Really? Twitter comments? I clicked the link of one of the YouTube videos posted yesterday and there were all sorts of vile things said by people on both sides. There will always be horrible anonymous comments on the Internet. The fact remains that one country's fans racially abused another country's player. That's what this about. NATO talk is just a smokescreen to avoid dealing with the real problems.
Serbia vs England U21 - The Incident
- Thread starter Tomalonge
- Start date
Really? Twitter comments? I clicked the link of one of the YouTube videos posted yesterday and there were all sorts of vile things said by people on both sides. There will always be horrible anonymous comments on the Internet. The fact remains that one country's fans racially abused another country's player. That's what this about. NATO talk is just a smokescreen to avoid dealing with the real problems.
Well done, you drag some neanderthal comments from twitter and inject them on here as part of our current debate? What are you even trying to prove here? If you want to get offended by comments on twitter, then the obvious thing to do is go and argue on there.
We are talking about ACTUAL EVENTS here and subsequent punishments. If you want to get involved in that debate, then nice one. However if you want to keep generalising based on twitter (which is hypocritical since you are complaining about generalising), then go there. Oh and sod of with your slavery and bombings comments, as I've already pointed out in this thread, what the feck does that all have to do with a football match, racisim, thuggery and overall cuntishness of the guilty parties?
It is indeed.
I notice that none of our resident serbs haven't actually fully condemned the events. Funny minority...
Not sure what the problem is with dragging Twitter comments, just because they buttress my point to a tee does not mean I should have refrained from quoting them, does it ? Especially since quite a lot like those emerged
Look man you're albanian and i'm serbian so we can discuss this until tomorrow and not have moved an inch, i didnt subscribe on redcafe to dwell on balkan politics, quite the contrary...
Look man you're albanian and i'm serbian so we can discuss this until tomorrow and not have moved an inch, i didnt subscribe on redcafe to dwell on balkan politics, quite the contrary...
So you want to bring up politics, then shy away when answered?
Also, you didn't sign up to redcafe to discuss balkan politics, but you did to discuss twitter politics?
When you make a coherant point, maybe people will take what you say seriously. So I suggest you try to clarify your point of view on the game and it's events, because after all that's what we are discussing is it not? Oh and I'll give you a clue, slavery 100 years ago and brainless posts about bombing serbia on twitter had feck all to do with the disgrace that happened at a football match.
But you started taking the football problem to political problem
.Anyway I would have liked to listen to your point of view for the mentioned events (just for curiosity, not that it could change anything), though I agree that it shouldn't be in a football forum.
wow Nani Nana is not coming out of this thread looking well, at all.
Serbia should do the right thing and come out and condemn the few fans that were undeniably racially abusing players and this incident will probably be forgotten in a few weeks. The reality is, it was a small section of people racially abusing certain players, not the whole stadium and Serbia isn't a racist country as some journalists would lead you to believe.
But the idiots on twitter invented racism apparently, so it's ok to deny that there's a problem in Serbian football.
Serbian logic.
I might go on twitter to compare Serbia to Liverpool. That should get heads popping!
Social media is full of aggressive bellends. The dumb & angry always shout the loudest. There are some pretty brilliant bat-shit comments on that youtube video. My favorite is this one
feck off, piss off...But come here...You retards, we'll treat you with respect.
It's pretty genius tbf.
feck off, piss off...But come here...You retards, we'll treat you with respect.
It's pretty genius tbf.
He forgot we also invented the art of posting dumb comments on twitter and social media! So in fact, he should be thanking us for giving him the opportunity to post a dumb comment.
Oh, and when there's racist abuse and thuggery at the next Serbian game, we should take credit for that too. Serbia should haved a national thanks England day come to think of it.
Weird as it sounds, it is something that can be difficult to hear though sounds like that wasn't the case this time.
Was at the Spurs v Lazio game recently and only heard the abuse once it was pointed out to me and, even then, it wasn't 100% clear if it was monkey chanting.
It's quite interesting if you look at the arc of the caf which was say 5 years ahead of twitter.
