Would you be okay with state or state-backed ownership?

[bringbackbebe]

I hope the Glazers stay and drag this on for a few more months, if not years. Will miss all the drama in this thread.

 

[stevoc]

No offence to anyone, and this is of course just my dumb opinion, but let’s not kid ourselves, the thread title is about state ownership but the discussion is mostly about Arab ownership with the thought that Arab’s are bad / immoral / unethical and the notion that supporting a team that they invest in therefore supports their immoral / unethical activities and tarnishes us with their crimes.

Yes but isn't it obvious why that's the case?

United are in the process of being bought by a middle eastern state so of course the discussion is going to primarily be about the implications of arab ownership. If it was the US government trying to buy United then the discussion would have naturally centred around people's objections to that based on US foreign policy past and present. I suspect you are aware of this but then that wouldn't fit with the everyone opposed to state ownership is racist narrative you are trying to push.

It's a bit mad that we are still getting posts pushing this narrative that anyone who opposes state ownership is a racist, I could be wrong but I think that's actually against forum rules? @moses @Raoul

Does that sound about right?

IMO of those vehemently against ‘Arab / state’ ownership, the litmus test that differentiates those who are just letting loose and throwing stones around in their glass houses and those who are genuinely opposed to such ownership on some kind of honest ethical grounds, is whether or not they hold mortgages, investments, bank accounts, pensions etc. with institutions and where those institutions put their money.

Who of us who has any kind of money in, or does any kind of business with, any minor or major financial institution, can honestly say that we’re not ourselves in some way supporting a situation that’s deeply immoral / unethical.
This could be via an investment in say; British Aerospace selling planes / weapons to Saudi Arabia, a parts manufacturer making castings that end up in cluster bombs, a contractor providing logistic support to one of the US torture camps in Guantanamo or elsewhere, an oil company - say no more, an airline that renders dissidents kidnapped by MI6 to Egypt where local security services can torture them for the USA, a car manufacturer selling limo’s to Russian oligarchs, even a luthier using rare hardwoods taken from tropical forests to make guitars or violins or a food manufacturer that destroys rainforests and drives native tribes and native animals to extinction by using palm oil or kills it’s customers by using high fructose syrup in it’s processed foods or a baby food manufacturers that uses lies in it’s advertising to convince poor women in Africa and India to use compound baby feeds where breast milk is much healthier and the drinking water that goes in the compounds routinely carries bacteria - thus, in effect, killing babies for profit etc. etc. etc.

From what I can see I’m guessing that of those opposing ‘state or Arab‘ ownership for ethical reasons, at least 99% have dirty hands themselves and, of those, at least 98% are choosing to deliberately ignore that so that their ironic jingoistic ranting can be shamelessly engaged in.

And I’m not making any claim that I’m some kind of deeply moral guy either. I openly admit it, my hands are filthy because I bank with First Direct, I have ISA’s with Barclays and I’ve not got a clue as to where every last penny I have invested in pensions via Standard Life end up on their journey around the stock markets.
On this basis I’m not being critical of where other folk have their money but I am suggesting that some honesty might be appropriate and if anyone wants to vent racism against Arabs then they should cease the very obvious and ridiculous farce of hiding their true motives and do so without falsely badging it as a matter of morals or ethics because we all know they haven’t made a moral or ethical stance in the way they live their own lives so are blatantly unfit to be critical of others who do similarly.

PS. Having read that back it looks quite ranty and I apologise for that but the gist of it is, I think, an undeniable truth that needed saying before we gather with our pitchforks and torches to completely deny reality, compound our practiced lies and descend down that slippy slope of stupidity into the depths of a rawk-like delusion.

Well this is a fresh new take on a tired old argument that's been done to death on here.

Usually it revolves around 3 mains points which mean you can't oppose state ownership by a middle eastern state: 1, if you live in a country that sells arms to the middle east. 2, you drive a vehicle that uses some sort of combustion fuel as that apparently all comes from the middle east as well. 3, you support a team that once had a minor sponsorship with a company located in the middle east.

But I've never seen the bank account or mortgage angle before so kudos for that. You are right though I'm off to close my bank account (I'll just carry cash around in a satchel from now on) and burn my house to the ground so I'm not a hypocrite.

 

[BobFromParva]

It's been established already by many around here that there's no way to be truly moral about anything.
For me as an Israeli, I'd have to give over the tiny 1/4 of acre I live on for people who're now refugees in Syria
and convince my friends and family to do the same before I could speak.

