All-time Fantasy Draft - antohan v NM

[Brwned]

I'm playing a 4-3-3 featuring an outstanding back five, the best pair in the draft shielding it, and an attacking setup that would break down any defence.

For clarity, Rijkaard will be onto Pelé like a rash, helping eliminate NMs main creative outlet. Beckenbauer is left to roam freely to wherever he sees fit to protect the defence. Stoichkov & Rivelino will put in a shift against Neeskens & Varela, leaving the central and wide threat from Henry & Laudrup spare, to keep NMs backline from pushing up.

HOW IT WILL BE WON:

Fullbacks: both pairs are excellent defensively, but I have a significant edge in attacking contribution from Inter legends Facchetti & Zanetti.

Centre of the park: NM is completely overrun. My solid defensive setup has been explained. In possession, he is reliant on Neeskens & Pelé dropping back, while Boniek is too busy tracking Facchetti to help out. Varela will be a passenger, NM clearly doesn't know much about the player he picked. He picked a leader of Uruguayans, when he doesn't need a leader and he won't gel with or inspire his bunch of "japoneses".

Complementary partnerships and movement upfront: Laudrup & Stoichkov formed a devastating axis for Barca’s Dream Team. Stoichkov & Henry can easily interchange and with Rivelino can help Facchetti double up. Laudrup will alternate central and wide position to make room for Zanetti or Beckenbauer charging forward.

Better counterattacking setup: I can move up the pitch quickly through the centre or the flanks, while keeping a solid two-tiered four at the back, all of them with pace and excellent reading of the game. I’m particularly looking forward to Passarella venturing forward and getting caught upfield. While there’s no better than Figueroa to cover, Passarella was so slow I would easily have a numerical advantage facing him.

Goalkeeper: NMs goalkeeper played in the 1920s, those were slow surfaces, heavy balls and smaller goals. He will struggle.

Bench strength: All my subs bar one can come on without a specific player having to leave and that one is in the same position (handy for tiredness, injuries, etc.). In practice, Iniesta is expected to come on in the 2nd half so that his relentless pressing and linkup are utilised once the opposition is tired. Rivelino is the man to start when NM is readying himself to turn the midfield into a war zone (or so he says).

SUBS: Andrade, Effenberg, Iniesta, Erico, Fabregas

IN ATTACK

Spoiler

WHEN BECKENBAUER GOES FORWARD WHEN BECKENBAUER STAYS DEEP

PLAYER PROFILES

Team Antohan

Team NM

Player Profiles

https://www.redcafe.net/f7/all-time-fantasy-draft-365063/index70.html#post12917581

https://www.redcafe.net/f7/all-time-fantasy-draft-365063/index70.html#post12917584

https://www.redcafe.net/f7/all-time-fantasy-draft-365063/index84.html#post12946965

Why I will win:

- The best defense in the draft

- An amazing attack of Pele and Kalle

- A midfield that can battle any in the world. Plus with Passarella stepping forward and one of Anto's midfielders having to watch Pele - I daresay my midfield will have no problem

- Two worldclass wingers in Boniek and Blokhin - both who are unafraid to put a shift in

- The best dribblers in the draft

- World class defense, a midfield to battle any, world class wingers, one of the best strikers ever and the best player ever.

 

[shaggy]

Can't vote on this one as haven't heard of virtually all of NM's team. Antohan's team looks amazing though. Good luck.

 

[antohan]

Reason why Varela will be anonymous

He had a visceral dislike for all things foreign, which is why he called any and all foreigners “japoneses” (Japanese). The moment they weren’t Uruguayan he didn’t care from how close or far away, they were all the same: aliens.

Once he was tempted by an offer from Argentina, went to BA but never signed, homesick within hours of arriving. He felt they were all weird people with different codes, and that’s Argentinians he was not gelling with. Think Rush banging on about Juve being “like being in a different country”, and multiply by 100.

His main asset when motivating players was his ability to create an “us and them” siege mentality. He didn’t do that through rousing speeches but through building rapport, finding common ground, shared beliefs, etc. His leadership talk was peppered with idiosyncrasies, things that only he and the other contemporary Uruguayan players shared and would make them connect instantly. That connection meant he sometimes didn’t even have to talk, a knowing glance would suffice… All that is shot to pieces the moment he is not captaining the Uruguayan national team but an ABU (All-But-Uruguay) set of colleagues. How does a cultural misfit get through to those he is meant to inspire like no other captain ever has inspired a side?

