficient to manipulate the half spaces rather than post up on the outsides. Socrates is perfectly capable of stretching on the right. So is Careca whose superb off the ball movement to the right and left constantly opened up channels for Maradona.

This article explains the concept of maximizing efficient use of half spaces:
http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/09/16/the-half-spaces/

Its more efficient use of space to use the half spaces than to play on the sideline like traditional wingers. Also if you simply watched Brazil play there was never a "lack of width" issue. This idea that someone my team will not be using the flanks when efficient is just odd and incorrect.

 

[mazhar13]

First I will highlight the best player on the pitch Zico. MMR does not have the personnel to play Italy's tactic as effectively and I spent the entire draft correcting the weaknesses shown against Italy.

MMR's team simply can't handle Zico at his peak assisted by Socrates, Careca, Cerezo, Alexis.

Funnily enough, I also spent the draft trying to ensure that, if I ever faced you, I would make sure that we'd be better equipped were than Italy was against Brazil.

Both of our sides are more complete than the Brazil and Italy '82 sides, so the match will be tight, even tighter than the Italy-Brazil match was. However, your cavalier approach will be your undoing once again here as I have more technically able players than the Italy side had as well as players with a strong fighting spirit and tough mentality to get through all sorts of tough situations. I have three Uruguayan greats in Tito, Ghiggia, and Francescoli, all of whom are mentally though. Ghiggia was instrumental in defeating the 1950 Brazil side in a match similar to how the 1982 match between Brazil and Italy panned out. Tito was a key midfielder for Penarol who faced and defeated great attacking side as part of his team's more defensive setup. Francescoli was a player who often singlehandedly carried Uruguay's attacks; here, he has some great attacking teammates around him who will take some of that burden off of him.

Finally, our aim isn't to try and focus our efforts on Zico. We will do what Scotland did effectively until they tired and what Italy did for the whole match: focus on our shape, keep ourselves organised, plug up all of the gaps, and punish your team with the gaps that your players will inevitably leave. That's how your team will be beaten, and our team's perfectly equipped to do that.

 

[mazhar13]

I have watched every single game Alexis has played for Arsenal and even if he cuts inside and swaps positions, he stretches the defensive plenty of the left.

I've watched every single Arsenal match as well (courtesy of my brother who's an avid Arsenal fan), and I'm sorry, but I haven't really seen Alexis stretch defences on the left. He frequently drifts inside from there with Monreal, Gibbs, or any other left back taking up the space there. That plays into my team's hands here where Sensini and Luis Pereira are excellent at plugging up those half-spaces. You also Didi in front of them who was also very good at doing that same thing.

Regarding Socrates and Careca on the right, Careca always remained on the inside areas, so he won't really enter the right wing. Same with Socrates who would rarely do that himself. The majority of width in the Brazil 1982 side was provided by Leandro who played almost like a winger in that team. Here, you have Schubert Gambetta instead who doesn't have the skill set that Leandro or any other proper attacking full back would have.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Funnily enough, I also spent the draft trying to ensure that, if I ever faced you, I would make sure that we'd be better equipped were than Italy was against Brazil.

Both of our sides are more complete than the Brazil and Italy '82 sides, so the match will be tight, even tighter than the Italy-Brazil match was. However, your cavalier approach will be your undoing once again here as I have more technically able players than the Italy side had as well as players with a strong fighting spirit and tough mentality to get through all sorts of tough situations. I have three Uruguayan greats in Tito, Ghiggia, and Francescoli, all of whom are mentally though. Ghiggia was instrumental in defeating the 1950 Brazil side in a match similar to how the 1982 match between Brazil and Italy panned out. Tito was a key midfielder for Penarol who faced and defeated great attacking side as part of his team's more defensive setup. Francescoli was a player who often singlehandedly carried Uruguay's attacks; here, he has some great attacking teammates around him who will take some of that burden off of him.

Finally, our aim isn't to try and focus our efforts on Zico. We will do what Scotland did effectively until they tired and what Italy did for the whole match: focus on our shape, keep ourselves organised, plug up all of the gaps, and punish your team with the gaps that your players will inevitably leave. That's how your team will be beaten, and our team's perfectly equipped to do that.

First nowhere have I stated we are using a "cavalier approach". In fact, the entire tournament I have stated we are NOT cavalier as Brazil 1982 so that is a strawman.