I've been to a United-Lazio game and didn't hear any monkey chants. The huge inflatable banans were a bit of a giveaway though.
Alright this has gone on long enough I feel.
Bottom line is none of the Serbs on this forum are responsible for what happened, and none of us wanted it to happen, and none us deserve to have borderline racism thrown towards us either.
I believe my comment about the players provocations leading to repercussions (ie the fight) was misinterpreted along the way. So I will clear it up a little. Knowing the Serb temper, a provocation leads to a problem very quickly. Again, this is isn't justifying anything, it's just the way things are. So imagine you're a Serb in this game. You've fought hard all game and you lose - in front of your fans and in your country, an important game too. You're gonna be disappointed/frustrated. Danny Rose reacts to the crowd and then one of our players goes over there and reacts to him. That reaction spills a mass brawl and so on. About the brawl, here is a video from another view which shows that it was only ONE player that confronted Rose - an 18 year old kid. He said in his interview, that Rose gestured 3/4 times to the crowd in an appropriate manner, hence his reaction.
What's so bad in this video? It's not the Royal Rumble the press lead you to believe it was. Half the Serb players are on the floor, and some others are trying to break it up. Then it excels into more, but none of us know the reason for that so no point in commenting.
Paul Parker said the England players should have left the pitch and gone to celebrate in the changing rooms. I agree with him. Whilst Danny Rose would have been well within his right to give some back to the fans, the smart thing would have been to leave it and enjoy the win with his team in the changing rooms.
The video from the Serb FA about Danny Rose has sparked lots of comments. People claiming that the Racist chanting throughout the game was edited out in that video are even sillier than the Serb FA for making that video without the ending. The Serb FA said in statements that during the game there was no racist chanting and that's why they made the video to highlight that - whether or not it does is up for debate, obviously no one on here believes it so there's not much point discussing that further. What happened afterwards, not even they can deny - but because they haven't accepted it and said it would be dealt with the media reaction has heated up on Serbia 10-fold.
The whole notion that Serbia is racist is wrong also. Firstly, out of all of the Ex-Yugoslavia countries Serbia has the most ethnic minorities living in it. Secondly, as Nani said Diara has been in Serbia for 5 years and didn't experience racism at Partizan. This week, 3 separate black football players living in Serbia said the same thing. Serbia isn't racist, a minority of idiots at a football game won't change that. In any case, myself and the rest of the Serbs on this board are definitely not and therefore shouldn't have to put up with comments saying we are. Of course we will defend that, because we know better.
We need to be punished - but as Nani said punishing the whole Serbian football is not the way. This will create more hatred towards the West and then later down the line there would be another Genoa incident. You're talking about a nation who already resents the West. I would prefer it if the Senior NT got banned also, but that's just because our Serb FA is so corrupt that it needs to die somehow. Which brings me to the comment about Serb FA owning up. You need to realise that the Serb FA are criminals, they won't own up to anything. Every Serb Football fan wants the FA President GONE. At football games you see thousands of people chanting about the president being a crook, and for him to leave. We've wanted this for ages, and in some parts this was why the Genoa incident happened. Regular fans like myself and Nani who watch the NT don't need to see incidents like Genoa happening. Especially if you are at those games yourself.
Bottom line is none of the Serbs on this forum are responsible for what happened, and none of us wanted it to happen, and none us deserve to have borderline racism thrown towards us either.
I believe my comment about the players provocations leading to repercussions (ie the fight) was misinterpreted along the way. So I will clear it up a little. Knowing the Serb temper, a provocation leads to a problem very quickly. Again, this is isn't justifying anything, it's just the way things are. So imagine you're a Serb in this game. You've fought hard all game and you lose - in front of your fans and in your country, an important game too. You're gonna be disappointed/frustrated. Danny Rose reacts to the crowd and then one of our players goes over there and reacts to him. That reaction spills a mass brawl and so on. About the brawl, here is a video from another view which shows that it was only ONE player that confronted Rose - an 18 year old kid. He said in his interview, that Rose gestured 3/4 times to the crowd in an appropriate manner, hence his reaction.
