United team building : Ten Hag season 23/24 Evaluation and main reasons behind the result. start on page.2

[LuckyScout78]

Side post to main thread and topic : United team building towards a proactive and dominating 433 football.



Topic :United team building towards proactive and dominating 433 football. Then Dani Olmo is a must buy. Post on page 2 | RedCafe.net



This side the topic, but still same thread : United team building. Ten Hag origin plan/A, but ended up with plan B. Back to origin plan A in the future?



I just want this post to be on the start. But it still relate to the “United team building topic “. Which include how the manager intention, his plans and decisions. All from the beginning and start of Ten Hag’s regime.



I think when United first hired and appointed Ten Hag. His first and origin plan, plan A was to build a United team that was going to play proactive attacking football. Not like plan B which he ended up with United.

And what and why did I think and believe that proactive and attacking football was Ten Hag origin and plan A?

He was planning to play proactive 433 Ajax and Dutch attacking football. Similar with Pep with City and Arteta with Arsenal 433.

There first sign of his intention to apply his origin plan A was. Ten Hag and Manchester United tried really hard to get Frenkie De Jong from Barcelona. But they couldn’t.

And what would De Jong add to United team and made Ten Hag plan A reality?

Frenkie De Jong was known for dropping deep to receive the ball and start most of team build up/attack. As a so call deep lying central midfield playmaker.

A nr.6 creative and dictating cm playmaker. Like this in a 433 total proactive football :

RCM/nr.8 – CM/nr.6 – LCM/nr.8 = RCM – De Jong – LCM. The middle one of the CM trio.

Later in the that same transfer window. If the rumour was right. That United and Ten Hag was trying to sign Adrien Rabiot too.

Then Ten Hag intention and plan A could ended up like this, a cm trio of :

Bruno – De Jong – Rabiot



Rabiot is and was best known for left foot box to box cm player. Operate on the left side of the deep lying cm playmaker. Then Bruno would ended up on the right side of De Jong.

And on paper. I think and believe that cm trio could really well too.

But like we know what were happened?

Ten Hag and United didn’t get both of De Jong and Rabiot. And as we walked towards that summer transfer window closing .

United and Ten Hag ending up getting Casemiro from Real Madrid. Who at that time I would rated him not at his peak = over his peak in his career.

And as we know Christian Eriksen on free, as the creative cm player. Not as the 6, but plan for Eriksen was nr.8



So with buying Casemiro and Eriksen. Here I think and believe Ten Hag has went from his origin plan/A, when he first signed for United and what United want from him.

From plan A proactive attacking football --- to plan B = Counter attacking and transition football. But to not misunderstand this with counter attacking football with Casemiro as DM/nr.6. This will and shall only apply against top teams like City, Liverpool and Arsenal. 3 teams that have play and gel together. Having a solid and strong structure. Will dominate against United and Ten Hag. And will push Ten Hag team to get deeper and play counter attack.

Nothing wrong with counter attack. But during that season. Without Eriksen on the pitch. Only with Casemiro + Fred/McTom. United do struggled to open up team with tight defend.

Because like above. Casemiro was known and his ability on the pitch was as a cm “destroyer” , break up and counter opponent attack and teams. Where he had 2 really creative, offensive and really good with the ball in Toni Kroos and Luke “Mozart “ Modric.

And with United, but without Eriksen and with Fred/McTom as his cm partners. You just can and demand Casemiro to become a top cm playmaker?

Why United with Ten Hag like Ole were struggling to open up tight defend and team who were parking the bus. Ole’s cm duo was Fred/McTom.

And Ten Hag did to apply 433 with Bruno – Casemiro – Eriksen in some matches in the start. It didn’t worked out. So he went to and applied 4231 as the main formation.

With Cas as nr.6 and Eriksen as the creative nr.8 playmaker. And Bruno in the free nr.10 CAM role behind the striker.



From that on. 433 and proacting football totally disappear from Ten Hag’s mind. Ten Hag was on the transition and plan B counter attack football track.