Second, I have to disagree that your side is superior to Italy 1982. Your defense is not as strong.

Ghiggia will be almost no offensive threat in this match. In his team at Penarol and Roma Ghiggia scored only 45 goals in 370 matches! Marinho Chagas won the Bola de Prata (best in position) in Brazil in both 1973 and 1974. He is more than capable of ensuring Ghiggia has a quiet game.

Hugo Sanchez is not a big game player like Paolo Rossi was. He has disappeared on the biggest stages. He missed a penalty against Paraguay at Mexico ’86. In 1986 quarter finals vs. West Germany he had poor game. France Football gave him a 2 rating. He was seen as mentally weak back home for evading taking a penalty. This was the undisputed leader of the Mexican team supposedly elite level goal scorer. Yet he did not even step up to take the penalty. He later claimed it was due to cramp but that excuse is flimsy.

Hugo only has 1 goal in 8 World Cup matches. A lot of craques have missed World Cup penalties. But how many true legends lack the confidence to even take one? Sanchez divides opinion in Mexican. Many Mexicans I know personally view him as a bottler at the highest competitive level.

Even in Europe, while Sanchez won the Liga goal scorer award, Butragueno was generally seen as the better player. Here is France Football for 85 and 86 and Butragueno is recognized while Sanchez is not. Guerin Sportivo is the same.

http://i.imgur.com/s3LWfcx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zW4Nraa.jpg

http://imgur.com/a/zOTV

More often than not it was Butragueno who scored the key European Cup goals not Sanchez. Even the his highest scoring years he doesn’t even appear on France Football’s European Footballer of the year top 20s!

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy89.html

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy90.html

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Regarding Socrates and Careca on the right, Careca always remained on the inside areas, so he won't really enter the right wing. Same with Socrates who would rarely do that himself. The majority of width in the Brazil 1982 side was provided by Leandro who played almost like a winger in that team. Here, you have Schubert Gambetta instead who doesn't have the skill set that Leandro or any other proper attacking full back would have.

You are just stating things that are flat out not true.

First I linked a full match earlier with Careca at Napoli where was roaming all over the half spaces and yes even on the right to create space for Maradona.

Second, you are not understanding my teams use of the half spaces and how "width" is not just provided by some traditional winger glued to the sidelines. Gambetta (and Eyzaguirre before) don't have to play like a winger. They simply have to occupy half spaces and shift over when necessary. Gambetta, with a dribble named after him, is perfectly capable of stepping out to the side when it is tactically opportune.

What you seem to be missing is that I don't need a "proper attacking full back" on that side as that space is meant to be fluid and occupied by different players during different phases.

Its funny you bring up lack of width because you only cover 3 attacking channels yourself since Sivori is inside-center player. Actually maybe even only 2 attacking channels since Ghiggia is so withdrawn.

 

[Marty1968]

Like onenil's team here but think the defensive unit that we've created with Didi and Goncalves in front will be extremely difficult for him to break down (despite the quality players he possesses). Going forward Ghiggia will do so in a disciplined way. Francescoli behind Sanchez would be a dream partnership with Enzo playing the Laudrup role that worked so well with Sanchez at Madrid.

Our team is extremely organised and cannot see a clear weakness here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Like onenil's team here but think the defensive unit that we've created with Didi and Goncalves in front will be extremely difficult for him to break down (despite the quality players he possesses). Going forward Ghiggia will do so in a disciplined way. Francescoli behind Sanchez would be a dream partnership with Enzo playing the Laudrup role that worked so well with Sanchez at Madrid.

Our team is extremely organised and cannot see a clear weakness here.

Sorry mate, but if Mazhar is going to post frequently can you please not post?

I'm not interested in going 2 v 1

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

RW - Alcides Ghiggia - Volante: provide the width on the right side; send crosses in for Hugo Sanchez and Sivori; cut inside to go through on goal when possible

I don't think you mean volante. Volante is the "steering wheel" in Brazilian terminology which basically means the deep lying playmaker like Cerezo and Falcao.

 

[mazhar13]

I will be leaving soon as I need to get crucial work done here, so @Marty1968 can take over.

Second, I have to disagree that your side is superior to Italy 1982. Your defense is not as strong.