Then I'd have to go live in the Gaza Strip and defend civilian buildings with my body from plane bombardments. then I'd also have to spend every second of my free time to take part in demonstrations against Netanyahu trying to turn the state into something that has the potential to become a dictatorship. All this, and we still haven't gotten to talk about not using stuff that's been made in China...

How the feck do you win the moral battle with that? You just don't. You do what you can between trying to make ends meet, having some free time etc.

Same for you guys in whichever country you live in.

There's a question to be asked,
whether the strong disagreements that some (most?) Westerners have regarding certain rules a/o traditions in Muslim countries equals Islamophobia. I don't think it always does, and most times it isn't. And this term is thrown around rather loosely. It was the same with the WC in Qatar.


But, this doesn't mean that there's not at least some truth to what you said.

I think, if we were to be potentially bought by the state of Iceland or Finland [who, you'd like to think and probably be wrong about it, have a clean record regarding human rights etc],

You'd still see a lot of fans opposing the idea. There's every chance that you'll see way fewer people calling Icelandic people names that are the Nordic equivalent of 'goat feckers', but who knows. I can imagine the opposition to Icelandic ownership of United to be less vehement and leaning more towards the absolutely bizarre rather than plain wrong, which again solidifies your point to an extent.

Man United is meant to be one of the quickest, most powerful ways to escape the crappiness of our daily world for a couple of hours a week.
Most just don't want it directly related to images of women or LGBTQ being stoned to death. And this link is going to be made in the eyes of people around the world, whether you find this Islamophobic or not.

People just want United to remain rather English and privately owned, hence contributing to the horrors of the world in a more subtle way so to speak.

I have much empathy with your words my friend, you and I have cultural connections.
However, regardless of your political stance against your blatantly racist Israeli government (which you deserve credit for and which I fully endorse btw). I think that your existence, as you describe it yourself, demonstrates the irony that I was trying to convey.
I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics you must go through to live with the fact that the family that actually owns the land you now occupy were brutally evicted from their homes by the occupation army that protects you and that they’re forced to live landless in the dire poverty of a refugee camp in Syria, while you now metaphorically mow their grass and take the moral high ground over someone doing no worse than actually buying a football club.

And please don’t take my words as any attempt to take the moral high ground myself. As I said, I have investments in Barclays, bank that does business with the most heinous regimes, I have investments in Standard Life pension funds that are in turn invested in things that I don’t have a clue about (but which, I am sure, will not be squeaky clean), I bank with First Direct, a subsidiary of HSBC, I drive a car, I buy stuff off Amazon etc.. So I don’t hold myself as better placed morally than you or anyone else (we all piss in the pool we swim in) and, as we all know but few of us choose to admit, none of us are morally placed to be critical of anyone buying a football club, that’s the point I was making.

And regards the ‘moral battle’ you refer to. Yes, I agree that as individuals we can’t change the world. But that doesn’t mean that the little pushes that we can make in the right direction can‘t be better targeted by our protesting against the obviously bad things (invasions, occupations, crimes against humanity, racism et al) and by us pointedly celebrating the obviously good things (cultural diversity, investment in people, investment in those things that are meritocratic and where success is based on ability, not race creed or colour . . like football).

And I think your line about “people just want United to remain English” is a very sharp observation.
I think you’re right, anyone can see it and it’s a marker of an undercurrent of jingoistic / racist opposition to Arab ownership, an opposition ironically by people who themselves (albeit often at a distance that they are comfortable with) continue to profit in their investments and in the purchases they make from crimes against humanity, crimes against nature, crimes against the very existence of the planet our grandchildren will inherit.

In summary; Reading the anti-Arab rhetoric in this thread, and seeing the way people justify it by ignoring the fact that their own actions support wars / murderous occupations and the like, while they carry on getting loudly uppity about a potential foreign investment in a sporting endeavour (shock horror!) is akin to watching a protest against the barbaric cruelty of the meat industry where all the protestors are eating veal on skewers and canapés heaped with foie gras pate.
It’s beyond ironic and it’s just not right, it’s dishonest, it’s delusional and it’s weird to see.

IMO many heads need to be given many wobbles and should keep being wobbled until there’s sufficient clarity to see beyond the delusion and we can all be honest with ourselves.
War, hate, occupations, racism, destruction of the planet etc. = bad. Let’s push against this stuff.
People coming together sharing cultural diversity, acceptance as equals, sports where all can compete equally (footie for example) = good. Let’s embrace this stuff.

Footnote; I won’t write any more on this topic because there shouldn’t even be a thread so laced in irony and my input is only perpetuating it.

