UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[sun_tzu]

Thanks for the pointer. I have read it. The principles mentioned are all very well served by a Norway style deal. That's what it would be. It says a UK Customs Union, same rules for N Ireland (and Scotland), preserving the union, but it does not at all preclude achieving this by simply staying in the EU's one.

Close alignment with the single market? Stay in it. Pay the fees as it makes sense to do. Brexit in name only. Actually perfectly sensible.

If you think it says something else I would suggest you are misreading the very careful wording of it.

A credible leave option
Bringing the country together...

 

[EwanI Ted]

A credible leave option
Bringing the country together...

Well quite. Any deal Labour comes up with will struggle for credibility, simply because of Corbyn, but a deal that involves staying in the single market would cause uproar at this point in time.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That's not their policy. The manifesto explicitly rules out Johnson's deal (page 90).

Apply a little common sense. Obviously I don’t mean the same exact document.

If cosmetic changes are made as the EU won’t budge on anything meaningful, it’s still the same deal.

Boris’ deal is Labour’s baseline.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well quite. Any deal Labour comes up with will struggle for credibility, simply because of Corbyn, but a deal that involves staying in the single market would cause uproar at this point in time.

Single market
Customs Union
Even being in the EEA will cede some sovereignty to Europe.

It will fail to realise any of the key factors that Brexiteers wanted to leave for and will be seen a the great Brexit swindle by Farage etc. I've said for a while that it will do little to close the issue and the spectre of Brexit will continue to haunt the country for years to come. I even think that you'd end up with an opposition defined by Brexit at their core.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Apply a little common sense. Obviously I don’t mean the same exact document.

If cosmetic changes are made as the EU won’t budge on anything meaningful, it’s still the same deal.

Boris’ deal is Labour’s baseline.

I've no idea how you can suggest this when the manifesto clearly states it isn't.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Single market
Customs Union
Even being in the EEA will cede some sovereignty to Europe.

It will fail to realise any of the key factors that Brexiteers wanted to leave for and will be seen a the great Brexit swindle by Farage etc. I've said for a while that it will do little to close the issue and the spectre of Brexit will continue to haunt the country for years to come. I even think that you'd end up with an opposition defined by Brexit at their core.

I've felt for a while that Brexit won't be settled at the ballot box. This has become a battle of public opinion, and it'll be settled when one point of view becomes the consensus. Voting will then follow. That's why I've been so let down by Labour perpetuating what is in my view a lie, that there's a deal out there that's better than being in the EU. In doing so, they've helped validate the Leave movement.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

BBC 5Live following Neil's lead and focusing on mistrust. So far it's been laying into the Tories and Johnson and so have all of the callers. It sounds like RedCafe Radio, it's great!

 

[Drifter]

BBC's Andrew Neil issues challenge for Boris Johnson to commit to interview

 

[CassiusClaymore]

BBC's Andrew Neil issues challenge for Boris Johnson to commit to interview

I know he won't go on but he might as well now he knows what all the questions will be.

 

[villain]

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This is appalling.
Apparently she's a Governor at a school for kids with learning disabilities too.

 

[sincher]

Single market
Customs Union
Even being in the EEA will cede some sovereignty to Europe.

It will fail to realise any of the key factors that Brexiteers wanted to leave for and will be seen a the great Brexit swindle by Farage etc. I've said for a while that it will do little to close the issue and the spectre of Brexit will continue to haunt the country for years to come. I even think that you'd end up with an opposition defined by Brexit at their core.

The great Brexit swindle was committed by Farage etc.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The great Brexit swindle was committed by Farage etc.

That doesn't alter the fact of where we are now.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

@Pexbo think the below sums up how some of us feel about the Beeb at the minute.

https://paulbernal.wordpress.com/2019/12/04/the-bbcs-problems-are-no-conspiracy-theory/

The BBC’s problems are no conspiracy theory…

The BBC’s latest response to their challenges over their election coverage, in a piece in the Guardian by Fran Unsworth, their director of news and current affairs, has a very welcome headline:

“At the BBC, impartiality is precious. We will protect it”

Fran, and the BBC, are right that their impartiality is precious – as well as being required by law – but by dismissing those who are challenging them as conspiracy theorists they are doing the opposite of protecting it. They’re helping to ensure its demise.