Individually, my players may not be as well-known or flashy, but defensively, they were still quite strong. Luis Pereira kept a clean sheet against a strong West Germany team in 1973 that had a peak Muller and Heynckes playing, and they were all left quiet.

Ghiggia will be almost no offensive threat in this match. In his team at Penarol and Roma Ghiggia scored only 45 goals in 370 matches! Marinho Chagas won the Bola de Prata (best in position) in Brazil in both 1973 and 1974. He is more than capable of ensuring Ghiggia has a quiet game.

Since when do goals determine a player's offensive threat? Ghiggia was the main creative outlet on the right who frequently created chances for the inside forward/strikers for both Uruguay and Penarol. The fact that he played such a creative role meant that he wouldn't get into goalscoring positions as often, but whenever he does get there, his accurate finishing comes into great use.

Even in Europe, while Sanchez won the Liga goal scorer award, Butragueno was generally seen as the better player. Here is France Football for 85 and 86 and Butragueno is recognized while Sanchez is not. Guerin Sportivo is the same.

http://i.imgur.com/s3LWfcx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zW4Nraa.jpg

http://imgur.com/a/zOTV

More often than not it was Butragueno who scored the key European Cup goals not Sanchez. Even the his highest scoring years he doesn’t even appear on France Football’s European Footballer of the year top 20s!

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy89.html

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy90.html

Come on, you know that France Football didn't consider non-European players until 1995, so of course Sanchez wouldn't be considered for the Ballon d'Or in any capacity.

Also, the fact that you are only focusing on the 1986 World Cup shows how nitpicky you are being in trying to dismiss Hugol. This is the same Hugol who was put into the FIFA 100, who won the Don Balon award twice as the best foreign player in La Liga (showing that he wasn't just a mere poacher), and the player who guided Mexico to a respectable 2nd place in the Copa America. This is in no way a player who would simply choke, particularly when he has such a great supporting cast around him.

 

[mazhar13]

I don't think you mean volante. Volante is the "steering wheel" in Brazilian terminology which basically means the deep lying playmaker like Cerezo and Falcao.

Yes, I meant tornante. I was rushing to finish the write-up, so I got them mixed up.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

@mazhar13 do you think Francescoli will face the same level of limitation as you said he would in our previous match -- or do you think he'll have a freer time of it in this game?

 

[mazhar13]

@Chesterlestreet I have PM'd an updated write-up with some very minor corrections. Do you mind updating it?

 

[mazhar13]

@mazhar13 do you think Francescoli will face the same level of limitation as you said he would in our previous match -- or do you think he'll have a freer time of it in this game?

@Marty1968 can answer this as I'm gonig to a meeting soon. If he doesn't come in, I'll answer it later.

I'm tagging you in Marty.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

@Marty1968 can answer this as I'm gonig to a meeting soon. If he doesn't come in, I'll answer it later.

No problem. I won't be voting for a while anyway.

 

[harms]

• Is Ghiggia defensively astute enough to play Conti's role?
• If it's zona mista, like mmr say, then it's a bad remake. Playing Mediano, Regista and Fantasista in a midfield three? You know that Tardelli was crucial to both Juve and Italy at that time and you have literally no one who even resembles his role

So, overall, you have 5 defensive-oriented players and you want to emulate one of the best defensive teams in history? That had Tardelli, that had Conti/Boniek with their immense workrate? The team that designated one of their defenders to a free-role so that he could've man-marked Maradona and Zico?

I don't know. I like the idea of recreating Brazil's kryptonite but the implementation is not good enough.

It's a good enough team, but you ask the wrong things from your players and it settles this game for me.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I will be leaving soon as I need to get crucial work done here, so @Marty1968 can take over.

Individually, my players may not be as well-known or flashy, but defensively, they were still quite strong. Luis Pereira kept a clean sheet against a strong West Germany team in 1973 that had a peak Muller and Heynckes playing, and they were all left quiet.

I don't think you can say with a straight face that your defense is of the caliber of Italy 1982 especially taking into account playing together as a team. And even then it wasn't scoring that was the Brazilians problem. It was playing too attacking when unnecessary which is a problem this selection does not have.

