Utd Draft: QF - Fortitude vs Himannv

With players at their career (not Utd) peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

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Fortitude



Himannv



Fortitude Tactics

Attacking phases:




Overview:

An aggresive, perpetual team constantly probing and running into open spaces down the flanks and around the outside channels of both centrebacks. Backline is full of pace and aggression, mass and power and the line will stay high, backed as they are by one of the foremost sweeper keepers the game has seen. With any breach, the race is on to not only get away from my CB's but to get a shot off that is good enough to beat a rapidly encroaching Schmeichel, in combination, a very difficult task, and outside of it, an opponent who is playing into my hands by having to attempt to race free outside of playing a tight game through midfield, which favours a midfield with Crerand and Charlton in it.

Specifics:

Alongside Owen & Giggs, Kanchelskis is arguably the fastest player in the draft, but unlike Owen, Kanchelskis will constantly get to use his pace beings as he's out wide - Himann has no answer to Kanchelskis' pace and constant running, which will provide my intended encroachers on the other flank ample opportunities to latch onto crosses to attempt conversion. Kanchelskis, as shown in the video for him below, is also a real wildcard in terms of dribbling and carrying himself directly to goal. He needs to be contained in his own right, and I do not believe Himann has the means to do this with anyone who goes out on Kanchelskis' flank

I believe Rio to be the best CB in the draft, but the one thing Rio hated more than anything is the forward that played deep and forced him to come out towards midfield as a point of order. It's not that Rio couldn't do it, but it takes a lot of his game away as it's a Vidic or some other stopper better preferred to do that so that Rio could observe and sweep behind. Pique is not that guy, being a more cool, sweeping and passing customer, so the intention is to cause disarray by having Yorke play deep, using his cunning, timing and technical ability to not only hold the play and feed and onrushing Charlton, but also to read crosses from Kanchelskis and use his brilliant heading as well as work space for Hill to run directly into on the blind side. I don't intend to fight fire with fire in the case of Rio as there is a better way to reduce him with the team I have.

Charlton, as ever, is a massive, massive X-factor that has to be met by an equal and opposite threat. I don't intend to play him down - this is a midfielder that went head to head with Beckenbauer in an all-out battle for the ages, and you need a calibre of midfield opponent that is truly elite to contain everything that he is. There's no such thing as ignoring his threat; he has to be addressed, more than anything, he cannot be allowed any space or opportunities to shoot, and on top of that, his engine has to be matched. Yorke has the tandem of taking Rio away from the backline, as well as constantly feeding Charlton in combination plays.

Gordon Hill is a very cunning and timely opportunist. His greatest skill being his timing of getting into the box unsighted for one-time shots that are powerful, accurate and precise. Running around the back as the play corrals to the Yorke-Charlton tandem could very well see him as an 'unlikely' game-winner.

Crerand and Colman will work hard and tirelessly both are very able recyclers of the ball to attacking lines - Crerand with some of the best passing credentials in the draft, and Colman with his ball-carrying and ability to drive into space before releasing the ball to the forwards in short passing chains. Colman also triangulates well and is a constant thorn for his tenacity and ability to re-supply.

In Closing:

I can respect the threat of Rooney and Larsson, but I feel Himman's midfield cannot contain mine or prevent it from doing what I've outlined above. You need genuine defensive gravitas to stop Charlton, and Himann just hasn't got that. As opposed to this, my defenders are better equipped to go up against Rooney and Larsson. Rooney's a cannonball, there's no doubt about that and Larsson is a pacey, clever and opportunistic forward, but neither of them are backed by the kind of midfielder who can follow in and cause that extra bit of mischief. Pogba might be seen as that guy, but he comes with numerous issues of his own - in a firefight, I back him to have more lapses and slips in positional adeptness that provides openings for my players to work into. He is also not a player who is going to tireless work to run into the spaces, which is the game of others in the draft. Basically, I see a disconnect between his frontline and those backing them, further excacerbated by having to work out how to contain Charlton. Herrera, Butt, Neville, Veron... none of them are capable of the task, and even in combination, there isn't the nous or intelligence to match up to Charlton. Charlton also has more stamina than all of them, so not only is he better in every aspect as a footballer, he is also the superior athlete. They are up against a bigger stress than they can handle in any combination. Hill definitely has a lot of joy hovering ahead of Charlton. That half space to the upper left of midifled is where Charlton is naturally going to wander to, and in that case, Hill lurks and waits, chances will fall to him and a lot of open space.