And more indications and clear signs of that were :

Ten Hag and United sign Mason Mount and Amrabat. 2 players that I would categorize as transition football and counter attacking player.

We all know that Amrabat was not know as a cm playmaker. Amrabat is a defensive cm player. Who was good with breaking up opponent teams attack. Special he was doing that role and job really well for Marokko. As theirs DM 6.

And Mason Mount was knowing for his really good high press and ball winning ability too.

So with those 2 signings it was clearly of plan to apply transition fast attacking football.

And if I wasn’t wrong. Ten Hag did said and mention that : “ United shall be the fastest transition team in the world “. He was clearly deep on his plan B and that counter attack track and road.



But the worst scenario for Ten Hag and co were. He didn’t get players to apply his plan A. And to play and make the plan B working really really too. Ten Hag didn’t have a solid and strong backline too. In others words Ten Hag didn’t had top players to get the most out of counter attack and transition football.

Signs of that were. Ten Hag tried to sell Harry Maguire. Because at that time he didn’t think Maguire suit his high back line, because of the high pressing football. So with Maguire case and Varane got injury here and there in the beginning of the season and Ten Hag only CB signing was Jonny Evans. A decent CB and long long over his peak time.

And with the injury of Kobbie Mainoo and Casemiro injury in the beginning of the season. And Mason Mount hard to find his best role in that cm partnership and later Mount got injury.

All those factors lead to that United and Ten Hag transition counter attack and high pressing were so easily to break down, run passed and trough. And opponent teams easily created and scoring goals.

So Ten Hag was on the a no man’s land. Went from his origin plan A and proactive football. Then the plan B didn’t help him and team much neither. Ten Hag didn’t had a rock solid back line with quick and solid CBs.

Because of playing with high pressing football with a high backline. Your team and backline need really quick CBs too. Because if you met and come up against really quick CFs and attacker. Then your team is really vulnerable for trough and long passes.

And those factors leads to United early champion league exit and poor league results. Beside many mistakes that lead to poor results.



+ So from now on and in the future. Ten Hag and his staff didn’t know much about Kobbie Mainoo when they were taking over the jobs. Do Ten Hag and united have a deep lying cm playmaker in Kobbie Mainoo?

Does Mainoo has what it require and demand to become a top dominate CM playmaker. To help United overcome City, Arsenal and Liverpool? To win the premier league?

First we have to analyze short what kind of CM player is Mainoo?

For me in short words description of Mainoo :

+ Mainoo is not a pure and top cm destroyer.

+ Mainoo is better and best with the ball then without the ball

+ Mainoo is more of a creative and offensive ball playing cm like Clarence Seedorf, rather than a Makelee or Kante of top ballwinning CM.



And from what we have seen of Mainoo. In not even full season with the first team and on the highest level. We do see and observed that Mainoo is a ball playing CM player. Composure on the ball, but could sometime speed the ball tempo and passes.

So with more times to get use the intensity, speed and the physical of the highest level of football.

I think Mainoo has what it require and demand as a top and dominate and deep lying CM playmaker nr.6. I think United and Ten Hag shall give Mainoo as a try. As the main cm playmaker, nr.6.



So with the addition of Mainoo. Who I think and believe wasn’t it Ten Hag plan when he took over United. Reason why he went for Casemiro as the nr.6 after chasing the De Jong.

I think and believe in the closest future and matches. Ten Hag and United shall go back to his plan A and origin plan. A proactive dominating football playing on the front foot. And of course special against teams United shall dominate. And maybe with a more defensive set up and line up, still against teams like Liverpool, City and Arsenal.

And rest of the season line up could be like this. And probably United best XI, in a proactive football, 433:



Onana + Dalot/Bissaka – Varane/Maguire – Martinez/Varane – Shaw/Dalot +

Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Mount – Rashford + Højlund.



And a more counter attack set/line up, 451 :



Garnacho – Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo – Rashford + Højlund. = here you move Casemiro in the as DM, cm destroyer to break up opponent attack and shield his back line. And like with Madrid he will have 2 really creative and cm players that a really good on the ball. Not like Modric and Kroos yet. But maybe over time. This more counter set up cm trio Bruno – Casemiro – Mainoo can be good.