Since when do goals determine a player's offensive threat? Ghiggia was the main creative outlet on the right who frequently created chances for the inside forward/strikers for both Uruguay and Penarol. The fact that he played such a creative role meant that he wouldn't get into goalscoring positions as often, but whenever he does get there, his accurate finishing comes into great use.

Goals don't define a players offensive threat but the fact that Ghiggia is not much of a threat on goal means he is much easier to manage. Marinho had a longer career peak, is just as fast as Ghiggia and he has more support. Even if Ghiggia got passed, he has Montero or Marcos waiting which is not a proposition Ghiggia would enjoy. Also, if Ghiggia is looking for crosses that is even better because crossing is not as efficient means to score goals

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/06/22/an-ineffective-tool/
https://2plus2equals11.com/2014/02/10/youll-never-win-anything-with-crosses/

Also, the fact that you are only focusing on the 1986 World Cup shows how nitpicky you are being in trying to dismiss Hugol. This is the same Hugol who was put into the FIFA 100, who won the Don Balon award twice as the best foreign player in La Liga (showing that he wasn't just a mere poacher), and the player who guided Mexico to a respectable 2nd place in the Copa America. This is in no way a player who would simply choke, particularly when he has such a great supporting cast around him.

France Football I meant to edit out of that comment, but the overall point still holds.

Its not just his matches in three World Cups. Hugo Sanchez is simply not a big game player. Some players like Thomas Muller elevate themselves in big games. Sanchez does not. He was seen in Mexico back in 1986 as caring more about his endorsements and TV commercials than playing well for the national team. While some criticism of how he was only a flat track bully against the tiny CONCACAF nations was unfair, he simply underachieved on the biggest stage. No way would Sanchez have an impact in a big semi-final match the way Rossi did.

 

[Gio]

I've watched every single Arsenal match as well (courtesy of my brother who's an avid Arsenal fan), and I'm sorry, but I haven't really seen Alexis stretch defences on the left. He frequently drifts inside from there with Monreal, Gibbs, or any other left back taking up the space there. That plays into my team's hands here where Sensini and Luis Pereira are excellent at plugging up those half-spaces. You also Didi in front of them who was also very good at doing that same thing.

Regarding Socrates and Careca on the right, Careca always remained on the inside areas, so he won't really enter the right wing. Same with Socrates who would rarely do that himself. The majority of width in the Brazil 1982 side was provided by Leandro who played almost like a winger in that team. Here, you have Schubert Gambetta instead who doesn't have the skill set that Leandro or any other proper attacking full back would have.

Nah Gambetta was well known for his ability to carry the ball - almost a pioneer in that regard from the full-back area. He fits a Brazil '82 homage well IMO.

There is no lack of wide threat. Let me explain. First, Mazhar accusation that Alexis produces no wide threat from the left is just flat out 100% wrong. I have watched every single game Alexis has played for Arsenal and even if he cuts inside and swaps positions, he stretches the defensive plenty of the left.

As someone posted yesterday we divide the pitch into 5 lanes. Outside-left, inside-left, center, inside-right and outside right. This team is structured for multiple players to be capable of stretching multiple lanes. Alexis is perfectly capable of taking advantage and stretching the defense down the outside-left but its more tactically efficient to manipulate the half spaces rather than post up on the outsides. Socrates is perfectly capable of stretching on the right. So is Careca whose superb off the ball movement to the right and left constantly opened up channels for Maradona.

This article explains the concept of maximizing efficient use of half spaces:
http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/09/16/the-half-spaces/

Its more efficient use of space to use the half spaces than to play on the sideline like traditional wingers. Also if you simply watched Brazil play there was never a "lack of width" issue. This idea that someone my team will not be using the flanks when efficient is just odd and incorrect.

I'm not buying either Sanchez or Socrates offering much genuine width as both will occupy or hit the inside-left/right channels. But that doesn't really matter because both Marinho Chagas and Gambetta can overlap with the best of them, which is what any classic Brazilian team were all about. You also get a nice complementarity between the cut and thrust of Sanchez and the elegant precision of Socrates. The fact Zico and Socrates have shone together as well proves that partnership will work.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Nah Gambetta was well known for his ability to carry the ball - almost a pioneer in that regard from the full-back area. He fits a Brazil '82 homage well IMO.

