The Daredevil Draft Grande Finale | Enigma vs. Jim Beam | Final Score 8-5

[GodShaveTheQueen]

----------------------------------------- ENIGMA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JIM BEAM -----------------------------------

Enigma's write up:

Formation: 4-3-3, balanced defensive line.

TACTICS:

DEFENCE:
Originally intended to create an all time best German defensive back line we managed to get four of the five pieces. Vogts and Brehme are one of the very best in their position in history, whilst undoubtedly Kohler is the greatest stopper the game has seen. Sepp Maier stands on goal, whilst Chumpitaz, whilst obviously not at the same level as der Kaiser, bring some of the same traits - excellent on the ball, fast on the deck and tough in the tackle offering the needed qualities to counter Eto'o pace and agility.

Brehme will get more opportunities to go forward as the right side is the opposition weaker area with Bessonov the only natural wide defender on that side. Brehme ability as a natural overlapper and Rensenbrink's dexterity, agility and dribbling can cause the opposition all sorts of problems and open up a numerical advantage. On the other side we have a proven partnership between Vogts and Kalle in the national team.

MIDFIELD:
With the introduction of Di Stefano, we managed to push our spine to another level. Di Stefano's engine and ability to control the proceedings is well known and alongside Rijkaard and Van Hanegem makes is a very tough nut to break for even on of the greatest ones in Xaviesta, that we would face. Our midfield has a very good blend of playmaking ability, sheer physicality, ability on the ball and great engine to outrun and out-will the opposition. Without the initial intent to build around Di Stefano, I'd say that this team has all what it takes to make him shine, without clash of personalities. Van Hanegem and Rijkaard are players that had great individual ability, motor but first and foremost were team players that would let Di Stefano run the show. On top of that we have Rensenbrink and Kalle who are industrious forwards notorious for their excellent movement up front and ability to get the end of Di Stefano's passes.

ATTACK:
With Rensenbrink, Kalle and Puskas we have a trio that is capable of great off the ball movement, dribbling ability and one of the best finishers in the game in Puskas. Puskas, Rensenbrink and Kalle has it all in terms of movement, technique and will to win, whilst Van Hanegem and Di Stefano will play a key role in setting them up or exploiting their movement and finish chances on their own.

Why we would win:
Di Stefano - You can't let it slip. After like 100 drafts the great man hasn't won one and it's a darn shame. Here he has a great supportive cast and a team unit, which he would enjoy to steer to his first win. Everything set aside, he's the best player on the pitch and we're recreating a fantastic and proven partnership between him and Puskas as a focal point of our team.
Brehme / Rensenbrink - Although probably Rensenbrink tends to be underrated in historical sense - he's one of the greatest left forwards in history and with Brehme attacking output that partnership has it all to create a game winning advantage for us, considering IMO this being a weaker area for the opposition.
Well known pairings and partnerships across the team - whilst the opposition boasts with the Xaviesta tandem, we take it to the next level with proven partnerships like Di Stefano/Puskas, Van Hanegem/ Rensenbrink and Vogts/Kalle/Maier/Brehme who shared the pitch as duo's at some point.
Defence being a nice fit for their attack - Chumpitaz / Kohler is a nice fit for the opposition pair in Law and Eto'o - both in therms of class and quality, but also in terms of ability, agility and pace. Chumpitaz is one of the fastest CB's around, whilst Kohler's ability to handle one of the best CF's in the game in van Basten is well documented and produced some exciting battles. On top of that we have Rijkaard at the base and two of the best full backs around.

Jim Beam's write up:

Tactics: an unorthodox 3-5-2 formation

In the attacking phase, the team is capable of controlling the tempo of the game and most importantly creating either from deep positions, the centre of the pitch or from the flanks providing balls to that absolute live wire of an attack.
The shape also becomes a 3142 at times as the wing-backs push high up the attack, stretching the pitch and opening up space for the central midfielders to run into or pass easier, while also occupying opponent fullbacks so that the forward two can run into the vacant space between the opposition FB and CB.

In the defensive phase, everyone will drop back making a classical 532, extremely hard to break, both from the flanks and middle of the pitch which will ensure that Di Stefano can't get his foot on the match as much as he would like it.

The team is also more than capable to make a quick transition from the defensive phase and hit the opponent on the counter if and when the other team loses the ball in any area of the pitch.

Why Beam?

1. Why the hell not?

2. It was always on the card to finish the draft with this version of the team constantly changing it from the 1st round and was sealed once I got Krol and Cannavaro, so I could make that defensive wall in which everyone will feel comfortable in their role. Krol in LCB role and Cannavaro in RCB role which got him into the team of the tournament at Euro 2000 in that famous Italy backline which was practically unbreakable.

Anyway, if anyone can hold onto that enigma's attack it would be this gentleman's.

3. It is the final step from pulling Iniesta and Xavi out of that comfort zone and while previous tactics relied on real-life examples this one will require a bit of more persuading. However, since it is not a typical 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 I think it is very workable based on system characteristics as Xavi and Iniesta basically stay inside the same midfield three, but have also multiple options and adequate personnel to dominate the game.

So, what are the system characteristics?