None of the above is to denigrate Himman's players, rather, to acknowledge that Charlton is a really, really big deal who will take titanic force to be brought into line. This game, like the first, is primarily aimed at getting him on the ball as frequently as possible, the fallout is those orbiting being ready to pounce in the spaces his presence presents. Kanchelskis and Hill are very important components, as is Yorke, who I've literally broken up a proven treble-winning strike partnership in belief that what I have put out is the optimal unit to maximise advantages against Himann's side whilst acknowledging his strengths and working hard to disrupt it.


Gordon Hill:


Bobby Charlton:

big up @harms


Eddie Colman:


Carrick before Carrick in Crerand:


Andrei Kanchelskis:




Dwight Yorke:



Himannv Tactics

Formation: 4-2-3-1/4-3-3

Tactic: Counters, quick transitions, high line, pressing

Details:
  • Rooney, Larsson, and Morgan are all good off the ball and are ably supported by the midfield behind them. They will press and close down opponents.
  • Larsson gets on the end of passes but also syncs up with Rooney and combines.
  • Morgan is a player in the Best mold and is a great dribbler but also a good supplier from wide areas.
  • Veron is a key player here and is the AM of the team, stringing passes together and creating chances for the attackers.
  • Butt plays as the designated DM, while Herrera provides the workrate and is more B2B.
  • Fullbacks generally get forward with Rafael being the more adventurous.
  • CBs and GK are great on the ball and can play out from the back but also a key aspect is their ability to quickly pick out a pass.
Key player:

 

Gio

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Ah I thought you turned down Law because you wanted to retain the Yorke/Cole partnership.
 

Himannv

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Having no containment plan or mention of Charlton in your write up is a wow for me.
I don't roll that way. My focus is on my team and how I want them to play. This is a high press, quick transition side. Their focus is on hounding whoever gets the ball, particularly your defenders.

I'm not even convinced Charlton gets the ball all that often or has a whole lot of time on it when he does.
 

Fortitude

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Ah I thought you turned down Law because you wanted to retain the Yorke/Cole partnership.
Tactical switch vs Himann; couldn’t get Law in lieu of the backline.
I don't roll that way. My focus is on my team and how I want them to play. This is a high press, quick transition side. Their focus is on hounding whoever gets the ball, particularly your defenders.

I'm not even convinced Charlton gets the ball all that often or has a whole lot of time on it when he does.
Charlton doesn’t need any of the ball to be lethal though. His running and tireless foraging combined with the shooting of a cannon off either foot means that he can occupy 2 to 3 players at a time without even touching the ball. His runs have to be tracked and someone has to be in proximity to attempt to prevent him latching onto a set up pass or even a loose ball. The reason I mentioned Beckenbauer is because that’s the kind of package needed to go 1vs1, otherwise it’s a real team effort just to stop a single player. In the meantime, I have dangerous wingers and Yorke all equally capable of dribbling, shooting or setting one another up. Amongst that melee, you need to be able to be able to stifle the flow and work the ball back up the pitch. Veron is your only midfielder capable of half that job, but you have him in an offensive role. All his best work came from driving from deep. Andreas Herrera and Phil Neville are not going to be able to hold forte and progress the ball. They can’t do the first part of the job in containing Charlton, let alone then have the energy, technique and wherewithal to be progressive. I don’t believe you have the connectivity in midfield in offensive or defensive capacities to get a foothold in the game or prevent my side having majority possession and control.

I also think you have no answer to Kanchelskis, who really has the chance to run rogue out on the right.
 

Fortitude

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@Fortitude How often did Yorkie play as a lone CF? I always remember him alongside another more orthodox 9.
He’s not of the era of lone forwards in England, just as Kanchelskis and Giggs are from a time of being 2-way wingers, but he always displayed every single attribute you’d want in a lone forward. He constantly dropped between the lines, linked play and then worked towards goal. His hold up play was rock solid as too was his heading, as well as movement towards the near or far post, none of which he profited from a partner with as he was the foil and link-up for others.

He’s basically playing how he always did here, but working the ball laterally or back instead of forward more frequently ,with the wingers then going ahead of him and looking for the same play-ins his #9’s used to get.
 

Enigma_87

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another very tight match that is difficult to separate.