But the first set up with a more attacking minded trio in Bruno – Mainoo – Mount. I believe will deliver better attacking result than the defensive set up.



So with Mainoo and back to origin plan A for Ten Hag and United. I recommend and advise Ten Hag shall drop the plan B, the transition high pressing set up and approach.

Reasons why? Because I think and believe the new owner, Ten Hag and United fans want to see a more attacking minded and dominate United team. A team that are playing in the front foot.

And because transition football mean = your team don’t have the ball, transition mean your team have to chase the ball, pressing high and win the ball up there. Then transit it to attacking and scoring goals. It is the opposite of proactive and dominating football. Football a la City, Arsenal and Liverpool are playing. And Tottenham with Ange too.



So again. With Mainoo. I think and believe it is meant to be. United and Ten Hag shall go back on the plan A. Ten Hag first intention and plan. Because I don’t think keep going in the transition track, road and plan is a good idea. It will goes against what Ten Hag really really want too.

I know Ten Hag is under and feel big pressure to deliver result, short time. So he will go for more safer and lesser risk than the 433 and Ajax dominate and proactive football.

And of course it more easily to score goals. If your team sit back and counter, than against parking bus and tight defend and team. Special against top teams and teams with a high back line. Open up and give space for United to counter attack.

But like above. Ten Hag is at no man’s land. Right now he hasn’t the player to get the most out of counter attack and transition football too. When his teams, so easily give up chances. Easily to play against. And of course at the moment I am writing this. With Martinez back fully fit and Shaw too. It might be a bit different and harder to break trough.



+ Then in the next summer transfer window. United new structure, new CEO and DOF have to find top players that suit proactive 433 football. Attacking players that are top when it come to dribbling and with high creative and end product. To let United having the ball in the team more when needed too.

United new structure. DOF. Answorth or whoever. Shall has the ball to say and recommend Ten Hag shall go away from plan B and transition football. If they will keep Ten Hag.

Ten Hag is just so deep in the transition football road and path now. The new United DOF and structure has to disagree, guide and lead him back to his first plan A. By getting the right players for him

Because after Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount. 3 factors that are showing he is on transition and counter attack football. It’s maybe good to have Mount in the line up against top teams.

But against team United shall just out beat and dominate the ball possession and scoring more goals then theirs opponent teams.

Like in my early post about Dani Olmo . I think and believe with Olmo on the left side of Mainoo will be more dangerous when it come to attack, special against tight defenders. Like this line up :



Garnacho – Bruno – Mainoo – Olmo – Rashford + Højlund



Olmo at this moment I rate him above when it come to creating chances and scoring ability. It is not a chance that Mount is as good as Olmo when it come to it.

Like Barca prime:

Xavi – Busquets – Iniesta. Olmo is more Iniesta than Mount. To get the most out of proactive 433. Because the LCM & RCM = are both nr.8 and attacking players. Theirs best abilities are with the ball, than without. Mount is a more ball winner and high pressing nr.8



Then a new offensive left wing back a la Grimaldo from Leverkusen can and will get United closer to dominating proactive 433 football.

Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey from the academy as new RW option to the first teams. Would be mine options to getting closer to become a really strong and dominate proactive 433 side.

All of Olmo, Grimaldo and Shea Lacey are really really good and precise with the ball on their feets = they really consistent and precise with the ball.

And all 3 has really high ability of creating chances and scoring goals. What this kind of football require and demand. On the top level and against the top teams of course. They have to best with the ball. Attacking players that are really really hard to take the ball from.

Like the prime Barcelona and Spain. Not the most physical team, but it was really really hard to take the ball from them. That is the bar and how a top dominating proactive team were doing.

Later we had the peak City, Liverpool and now Arsenal starting to become a really strong proactive team too.



So those are mine thought about Ten first intention and plan. I might be wrong. But reading of Ten Hag defensive and transition signings. I think he and United shall go best to plan A. Special, still against teams United shall dominate.