Just imagine how effective his motivational techniques would be… For example, go tell Maldini, Neeskens, Kalle, Boniek and Blokhin to get their johnsons out and group-piss on newspaper photos of my team. Yeah, that will work . And that’s 70% of what there was to him. Gone.

Then another 20% was intimidating the opposition. No, not kicking lumps, he actually was quite honest, yet hard, in the tackle. It was simply that through his sheer presence when looking at them he put the fear of God into them. Will that work with Stoichkov, Beckenbauer, Rijkaard and Rivelino? The feck it will. Mind you, it’s the reason we’ve kept Iniesta on the bench to come on later in the game when he has seen there’s nothing to worry about and his relentless pressing is more effective on worn out midfielders.

So what is on the pitch is the other 10%, a slow and technically limited midfielder who would never keep up with the modern game. Rather than the all-action midfielder NM believes to have, he actually had to manage his exertions during the game as he was asthmatic. He did have a very good shot on his right peg though.

He was rejected after trials at both Peñarol and Nacional and almost quit football until a minor side took him on. Over time, Peñarol realised what NM hasn't, that yes he was limited, but he got everyone to give 120%. Unfortunately for NM, that was all down to a leadership style that simply won't work with a multinational all-era all-star side with nothing in common. In short, he was a man for his countrymen, his time, his context, and mastered that to great effect like no other captain ever has, or will.

Let’s be clear, he absolutely deserves to be up there with the very best ever. What is remarkable about him though is not his ability as a footballer, he wouldn’t make the Top 500 on that basis. What is remarkable is that despite those limitations he mastered the psychological part of the game like no other. It wasn’t just his mentality but the one he instilled on every single one in his XI, and the damage inflicted on rivals. On that basis, he is the best ever, by a long country mile, but none of that is even remotely relevant here. He reckons he is playing with a bunch of feckwits, and the ten feckwits think he is out of his depth.

Crass misuse of our dear captain

 

[antohan]

Can't vote on this one as haven't heard of virtually all of NM's team. Antohan's team looks amazing though. Good luck.

You know how many in the same situation will just say "Wow, Pelé!".

 

[antohan]

NM has packed his wingers into midfield to make it look solid enough.

Blokhin is completely out of position, he was more a striker or wing forward than a winger, let alone a left midfielder.

Boniek is completely misused where he is, he will spend all game running around like a headless chicken but having little or no impact. He will effectively be no more than a wing back, shame.

You have two Boniek's: the one that showed up with important goals in big European nights and the one who looked (but wasn't in my view) anonymous week in week out in league games. Both were the result of Juve setting up differently and utilising him differently. NM has now invented a third way of using Boniek which nullifies his threat altogether.

Varela is a passenger, don't know what he was thinking. Does he know what Varela's game was all about?

 

[Jayvin]

Why I will win:

- The best defense in the draft

Hardly. It's at best on a par with Antohans. Brwned's defence was the best in the draft, and he got eliminated.

- World class defense, a midfield to battle any, world class wingers, one of the best strikers ever and the best player ever.

Eh? It's the ALL TIME fantasy draft, unless you've fecked up, every player should be World Class.

 

[Cling Bak]

Team Antohan

What a team.

I think I'd have had Laudrup centrally and Rivelinho wide, myself. But I'm sure it's not making much difference because your front four can rotate and all play any of those positions at will.​

 

[antohan]

What a team.

I think I'd have had Laudrup centrally and Rivelinho wide, myself. But I'm sure it's not making much difference because your front four can rotate and all play any of those positions at will.

Indeed, going forward they can pretty much drive any defence mental.

Rivelino over Laudrup in midfield is primarily down to his workrate in midfield. He will put in a shift, he was a tough bloke and one of the few Brazilians I admire for the way he kept coming back for more if kicked around. You will find few Brazilian players a Uruguayan has time for on that basis!

That's why Iniesta has been reserved for a second half stint when everyone is more tired. In the early exchanges I need strong players of real character imposing themselves on the game.

