That's fair and I absolutely don't blame Ten Hag for what happened with Case this season. Impossible to predict, especially given how good he was for us last season.
United team building : Ten Hag season 23/24 Evaluation and main reasons behind the result. start on page.2
- Thread starter LuckyScout78
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Grande
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It might be on Ten Hag to overload or overtrain him, or the medical/fitness coaches, or Case himself. Older bodies need more individualized regimes, of course. Impossible for us to know. What was strange was how good he was up until he got that red card suspension. He should come back refreshed, but returned a shadow. A player always playing on the edge, maybe he grew more careful after getting targetted by the refs?That's fair and I absolutely don't blame Ten Hag for what happened with Case this season. Impossible to predict, especially given how good he was for us last season.
I definately think he is trying to be more careful. And targetted is the perfect word for it. Its very clear that he has received cards for things that players like Rodri do every match and never see a card for.It might be on Ten Hag to overload or overtrain him, or the medical/fitness coaches, or Case himself. Older bodies need more individualized regimes, of course. Impossible for us to know. What was strange was how good he was up until he got that red card suspension. He should come back refreshed, but returned a shadow. A player always playing on the edge, maybe he grew more careful after getting targetted by the refs?
LuckyScout78
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I will try to be objective as possible. Neither I am Ten Hag out or his defender. Just share mine objective thoughts about what I have observed this season. From the outside of course. Not from internal source of the club.
+ First I will look back to last summer transfer window. From my opinion United and Ten Hag should buy at least a top level CB. Why? Because at that time. From the outside it look like Harry Maguire wasn’t in Ten Hag’s plan. Rumor and news were telling that West Ham had a bit on Maguire. But Maguire decided to stay and fight for a place.
In end United and Ten Hag decided to sign and give Jonny Evans one year contract. Who was clearly like a new car. In others words Evans wasn’t fully fit. Or fit enough to play regular as CB for United. Just meant to be 4 or 5 CB option.
But season before. Harry Maguire had struggled playing on a high line defend under Ten Hag. Because of his lack of top speed/acceleration in the first metres.
And to play as Ten Hag wish and intend to/plan B. Quick transition football. It demand a top CB with top speed and acceleration. Quick to push up or fall down.
And with the long time serious injury of Lisandro Martinez. This only shall be a reason why United shall sign another top and fully fit CB.
Not only the concern of Martinez injury. Raphael Varane was really often injury season before too.
Varane playing time :
Season 21/22 : 1829 minutes
Season 22/23: 1912 minutes
So United and Ten Hag shall not trust on Varane. That he would be a regular CB for United season 23/24.
Sum up this main reason = a lack of a fully fit and top CB come back to bite United and Ten Hag.
With serious long time injury of Martinez, willing to let Maguire leave and plus Varane injury historic. And why Varane decided to quit playing for the France nation team. All those sign and factors and it was clearly United really need a fully fit and top CB before the season start. So this mistake shall be on Ten hag and his staff.
Yes, you can blame on all the injuries later on the season. But again, the signs, reasons and factors to buy a top CB was there. The “Need” of a top CB before the season was there. And after my opinion shall be first priority.
Not only to have a top and quick acceleration. Will let and allow United and Ten Hag play with a high line defend, without being vulnerable for counter attack. But have this kind of a CB. Super quick in the first meters and really good one on one. Will rise United “hard to beat “ ability and factor. To concede lesser goals and chances.
So going into the season 23/24 with CB options:
Maguire, Varane, Martinez(long time injury, uncertain), Lindelof and Evans = good enough for top 6-8. But not good enough for top 5.
I will come back to opponent quality laters.
+ The second reason is the lacking of a top creative cm player :
Why shall United and Ten Hag has this kind of player?
+ Eriksen was over his peak and United could 100 % rely and depend on his creative. Not only due to his football level, but health and fitness too.
And it show so far Eriksens minutes this season = 882 minutes
+ Mason Mount was bought to play the nr.8 role. I am not 100 % was what the intention with Mason Mount. In the first matches Mount was using as a left CM nr.8. Casemiro was nr.6 cm
But from what Ten Hag did said before the season start that he aim United to be the quickest transition team in the world. So I think Mount was buying for his ball winning ability. Special ability without the ball, beside helping scoring some goals here and there.