Like Mourinho on his prime and peak. Mourinho was parking the bus against top teams, rise the “hard to beat “ level to the top, this factor. But against team Mourinho Chelsea or Mardrid shall run over and dominate. Mourinho would line up a more attacking minded set up. A more proactive line up.

Again. Nothing wrong with counter attack and transition football. But for both ways and style/plan. Your teams get to have top players too. To get the most out of proactive and attacking football and set up. Both plan and set up require and demand top qualities of players/weapons.

Have a nice day

 

[Scandi Red]

So those are mine thought about Ten first intention and plan. I might be wrong.

Hey, don't sell yourself short!

 

[Samid]

What is the difference between this and the other thread?

 

[Zed 101]

What is the difference between this and the other thread?

The title

 

[CallyRed]

Enough space to attack between some of those paragraphs.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Tl;dr

 

[Catt]

Hah

 

[BenitoSTARR]

The PL is far too transitional to not have physically able midfielders.

Olmo doesn’t have the work rate and Mainoo can’t sit as the 6 just yet.

We’d get overran and besides we need more physically able defenders to do what you’d want as it would require them to cover large spaces.

 

[Demon Barber]

The PL is far too transitional to not have physically able midfielders.

Olmo doesn’t have the work rate and Mainoo can’t sit as the 6 just yet.

We’d get overran and besides we need more physically able defenders to do what you’d want as it would require them to cover large spaces.

In fairness to the OP, I did actually read.it all. I'm not saying I understood or agreed with everything, but at least I read it.

Now, the central premise is that we need to be 433. I'm not sure I agree with that, but even so, we would need RB, CD, LB, DM and another forward in order to make us competitive.

In a 532 we would need the same. In an old-school 442 we could get away with a CD, a CM and a CF.

But now I realise that I have no idea what I am talking about. Jumpers for goal posts. Tilt and xG. Inverted nipples.

 

[Siorac]

I can't even understand the title so I don't dare to read the post.

 

[golden_blunder]

I’m still scrolling the first post

 

[Glorio]

I'm in the presence of greatness ...

 

[ifightdragons]

Looks like we found another Dead Sea Scroll.

 

[horsechoker]

Classic Lucky Scout novel

 

[BenitoSTARR]

In fairness to the OP, I did actually read.it all. I'm not saying I understood or agreed with everything, but at least I read it.

Now, the central premise is that we need to be 433. I'm not sure I agree with that, but even so, we would need RB, CD, LB, DM and another forward in order to make us competitive.

In a 532 we would need the same. In an old-school 442 we could get away with a CD, a CM and a CF.

But now I realise that I have no idea what I am talking about. Jumpers for goal posts. Tilt and xG. Inverted nipples.

I have read it all. Hence my comment.

It’s too naive to suggest Mainoo, Olmo and Bruno as a 3. We’d need serious legs in defence to make up for that lack of athleticism.

 

[Acheron]

Enough space to attack between some of those paragraphs.

 

[ArbeitervonWien]

Could someone possibly summarise this in under 10.000 words?

 

[mintyred]

ETH's mistake is not following through with his plan, he tried to adapt to our players instead of making them adapt to him. Rangnick said he regrets not fully implementing his style and compromising for the players he had, and if they had spoken ETH would have known better. You'd never see Pep or Klopp compromise their style to accommodate players that aren't that good.

 

[ArbeitervonWien]

Really, I tried to read it. But it's like reading Ulysses, I failed after the first dozens of pages.

 

[ArbeitervonWien]

Honestly, our brains are degenerated by the internet, trained on snippets of information. You can't expect anyone to read a post as long as the Bible.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

I didn't even see who created the thread, I just started reading and by verse 16, I had to scroll up to confirm my assumptions.

Its a hell of a write up, but there has to be a summary at the end.

 

[Lyng]

ETH's mistake is not following through with his plan, he tried to adapt to our players instead of making them adapt to him. Rangnick said he regrets not fully implementing his style and compromising for the players he had, and if they had spoken ETH would have known better. You'd never see Pep or Klopp compromise their style to accommodate players that aren't that good.