Not a conspiracy theory

The first and most important thing to say is that very few people – and no-one serious – is suggesting there is any kind of conspiracy going on here. To suggest that they are is a classic straw man argument. Conspiracy theories are easily dismissed, and often make little sense when analysed. Of course it’s impossible to get a large number of independent minded journalists and individual editors to follow a conspiracy. We know that very well – but it’s absolutely not what the BBC is being accused of, so attacking it and dismissing it bears no relationship to the real problem – or real problems, because there are a number of connected problems involved here.

The problems with the BBC are qualitatively different. Unconscious or subconscious bias. A tendency to groupthink. Subservience to authority. High-handedness to the rest of us. This, coupled with a kind of naïveté and misunderstanding of the new media environment, is what produces the problems that we see with the BBC – and which the BBC either don’t see or don’t want to see or address.

Making mistakes

Everyone makes mistakes – and though many might take issue with Fran Unsworth’s description of ‘a couple of editorial mistakes’ as perhaps something of an underestimate – and no-one expects all mistakes to be avoided. The big questions, though, are what kind of mistakes are made, how they are corrected and avoided in the future, and what kind of apologies are made for them. That’s where the question of unconscious or subconscious bias comes in. The two mistakes Fran Unsworth is presumably referring to are using the wrong clip for Boris Johnson at the Cenotaph and editing out the laughter that followed his answer about trust in the Question Time debate, but there are a number of others. The most noticeable thing about them, however, is not the individual errors, but that they all lean in the same direction. All tend to favour Boris Johnson. That’s where the question of bias comes in. Not a conspiracy theory that the mistakes are made deliberately, under some kind of orders, but that they tend to follow the subconscious bias.

Subservience to authority

This is closely related to the accusation – made in particular by Peter Oborne – that the BBC is too servile to the Prime Minister’s Office. Again, this isn’t a conspiracy theory, but an observation, and certainly not one restricted to the BBC. Robert Peston fits the profile every bit as much as Laura Kuenssberg, for example. This is nothing new for the BBC, however, as the role of being a state broadcaster has consequences, but it has a particular significance in a time when those in authority – and those in Number 10 in particular – are notably less trustworthy than in the past.

Being willing to make compromises in order to get access is normal journalistic practice, but there are balances to be found and the main accusation is that the balance has been tipped too far. When Number 10 is restricting other media – bans on Channel 4 News and on the Daily Mirror for example – it should ring alarm bells in the minds of any journalists. When the criticisms of Peter Oborne are taken into account, those alarm bells should be listened to even more carefully. Denying that it’s even possible that the balance may have been missed, rather than critical self-examination, is a recipe for disaster.

Fran Unsworth assures us that the BBC are not ‘cowed or unconfident’. I hope she’s right, but the evidence does not really support her. The other ‘mistake’ – failing to secure a date for an Andrew Neil interview with Boris Johnson whilst telling (or at the very least hinting) to the other leaders that they had – does not look at all good. Acquiescing to Johnson’s subsequent request to get the Sunday morning chat with Andrew Marr rather than the evening grilling by Neil makes it look even worse. A strong, ‘uncowed’ BBC would not have let either of those things happen.

Understanding the new media

Another key aspect of the current political climate – and again, the current occupants of Number 10 are critical here – is that the relationship between the old and the new media is vitally important. It is very easy for the ‘old media’ to get ‘played’ by skilful operators of the new media. Selectively RTing poorly phrased and incomplete tweets by BBC journalists, taking them out of context and not mentioning critiques that had been put in separate tweets is just one example. Using clips from interviews similarly selectively or even editing them to create an effect (making Keir Starmer pause and look as though he didn’t answer a question that he did, or editing out the laughter that followed Boris Johnson’s answer on trust) is pretty standard practice now – and the BBC should be aware of that.