For me Mason Mount is not a young Eriksen or Scholes I am looking after. And the main reason behind United lacking of creating big chances and scoring goals in the first half of the season.
Kobbie Manioo came back from injury has help a bit. But the boy can do it alone, still.
And the signing of “the destroyer and ball winner in Amrabat didn’t help much when it come to scoring goals or conceding lesser goals.
So in my opinion buying not the right CM players. This mistakes shall be on Ten Hag and his staff too. United shall buy a creative cm in the category of Scholes, young Eriksen or Modric. Instead Ten Hag bought Mount and Amrabat. To his plan to play quickest transition football.
But it end up with Mount injury and Amrabat wasn’t use much and enough to help United getting top 4.
+ Lacking of a top RW or close to top level :
This reason I will not fully blame on Ten Hag and his staff. Of course Ten Hag brought Antony in first place. But what was happening in Antony’s private life is out of Ten Hag hand and control. Special case like that.
And the problem with Jadon Sancho. Ten Hag got a question from the reporter after losing a game. Answer quickly. Maybe mood lead to that quick answer.
And both of this case was happened after the transfer window was closing. And the upcoming RW from the academy Noam Emeran decided to join FC Groningen. It lead to that United didn’t have natural RW. And it lead to Bruno was playing as RW here some minutes. Before Ten Hag and his staff figure out that Garnacho could do a good job as RW.
+ The consistent and top performances from top 3 teams. Arsenal, City and Liverpool. It lead to only 1 spot left for top 4 and champion league football.
And Spurs and Aston Villa was more consistent than United, because of the 3 main reason above. It lead to United table positions now.
Like in my first post of this thread and Ten Hag plan B and intention. Playing quickest transition football and with a high back line. It demand a top CB with top acceleration. And with Mason Mount = a transition cm player. And Amrabat not using much. We can ask. Do Ten Hag and United have the players to play that kind of football?
So from his first season. Ten Hag didn’t have play to play proactive and controlling football. He left that plan and move to plan B, like I explain. So before season 2 with United. Not buying right players and not lucky because of injuries. Didn’t have players to play plan B football.
Lacking top creative and skill full ball players = top proactive football couldn’t happen
Lacking top ball winner in defend and CM = Couldn’t play top transition football = rise the “ hard to beat level “, hard to play against and hard to score goals against = concede lesser goals.
The math of those reasons = Your teams easy to score against. And your team don’t score or creates enough goals…to get top 4 and champion league football.
And like in the beginning. I wasn’t write this to get rid of Ten Hag. It just an evaluation of him and his staff. Like in most company in the world. Doing a evaluation at the end of season or year. Objective as possible.
And 2 seasons evaluation: I think and believe the team haven’t progress. And Ten Hag and his staff have spend 2nd most behind Ole after post Sir Alex.
And with the timing of the new peoples in the board. New CEO, D.OF.
I do support Ten Hag plan A. Playing proactive attacking football. More dominating and controlling football.
BUT to develop and make United a better team and club. Ten Hag and his staff shall admit and take the blame for the mistakes before the start of this season 23/24. To get a top and fully fit CB and a top creative ball playing nr.8. United had a DM nr.6 in Casemiro. Should get a more creative and fully fit than Mason Mount and Eriksen. All this decision came back and bite Ten Hag and United.
To admit you made a wrong decision. Know the reasons that lead to the result. Know how to fix and solve = develop and make United a better team and club.
In other words. Before you learn from your mistake and decisions. You get to admit that you has done mistakes. BUT instead you keep blaming on all the injuries and unlucky factor. I think it will be really difficult to develop and United a better team and club.
Same as peoples who has high roles in business company. If you don’t admit your mistake but still defend your mistakes. It is not smart and benefit for the owner to let those peoples continue theirs important roles.
If Ten Hag and his staff admit theirs mistakes. And with the help and cooperation of new peoples. New D.O.F and etc. Let them find the players that demand and require the proactive attacking 433 football. Working together and fix and solve the problems of the team. And strength it. Have the players that require and demand to win the premier league.
So if the quality and reasons that will change, with top quality players that who are fully fit. On theirs way up. Of course Ten Hag can achieve success with United.
But again. If Ten Hag and his staff doesn’t accept theirs mistakes. Hard to cooperate with the new important peoples. All together for one direction and goal = making United a dominate team again.