Yup. It's what made me begin to lose faith in him. Ferguson was adamant we should play one-two-touch passing after Barca nuked us and just one summer break and we where playing that style. Heck we had Tom Cleverly playing that style.
Coaching is so important.

 

[Snoopygossip]

Enough space to attack between some of those paragraphs.

 

[NLunited]

Could someone possibly summarise this in under 10.000 words?

Good intentions but too much beer.

 

[NLunited]

I think you are mostly correct about the plan A and B, Lucky.

You did forget about plan Z.

Mainoo is our future no.6/8 hybrid playmaker, but we need an upgrade on Casemiro. Someone who is decent on the ball and excels at covering ground, screening and tackling.

imo fast transitions should always be part of the MU dna. This doesn‘t mean we can‘t be better in possession; it is essential we take better care of the ball going forward.

 

[jeepers]

It seems like your English has improved massively since I last read a post of yours! Not that I read through even 10% of the OP, mind. Good job though!

 

[UpWithRivers]

Whoever read both those posts needs a fkn medal. Who are you? I'll write to the King

 

[ArbeitervonWien]

Good intentions but too much beer.

Cheers. That's the amount of words I can deal with.

 

[Grande]

Yup. It's what made me begin to lose faith in him. Ferguson was adamant we should play one-two-touch passing after Barca nuked us and just one summer break and we where playing that style. Heck we had Tom Cleverly playing that style.
Coaching is so important.

Yes and no. Remember what happened to our Cleverly-style after 1-6 vs City? It was out the window and back to Querioz-style.

 

[Lyng]

Yes and no. Remember what happened to our Cleverly-style after 1-6 vs City? It was out the window and back to Querioz-style.

Yes but our passing was massively improved even if we changed styles later. The idea that the manager needs specific players and our current players only can do one thing is something I don't believe in.

 

[NLunited]

Yes but our passing was massively improved even if we changed styles later. The idea that the manager needs specific players and our current players only can do one thing is something I don't believe in.

We can do anything, but not every style suits our players.

 

[Grande]

Yes but our passing was massively improved even if we changed styles later. The idea that the manager needs specific players and our current players only can do one thing is something I don't believe in.

Are you saying that managers don’t need specific profiles of players to implement certain playing styles? That can’t be true, but if not, what do you believe? I think you said something to the effect that a good manager wouldn’t compromize on his chosen playing style just because his available players couldn’t implement it quickly enough or because of set backs, but Ferguson did just that that very season, because he was a smart pragmatist who wanted to win.

‘Only can do one thing’ is taking it far, but to claim

 

[Lyng]

Are you saying that managers don’t need specific profiles of players to implement certain playing styles? That can’t be true, but if not, what do you believe? I think you said something to the effect that a good manager wouldn’t compromize on his chosen playing style just because his available players couldn’t implement it quickly enough or because of set backs, but Ferguson did just that that very season, because he was a smart pragmatist who wanted to win.

‘Only can do one thing’ is taking it far, but to claim

No I am saying it's a problem when a manager doesn't even try. And also injuries are a weird excuse when you see Liverpool kids playing city of the park for large parts of the match. Our coaching simple is lacking.

 

[Grande]

No I am saying it's a problem when a manager doesn't even try. And also injuries are a weird excuse when you see Liverpool kids playing city of the park for large parts of the match. Our coaching simple is lacking.

When a manager doesn’t even try what? Ten Hag implemented the best high pressing and the best playing out from the back this group of players have achieved last season. Those thinking that Ten Hag’s style of high pressing, positional, proactive play developped at Utrecht, Bayern and Ajax is in opposition to transitional play have misunderstood. It is rather an attempt at the best of both worlds. However, the many disappoinments during the first half of the season came out of sticking to a strategy the players couldn’t handle for too long, not too short. This has been commented by many. United went too high with too many players and the players available couldn’t handle the ball precisely enough and couldn’t handle getting caught on the break. This too me is erring by doing too much of what you propose, not too little. Eventually he has changed strategies, temporarily I expect, and have gotten more results. Which is what Fergie did in 2011, only much earlier.