I'm not buying either Sanchez or Socrates offering much genuine width as both will occupy or hit the inside-left/right channels. But that doesn't really matter because both Marinho Chagas and Gambetta can overlap with the best of them, which is what any classic Brazilian team were all about. You also get a nice complementarity between the cut and thrust of Sanchez and the elegant precision of Socrates. The fact Zico and Socrates have shone together as well proves that partnership will work.

I agree with this. I think I am not explaining very well. For me Alexis and Socrates, its not so much about them necessary always being on the extreme flank. But if they are positioned in the inside-left and inside-right then the flank is an option for movement and passes depending on the circumstance. So the opponent can't just ignore the outside-left for instance, because Alexis can move into there. They can take a pass and turn to move into that space. Admittedly he would likely dribble outside-left then cut back inside but there is still threat into that space so it can't just be ignored and the space will be used if it is ignored. I hope that makes sense?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Even if Alexis likes to cut inside that does not mean he would not take advantage of space if it is open. An opponent would have to come to cover that outside left which creates opportunities:

Spoiler: Alexis outside dribble creates free kick opportunity

Or if he is afforded more space outside then Alexis can start an off the ball run on the outside left and come inside like this to score:

Spoiler

We also have plenty of players capable of scoring from outside the box as well

Spoiler: Socrates long range shot

Spoiler: Zico Free Kick against Scotland '82

 

[Enigma_87]

It always irks me when I see this being said about Alexis on the left side. Alexis on the right will provide width, but Alexis on the left is a very central player who loved drifting into the inside areas and rarely spent any time out wide unlike Eder who would equally as often stay out wide as he would cut inside. onenil's left side is too dependent on Marinho providing width, and this will play into my hands as Ghiggia will be able to spring forward like Conti did against Brazil excellently in the 1st and 3rd goals that Italy scored.

My point was that Alexis fits well in that left side, being a inside forward. Marinho is known for his attacking game(defensively less so) so I can see that working a bit like Marcelo/Ronaldo for Real.

Marinho can provide width in this game, because Sensini is unlikely to push forward (and tucked in as well to fit the formation) while Ghiggia would cover a lot of ground, so I can see him having some joy there. Having said that I do prefer Leonel Sanchez there instead of Alexis. I'm not sure Alexis has surpassed him quality wise although I can see some merit in having his work rate to help out the midfield.

The right side is what is more problematic for onenil as I don't see Socrates providing width there, Gambetta can carry the ball and put some attacking threat I suppose.

I'm not sure why you went with zona mista to be fair. 4-3-3 with Dani Alves instead of Sensini would have been better IMO against onenil central approach. That 4-2-2-2 system had some flaws that would be exposed not only against that Italy side.

The 1982 side was a bit like that 1970 side - integrating the best players Brazil had at the time instead of picking the best formation and sacrificing some of them. Abundance of AM's and Falcao could have not featured at all if it wasn't for Cerezo's ban.

The system is highly dependent on the full backs, in a free role. Two solid full backs and 2 excellent wingers will always give that side a problem IMO.

 

[Enigma_87]

Voted for onenil and Joga for mazhar to even it out with the knowledge of not being able to vote in this game, but we both were pretty curious about the scoreline

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

...

Regarding Alexis I wanted his pace and workrate. Here is a quote from a contemporary report from Rob Smyth & Scott Murray from the 82 Italy-Brazil match from Rossi's first goal:

"Conti circled lazily away from Cerezo near the halfway line, made 15 yards, swerved away from Eder’s token challenge and then swept a regal outside-of-the-foot crossfi eld pass to the onrushing Cabrini on the left"

Alexis won't be putting any token challenges in and that was a factor in the loss, lack of cohesive team defense. I feel, even more than Leonel, Alexis contributes to that team defense with his workrate, pace and Bielsa training.

The right side is what is more problematic for onenil as I don't see Socrates providing width there, Gambetta can carry the ball and put some attacking threat I suppose.

I'm not sure why you went with zona mista to be fair. 4-3-3 with Dani Alves instead of Sensini would have been better IMO against onenil central approach. That 4-2-2-2 system had some flaws that would be exposed not only against that Italy side.

The 1982 side was a bit like that 1970 side - integrating the best players Brazil had at the time instead of picking the best formation and sacrificing some of them. Abundance of AM's and Falcao could have not featured at all if it wasn't for Cerezo's ban.