I think it all come down to ours human ego. I am not sure I know Ten Hag 100 %. But togetherness like Ten Hag keep mention and repeating + acceptance of ours mistake and failure to learn from it and agreements on how things shall works. Those basic factors shall be there.
Imagine opposite. We all might have experience how difficult it is working together. If peoples just defend and protect theirs mistakes and decisions. = Really really difficult to work together.
+ First I will look back to last summer transfer window. From my opinion United and Ten Hag should buy at least a top level CB. Why? Because at that time. From the outside it look like Harry Maguire wasn’t in Ten Hag’s plan. Rumor and news were telling that West Ham had a bit on Maguire. But Maguire decided to stay and fight for a place.
In end United and Ten Hag decided to sign and give Jonny Evans one year contract. Who was clearly like a new car. In others words Evans wasn’t fully fit. Or fit enough to play regular as CB for United. Just meant to be 4 or 5 CB option.
But season before. Harry Maguire had struggled playing on a high line defend under Ten Hag. Because of his lack of top speed/acceleration in the first metres.
And to play as Ten Hag wish and intend to/plan B. Quick transition football. It demand a top CB with top speed and acceleration. Quick to push up or fall down.
And with the long time serious injury of Lisandro Martinez. This only shall be a reason why United shall sign another top and fully fit CB.
Not only the concern of Martinez injury. Raphael Varane was really often injury season before too.
Varane playing time :
Season 21/22 : 1829 minutes
Season 22/23: 1912 minutes
So United and Ten Hag shall not trust on Varane. That he would be a regular CB for United season 23/24.
Sum up this main reason = a lack of a fully fit and top CB come back to bite United and Ten Hag.
With serious long time injury of Martinez, willing to let Maguire leave and plus Varane injury historic. And why Varane decided to quit playing for the France nation team. All those sign and factors and it was clearly United really need a fully fit and top CB before the season start. So this mistake shall be on Ten hag and his staff.
Yes, you can blame on all the injuries later on the season. But again, the signs, reasons and factors to buy a top CB was there. The “Need” of a top CB before the season was there. And after my opinion shall be first priority.
Not only to have a top and quick acceleration. Will let and allow United and Ten Hag play with a high line defend, without being vulnerable for counter attack. But have this kind of a CB. Super quick in the first meters and really good one on one. Will rise United “hard to beat “ ability and factor. To concede lesser goals and chances.
So going into the season 23/24 with CB options:
Maguire, Varane, Martinez(long time injury, uncertain), Lindelof and Evans = good enough for top 6-8. But not good enough for top 5.
I will come back to opponent quality laters.
+ The second reason is the lacking of a top creative cm player :
Why shall United and Ten Hag has this kind of player?
+ Eriksen was over his peak and United could 100 % rely and depend on his creative. Not only due to his football level, but health and fitness too.
And it show so far Eriksens minutes this season = 882 minutes
+ Mason Mount was bought to play the nr.8 role. I am not 100 % was what the intention with Mason Mount. In the first matches Mount was using as a left CM nr.8. Casemiro was nr.6 cm
But from what Ten Hag did said before the season start that he aim United to be the quickest transition team in the world. So I think Mount was buying for his ball winning ability. Special ability without the ball, beside helping scoring some goals here and there.
For me Mason Mount is not a young Eriksen or Scholes I am looking after. And the main reason behind United lacking of creating big chances and scoring goals in the first half of the season.
Kobbie Manioo came back from injury has help a bit. But the boy can do it alone, still.
And the signing of “the destroyer and ball winner in Amrabat didn’t help much when it come to scoring goals or conceding lesser goals.
So in my opinion buying not the right CM players. This mistakes shall be on Ten Hag and his staff too. United shall buy a creative cm in the category of Scholes, young Eriksen or Modric. Instead Ten Hag bought Mount and Amrabat. To his plan to play quickest transition football.
But it end up with Mount injury and Amrabat wasn’t use much and enough to help United getting top 4.
+ Lacking of a top RW or close to top level :
This reason I will not fully blame on Ten Hag and his staff. Of course Ten Hag brought Antony in first place. But what was happening in Antony’s private life is out of Ten Hag hand and control. Special case like that.
And the problem with Jadon Sancho. Ten Hag got a question from the reporter after losing a game. Answer quickly. Maybe mood lead to that quick answer.