- you have the centre-backs looking to step out, you've got wingbacks near the midfielders which enables you to play on the front foot and establish domination. Both the defenders and wingbacks are extremely important, defenders to step up forward and draw the opponent midfield and the wingbacks to provide that extra options for my midfield to have more control on the game. It is basically a knock-on effect on all phases of the game drawing midfielders toward defenders, drawing defenders and fullbacks forward;

- holding midfielder in Voronin protects the backline, but also has a great passing ability to play behind the lines while Xavi and Iniesta always provide the passing option along with wingbacks on the sides;

- Denis Law is extremely important puzzle too as he provides the link with the attack and he will be here in his favourite free-roaming role helping midfield and attacking the opponent backline along with Eto'o;

My favourite player was Alfredo di Stefano, the great Real Madrid star. He could score goals, but he could also perform all over the pitch. That's the way I wanted to play. I liked to play inside-forward. But Matt felt differently and I wasn't happy. Of course, I was delighted to score a goal or two but, in that role, you could miss a lot of the game. I always wanted to be involved.

So, here you go Denis... Against Di Stefano of all people. Anyone who watched how Law played knows that he was an all attacking menace which loved to be involved in all phases and had a brilliant all-around game. A perfect partner to help Xaviesta. Both him and Eto'o will constantly interchange and have a licence to cause havoc in the attack.

- the team keeps its shape in the defensive phase but uses a high press against the opponent once the ball is lost. One player acts as the trigger immediately pressing the opposition player with the ball. As the same time the rest of the team press and stick to other players that might receive the ball. It results in quick retaining the ball and immediate attack or at least in pushing the opposition player backwards allowing the team to withdraw into 5-3-2 shape. Forward line with Eto'o and Law, accompanied with that midfield along with wingbacks couldn't be more suited to do so. Once they are in a 5-3-2 shape the team becomes almost impossible to break. The team still maintains it's aggressivity while being in 5-3-2 shape not allowing the other team much time on the ball;

- positional interchange and rotation in the attack which brings unpredictability and allows the team to hit you from anywhere and from any player on the pitch with attackers pulling wide allowing wingbacks or midfielders to push through the middle, midfielders going on the wing creating numerical advantage or pushing wingbacks to join the attack, wingbacks pushing all the way to the byline allowing forwards to attack the space between the FB and CB;

Inspirations: Gareth Southgate WC England & Gian Piero Gasperini Atalanta

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @Enigma_87 @Jim Beam

May the best man win!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The voting will be open for 48 hours because we have two managers who love to debate

Hopefully gives a better voter turnout as well.

 

[Isotope]

Man.. how do you choose between these two juggernauts? Love them both.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers @GodShaveTheQueen for setting it up and best of luck @Jim Beam

The voting will be open for 48 hours because we have two managers who love to debate

Hopefully gives a better voter turnout as well.

Tomorrow I won't be able to participate as I'm traveling but will try to cover as much as possible if there are any questions of the setup today.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yeah, am a bit swamped as well, so maybe leave it for 24 hours as usual @GodShaveTheQueen. Thanks for setting it up btw.

Thanks for waiting @Enigma_87, in any case if you won't be around I won't discuss further after tomorrow morning. Best of luck also!

Will join with a bit later with a few thoughts about both teams and the game.

 

[Enigma_87]

To kick it off, I didn't have the idea of creating a team around Di Stefano in the first place, but with the advance of the draft it turned out to be a team that he can slot in seamlessly and also elevate to the next level.

Born 14 years before Pelé, Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest player of his time, of that there's no doubt. Representing Spain, Argentina and Colombia at international level, securing a record five consecutive European Cup titles for Real Madrid, European Footballer of the Year twice in three years in the late 1950s, here is the player described by his coach at Real Madrid, Miguel Munoz:

The greatness of Di Stéfano was that, with him in your side, you had two players in every position.

Di Stefano was the last great product of the golden age of Argentine football, the 1940s, when he starred for River Plate.

After the big players' strike there in 1948 he was snapped up by Colombia's newly launched league, and helped get the professional game off the ground in that country as the star of the great Millonarios side. And in 1953, at the age of 27, he went to Real Madrid and changed the course of history.

Alfredo di Stefano (centre) won La Liga on eight occasions with Real Madrid
When the European Cup - as the Champions League was then known - was launched in the 1955-56 season there was no guarantee of success. World War II was still very recent, though the continent was rebuilding and starting to pull away from post-war austerity.

The English authorities were sufficiently suspicious of the whole thing to discourage domestic champions Chelsea from taking up their invitation to enter the inaugural version. In hindsight, such an attitude appears ridiculous, because it meant English crowds were missing out on the Di Stefano show.

Bobby Charlton got a close look in 1957, when he watched from the stands in the first leg of the semi-final, Manchester United away to Real Madrid.

"Who is this man?" was Charlton's instant response. "He takes the ball from the goalkeeper; he tells the full-backs what to do; wherever he is on the field he is in position to take the ball; you can see his influence on everything that is happening... I had never seen such a complete footballer.

"It was as though he had set up his own command centre at the heart of the game. He was as strong as he was subtle. The combination of qualities was mesmerising."

Alfredo Di Stefano's honours
Five European Cups	1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960 (Real Madrid)
Eight Spanish leagues	1954, 1955, 1957, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964 (Real Madrid)
One Spanish Cup	1962 (Real Madrid)
One Intercontinental Cup	1960 (Real Madrid)
Two Argentine leagues	1945, 1947 (River Plate)
One America Cup	1947 (River Plate)
Four Colombian leagues	1949, 1951, 1952, 1953 (Millonarios Bogota)

All of Europe was going through the same experience. Di Stefano took the game of football to a level the continent had never seen before.

He was not only the driving force behind Real Madrid winning the first five European Cups, he was also chiefly responsible for the quick success of the competition. Everyone wanted to see his Real Madrid side.

A rare footballing all-rounder, Di Stéfano was useful in both attack and defence - but his record in front of goal speaks for itself; 396 official appearances for Los Blancos, 308 goals. A true marksman.