Surely you also understand the difference between handling a short term partial injury crisis with a team you have molded for eight years, every player bought (and bought well) to your profile and every youth drilled in your style all through academy,and handling a long term, full blown injury crisis with a team you have worked with for one season, where half of the players are bought with a different playing style in mind, and half of the other half are hasty buys lead by a DoF with little grasp of your playstyle including several lower shelf loanees - you see that the comparison isn’t very good, don’t you?

 

[Lyng]

When a manager doesn’t even try what? Ten Hag implemented the best high pressing and the best playing out from the back this group of players have achieved last season. Those thinking that Ten Hag’s style of high pressing, positional, proactive play developped at Utrecht, Bayern and Ajax is in opposition to transitional play have misunderstood. It is rather an attempt at the best of both worlds. However, the many disappoinments during the first half of the season came out of sticking to a strategy the players couldn’t handle for too long, not too short. This has been commented by many. United went too high with too many players and the players available couldn’t handle the ball precisely enough and couldn’t handle getting caught on the break. This too me is erring by doing too much of what you propose, not too little. Eventually he has changed strategies, temporarily I expect, and have gotten more results. Which is what Fergie did in 2011, only much earlier.

Surely you also understand the difference between handling a short term partial injury crisis with a team you have molded for eight years, every player bought (and bought well) to your profile and every youth drilled in your style all through academy,and handling a long term, full blown injury crisis with a team you have worked with for one season, where half of the players are bought with a different playing style in mind, and half of the other half are hasty buys lead by a DoF with little grasp of your playstyle including several lower shelf loanees - you see that the comparison isn’t very good, don’t you?

It's a failed system he tried to implement to get a mix of both, hence the buying of Mount. He had the idea that he could mix those two and create some new idea with 1 six and two offensive 8s. A terrible plan that backfired and forced him back to the drawing board and left us even more vulnerable to injuries.
I don't see that as pragmatic at all. I see it as completely misunderstanding the intensity of the league and the strength of it.
We have one shot against us per minute on average which is diabolical.
He could have focused less on transition and more on another Ajax philosophy which is actually maintaining the ball and play patters that means your players won't lose the ball five seconds after getting it. This mix of transition and a high line leaves us extremely vulnerable and is incredible naive with this team. Coincidentally we have looked better when reverting to full on Ole ball. But if that is in the end all we can get then I fail to see what Ten Hag brings to the table. Our squad looks much weaker now. Our goal difference is laughable. We concede more shots than are consumed at a bar during the weekend and we look extremely vulnerable most of the time.

 

[Grande]

It's a failed system he tried to implement to get a mix of both, hence the buying of Mount. He had the idea that he could mix those two and create some new idea with 1 six and two offensive 8s. A terrible plan that backfired and forced him back to the drawing board and left us even more vulnerable to injuries.
I don't see that as pragmatic at all. I see it as completely misunderstanding the intensity of the league and the strength of it.
We have one shot against us per minute on average which is diabolical.
He could have focused less on transition and more on another Ajax philosophy which is actually maintaining the ball and play patters that means your players won't lose the ball five seconds after getting it. This mix of transition and a high line leaves us extremely vulnerable and is incredible naive with this team. Coincidentally we have looked better when reverting to full on Ole ball. But if that is in the end all we can get then I fail to see what Ten Hag brings to the table. Our squad looks much weaker now. Our goal difference is laughable. We concede more shots than are consumed at a bar during the weekend and we look extremely vulnerable most of the time.

Seems to me you are moving the goal posts of what you claimed, not really answering what I wrote, and have a shady understanding of Ten Hag’s use of tactics.

Transitional focus, or vertical, is not something new to him, it was a defining part of his style at Ajax.

Your post that I first answered you wrote ‘yup, that’s why I first lost faith in him’ to a post claiming his biggest mistake was not sticking to his plan.