And both of this case was happened after the transfer window was closing. And the upcoming RW from the academy Noam Emeran decided to join FC Groningen. It lead to that United didn’t have natural RW. And it lead to Bruno was playing as RW here some minutes. Before Ten Hag and his staff figure out that Garnacho could do a good job as RW.
+ The consistent and top performances from top 3 teams. Arsenal, City and Liverpool. It lead to only 1 spot left for top 4 and champion league football.
And Spurs and Aston Villa was more consistent than United, because of the 3 main reason above. It lead to United table positions now.
Like in my first post of this thread and Ten Hag plan B and intention. Playing quickest transition football and with a high back line. It demand a top CB with top acceleration. And with Mason Mount = a transition cm player. And Amrabat not using much. We can ask. Do Ten Hag and United have the players to play that kind of football?
So from his first season. Ten Hag didn’t have play to play proactive and controlling football. He left that plan and move to plan B, like I explain. So before season 2 with United. Not buying right players and not lucky because of injuries. Didn’t have players to play plan B football.
Lacking top creative and skill full ball players = top proactive football couldn’t happen
Lacking top ball winner in defend and CM = Couldn’t play top transition football = rise the “ hard to beat level “, hard to play against and hard to score goals against = concede lesser goals.
The math of those reasons = Your teams easy to score against. And your team don’t score or creates enough goals…to get top 4 and champion league football.
And like in the beginning. I wasn’t write this to get rid of Ten Hag. It just an evaluation of him and his staff. Like in most company in the world. Doing a evaluation at the end of season or year. Objective as possible.
And 2 seasons evaluation: I think and believe the team haven’t progress. And Ten Hag and his staff have spend 2nd most behind Ole after post Sir Alex.
And with the timing of the new peoples in the board. New CEO, D.OF.
I do support Ten Hag plan A. Playing proactive attacking football. More dominating and controlling football.
BUT to develop and make United a better team and club. Ten Hag and his staff shall admit and take the blame for the mistakes before the start of this season 23/24. To get a top and fully fit CB and a top creative ball playing nr.8. United had a DM nr.6 in Casemiro. Should get a more creative and fully fit than Mason Mount and Eriksen. All this decision came back and bite Ten Hag and United.
To admit you made a wrong decision. Know the reasons that lead to the result. Know how to fix and solve = develop and make United a better team and club.
In other words. Before you learn from your mistake and decisions. You get to admit that you has done mistakes. BUT instead you keep blaming on all the injuries and unlucky factor. I think it will be really difficult to develop and United a better team and club.
Same as peoples who has high roles in business company. If you don’t admit your mistake but still defend your mistakes. It is not smart and benefit for the owner to let those peoples continue theirs important roles.
If Ten Hag and his staff admit theirs mistakes. And with the help and cooperation of new peoples. New D.O.F and etc. Let them find the players that demand and require the proactive attacking 433 football. Working together and fix and solve the problems of the team. And strength it. Have the players that require and demand to win the premier league.
So if the quality and reasons that will change, with top quality players that who are fully fit. On theirs way up. Of course Ten Hag can achieve success with United.
But again. If Ten Hag and his staff doesn’t accept theirs mistakes. Hard to cooperate with the new important peoples. All together for one direction and goal = making United a dominate team again.
I think it all come down to ours human ego. I am not sure I know Ten Hag 100 %. But togetherness like Ten Hag keep mention and repeating + acceptance of ours mistake and failure to learn from it and agreements on how things shall works. Those basic factors shall be there.
Imagine opposite. We all might have experience how difficult it is working together. If peoples just defend and protect theirs mistakes and decisions. = Really really difficult to work together.
The_Midfielder
Full Member
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,622
I know who we should sell
1) Lindelof
2) Scott ( sorry Scott)
3) AWB ( Dalot and get a young right back)
4) Varane
5) Casemiro
6) Maguire
7) Amrabat
8) Malacia
9) Shaw ( unreliable)
10) Erikson
Now just replace these with better players
1) Lindelof
2) Scott ( sorry Scott)
3) AWB ( Dalot and get a young right back)
4) Varane
5) Casemiro
6) Maguire
7) Amrabat
8) Malacia
9) Shaw ( unreliable)
10) Erikson
Now just replace these with better players