Di Stéfano had everything; pace, a silken touch, strength, two-footedness, outrageous skills, a rifle of a shot and the arrogance and swagger synonymous with our modern day stars.

The original 'second striker', Di Stéfano was given a free role in Los Merengues' front line. Drifting around the final third, La Saeta Rubia - or 'Blonde Arrow' - would terrorise defenders with his languid style and determination to keep the ball. For those not so familiar with football in the 1950s and 60s, imagine an amalgamation of Zinedine Zidane and Dimitar Berbatov.

To this day, so many players are defined by how they have performed on the biggest stage; Lionel Messi, Ronaldo, Paul Pogba - all of them feel the weight of expectation every time they don the colours of their club or country in a significant match. Well, Di Stéfano was the ultimate big-game player; In each of the European Cup finals he played in, he netted at least once. Some return, some reward.

At the peak of his powers, Di Stéfano scored in finals against Reims (on two occasions), Fiorentina, Milan and Eintracht Frankfurt as Los Blancos made history - a winning streak that is still unmatched to this day but also acts as the fuel for the club's modern success. Inevitably, recognition came with Ballon d'Or wins in 1957 and 1959.

While he is hailed as a footballing god among Madridistas, it is perhaps his international career where he falls behind the likes of Pelé and Maradona in the rankings of the best players of all time. Although he eventually took Spanish citizenship, the Saeta Rubia was born in Buenos Aires. He played for River Plate there and Millonarios in Colombia before Real came a' calling, beating arch rivals Barcelona to his signature in controversial circumstances in 1953.

Strangely, given the less stringent rules at the time, Di Stéfano represented Argentina, Colombia AND Spain at international level, but crucially never played in a FIFA World Cup. Argentina were one of many countries to withdraw from the 1950 tournament - the first after the Second World War. Then in 1954, Di Stéfano was deemed ineligible to play for Spain having already represented Argentina and Colombia - a decision that wasn't reversed until three years later.

It seems - on the international level at least - that the Blonde Arrow's luck was out. Spain failed to qualify for the 1958 World Cup, and in one final cruel blow, Di Stéfano was injured just before the 1962 tournament aged 36.

While history has seen him marked down for a lack of World Cup experience and success, a Super Ballon D'Or awarded to him in 1989 goes some way to demonstrating where he is held in the estimations of the football world. He remains the only player to receive such an honour.

"I think the best was [Alfredo] Di Stéfano, he was superior to everyone - even me.

- Diego Maradona

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If anyone asks me to pick a midfield in an all time sense to counter Xaviesta, it would be -

------Di Stefano--------Neeskens------
--------------------Rijkaard--------------------

Should have blocked Di Stefano.

 

[Jim Beam]

If anyone asks me to pick a midfield in an all time sense to counter Xaviesta, it would be -

------Di Stefano--------Neeskens------
--------------------Rijkaard--------------------

Should have blocked Di Stefano.

You can turn it around and say if you want to counter Di Stefano strengths Xaviesta is the worst possible duo.

Rijkaard should have been at CB.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Jim Beam I sort of expected those faces in your line up and also tried to go full pelt on that right side of yours and blocking most of the GOAT RB's

The only unclear to me in your tactics is generally your positions off the ball. The main thing that helped Barcelona dominate games was basically the high press and industrious forwards that were able to press the opposition full backs.

With 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 hybrid in the defensive phase I understand that you are ditching the high press and dropping deep to defend?

It makes sense of course, but in that sense it allows Brehme/ Rensenbrink to double up on Bessonov, which is IMO the most vulnerable area in your side. Naturally Cannavaro can cover but that is always the best route to break 5-3-2 and to pull the CB's wide, allowing more space for both Di Stefano and Puskas in the middle.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Jim Beam I sort of expected those faces in your line up and also tried to go full pelt on that right side of yours and blocking most of the GOAT RB's

Well, I always wanted to go with another shape in the final. The reason why Roberto Carlos and Facchetti were my first picks. I also tried to block GOAT LW as I didn't want another GOAT on that side which was exceptional on the counter in Ronaldo and Best. Although, Rensebrink is a great player of course.

Basically, yeah, preferred your spine is the strongest through the middle and battling it there as opposed to more dangerous counter-attacking set up.

The only unclear to me in your tactics is generally your positions off the ball. The main thing that helped Barcelona dominate games was basically the high press and industrious forwards that were able to press the opposition full backs.

With 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 hybrid in the defensive phase I understand that you are ditching the high press and dropping deep to defend?

It makes sense of course, but in that sense it allows Brehme/ Rensenbrink to double up on Bessonov, which is IMO the most vulnerable area in your side. Naturally Cannavaro can cover but that is always the best route to break 5-3-2 and to pull the CB's wide, allowing more space for both Di Stefano and Puskas in the middle.

It is in the tactics:

the team keeps its shape in the defensive phase but uses a high press against the opponent once the ball is lost. One player acts as the trigger immediately pressing the opposition player with the ball. As the same time the rest of the team press and stick to other players that might receive the ball. It results in quick retaining the ball and immediate attack or at least in pushing the opposition player backwards allowing the team to withdraw into 5-3-2 shape. Forward line with Eto'o and Law, accompanied with that midfield along with wingbacks couldn't be more suited to do so. Once they are in a 5-3-2 shape the team becomes almost impossible to break. The team still maintains it's aggressivity while being in 5-3-2 shape not allowing the other team much time on the ball;

It is the way Atalanta press with Gasperini and one of the reasons (aside from his brilliant attacking game) that Law was the chosen one. The team will press high and it is build that way.

No reason to ditch high pressing if you opt for 3-5-2 as seen in today's game.