Confronted with arguments that he rather has stuck to his plans too hard, you move it around to claim he should rather have changed his plans to play another brand of Ajax possession football that he wasn’t really a proponent of, and that it has become better reverting to Oleball.

Seems to me your only common theme is that you want Ten Hag out because we are not playing well and winning this season, and that you’re not really clear on the whys and hows.

 

[Lyng]

Seems to me you are moving the goal posts of what you claimed, not really answering what I wrote, and have a shady understanding of Ten Hag’s use of tactics.

Transitional focus, or vertical, is not something new to him, it was a defining part of his style at Ajax.

Your post that I first answered you wrote ‘yup, that’s why I first lost faith in him’ to a post claiming his biggest mistake was not sticking to his plan.

Confronted with arguments that he rather has stuck to his plans too hard, you move it around to claim he should rather have changed his plans to play another brand of Ajax possession football that he wasn’t really a proponent of, and that it has become better reverting to Oleball.

Seems to me your only common theme is that you want Ten Hag out because we are not playing well and winning this season, and that you’re not really clear on the whys and hows.

Never said it was new to him. But you constantly evade how his team played in position, it was far more fluid and much less direct. He has not stuck by that and instead implemented a bastardized version that has resulted in us being way to easy to open up. I am quite clear on my why I believe we fail but you seem to only be aware of transitions in his Ajax time which is only 1 part of it. Sadly its the only part he has implemented here.

Also I am not a stubbord Ten Hag out or In. Whether to get rid of Ten Hag or not, for me, hinges on a lot of factors. There arent really many great alternatives. Especially if you then look at who would be realistic to get.
If we end up giving him another season, I am very much open to see what Ten Hag looks like when he is again under a proper football structure.
But I am just not blind to his failures, and this season has been a failure. Due to more factors than simply injuries.

 

[Grande]

Never said it was new to him. But you constantly evade how his team played in position, it was far more fluid and much less direct. He has not stuck by that and instead implemented a bastardized version that has resulted in us being way to easy to open up. I am quite clear on my why I believe we fail but you seem to only be aware of transitions in his Ajax time which is only 1 part of it. Sadly its the only part he has implemented here.

Also I am not a stubbord Ten Hag out or In. Whether to get rid of Ten Hag or not, for me, hinges on a lot of factors. There arent really many great alternatives. Especially if you then look at who would be realistic to get.
If we end up giving him another season, I am very much open to see what Ten Hag looks like when he is again under a proper football structure.
But I am just not blind to his failures, and this season has been a failure. Due to more factors than simply injuries.

Fair enough. Possibly where you and I disagree is the reasons for the difference between play in possesion (assume that’s what you meant?) at Ajax and United. The main differences for me are the amount of play spent in established attacks in the last thirds, and the relative ratio between attacking early behind the lines (long ball, three forwards) vs playing vertically through the channels and overloading in the second wave by way of midfielders or even full backs. Fair?

I believe the main reasons are several and working in combination: a) Ajax had even more superior players compared to most opponents, b) Ajax had diametrically opposite player types for several of the important roles, both first and second choice starters, c) Ajax has institutionalized much of the tactical and possesional competence which United haven’t, d) difference in Eredivise and PL playing tendencies, e) Overmars, Van der Sar etc were much more on the same page as Ten Hag and could work independently securing best possible players of the right profile and f) injuries this season. All this changes to me drastically what is possible to attain in how short a time. I think last season was a positive surprise from Ten Hag in terms of not only results, but also in progress with achieving principles of play concerning high press, build-up, combinatory play, FB roles in central midfield and wing play. Most aquisitions also appeared as ranging from successes to as expected. The outlier was Antony, who was useful in general play compared to players already at the club, but the negotiation of his price, whoever fault that was, messed up expectations around him enormously. So to me, it looked as if the tactical development was according to a reasonable plan, and that the fluidity of combination play, ball retention and opening up spaces in possession was more a result of ability than of design.