What's so bad in this video? It's not the Royal Rumble the press lead you to believe it was. Half the Serb players are on the floor, and some others are trying to break it up. Then it excels into more, but none of us know the reason for that so no point in commenting.
Paul Parker said the England players should have left the pitch and gone to celebrate in the changing rooms. I agree with him. Whilst Danny Rose would have been well within his right to give some back to the fans, the smart thing would have been to leave it and enjoy the win with his team in the changing rooms.
The video from the Serb FA about Danny Rose has sparked lots of comments. People claiming that the Racist chanting throughout the game was edited out in that video are even sillier than the Serb FA for making that video without the ending. The Serb FA said in statements that during the game there was no racist chanting and that's why they made the video to highlight that - whether or not it does is up for debate, obviously no one on here believes it so there's not much point discussing that further. What happened afterwards, not even they can deny - but because they haven't accepted it and said it would be dealt with the media reaction has heated up on Serbia 10-fold.
The whole notion that Serbia is racist is wrong also. Firstly, out of all of the Ex-Yugoslavia countries Serbia has the most ethnic minorities living in it. Secondly, as Nani said Diara has been in Serbia for 5 years and didn't experience racism at Partizan. This week, 3 separate black football players living in Serbia said the same thing. Serbia isn't racist, a minority of idiots at a football game won't change that. In any case, myself and the rest of the Serbs on this board are definitely not and therefore shouldn't have to put up with comments saying we are. Of course we will defend that, because we know better.
We need to be punished - but as Nani said punishing the whole Serbian football is not the way. This will create more hatred towards the West and then later down the line there would be another Genoa incident. You're talking about a nation who already resents the West. I would prefer it if the Senior NT got banned also, but that's just because our Serb FA is so corrupt that it needs to die somehow. Which brings me to the comment about Serb FA owning up. You need to realise that the Serb FA are criminals, they won't own up to anything. Every Serb Football fan wants the FA President GONE. At football games you see thousands of people chanting about the president being a crook, and for him to leave. We've wanted this for ages, and in some parts this was why the Genoa incident happened. Regular fans like myself and Nani who watch the NT don't need to see incidents like Genoa happening. Especially if you are at those games yourself.
Has to be one of the worse arguments I have ever heard. Punishment is supposed to be hard on you. Its not UEFA's problem that you have a hatred towards the West. It doesnt give some of your fans the right to behave in a very bad manner. A ban is the right thing to do. Its doesnt matter if it makes some idiots madder. Just keep banning them till they get the message.
I'm in favour of punishment, I'm just telling you what would happen in the long run.
Well if they cant behave in the long run ban Serbia indefinitely. Its the simple solution.
I'm not really bothered about the scuffle on the pitch. It happens sometimes. The most worrying part is the Serbian FA completely denying everything. I mean, what the feck were they thinking? How do people make these decisions? Can't even get my head round it
Not a bad post VUC, but one thing I will pick you on is the thought anyone thinks you are the other serbs here are guilty of this, or that you and your fellow countrymen are all racist thugs.
I personally don't see you, nani-nana or Vidic in any different light, far from it. You are on here making points about the situation and trying to explain your points, and that's great. I'll apologise now if any of you have taken any of my comments, tongue-firmly-in-cheek or otherwise as slightly racist, or offensive to you personally, but any reference I've made to anything is about Serbian football, not the whole country!
My main point, which has been the same from start to finish, is that forgetting all else this is over a game of football. Talk of nato, bombings, slavery and balkan politics has been brought up by you lot to try to confuse things, when in simple fact they have feck all to do with the occurences that night. I find that tasteless and very silly, sarcastic or not.
There was racism ,there was thuggery and now there is absolutely ridiculous offical reaction from the Serbian FA et all, and that is the problem here. If the reaction to any ban (which I doubt will happen anyway) is more violence and hatred of the 'west' then surely that shows a much deeper lying problem anyway?