 

[Enigma_87]

It is in the tactics:


It is the way Atalanta press with Gasperini and one of the reasons (aside from his brilliant attacking game) that Law was the chosen one. The team will press high and it is build that way.

No reason to ditch high pressing if you opt for 3-5-2 as seen in today's game.

Yeah that part got me confused there:

In the defensive phase, everyone will drop back making a classical 532, extremely hard to break, both from the flanks and middle of the pitch which will ensure that Di Stefano can't get his foot on the match as much as he would like it.

In other words - the wing backs will drop back and your press comes from the center (Law/Eto'o/Iniesta/Xavi)?

The key in the high press is the collective press which is always hard to pull off and the biggest conundrum in your tactics for me is who will do the press wide, as for example Brehme was basically a playmaker at the back and perfectly capable of slicing passes up the pitch or finding another player and bringing others in the game fairly quickly.

Whilst Iniesta is a good option to press high, I'm not sure Xavi is on the left side and generally that gives us more options to get control on that side and utilize our advantage.

Our backline is resistant to press and even Kohler has proven to be a very good defender to keep the ball moving and distribute it from the back, despite being a stopper, whilst players like Chumpitaz and Brehme are well accustomed to get the ball moving and very good in transitions.

 

[Himannv]

Voted for Beam since I really like that team. Confused by the Atalanta comparison though as they operate differently to what seems to be described here.

My initial plan was to build a Gasperini team actually. Unfortunately I missed out on Zico, Krol, and Bergomi and that idea died early on. Went with the magic square after that. All these darn restrictions keep getting in my way.

 

[Jim Beam]

In other words - the wing backs will drop back and your press comes from the center (Law/Eto'o/Iniesta/Xavi)?

No, it is again in the tactics. Press must be done collectively. Since it is pretty attacking formation (another myth that it can't be) as wingbacks are higher up and press along with the center core. I agree, you must press as a collective.

 

[Jim Beam]

Voted for Beam since I really like that team. Confused by the Atalanta comparison though as they operate differently to what seems to be described here.

My initial plan was to build a Gasperini team actually. Unfortunately I missed out on Zico, Krol, and Bergomi and that idea died early on. Went with the magic square after that. All these darn restrictions keep getting in my way.

It has some glaring similarities in terms of positional interchange and rotation in the attack. Also, high pressing system and pushing wingbacks so forward being another important attacking outlet. So, many of those basics are here.

It also has some differences, mostly in terms of Ilicic or number 10 role (where you wanted to play Zico) which is not existing here. Will expand on that a bit.

That is why I said there is an inspiration from there (as well as Southgate), but not an exact replica as the last time.

 

[Jim Beam]

The voting will be open for 48 hours because we have two managers who love to debate

I am way past the heavy ding-dong kind of debate. It is also a way healthier. Present your team as best as possible and that's it.

Will start with a 2 stories I found last night.
1. Did you know that Madrid fans call Xavi "gardener" or a "grass cutter"? Because the man always complained that the grass was higher if Madrid was able to somehow nullify Barcelona (not often at the time though)
2. Steve MacManaman once said that the first words he learned in Spanish was Roberto Carlos shouting "cover me!" as he ran past the midfield.

Anyway, I really like enigma team. Not much you can say there is wrong outthere and it has some of my favorite players. My decision to block defenders and RW allowing him to go stronger in the centre of the pitch was intentional based on my tactics. It just works both way, there is no one in football world who would disrupt Di Stefano way of playing more then Xavi and Iniesta with both their pressing game and their immaculate way of passing around. The man loved control (not freak control, controlling the match I mean) more then anything and it will be damn hard to get that here. You would naturally want the other team go through the middle based on how my team is set up. Of course, it is still a giant of a team and pretty brilliant, so the score can go either way.
So, don't agree with not blocking Di Stefano, maybe Cruyff or Zico more as I liked the way Di Stefano played to counter his main strengths. His connection with Puskas is brilliant, yes, and that "wild card" with him never wining a draft a very good and cheeky one to pull at this stage, but in terms of in game tactics I can see him getting frustrated.

Also, I would play Rijkaard at CB. No matter how you looked at it, that central defence is a bit weaker and I don't rate Chumpitaz extremely high. Not a bad fit for my forwards, but Rijkaard, Kohler combo was too good to pass since you have Cerezo to play at DM. It is not like Rijkaard will be dealing with GOAT number 10 here, so you need his presence more at the back imo. If anything there will be Iniesta, Law and Eto'o flying around him and I would have wanted him where it is a biggest pressure applied or in that backline. His ball playing abilities would be also most needed at the back and my pressing card wouldn't be so strong anymore.
Also, once more, Vogts, Kohler, Rijkaard, Brehme. Guess you missed the chance winning it and introducing Rijkaard at CB too which would be very interesting for a change. That is just my preference and think it would be way more suited.

On to my tactics. As I said it draws inspirations from those two tactics and I think the personnel with Eto'o, Law, midfield three, wingbacks, Krol and Baresi is nailed to execute it to perfection. The truth is that a bit of weakness is that right side, but that is not because of Bessonov as many will go for. It is only because Cannavaro wasn't that great on the ball. It limits the fluidity of the team a bit in the attack, like Voronin pulling down and him going at RB, have another great passer at the back and another defender who can comfortably push forward... When you count his defensive attributes it is still worth it for me, but that is a system weakness in the attacking sense. Considering there are 3 options opening for him once he gets the ball (DM, CM, WB not even counting sideways or back pass) am certain he will do fine, but nevertheless, a small weakness it is.
In the end, I think my team will score here, it is too dangerous not to based on everything. How much opponent can against that defence am not sure.