There are things that the BBC journalists could do to slow down this manipulation – including the criticism within the tweet rather than separately. “Mr Johnson again mentioned the 50,000 new nurses” in a tweet leaves it open to magnification without criticism, “Mr Johnson again claimed the debunked number of 50,000 new nurses” does not. Taking care over words more: say that a politician ‘says’ or ‘claims’ rather than ‘reveals’ something if they thing they are claiming is dubious at least. Being cynical in the face of people with a track record of dishonesty isn’t being unfair, it’s being a proper journalist.

High-handedness to critics

The responses to criticism – and Fran Unsworth’s is just the latest of many – have been perhaps the most disappointing of all. Anyone even slightly criticising the BBC is dismissed as a conspiracy theorist, fobbed off with straw man arguments or worse. Huw Edwards suggested Peter Oborne looked ‘crackers’ for suggesting the clipped version of Boris Johnson’s response on trust had been edited – and even when the BBC eventually admitted it had been edited there has been no apology from Edwards.

This is pretty much the definition of gaslighting – and the BBC should know this and should find a much, much better way.

Trusting the BBC

Right now, we need the BBC to be working well. We need to be able to trust the BBC – and the BBC needs us to trust them. Calling its critics conspiracy theorists and miscasting their criticism as ‘crackers’ is pretty much guaranteed to damage that trust. It is already close to breaking point. Unless the BBC starts to understand this – and to openly acknowledge it, because I am quite sure there are a fair number of journalists and others in the BBC who are quite aware of the problems – that trust will be gone. The BBC needs to understand how it appears to others.

The dramatic cartoon in the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant, showing Boris Johnson raping Britain whilst Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees-Mogg et al hold her down, has the BBC pushing away the crowd saying the Dutch equivalent of ‘move along, nothing to see here’. This should really give the BBC pause for thought. What role are they taking? How do they want to be remembered? When the rest of the world can see it but the BBC themselves can’t, things have got very bad. This may be the BBC’s last chance. I hope it takes it.

 

[sincher]

That doesn't alter the fact of where we are now.

Yes you are right. The issue has become toxic.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

And there you have it...

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[esmufc07]

And there you have it...

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Absolute joke of a man.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Absolute joke of a man.

Best part of it is the hint that they should come along and just be allowed to lie unchecked. That's not an interview, it's a platform for propaganda.

@ "informing the public". Wankers.

 

[EwanI Ted]

And there you have it...

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The best lies are hidden behind truths. Those kind of interviews are certainly tiresome, but that’s not why he’s chickening out.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Staying in the single market is aligning with it. Staying in the customs union provides a UK customs union. The words have been chosen carefully I agree... but the deal will clearly be like Norway.

I agree with you that it wouldn't be voted for, and in my opinion is not sensible either because it is clearly better just to stay a member, but it still makes more sense than either May or Johnson's deal. The former is similar but gives up many advantages of the EU while giving no scope for any other trade deals, not that we would get good ones anyway, and the latter will lead to the breakup of the Union and to serious issues in Ireland. And quite possibly No Deal with its accompanied needless job losses and severe economic impact for many years.

I don't understand your point about Norway though. Not sure you do either tbh.

I don't think you understand the difference between UK customs union and an EU customs union and nor does Corbyn or their faithful followers. Norway has no customs union and therefore there is a hard border ie a hard border between the UK and Ireland.
If the UK is in the customs union they cannot do their own trade deals, they cannot not have limits on the four freedoms if they are in the single market. Aligniment is not being in the single market, then we can start getting a bit more technical with the ECJ and membership of various other agencies Corbyn wants to stay part of.

My point about Norway is that if the UK leave the EU and want to remain in the single market they would have to join EFTA which would be subject to acceptance of the members of EFTA such as Norway who don't seem that keen.

I think I might actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to the EU but then I have not yet attended the Labour brainwashing academy.