All in all, it was a disgrace and should be looked upon as such, no matter where you are from and what nations are involved. And you've got to admit, on the slightly amusing side, the handling since has been very Liverpool-ish
I personally don't see you, nani-nana or Vidic in any different light, far from it. You are on here making points about the situation and trying to explain your points, and that's great. I'll apologise now if any of you have taken any of my comments, tongue-firmly-in-cheek or otherwise as slightly racist, or offensive to you personally, but any reference I've made to anything is about Serbian football, not the whole country!
My main point, which has been the same from start to finish, is that forgetting all else this is over a game of football. Talk of nato, bombings, slavery and balkan politics has been brought up by you lot to try to confuse things, when in simple fact they have feck all to do with the occurences that night. I find that tasteless and very silly, sarcastic or not.
There was racism ,there was thuggery and now there is absolutely ridiculous offical reaction from the Serbian FA et all, and that is the problem here. If the reaction to any ban (which I doubt will happen anyway) is more violence and hatred of the 'west' then surely that shows a much deeper lying problem anyway?
All in all, it was a disgrace and should be looked upon as such, no matter where you are from and what nations are involved. And you've got to admit, on the slightly amusing side, the handling since has been very Liverpool-ish
Decent post Vuc, and it does explain a lot of things - such as why we can't expect the Serbian FA to be reasonable. However, the point that you shouldn't be banned because a lot of people already hate the West is non-sense to say the least. I'm happy that you agree that Serbia do need to be banned though.
UEFA simply can't look at these things and keep in mind "What will the reaction be?". They have to punish the country/club without thinking of the reaction. As I said in another post, if the Serbian public truly does get pissed off it's even more reason for a ban as they need to learn it's simply not acceptable. If the fans attending the games doesn't learn you'll just keep getting banned until it sinks in. Serbia might start to hate UEFA even more than they already might do, but if UEFA doesn't react to this a lot of other countries will get pissed instead. And quite honestly; how can UEFA justify sending teams (particularly youth teams) to a country where they know there's a good chance it'll go wrong somehow? It's not UEFA's task to make countries like the West, it's UEFA's task to make sure that wherever they make teams play they can do so in a safe and relatively pleasant environment.
UEFA simply can't look at these things and keep in mind "What will the reaction be?". They have to punish the country/club without thinking of the reaction. As I said in another post, if the Serbian public truly does get pissed off it's even more reason for a ban as they need to learn it's simply not acceptable. If the fans attending the games doesn't learn you'll just keep getting banned until it sinks in. Serbia might start to hate UEFA even more than they already might do, but if UEFA doesn't react to this a lot of other countries will get pissed instead. And quite honestly; how can UEFA justify sending teams (particularly youth teams) to a country where they know there's a good chance it'll go wrong somehow? It's not UEFA's task to make countries like the West, it's UEFA's task to make sure that wherever they make teams play they can do so in a safe and relatively pleasant environment.
That video shows that two players not one as Vuc calims,the number 20 and number 10 both run across the pitch to push Rose. The number 10 is later seen kicking an England player with the studs up on his boots. It should be noted that the reason Rose can't get off the pitch is because Serbian players and staff keep running up to him and he has to keep turning away.
After England’s winner the scorer runs towards half way and is joined by his team mates who are congratulating him. At that point you can see them being pelted with missiles something which the England goalkeeper had endured several times during the second half.
There is no disputing the chanting it’s clearly heard during the game.
After England’s winner the scorer runs towards half way and is joined by his team mates who are congratulating him. At that point you can see them being pelted with missiles something which the England goalkeeper had endured several times during the second half.
There is no disputing the chanting it’s clearly heard during the game.
Fair enough. Didn't expect them to do anything before the hearing. But at the risk of sounding too cynical, they're perhaps doing this with the hope of avoiding any serious punishment like a ban.
Good to see them actually doing something about the incident now at least. A year ban for the players and two for the coach involved are fairly serious bans as well. It will be interesting how UEFA react to this now as any punishment against serbia itself is now likely to be lower as serbia is giving the impression it is looking to do something about the issue it self.