On to my little genius then...


They call him the brain of Barcelona and Spain team. "The biggest compliment that you can give the man is that both teams have never been the same after Xavi left" as one wise man said and it is damn true. Still, aside from being the brain and puppet master in his teams, it is better to use the term "brain and lungs" his teams considering the amount of pitch the little genius would cover.

2009/10 SEASON

LAST 16: (A) vs VfB Stuttgart

Distance Covered
Xavi: 12.22 km


QUARTER-FINALS: (A) vs Arsenal (both games)

Distance Covered
Xavi: 12.36 km
Xavi: 12.56 km

By far the most in Barcelona team while still averaging around 90% or more of pass completion.

2012/13
1. For the first time in Champions League history, a perfect 100 percent pass-completion rate was recorded last Wednesday. Xavi, with 96 passes reaching their intended target, achieved the feat against Paris St. Germain during FC Barcelona's quarter-final second leg.
He also became the first player to reach over 1,000 passes in this season's competition during the same game, in itself another absorbing statistic. No other top-level player is anywhere close to matching it.

2. A 95 percent pass accuracy across the season in La Liga...

3. Xavi is not afraid to get stuck in and his 83 percent success rate in the tackle compares very favourably with the rest of the team. Indeed, Messi and Busquets (65 percent), Gerard Pique (63 percent) and Iniesta (62 per cent) are well behind a player whom we don't normally associate with the tougher side of the game. Xavi is constantly on the move and has covered more ground this season than any of his teammates. His 79,666 metres covered just in the Champions League is more than David Villa and Alexis Sanchez combined for example.

Just an example that went on throughout the years. Among that group of press maniacs, he was the one who run the most in 9/10 games along with being able to control every part of the game.

No footballer has ever played such a decisive role in victory at three major international tournaments, or defined so clearly the dominant club team of the age.
Xavi has won 25 major trophies, made more than 180 assists for more than 50 team-mates at Barcelona, and has over the last six years passed the ball more than anybody else, run more than anybody else, and basically played more football than any other human being anywhere.​

In any case, one thing is certain with a passage of time in my humble opinion. If people still continue to play this shit game in 20 years time, that future P&G draft version will have this little genius at around 200 value and quite deservingly so.

Will add more about Law and his role when I find time.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

You can turn it around and say if you want to counter Di Stefano strengths Xaviesta is the worst possible duo.

Yea, that is definitely a fair point.

But I think the impact on Xaviesta would be a lot more with Rijkaard already in place as well and the fact that Di Stefano's teams themselves werent exactly known to be possession dependent to impact games.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yea, that is definitely a fair point.

But I think the impact on Xaviesta would be a lot more with Rijkaard already in place as well and the fact that Di Stefano's teams themselves werent exactly known to be possession dependent to impact games.

Purely looking at the way Di Stefano played.

I personally think Di Stefano wouldn't enjoy playing against a possession based team.

You either chase him all night trying to win the ball back or you try to hold as much of it yourselves and starve him off the ball which would annoy him I assume.

I'd choose the latter.

And this is still possession based by my metrics. I know who would get more annoyed here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Purely looking at the way Di Stefano played.

And this is still possession based by my metrics. I know who would get more annoyed here.

Which is why I said its definitely a fair point? Up for debate which way one thinks the impact would be more.

Rijkaard's presence seemed immense to me here with Di Stefano which is what made me say the impact on Xaviesta would be more.

 

[Enigma_87]

Purely looking at the way Di Stefano played.



And this is still possession based by my metrics. I know who would get more annoyed here.

Di Stefano and Cruyff loved control, but they played in direct teams, not possession based ones by the sake of it or by the means of starving the opposition off the ball, so I don't think they will get frustrated easily. Naturally they got the possession stats, imposing over the other teams, considering the quality of the teams and individuals that was brought to the table, but ideally they would love transitions and opportunities to convert defence into attack. Di Stefano's game was based on solving conundrums like that and here he has a supporting cast that has the motor and will to win to follow his lead, without standing in the way.

Besides, the midfield Xaviesta are facing here is greater than any real life example, especially when you add Rijkaard to the equation.

I didn't want to put Rijkaard at CB for example, despite having Cerezo in the team for the simple reason it gives us more control in the proceedings in the middle of the park, Chumpitaz ball playing qualities and of course Chumpitaz being a better fit to a nippy, fast forward like Eto'o. Chumpitaz weakness in terms of aerial ability is unlikely to be exploited here, making him a good fit both in terms of press resistance and also handling Eto'o.

As it has been already mentioned it goes both ways and I can see also Xaviesta being frustrated facing a midfield of Rijkaard, WvH, Di Stefano, alongside two total footballers in Kalle and Rensenbrink harassing the defenders and also pulling their weight on the pitch in the defensive phase.

Barca's dominance also relied on the higher line, and defending deeper when we break the press is not something Xavi/Iniesta would relish, especially considering the sheer physicality of WvH and Rijkaard when pushed inside your own half.

On a side note I know it has been mentioned in previous games, but on set pieces - Rijkaard, Kohler, van Hanegem, Kalle - present a significant goal threat, whilst only Voronin and Krol are around 6ft.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think Engima's attack will end up somewhat lopsided on the left. Di Stefano liked to drift left and then you have the attacking full-back on that side too. On the right you have a right forward rather than a winger with a balanced full-back. It worked better in the previous game with Kopa as he was more comfortable drifting right.