 

[esmufc07]

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Boris caught lying....again. Fully expect Laura to do her thing.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

And there you have it...

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"We've decided we know what's best for everyone therefore will not take part in something that will require us to answer questions we don't want to. Instead we will personally decide what the public must or must not know." would have been simpler.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Apply a little common sense. Obviously I don’t mean the same exact document.

If cosmetic changes are made as the EU won’t budge on anything meaningful, it’s still the same deal.

Boris’ deal is Labour’s baseline.

Boris' deal has been ripped up, Corbyn said so, quick - glue the pieces back together.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

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Boris caught lying....again. Fully expect Laura to do her thing.

Wow, Labour have just realised this - this was pointed out at the time - it's like living in an alternative universe.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

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Boris caught lying....again. Fully expect Laura to do her thing.

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Laura is an enigma - and incredibly talented journalist who can write some properly biased shite in her Twitter but then write something like this below which lays into everyone and shows her abilities and competence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50681557

 

[Smores]

Good old Laura pulling the nothing to see here Republican tactic. Not the first time she's done it this election.

 

[MrPooni]

And there you have it...

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Trumpian politics are here to stay.

 

[RedSky]

And there you have it...

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It's going to make my Christmas very depressing when he still wins. Unfortunately the Tories are using Trump tactics because they know it works.

 

[Smores]

Single market
Customs Union
Even being in the EEA will cede some sovereignty to Europe.

It will fail to realise any of the key factors that Brexiteers wanted to leave for and will be seen a the great Brexit swindle by Farage etc. I've said for a while that it will do little to close the issue and the spectre of Brexit will continue to haunt the country for years to come. I even think that you'd end up with an opposition defined by Brexit at their core.

I used to think this but with the way things have gone i reckon if we managed to remain now with a second ref vote thats brexit done for the foreseeable.

Can you imagine any party actually standing on a platform of lets try brexit again? People are fed up with it

 

[CassiusClaymore]

It's going to make my Christmas very depressing when he still wins. Unfortunately the Tories are using Trump tactics because they know it works.

Same mate. Need a xmas miracle to stop this shower. And I can see myself becoming very bitter if things go tits up as expected in the 5 years after. Certainly won't be wasting any energy on people that voted for it all.

 

[berbatrick]

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Laura is an enigma - and incredibly talented journalist who can write some properly biased shite in her Twitter but then write something like this below which lays into everyone and shows her abilities and competence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50681557

If these revelations are on expected lines, shouldn't she have been treating every syllable from a Tory mouth as a lie? Just by default. if she and all the other smart people know this is a lie, why hasn't it every coloured any of their interactions with the office of the pm or his party?

 

[RedSky]

Same mate. Need a xmas miracle to stop this shower. And I can see myself becoming very bitter if things go tits up as expected in the 5 years after. Certainly won't be wasting any energy on people that voted for it all.

It's going to lead to even more bitterness in the country, the divide seems to be expanding not narrowing.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Can you imagine any party actually standing on a platform of lets try brexit again? People are fed up with it

I can see it yes. They'd stand on a platform of hard Brexit too.

 

[RedSky]

If these revelations are on expected lines, shouldn't she have been treating every syllable from a Tory mouth as a lie? Just by default. if she and all the other smart people know this is a lie, why hasn't it every coloured any of their interactions with the office of the pm or his party?

Ah come on. Everyone and their dog knows Laura is extremely biased and in favour of the Tories. She doesn't even attempt to hide it.

 

[Maticmaker]

Boris and his empty chair!

"He who runs away lives to fight another day, he who stays and stands his ground stands to get his clock knocked round"
...Old (Lancashire )saying!

Discretion is the better part of Valour, or so they say! Boris is, according to the polls way out in front, so why would he risk a 'grilling' from the ' Inquisitor General'?
Both Boris and Jeremy are 'marmite men', those who like them vote for them, those who don't won't and for the vast majority of the public who have no particular political leaning, but will still bother to vote, that will be the deciding factor.