Himannv has the upper hand in midfield and defence IMO, but Phill Neville at left back against Kanchelskis is a big meh and disaster waiting to happen. There's also Charlton who will have the upper hand surging through Butt/Herrera.

On the other hand and what shades it for me is Evans at left back and that Rafael/Morgan right flank as H-man will have some joy on the side , especially with Hill not offering much help from what I know about him.

For Fortitude I'd really loved if he could have left the Cole/Yorke pairing up top and have Charlton in his England 66's CM incarnation where he would be next to Crerand.
 

Fortitude

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another very tight match that is difficult to separate.

Himannv has the upper hand in midfield and defence IMO, but Phill Neville at left back against Kanchelskis is a big meh and disaster waiting to happen. There's also Charlton who will have the upper hand surging through Butt/Herrera.

On the other hand and what shades it for me is Evans at left back and that Rafael/Morgan right flank as H-man will have some joy on the side , especially with Hill not offering much help from what I know about him.

For Fortitude I'd really loved if he could have left the Cole/Yorke pairing up top and have Charlton in his England 66's CM incarnation where he would be next to Crerand.
Appreciate the solid feedback.

I wanted Charlton free and able to roam so as to be even harder for lesser players to track or pick up - everything I’d be looking for from him is of the wtf just happened variety. As dogged and tenacious as either Herrera or Butt attempt to be, neither have the raw athleticism or stamina to keep a lid on Charlton throughout a game, imo.

I feel Colman, and his role are put to the side with the envisioning of him being much harder than all the other midfielders in the game, but he more than holds his own in this midfield and carries a ball carrying threat that is in the realm Butt and Neville can handle, but not when coupled with quick layoffs to Charlton/Yorke on the inside or Kanchelskis out to the flank; this is where again the intention was to capitalise on the cunning of the aforementioned players who were all sneaky with their movement and ghosting when the situation required it.

re. The flank threat. I think Kanchelskis kills that by himself on his side of the pitch - a loss of the ball and Crerand or Evan’s hitting him in open space, is basically a free run at goal. Even with players in position, matching him in a foot race is impossible for the majority of the draft; sitting deeper and forcing him to play a more staid game is surely the order of the day, unless you have a stellar flank yourself. On the other side, you’ve specifically mentioned Rafael and Morgan and Evans being easy prey, but my intention is not for Evans to try and play as a conventional FB; what I want from him is to hold his shape and corral, so long as the threat has to go down the byline and cannot cut inside, I am not fearful of crosses into my box, high or low vis-a-vis the risk-reward of winning back the ball and hitting that exact vacated space with a quick delivery from any of Schmeichel (long throw), Evans or Crerand, and if Hill is left to his own devices on a counter-counter, you have Rio absolutely on coals trying to both defend open space whilst keeping eyes on two very cunning operators in Yorke and Charlton - I welcome the attack of his as you’ve expressed it going for it because I believe that favours me. Also between Smalling, Pallister, Jones and Schmeichel (an awesome cross collector be it air, ground, far or near post), the delivery, to two shorter forwards, would have to be out of this world, which neither Rafael or Scanlon can claim.

I don’t think my backline is impervious nor is my midfield flawless, but what I have them set out to do, they can definitely execute and make Himman’s strength, gambles whilst I barely compromise my own shape to output a hell of a lot of attacking threat - that was why I sacrificed the Cole-Yorke partnership too, as doing so really frees Bobby whilst also enabling my wingers to focus on being wing forwards and my defensive block to just remain solid.

Not mentioning Schmeichel being a huge issue in himself to get past was remiss of me as I took it for granted that what he represents would be lore by now, but the other issue for Himann is how good the quality of either the play or the strikes have to be to best him - with my side strangling possession and him having to rely more on snatching at things, I think this is the type of game the Great Dane comes into his own in.
 

Šjor Bepo

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can see for what fort was going but that defence kills it for me even though i do rate smalls and evans(though not in that role)...was trying not to vote as fort conducted himself brilliantly in this game but hman has a good team(apart from mid 2) so would be unfair not to vote.
 

Fortitude

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Cheers, mate. Good game. I wasn't a fan of your fullbacks but I like the rest of it.

I did feel you should have maintained the Yorke and Cole partnership as that's just a lovely pairing but I guess it was a bit tricky to include.
Miscalculated on the FB run during drafting and have been trying to cover for it since with workarounds, but such is life. :)