The system is highly dependent on the full backs, in a free role. Two solid full backs and 2 excellent wingers will always give that side a problem IMO.

I have to say I am not sure how my right side is problematic. During this draft I have re-watched all the 82 games, a number of friendlies, the mundialito and numerous other clips. I have also read dozens and dozens of articles on Brazil '82 loss in several languages.

I have never once seen anyone mention Brazil's "lack of width" on the right as any factor in their Italy defeat. That 1982 match report from Smyth and Murray never mentions anything like a lack of width (its in Blizzard issue 13)

If anything Leandro provided too much attacking width leaving too much space open behind. My specific goal on the right was to not have a attacking full back that bombs forward at every chance like Dani Alves or Nelinho. This was for the specific reason that that was almost unnecessary for Brazil in 1982. It contributed to the careless attacking attitude. I want a right full back that provides some supporting width but won't get caught dribbling into the far corner.

Here is another quote from that match report that explains the issues my draft fixed with my selection:

"The problem was that they were loitering with all the urgency of civil servants by the coffee machine and had no idea the ball was coming. It also bisected them perfectly. Luizinho was trotting upfield, Falcão wasn’t expecting the pass and it was too late by the time Junior realized what day it was"

You won't catch Alexis, Marcos or Domingos being this lazy. So its not really this apparent lack of width that was the problem which led to Italy's goals. Lazy and disorganized defending is almost universally considered the reason for the loss not a tactical mistake with lack of width on the right. I feel I have fixed with my selection and slightly more careful tactics the issues that actually led to the defeat.

Basically what I envision is play like this that unbalances the defense where the fullback is supporting but not getting careless:


Hmm its not embedding at the time I want but 7:19

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

• Is Ghiggia defensively astute enough to play Conti's role?
• If it's zona mista, like mmr say, then it's a bad remake. Playing Mediano, Regista and Fantasista in a midfield three? You know that Tardelli was crucial to both Juve and Italy at that time and you have literally no one who even resembles his role

So, overall, you have 5 defensive-oriented players and you want to emulate one of the best defensive teams in history? That had Tardelli, that had Conti/Boniek with their immense workrate? The team that designated one of their defenders to a free-role so that he could've man-marked Maradona and Zico?

I don't know. I like the idea of recreating Brazil's kryptonite but the implementation is not good enough.

It's a good enough team, but you ask the wrong things from your players and it settles this game for me.

These are good points. Here is a good image of the Italy 82 tactic

Spoiler

I don't think the formation or personnel that MMR are using can replicate this Italian tactic as effectively. One noticeable difference is that MMR formation shifts much attention to his right side whereas the Italian formation shifts more attention to his left side.

 

[RedTiger]

How is Marty and Mazhar losing this???

 

[mazhar13]

I don't think you can say with a straight face that your defense is of the caliber of Italy 1982 especially taking into account playing together as a team. And even then it wasn't scoring that was the Brazilians problem. It was playing too attacking when unnecessary which is a problem this selection does not have.

I never mentioned whether it was equal to that caliber or not. All I was saying was that our defence is still quite strong and capable of keeping out great attacking teams.

Until Brazil met the Netherlands in the 1974 World Cup, Brazil did not concede a single goal from open play. Sensini won multiple honours with Parma and became a great for that club, leading them to UEFA Cup glories as well as Coppa Italia victories. Gamarra was a wall for Paraguay at the 1998 World Cup and kept out a France side that had some great attacking players for beyond 90 minutes. Marzolini was known as one of the best left backs in his time, making it to the 1966 FIFA World Cup team of the tournament as well as the FIFA XI in 1968.

These aren't some schmucks your attacking players are facing. These are tough defenders who will make it very difficult for your attacking players to get a goal.

Goals don't define a players offensive threat but the fact that Ghiggia is not much of a threat on goal means he is much easier to manage. Marinho had a longer career peak, is just as fast as Ghiggia and he has more support. Even if Ghiggia got passed, he has Montero or Marcos waiting which is not a proposition Ghiggia would enjoy. Also, if Ghiggia is looking for crosses that is even better because crossing is not as efficient means to score goals

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/06/22/an-ineffective-tool/
https://2plus2equals11.com/2014/02/10/youll-never-win-anything-with-crosses/

Good thing Ghiggia was not just limited to lofted crosses. He is also very well-known for his ground crosses that caught defences off guard. In fact, in the 1950 World Cup final, his assist to Schiaffino was via a ground cross, so it's not like Ghiggia's crossing is limited to just lofted crosses.