I wonder the very same.
Sacrificial lambs and scapegoats to preserve the whole?
How any matches are they likely to have played in the next 12 months anway?
Whilst it sounds severe and the brawling certainly caught attention, surely it was the racism and then throwing of objects onto the pitch which are the primary areas of concern.
Yep lambs, detracting from the racism.
Still, it's a start and hopefully a sincere one.
Still, it's a start and hopefully a sincere one.
Strange, there's such outrage against Serbia in a U21 match - there was **** all about the Spanish situation a few years back in a friendly international ? double-standards me thinks.
This "holier than thou" approach to racism really p**ses me off
For a start Serbia has a totally different demographic to the UK, as have most of the Eastern European and the Balkan States - they are just not as cosmopolitan as the UK are.
Therefore, why should we expect and demand that these other nations and their citizens behave in a manner that "we" would like immediately, when, in fact, it took the UK a long , long time to get to it's current stance on "racism"....
Sport / Football is not responsible for this, it is socio-political, and if people wish to see nations such as Serbia punished by sending their football teams into total isolation, then I don't think that educates anybody - it's just punishment which will cause antagonism.
This "holier than thou" approach to racism really p**ses me off
For a start Serbia has a totally different demographic to the UK, as have most of the Eastern European and the Balkan States - they are just not as cosmopolitan as the UK are.
Therefore, why should we expect and demand that these other nations and their citizens behave in a manner that "we" would like immediately, when, in fact, it took the UK a long , long time to get to it's current stance on "racism"....
Sport / Football is not responsible for this, it is socio-political, and if people wish to see nations such as Serbia punished by sending their football teams into total isolation, then I don't think that educates anybody - it's just punishment which will cause antagonism.
It's more to do with the fact that there have been a few high profile racist incidents recently which the media picked up and so anything that happens from now on will be bigger news than it was, more people are starting to "come together" and make noise about it than in past experiences.
Oh ok, yeah in some countries I'm sure its fine to rape children. Who are we to tell them not to do it, it's just their culture.
For the record there was outrage when Spanish fans did the monkey chants, this case was compounded by the fact that it had happened before with Serbia u-21s and they started attacking our players and coaching staff after the game.
You know what pisses me off? Apologists for genuine racism
You thinks wrong.
Yeah, people being more educated and less tolerant towards racism, grrrrrr
Ahh, the Suarez defence.
The UK and other countries realised they had a problem and are making strides dealing with it. Oh and the football rule books demand certain levels of behaviour, not specifically the UK. Maybe if they want to play football with everyone else, they should play by the same rules?
I agree, lets just give them a paltry fine and warning. That's bound to work.
Oh, wait...
Hallelujah
keep digging vuc keep digging...
keep digging...I totally missed this incident, but now that I read the whole thread, I dug out the thread in Porto's forum from when we were fined by UEFA earlier this year for monkey chants against City's players in the Europa League. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time, but wanted to know what the general reaction from our fans at the forum was, and if there was admission of guilt from our part. The club's defence was as bad as Serbia's though, trying to argue that the monkey chants were supporting chants for Hulk (the chant for Hulk was actually relatively similar, but it clearly wasn't the case here).
Is this really all there is? Porto paid that €20000 fine and I can't see how UEFA can give a harsher punishment to Serbs with precedents such as these and such a vague law. Sure, paragraph 3 does predict any kind of punishment, but it's extremely vague on when it should be applied. What happened, if we discount the scuffle at the end, really fits only into paragraph 2.
For what it's worth, I was extremely embarrassed with the chants against City, and was glad to see on our forum that most of our fans also were. A few idiots used the "we have black players so we're obviously not racist" defence, but in general, the behaviour was frowned upon.
Portugal, with all it's faults, is fortunately not a racist country. Many ignorants (and we have plenty, being a relatively uneducated country by Western European standards) still have a bit of "soft" racism in them. The "monkey" chants themselves, are probably started by a few bad apples, and then are joined by an unaware crowd who is usually targeting a player they don't like. Hulk was repeatedly targeted by these chants in every ground, as he was a generally disliked player by our opposition. I think in the below example he responded properly to the chants.