This season has been a big step backwards, in all possible senses but the development of young players (Garnacho, Højlund, Mainoo) who will be useful for the team going forward. I think injuries, mental craziness (sales process, Greenwood mess, Sancho mess, Antony mess, continuation of Maguire mess, Varane (?) mess) and how Ten Hag/the club has dealt with these challenges is the big explanation, but how that has looked behind the scenes is obviously a lot of guesswork on my part. Time will show. Either way, I don’t think what we have seen on the pitch this season much reflects Ten Hag’s tactical ambitions, barring 35 minutes vs Spurs and 45 mins against Nottm Forest. If you disagree, fair enough. If Ten Hag get more time, we’ll get a better idea about that as well.

 

[Lyng]

Fair enough. Possibly where you and I disagree is the reasons for the difference between play in possesion (assume that’s what you meant?) at Ajax and United. The main differences for me are the amount of play spent in established attacks in the last thirds, and the relative ratio between attacking early behind the lines (long ball, three forwards) vs playing vertically through the channels and overloading in the second wave by way of midfielders or even full backs. Fair?

I believe the main reasons are several and working in combination: a) Ajax had even more superior players compared to most opponents, b) Ajax had diametrically opposite player types for several of the important roles, both first and second choice starters, c) Ajax has institutionalized much of the tactical and possesional competence which United haven’t, d) difference in Eredivise and PL playing tendencies, e) Overmars, Van der Sar etc were much more on the same page as Ten Hag and could work independently securing best possible players of the right profile and f) injuries this season. All this changes to me drastically what is possible to attain in how short a time. I think last season was a positive surprise from Ten Hag in terms of not only results, but also in progress with achieving principles of play concerning high press, build-up, combinatory play, FB roles in central midfield and wing play. Most aquisitions also appeared as ranging from successes to as expected. The outlier was Antony, who was useful in general play compared to players already at the club, but the negotiation of his price, whoever fault that was, messed up expectations around him enormously. So to me, it looked as if the tactical development was according to a reasonable plan, and that the fluidity of combination play, ball retention and opening up spaces in possession was more a result of ability than of design.

This season has been a big step backwards, in all possible senses but the development of young players (Garnacho, Højlund, Mainoo) who will be useful for the team going forward. I think injuries, mental craziness (sales process, Greenwood mess, Sancho mess, Antony mess, continuation of Maguire mess, Varane (?) mess) and how Ten Hag/the club has dealt with these challenges is the big explanation, but how that has looked behind the scenes is obviously a lot of guesswork on my part. Time will show. Either way, I don’t think what we have seen on the pitch this season much reflects Ten Hag’s tactical ambitions, barring 35 minutes vs Spurs and 45 mins against Nottm Forest. If you disagree, fair enough. If Ten Hag get more time, we’ll get a better idea about that as well.

I actually dont disagree with that. My issue with the player side though is how we pivoted from De Jong to very different styles of players. Especially when it was becomming quite clear even last season that we lacked a press resistant deeper lying player.

 

[Grande]

I actually dont disagree with that. My issue with the player side though is how we pivoted from De Jong to very different styles of players. Especially when it was becomming quite clear even last season that we lacked a press resistant deeper lying player.

That was a conundrum, perhaps best explained by the fact that both Casemiro’s main strengths (reading the defensive positions and breaking up play) and De Jong’s main strengths (bringing the ball out from the back without ceding possesion) were sorely missed in that midfield for a Ten Hag plan A, and there wasn’t the intelligence at the club to identify nor negotiate less known/cheaper solutions to those problems. I think they were solutions to different problems, and De Jong not coming freed money short term for the other need. A good data and competence driven recruitment team with knowledge of Ten Hag’s demands from midfielders might have somehow predicted that Casemiro physically would wilt heavily after 2/3’s brilliant season at the age of just over 30, but I don’t think anyone else could be justified in predicting that, seeing other midfielders in similar positions play until their late 30’s at a high enough level. Maybe it’s training issues, maybe it’s individual issues, I don’t know. But De Jongs at this level don’t grow on trees.