 

[Raoul]

It's a bit mad that we are still getting posts pushing this narrative that anyone who opposes state ownership is a racist, I could be wrong but I think that's actually against forum rules? @moses @Raoul

That’s correct. Criticisms of potential state ownership are perfectly fine.

 

[Eriku]

This thread seems to have deteriorated into one big whataboutism.

Am I to believe the only way to not be a hypocrite is to be fine with whatever the feck serves your interests? Either that or go entirely off the grid and make your way in the woods.

Lazy arguments to help people feel better about wanting United’s fortunes to improve, no matter where the help comes from.

 

[Pickle85]

I have much empathy with your words my friend, you and I have cultural connections.
However, regardless of your political stance against your blatantly racist Israeli government (which you deserve credit for and which I fully endorse btw). I think that your existence, as you describe it yourself, demonstrates the irony that I was trying to convey.
I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics you must go through to live with the fact that the family that actually owns the land you now occupy were brutally evicted from their homes by the occupation army that protects you and that they’re forced to live landless in the dire poverty of a refugee camp in Syria, while you now metaphorically mow their grass and take the moral high ground over someone doing no worse than actually buying a football club.

And please don’t take my words as any attempt to take the moral high ground myself. As I said, I have investments in Barclays, bank that does business with the most heinous regimes, I have investments in Standard Life pension funds that are in turn invested in things that I don’t have a clue about (but which, I am sure, will not be squeaky clean), I bank with First Direct, a subsidiary of HSBC, I drive a car, I buy stuff off Amazon etc.. So I don’t hold myself as better placed morally than you or anyone else (we all piss in the pool we swim in) and, as we all know but few of us choose to admit, none of us are morally placed to be critical of anyone buying a football club, that’s the point I was making.

And regards the ‘moral battle’ you refer to. Yes, I agree that as individuals we can’t change the world. But that doesn’t mean that the little pushes that we can make in the right direction can‘t be better targeted by our protesting against the obviously bad things (invasions, occupations, crimes against humanity, racism et al) and by us pointedly celebrating the obviously good things (cultural diversity, investment in people, investment in those things that are meritocratic and where success is based on ability, not race creed or colour . . like football).

And I think your line about “people just want United to remain English” is a very sharp observation.
I think you’re right, anyone can see it and it’s a marker of an undercurrent of jingoistic / racist opposition to Arab ownership, an opposition ironically by people who themselves (albeit often at a distance that they are comfortable with) continue to profit in their investments and in the purchases they make from crimes against humanity, crimes against nature, crimes against the very existence of the planet our grandchildren will inherit.

In summary; Reading the anti-Arab rhetoric in this thread, and seeing the way people justify it by ignoring the fact that their own actions support wars / murderous occupations and the like, while they carry on getting loudly uppity about a potential foreign investment in a sporting endeavour (shock horror!) is akin to watching a protest against the barbaric cruelty of the meat industry where all the protestors are eating veal on skewers and canapés heaped with foie gras pate.
It’s beyond ironic and it’s just not right, it’s dishonest, it’s delusional and it’s weird to see.

IMO many heads need to be given many wobbles and should keep being wobbled until there’s sufficient clarity to see beyond the delusion and we can all be honest with ourselves.
War, hate, occupations, racism, destruction of the planet etc. = bad. Let’s push against this stuff.
People coming together sharing cultural diversity, acceptance as equals, sports where all can compete equally (footie for example) = good. Let’s embrace this stuff.

Footnote; I won’t write any more on this topic because there shouldn’t even be a thread so laced in irony and my input is only perpetuating it.

You post like Simon Jordan talks.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

You post like Simon Jordan talks.

That’s preposterous, you absolute Herbert.

 

[RedSky]

You post like Simon Jordan talks.

Now that's some insult.

 

[stevoc]

That’s correct. Criticisms of potential state ownership are perfectly fine.

Cheers Raoul, appreciate you clarifying that.

 

[stevoc]

You post like Simon Jordan talks.

 

[Pickle85]

That’s preposterous, you absolute Herbert.

impossible not to hear it in his voice as well...

 

[BobFromParva]

You post like Simon Jordan talks.

I have not a clue as to who Simon Jordan is, or how he talks, but I always presume that people are nice in the first instance, so I’ll take your motive as kindness and hold your words as a compliment Mr Pickle. Thank you :-)

 

[Rhyme Animal]

impossible not to hear it in his voice as well...

I’m not intwested in how you wed it.

I, pwimarily, am a businessman. Now kindly stop being so pweposterous and allow me to get on with running my business.

 

[BobFromParva]

I’m not intwested in how you wed it.

I, pwimarily, am a businessman. Now kindly stop being so pweposterous and allow me to get on with running my business.