Really like Jim's side, Law and Eto'o will be a real handful being supplied by Xaviesta and the wing-backs. Close but gone with Jim

 

[Jim Beam]

Besides, the midfield Xaviesta are facing here is greater than any real life example, especially when you add Rijkaard to the equation.

Well, they could only beat what is in front of them. Considering they dismantled absolutely everything and imposed their will I can only assume they would do the same. Based on the way Di Stefano played I can see him doing quite of adjustment and getting frustrated (naturally, you will feel the opposite)

Di Stefano's game was based on solving conundrums like that and here he has a supporting cast that has the motor and will to win to follow his lead, without standing in the way.

Di Stefano never had problems with supporting cast, that is the kind of lame criticism that got him in this position, so I would not go on about it.

On a side note I know it has been mentioned in previous games, but on set pieces - Rijkaard, Kohler, van Hanegem, Kalle - present a significant goal threat, whilst only Voronin and Krol are around 6ft.

And the arieal threat to sealed it. How no one just wasn't able to bomb those Barcelona midgets is beyond me. Kalle in, but Cannavaro whom Klose couldn't beat in the air isn't? You don't even have that much tall players to bang on that drum?

Barca's dominance also relied on the higher line, and defending deeper when we break the press is not something Xavi/Iniesta would relish, especially considering the sheer physicality of WvH and Rijkaard when pushed inside your own half.

The whole point is to get them out of the comfort zone a bit. The interchanging, positional change, high press, possession based all stay, but since it is not Barcelona tactics they won't be able to do it? You, on the other way, are deep in the comfort zone from the round 1 despite 4-2-3-1 having significant weaknesses (like every other formation) and without any thought how the other team will line up.
"Look boys, the ball, Puskas, Di Stefano, Kalle, etc..."

Anyway, I would go after other personnel in your place. Xaviesta are golden here imo.

Also, more interested about talking tactics and collective approach here, less about hyperbole.

 

[Himannv]

It has some glaring similarities in terms of positional interchange and rotation in the attack. Also, high pressing system and pushing wingbacks so forward being another important attacking outlet. So, many of those basics are here.

It also has some differences, mostly in terms of Ilicic or number 10 role (where you wanted to play Zico) which is not existing here. Will expand on that a bit.

That is why I said there is an inspiration from there (as well as Southgate), but not an exact replica as the last time.

I think in the offensive phase of a Gasperini team you'd typically highlight the role of the wide CBs as the main proponents of the attack. Let's say when Krol has the ball, the LWB, LCM, and LWF sort of form a diamond with Krol as it's base that eventually becomes a very top heavy diamond if you will. That makes perfect sense in a 3-4-1-2 or even a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 as they sometimes play that way. However, it's not quite as clear how this tactic would work in a 3-5-2 with Xaviesta. Are they the ones who keep that diamond attacking shape or does Voronin get involved somehow? Also, the positional rotation aspect of a Gasperini team is a little bit at odds with how Xaviesta normally operate.

In the defensive phase, I think you have the pressing tactics done right. The only difference is that Atalanta sort of stay man-to-man for most part and don't think too much about the structure. As a result they leave crazy amount of space for counters if you can somehow beat the press. I think you play it a bit safer than they do, which is logical of course, so that's nicely done I think.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well, they could only beat what is in front of them. Considering they dismantled absolutely everything and imposed their will I can only assume they would do the same. Based on the way Di Stefano played I can see him doing quite of adjustment and getting frustrated (naturally, you will feel the opposite)

I guess we can agree to disagree then. Di Stefano's Real dismantled everything they had in their path and it coincided with him, even without the supporting cast of Kopa and Puskas who came after. He played in different teams and managed to keep the same dominance for about a decade.Especially considering the fact he came to a team that hasn't won the championship in 20 years and generally build what Real is today. Faced different teams and different setups and came out on top. It goes both ways as I said and I can see Xaviesta also becoming frustrated on the flip side.

Di Stefano never had problems with supporting cast, that is the kind of lame criticism that got him in this position, so I would not go on about it.

My point was that this team is something he'd enjoy playing alongside and goes to his strengths. Kalle and Rensenbrink movement and of course the proven link with Puskas is as good as it gets in order to create a stage for him to run the game for our team and he has the defensive base to count on when we're off the ball.

And the arieal threat to sealed it. How no one just wasn't able to bomb those Barcelona midgets is beyond me. Kalle in, but Cannavaro whom Klose couldn't beat in the air isn't? You don't even have that much tall players to bang on that drum?

Barcelona limits the opposition chances and their time on the ball. They also limit those set pieces opportunities with their high line and press all over the place under Pep. Either way it's not our main strength and focal point of the attack, but yes - to me it's an advantage worth mentioning.

The whole point is to get them out of the comfort zone a bit. The interchanging, positional change, high press, possession based all stay, but since it is not Barcelona tactics they won't be able to do it? You, on the other way, are deep in the comfort zone from the round 1 despite 4-2-3-1 having significant weaknesses (like every other formation) and without any thought how the other team will line up.
"Look boys, the ball, Puskas, Di Stefano, Kalle, etc..."

Anyway, I would go after other personnel in your place. Xaviesta are golden here imo.

Also, more interested about talking tactics and collective approach here, less about hyperbole.

I didn't really say that. They have been able to work in different formations for Spain. The point is however how this high press will be executed and what the other team has in terms of quality to break the press and move the ball up. For example if we move the ball wide to Brehme and you have Xavi pressing on the side it's easier for us to find gaps in the middle if we break the press, compared to the winger pushing up and your midfield keeping shape.

Still maintain that your right flank looks like a good opportunity to attack and a very viable route to goal with Brehme and Rensenbrink operating on the side against Bessonov and Cannavaro forced to defend wide.