Its not just his matches in three World Cups. Hugo Sanchez is simply not a big game player. Some players like Thomas Muller elevate themselves in big games. Sanchez does not. He was seen in Mexico back in 1986 as caring more about his endorsements and TV commercials than playing well for the national team. While some criticism of how he was only a flat track bully against the tiny CONCACAF nations was unfair, he simply underachieved on the biggest stage. No way would Sanchez have an impact in a big semi-final match the way Rossi did.

Okay, you claim that he isn't a big game player, and you only support it by alluding to 1986. Anything else, or is 1986 the only reference you'll make to his lack of big-game pedigree? I can tell you that, for Real Madrid, he scored on the big occasions rather than shy away as you said. He was a key player in the comeback against Inter in the 2nd leg of the UEFA Cup semi-finals in 1986. In the European Cup, he scored against the best teams around, the likes of AC Milan, PSV, Napoli, and Porto, never shying away from them as you claim.

 

[mazhar13]

How is Marty and Mazhar losing this???

I expected this, to be honest. I wanted to post some footage of some of my players, but the fact that YouTube is blocked at my workplace severely limits me. That, and I've been quite busy this week as well with work.

 

[mazhar13]

I expected to lose this, honestly, given that I was really busy today and wasn't capable of fully putting my arguments out up front, but whatever, stuff happens.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I never mentioned whether it was equal to that caliber or not. All I was saying was that our defence is still quite strong and capable of keeping out great attacking teams.

Until Brazil met the Netherlands in the 1974 World Cup, Brazil did not concede a single goal from open play. Sensini won multiple honours with Parma and became a great for that club, leading them to UEFA Cup glories as well as Coppa Italia victories. Gamarra was a wall for Paraguay at the 1998 World Cup and kept out a France side that had some great attacking players for beyond 90 minutes. Marzolini was known as one of the best left backs in his time, making it to the 1966 FIFA World Cup team of the tournament as well as the FIFA XI in 1968.

These aren't some schmucks your attacking players are facing. These are tough defenders who will make it very difficult for your attacking players to get a goal.

I am still not entirely sure how you are trying to defend. You referenced both Italy 82 and Scotland and both had different approaches. Italy heavily relied on using one of the best man markers of all time in Gentile to mark Zico. Zico still got a brilliant assist and opened up a lot of space dragging Gentile around. You haven't even stated if you are man marking Zico like Italy which you are drawing inspiration from. It doesn't seem like you have a consistent strategy here to cope with my strengths. Brazil started the scoring on Scotland at minute 33 with Zico's free kick before winning 4-1. I don't think your system really replicates the reasons why Italy's tactic which I linked above was successful.

Good thing Ghiggia was not just limited to lofted crosses. He is also very well-known for his ground crosses that caught defences off guard. In fact, in the 1950 World Cup final, his assist to Schiaffino was via a ground cross, so it's not like Ghiggia's crossing is limited to just lofted crosses.

Marinho is fast and wily enough to handle Ghiggia. 1:30

Spoiler

Okay, you claim that he isn't a big game player, and you only support it by alluding to 1986. Anything else, or is 1986 the only reference you'll make to his lack of big-game pedigree? I.

1 goal in 8 World Cup matches is spread across 3 different world cups. And more often than not Butragueno is the one who scored the key CL goals during that era.

 

[Enigma_87]

How is Marty and Mazhar losing this???

I think the zona mista example did the damage with most people not buying it.

Regarding Alexis I wanted his pace and workrate. Here is a quote from a contemporary report from Rob Smyth & Scott Murray from the 82 Italy-Brazil match from Rossi's first goal:

"Conti circled lazily away from Cerezo near the halfway line, made 15 yards, swerved away from Eder’s token challenge and then swept a regal outside-of-the-foot crossfi eld pass to the onrushing Cabrini on the left"

Alexis won't be putting any token challenges in and that was a factor in the loss, lack of cohesive team defense. I feel, even more than Leonel, Alexis contributes to that team defense with his workrate, pace and Bielsa training.

yeah expected that was the case.