Jeremy through his own 'grilling' with Neil simply confirmed for many people the 'baggage' he carries with him and it seems didn't even impress many of his acolytes. Boris has perhaps learned from his rivals experience and he (or perhaps Cummings) has skilfully used the question 'will he or wont' he' turn up for an interview with Andrew Neill, to eat up the exposure time available leading to the Election.

Whether you like him or not, its a smart move!

 

[Kaos]

Trumpian politics are here to stay.

Only if we allow them to stay. Unfortunately the Tories winning will only setting a worrying precedence where lies and shameless attempts to avoid public scrutiny become the norm.

 

[SteveJ]

Boris Johnson: “I’m in favour of having people of colour come to this country but I think we should have it democratically controlled.” He said a Conservative government would be able to control immigration “differently and better”.

 

[sun_tzu]

Boris and his empty chair!

"He who runs away lives to fight another day, he who stays and stands his ground stands to get his clock knocked round"
...Old (Lancashire )saying!

Discretion is the better part of Valour, or so they say! Boris is, according to the polls way out in front, so why would he risk a 'grilling' from the ' Inquisitor General'?
Both Boris and Jeremy are 'marmite men', those who like them vote for them, those who don't won't and for the vast majority of the public who have no particular political leaning, but will still bother to vote, that will be the deciding factor.

Jeremy through his own 'grilling' with Neil simply confirmed for many people the 'baggage' he carries with him and it seems didn't even impress many of his acolytes. Boris has perhaps learned from his rivals experience and he (or perhaps Cummings) has skilfully used the question 'will he or wont' he' turn up for an interview with Andrew Neill, to eat up the exposure time available leading to the Election.

Whether you like him or not, its a smart move!

Smart move... But certainly not one beneficial to the public discourse

He will probably show up for a kicking from Andrew Niel once he has passed his brexit bill

He will get slaughtered but by that point it's too late to matter

I genuinely believe there should be a cross party commission formed that sets out a debate and interview format that parties have to make their leaders available for... I think this should be done at the start of the new parliament so that by the time of the election there is no debate about debates ... The format is agreed and it's as Boris would say oven ready (to microwave at gas mark 4)

In this instance it's the right play from a spin / advice point of view to take the flack for not showing up Vs risking a car crash of an interview a few days before the election... But that option shouldn't exist as all this should have been agreed years ago

 

[ThierryHenry]

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Laura is an enigma - and incredibly talented journalist who can write some properly biased shite in her Twitter but then write something like this below which lays into everyone and shows her abilities and competence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50681557

Having been previously sceptical around claims of Laura K's bias, it's been hard not to notice in this election that there is a difference in how she responds to certain outlandish Labour and Conservative claims, and is clearly stricter in how she criticises the former.

Though on this point, she has been saying since Boris' deal was announced that it will result in checks on goods coming between NI and Great Britain, and she's completely right in what she's saying there. It seems strange to me that Labour are only just now pushing it as an issue - it's a clear lie from the PM, and indicative of how Brexit won't 'Get Done' after the election. This should have been part of their argument against the deal since it was announced, it's annoying how it hasn't been.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Smart move... But certainly not one beneficial to the public discourse

He will probably show up for a kicking from Andrew Niel once he has passed his brexit bill

He will get slaughtered but by that point it's too late to matter

I genuinely believe there should be a cross party commission formed that sets out a debate and interview format that parties have to make their leaders available for... I think this should be done at the start of the new parliament so that by the time of the election there is no debate about debates ... The format is agreed and it's as Boris would say oven ready (to microwave at gas mark 4)

In this instance it's the right play from a spin / advice point of view to take the flack for not showing up Vs risking a car crash of an interview a few days before the election... But that option shouldn't exist as all this should have been agreed years ago

Microwaves are electric pal.

 

[Jippy]

@SteveJ
'Differently and better' to what, the Tory government of the last nine years? But, no, Corbychev will open the floodgates etc...