I don't really have criticism to your team in terms of won't be able to function or can't pull it off, I like your team and especially all the permutations you have done since R1, but naturally I'd like my team more and believe we have the tools to create advantage and nick the win. Of course your team is also full of some favorite players of mine who are very versatile and can perform multiple functions on the pitch and naturally can't say anything bad about the whole plan on the table

And BTW it has always been 4-3-3(considering Rijkaard) and never 4-2-3-1

 

[Jim Beam]

I think in the offensive phase of a Gasperini team you'd typically highlight the role of the wide CBs as the main proponents of the attack. Let's say when Krol has the ball, the LWB, LCM, and LWF sort of form a diamond with Krol as it's base that eventually becomes a very top heavy diamond if you will. That makes perfect sense in a 3-4-1-2 or even a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 as they sometimes play that way. However, it's not quite as clear how this tactic would work in a 3-5-2 with Xaviesta. Are they the ones who keep that diamond attacking shape or does Voronin get involved somehow? Also, the positional rotation aspect of a Gasperini team is a little bit at odds with how Xaviesta normally operate.

In the defensive phase, I think you have the pressing tactics done right. The only difference is that Atalanta sort of stay man-to-man for most part and don't think too much about the structure. As a result they leave crazy amount of space for counters if you can somehow beat the press. I think you play it a bit safer than they do, which is logical of course, so that's nicely done I think.

Cheers, will answer you once I come home.

I don't really have criticism to your team in terms of won't be able to function or can't pull it off, I like your team and especially all the permutations you have done since R1, but naturally I'd like my team more and believe we have the tools to create advantage and nick the win. Of course your team is also full of some favorite players of mine who are very versatile and can perform multiple functions on the pitch and naturally can't say anything bad about the whole plan on the table

And BTW it has always been 4-3-3(considering Rijkaard) and never 4-2-3-1

Fair enough! Still think it is more of a 4-2-3-1, but that is absolutely irrelavent really. Like your team also, few minor remarks that I already mentioned, so won't go in circles.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Enigma_87 @Jim Beam

The game would end after the usual 24 hours. I should be around at that time, so will make sure to close it then with the final score.

 

[Jim Beam]

I think in the offensive phase of a Gasperini team you'd typically highlight the role of the wide CBs as the main proponents of the attack. Let's say when Krol has the ball, the LWB, LCM, and LWF sort of form a diamond with Krol as it's base that eventually becomes a very top heavy diamond if you will. That makes perfect sense in a 3-4-1-2 or even a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 as they sometimes play that way. However, it's not quite as clear how this tactic would work in a 3-5-2 with Xaviesta. Are they the ones who keep that diamond attacking shape or does Voronin get involved somehow? Also, the positional rotation aspect of a Gasperini team is a little bit at odds with how Xaviesta normally operate.

In the defensive phase, I think you have the pressing tactics done right. The only difference is that Atalanta sort of stay man-to-man for most part and don't think too much about the structure. As a result they leave crazy amount of space for counters if you can somehow beat the press. I think you play it a bit safer than they do, which is logical of course, so that's nicely done I think.

The build up phase is definitely different. While Atalanta uses wide area and half spaces in the build up and then hits you through the opening gaps in the middle, this team will naturally build more through the center allowing Xavi and Iniesta to have more control since it would be insane to do otherwise. CB's are still very important, but attack is much more centrally oriented.

Once in the attacking phase, that interchanging of positions between forwards, wingbacks and midfielders come into motion even setting team at times in a 3-2-1-4 as they do. You are right, though, in terms of the main difference in how Atalanta finds open space and how this team would, considering their midfielders often go extremely wide while here they will mostly stay in the middle dictating the game and attack centrally. The task of providing width will be on wingbacks and forwards. The main principles in terms of interchanging, how the wingbacks operate and how two forwards act are somewhat similar while the defensive shape is practically the same, but much more solid imo.
The main idea in terms of building and finding those gaps is different and more in line what Southgate wanted to do in WC. However, he couldn't do shit against an opponent of a higher quality as England 2 advanced CM were devoid of any creativity and couldn't hold the ball to save their life. Also, Denis Law as that live wire upfront is more Sterling then anything else in this team linking up with midfield and at the same time running at opposition CB's. Both teams do attack you with 6 players at times, wingbacks go extremely wide and forwards constantly interchange. It is damn risky if the team go through the initial press as it is man-marked basically, but it is also incredibly draining and hard to keep up for the opponent.

Hopefully, you stick and build that Atalanta version you had in mind as they are quite fascinating. As I said, as opposed to the last round, this wouldn't be a replica, more an inspiration taking some of its elements.

 

[Jim Beam]

And BTW it has always been 4-3-3(considering Rijkaard) and never 4-2-3-1

Just a second. So, it is...

Vogts - Kohler - Chumpitaz - Brehme
Rijkaard
Di Stefano - Van Hanegem
Rummenigge - Puskas - Rensenbrink
​

Something like this then, just on the left side?

 

[Jim Beam]

Wanted to make another post about Denis Law, but this will do. Worth a read and not because of this match.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cla...e-greatest-forward-in-uniteds-history.430924/

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers for running it @GodShaveTheQueen !

Great run once again @Jim Beam ! Excellent job in terms of managing to successfully create not just one but couple of top sides in the course of the same draft.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thanks for running and receiving my early drunk massages @GodShaveTheQueen. Enjoyed building this one and Xavi is now better than Pele and Maradona combined without any doubt in my mind.

Well played and thoroughly deserved @Enigma_87 with another monster team and with an added bonus of getting Di Stefano over the line.