I have to say I am not sure how my right side is problematic. During this draft I have re-watched all the 82 games, a number of friendlies, the mundialito and numerous other clips. I have also read dozens and dozens of articles on Brazil '82 loss in several languages.

I have never once seen anyone mention Brazil's "lack of width" on the right as any factor in their Italy defeat. That 1982 match report from Smyth and Murray never mentions anything like a lack of width (its in Blizzard issue 13)

I don't have the Italy game in mind particularly. That Brazil team didn't have some particular instructions in place they were allowed a lot of freedom and could roam around their positions. The style was more like trying to move the ball up field and keep possession but on a slower pace. A more pressing team in midfield would give them trouble as well as solid flanks to counter their overlapping fullbacks. One of the goals in that Italy game was after a sloppy pass from Cerezo from memory.

Eder was playing as a winger for me, I've watched the games as well and he was not the typical center forward or inside forward but more in a winger like role, although you would see most of the time the 4-2-2-2 formation. Leandro was bombing on the right and combining with Socrates, but Socrates himself was a central player that played off Zico and in a deeper role compared to him.

The system itself had excellent players that could shoot well from distance - Socrates, Eder, Zico, and dead ball specialists as well - which helped in unlocking defences that sat too deep and gave them time and space on the ball.

If anything Leandro provided too much attacking width leaving too much space open behind. My specific goal on the right was to not have a attacking full back that bombs forward at every chance like Dani Alves or Nelinho. This was for the specific reason that that was almost unnecessary for Brazil in 1982. It contributed to the careless attacking attitude. I want a right full back that provides some supporting width but won't get caught dribbling into the far corner.

Here is another quote from that match report that explains the issues my draft fixed with my selection:

"The problem was that they were loitering with all the urgency of civil servants by the coffee machine and had no idea the ball was coming. It also bisected them perfectly. Luizinho was trotting upfield, Falcão wasn’t expecting the pass and it was too late by the time Junior realized what day it was"

You won't catch Alexis, Marcos or Domingos being this lazy. So its not really this apparent lack of width that was the problem which led to Italy's goals. Lazy and disorganized defending is almost universally considered the reason for the loss not a tactical mistake with lack of width on the right. I feel I have fixed with my selection and slightly more careful tactics the issues that actually led to the defeat.

Basically what I envision is play like this that unbalances the defense where the fullback is supporting but not getting careless:


Hmm its not embedding at the time I want but 7:19

You need a very attacking right back that would bomb forward at every chance, since that right flank is all to himself. I don't agree that you need balanced full back, this is against the premise of that team and formation. Gambetta is a bit like Leandro to be fair, he would give space open behind and will give you that ball carrying that you need, which is why I thought you picked him, but to me Alves is better in that sense(from what I've seen of him and read of Gambetta).

Just my thoughts on this

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You need a very attacking right back that would bomb forward at every chance, since that right flank is all to himself. I don't agree that you need balanced full back, this is against the premise of that team and formation. Gambetta is a bit like Leandro to be fair, he would give space open behind and will give you that ball carrying that you need, which is why I thought you picked him, but to me Alves is better in that sense(from what I've seen of him and read of Gambetta).

Just my thoughts on this

Why do you believe this? Leandro bombing forward combined with the lazy team defense was the biggest weakness and caused the loss to Italy.

This image shows what I mean with Socrates on the inside right. My tactic was never meant to play like one with Garrincha. Tele Santana’s ideal side was always Holland total football inspired. He always wanted his side to both attack and defend as a unit. The failure against Italy was more in the side not defending. Not holding possession as a unit. It could provide width on the right as needed as a unit as Tele intended.

Socrates is most advanced and in the inside-right lane. The RB is on the outside right lane. He simply is more withdrawn at this point. The right holding mid provides support further back in the inside right lane able to switch play around the defense. The option to attack the outside right is present.

Spoiler

Now, Gambetta can certainly get forward and provide a presence in that outside right channel if necessary but IMO and from every re-watch and every match report, the biggest flaw to Tele's tactic against Italy was the lazy team defense and wanton and careless bombing forward. Never seen any football journalist every criticize that Brazil side for lack of width on the right. And Gambetta can provide that, he just isn't instructed to be careless as Leandro was against Italy.