What I think it's lacking, is the promotion of fan education. Monkey chants seriously and rightfully unsettle the players being targeted. UEFA slapped us a small fine, we paid it, problem solved? The club should have made a bold campaign towards the fans stating that these chants are strictly forbidden at our ground. If not for a better reason, due to the threat that we can be severely punished for not complying. But I didn't hear a word from our club, it was calmly brushed under the carpet as well.
I don't watch much live football right now, but when I did, these chants were common (and I hated them), and from what I read today, still are, throughout our stadiums. The media couldn't care less, and I never saw any player complaining about it. It's just ignored as a harmless provocation by almost everyone, including non-racists. It's nowhere near the sensitive issue that it is in England.
Is this really all there is? Porto paid that €20000 fine and I can't see how UEFA can give a harsher punishment to Serbs with precedents such as these and such a vague law. Sure, paragraph 3 does predict any kind of punishment, but it's extremely vague on when it should be applied. What happened, if we discount the scuffle at the end, really fits only into paragraph 2.
For what it's worth, I was extremely embarrassed with the chants against City, and was glad to see on our forum that most of our fans also were. A few idiots used the "we have black players so we're obviously not racist" defence, but in general, the behaviour was frowned upon.
Portugal, with all it's faults, is fortunately not a racist country. Many ignorants (and we have plenty, being a relatively uneducated country by Western European standards) still have a bit of "soft" racism in them. The "monkey" chants themselves, are probably started by a few bad apples, and then are joined by an unaware crowd who is usually targeting a player they don't like. Hulk was repeatedly targeted by these chants in every ground, as he was a generally disliked player by our opposition. I think in the below example he responded properly to the chants.
What I think it's lacking, is the promotion of fan education. Monkey chants seriously and rightfully unsettle the players being targeted. UEFA slapped us a small fine, we paid it, problem solved? The club should have made a bold campaign towards the fans stating that these chants are strictly forbidden at our ground. If not for a better reason, due to the threat that we can be severely punished for not complying. But I didn't hear a word from our club, it was calmly brushed under the carpet as well.
I don't watch much live football right now, but when I did, these chants were common (and I hated them), and from what I read today, still are, throughout our stadiums. The media couldn't care less, and I never saw any player complaining about it. It's just ignored as a harmless provocation by almost everyone, including non-racists. It's nowhere near the sensitive issue that it is in England.
Within 3 seconds of video, Danny Rose is getting stuff thrown at him and a Serb runs 50 yards to "push" him in the stomach.
As for the ignorance towards monkey chants argument put forward by Arruda it probably is slightly true. Probably 60% of British 18-21 year olds don't know the Monkey-Black connection, based on arguments about racism at uni.
That said its probably the same as any chants. People know its wrong, but its a bit of fun among friends and no one gets hurt. Hillsborough, Munich, Racism...
As for the ignorance towards monkey chants argument put forward by Arruda it probably is slightly true. Probably 60% of British 18-21 year olds don't know the Monkey-Black connection, based on arguments about racism at uni.
That said its probably the same as any chants. People know its wrong, but its a bit of fun among friends and no one gets hurt. Hillsborough, Munich, Racism...
Yeah, that's not true.
That's not what I meant, I think everyone who chants it knows the monkey-black thing, or else they would sing it to white players as well and that doesn't happen. My "ignorance" point was just to say that most of these people aren't racist in an aggressive (i.e, violent, xenophobe...) way, the sort that wants foreigners out of the country, as of this kind we fortunately have very very little. They are ignorants in the sense that they think it's a bit of "harmless" banter and believe it doesn't reflect racism on their part.
To preserve what? You guys are just not be satisfied, first you didn't expect the FA to do anything, now that something is done, it's again worth nothing because they're only trying to give the impression of doing something while protecting and nurturing their racist culture. Give me a break.
Have they even acknowledged the racism yet? Or are there more videos...