Shiny happy people...♫ (this is how the draft ends when Scrappy is running it)

 

[Gio]

Well played @Enigma_87. Formidable team there especially given the more restricted upgrades.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers, @Gio !

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Well played @Enigma_87 ! Got to admit that this was a rare draft where I hadn't particularly warmed to your team from the outset, then realised that the finished product was just incredible. Fair play for finally getting Di Stefano over the line!

 

[Enigma_87]

Well played @Enigma_87 ! Got to admit that this was a rare draft where I hadn't particularly warmed to your team from the outset, then realised that the finished product was just incredible. Fair play for finally getting Di Stefano over the line!

TBH, after I didn't land many of my first picks in the draft, had to make probably 5-6 picks more than anyone else I had some issues with the outset either and had to change my approach midway couple of times.

As I mentioned in my brief I wanted to do a German based theme(after I couldn't get Cristiano/Pele) in defence(perhaps even create their best one), but generally couldn't pull off some of my targets.

I didn't plan on building around Di Stefano(even with landing Puskas), and I expected Jim to block him too so thought about either Cruyff / Cristiano might sneak for the final pick / team, but as you mentioned probably the final team is something that got me to warm up with the final idea and the ability to be the first one to win with Di Stefano

All in all pretty happy with the product and to me looks like a team that is very close to an ideal one with Di Stefano in the center of it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

All in all pretty happy with the product and to me looks like a team that is very close to an ideal one with Di Stefano in the center of it.

Not to take any plaudits away from you, but I wouldn't say its close to ideal for a Di Stefano team.

Biggest miss would be the lack of presence of a genuine orthodox winger. You want someone to pull people wide so Di Stefano has more space and lesser markers.

Van Hanegem again as someone pointed out is not ideal.

Just nitpicking of course. Kind of jealous that I wasn't the one to get Di Stefano his first draft win, so you can understand.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not to take any plaudits away from you, but I wouldn't say its close to ideal for a Di Stefano team.

Biggest miss would be the lack of presence of a genuine orthodox winger. You want someone to pull people wide so Di Stefano has more space and lesser markers.

Van Hanegem again as someone pointed out is not ideal.

Just nitpicking of course. Kind of jealous that I wasn't the one to get Di Stefano his first draft win, so you can understand.

Yeah, don't mind nitpicking at all. I didn't have the idea to build around him from the off at all, so naturally it would have 2-3 odd pieces, but generally I really like the end result and maybe as you said only van Hanegem is the one that stands out a bit. And that is not because of the qualities, as I like him in this set up - being able to drop deep, offer an additional playmaking option and also not being a dominant figure so that he can stand in AdS way.

Yes you can pretty much replace van Hanegem and Chumpitaz with shinier names and in van Hanegem's place maybe even a better fit - Neeskens, Falcao, Keane, maybe Schweiny or Davids, but apart from that the rest of the names are IMO very close to his ideal environment.

In a modern tactics I like Di Stefano in a 4-3-3 (tried to build around him in the past as an attacking #8) as he would be a focal point of the team, be involved in both phases and he's not a typical #10 or a false 9- he's much more than that and more complete than that. I agree with your idea of having wide players pulling his markers, but for example Gento wasn't really a traditional line hugging winger either and Rensenbrink can fill that wide forward role, especially when you have someone like Brehme on the overlap.

On the right - Vogts and Kalle are options that I like because Vogts is underrated going forward and Kalle is someone who AdS would IMO love to play alongside with what he brings to the table and especially his movement.

Puskas as a complete forward is given of course, considering his link up with Di Stefano.

Apart from WvH, who do you reckon you would replace in a 4-3-3 and you see Di Stefano in different role?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

but for example Gento wasn't really a traditional line hugging winger either and Rensenbrink can fill that wide forward role

I think the goal scoring numbers of Gento lead to that slightly inaccurate conclusion. He played in an attacking era and in a uber attacking team.

His style of play was pretty much that of a touch line hugging winger.

On the right - Vogts and Kalle are options that I like because Vogts is underrated going forward and Kalle is someone who AdS would IMO love to play alongside with what he brings to the table and especially his movement.

Yea, that is fair. I prefer my Di Stefano teams to have 1 traditional winger and 1 wing forward.

Apart from WvH, who do you reckon you would replace in a 4-3-3 and you see Di Stefano in different role?

I think everything else is just spot on except Van Hanegem and Rensenbrink

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Puskas as a complete forward is given of course, considering his link up with Di Stefano.

I recently watched a documentary on Real Madrid's loss against Guttmann's Benfica in the 1962 European Cup final and it gives a great insight into why Di Stefano and Puskas was such a threatening pair.

And of course why Bela Guttmann was a great tactical master.

The lethal Puskas scored a 1st half hat trick and yet it wasn't he who was the hero. It was all Di Stefano who was dropping deep and taking the ball everywhere he found space.

All he had to do was find Puskas at every chance he got and the Hungarian converted them for fun.

Guttmann's first half strategy was to let Di Stefano drop deep and defend tightly against the forwards, but it just wouldn't work as Di Stefano was too good.

So going into the second half, he changed the strategy of containing the forwards and put a couple of man markers on Di Stefano. And it worked like an absolute charm.

They were down 2-3 at half time and went on to win 5-3 without conceding any second half goals. Puskas notably had a frustrating second half without any supply.

This is one of the reasons I felt Di Stefano would impact Xaviesta a lot more than the other way around.

With people like Di Stefano or Cruyff, you need markers. Defending using a system against them is very tough.

 

[Jim Beam]

Man marking in modern game. Blimey.