Haha, I just looked him up on YouTube and you have him to a T Mr Rhyme Animal :-D

I also must say that I’m tickled by your moniker, it reminds me of the Hiphopopotamus vs Rhymenoceros song by Flight Of The Concords . .
Though I recon that I’m not the first to have mentioned that.

I’d have posted a link if I had the privileges to do so but, in the unlikely event that you’ve not heard it, you should wander into YouTube and have a chuckle.

 

[adexkola]

This thread seems to have deteriorated into one big whataboutism.

Am I to believe the only way to not be a hypocrite is to be fine with whatever the feck serves your interests? Either that or go entirely off the grid and make your way in the woods.

Lazy arguments to help people feel better about wanting United’s fortunes to improve, no matter where the help comes from.

I take the position it's ok to be a hypocrite as long as you're open and honest about it.

 

[croadyman]

I hope the Glazers stay and drag this on for a few more months, if not years. Will miss all the drama in this thread.

Clearly a WUM but then that's what these leeches have reduced us to these last 8 months

 

[bringbackbebe]

Clearly a WUM but then that's what these leeches have reduced us to these last 8 months

I may not be off at all. This whole saga seems to be never ending.

 

[Bert_]

I have much empathy with your words my friend, you and I have cultural connections.
However, regardless of your political stance against your blatantly racist Israeli government (which you deserve credit for and which I fully endorse btw). I think that your existence, as you describe it yourself, demonstrates the irony that I was trying to convey.
I can’t even imagine the mental gymnastics you must go through to live with the fact that the family that actually owns the land you now occupy were brutally evicted from their homes by the occupation army that protects you and that they’re forced to live landless in the dire poverty of a refugee camp in Syria, while you now metaphorically mow their grass and take the moral high ground over someone doing no worse than actually buying a football club.

And please don’t take my words as any attempt to take the moral high ground myself. As I said, I have investments in Barclays, bank that does business with the most heinous regimes, I have investments in Standard Life pension funds that are in turn invested in things that I don’t have a clue about (but which, I am sure, will not be squeaky clean), I bank with First Direct, a subsidiary of HSBC, I drive a car, I buy stuff off Amazon etc.. So I don’t hold myself as better placed morally than you or anyone else (we all piss in the pool we swim in) and, as we all know but few of us choose to admit, none of us are morally placed to be critical of anyone buying a football club, that’s the point I was making.

And regards the ‘moral battle’ you refer to. Yes, I agree that as individuals we can’t change the world. But that doesn’t mean that the little pushes that we can make in the right direction can‘t be better targeted by our protesting against the obviously bad things (invasions, occupations, crimes against humanity, racism et al) and by us pointedly celebrating the obviously good things (cultural diversity, investment in people, investment in those things that are meritocratic and where success is based on ability, not race creed or colour . . like football).

And I think your line about “people just want United to remain English” is a very sharp observation.
I think you’re right, anyone can see it and it’s a marker of an undercurrent of jingoistic / racist opposition to Arab ownership, an opposition ironically by people who themselves (albeit often at a distance that they are comfortable with) continue to profit in their investments and in the purchases they make from crimes against humanity, crimes against nature, crimes against the very existence of the planet our grandchildren will inherit.

In summary; Reading the anti-Arab rhetoric in this thread, and seeing the way people justify it by ignoring the fact that their own actions support wars / murderous occupations and the like, while they carry on getting loudly uppity about a potential foreign investment in a sporting endeavour (shock horror!) is akin to watching a protest against the barbaric cruelty of the meat industry where all the protestors are eating veal on skewers and canapés heaped with foie gras pate.
It’s beyond ironic and it’s just not right, it’s dishonest, it’s delusional and it’s weird to see.

IMO many heads need to be given many wobbles and should keep being wobbled until there’s sufficient clarity to see beyond the delusion and we can all be honest with ourselves.
War, hate, occupations, racism, destruction of the planet etc. = bad. Let’s push against this stuff.
People coming together sharing cultural diversity, acceptance as equals, sports where all can compete equally (footie for example) = good. Let’s embrace this stuff.

Footnote; I won’t write any more on this topic because there shouldn’t even be a thread so laced in irony and my input is only perpetuating it.

You piss in swimming pools?

 

[Monks_United]

You piss in swimming pools?

You don't ?

 

[BobFromParva]

You piss in swimming pools?

It was metaphorical and referred the wider situation . . though I think you probably understood that.


Though to respond to your specific enquiry, I can’t say that I’ve never pissed in a pool . . whoever has ever been in a pool could?