I came here to see Pelé and ended up watching Rivelino

I grew up as an Argentinian kid, but with a Brazilian as my idol. His name? Rivelino. Everyone talked about Pelé, and I take my hat off, great player, but I didn't care what Pelé was doing, my eyes were all for Rivelino on the other side of the pitch. His left foot, his elegance, his rebelliousness... He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfectly accurate, and his shots unstoppable. And he did everything with his left foot. It didn’t matter if his right foot was only good to stand on, because there was nothing he couldn’t do with his left. To me it was beautiful.

I have to say he was better than me at that. It was like the ball was glued to his foot, he would pull it one way then back and VOOM!, off he went on a run. Really impressive. Amazing.

 

[antohan]

NM/Theon, have voted for me as I can't be bothered with the clicking to see the score

 

[antohan]

Care to provide any feedback duffer and crappycrap?

 

[Fergus' son]

Hardly. It's at best on a par with Antohans. Brwned's defence was the best in the draft, and he got eliminated.



Eh? It's the ALL TIME fantasy draft, unless you've fecked up, every player should be World Class.

Vasovic and Ferdinand vs Passarella and Figueroa is a mismatch, the latter are better by a little distance.

Also, Stoichkov and Rivelino vs Varela and Neeskens looks like it favours NMs team...

 

[Thisistheone]

Really like the look of anto's team. Strong all round, no real weakness except maybe there's not a natural no.9 in there and Stoichkov, Laudrup & Henry might get in each other's way at times. But that probably won't be a big problem.

NM's defence is superb. I can see anto forcing NM deeper and deeper as Rijkaard and Beckenbauer surely start to dictate the tempo. Facchetti bombing down the flank will also cause big problems because when a team sits deep, extra width is the ideal way to open them up and stretch them.

Going to wait to hear from NM & Theon though before doing anything else right now.

 

[antohan]

Vasovic and Ferdinand vs Passarella and Figueroa is a mismatch, the latter are better by a little distance.

Antohan, I found your criticisms of Varela quite lazy, why exactly is he passenger? Also, Stoichkov and Rivelino vs Varela and Neeskens looks like it favours NMs team...

Re: Varela. Just posted it further up on third post. Didn't want to go into detail unless it was absolutely necessary but I agree it doesn't tell you much as it is.

Both for the defenders and the midfielders you have to assess what they are up against and in what context.

Stoichkov and Rivelino will primarily focus on pressing Neeskens as he is the dangerous one out of those two. Of course, as a defensive player Neeskens is superior to both, but the point here is not who is better defensively, it's that when Neeskens is on the ball he is being harassed by those two and not allowed to have too much of an impact. As far as Varela is concerned, the only danger he poses is a long shot, which either of those two tracking an advance by him can prevent. I don't need Makelele to stop a DM shooting.

And you have to remember I have Beckenbauer spare to cover any gaps/loose men. I'd much rather Beckenbauer was doing that than pressing Neeskens, both Stoichkov and Rivelino are perfectly suitable for that job. Stoichkov in particular was an aggressive fecker, which is exactly the sort of treatment Neeskens requires

Regarding the central pair I agree with you as individuals. If I were going into a league season I would fancy his pair more (primarily Figueroa, mind). That's when the whole "classy + steel" stuff is relevant because this week you get Henry but next week you get Drogba as a battering ram.

For one specific game though, what matters is what is directly in front of you and my central pair are perfectly suited to deal with his threat. I fancied Vasovic-Ferdinand (excellent game readers) to be a superb pair to deal with Boniek's chaos-enducing endeavours. Not that it matters because he will wind up playing wingback where he is.

On the other hand, Passarella is not the quickest around and is liable to get caught in no man's land. A disaster waiting to happen with such a blistering attacking force. Figueroa is one of the best he could hope for for cover, but he will get doubled up on.

 

[Theon]

Christ, what a disgrace. The amount of bollocks you talk in these threads is unbearable, you did the exact same with Gio. NM's still ill and I'm not around today so gonna be not much activity.

Stoichov and Rivelino will get dominated by Varela and Neeskens, is Rijkaard is on Pele then Beckenbauer isn't left to dictate, he's left isolated to get smothered. Boniek and Blokhin are playing on the wings, they aren't misused in the slightest. You've just jumped on NM's picture and looked to make a point, read his player profiles they are playing as wingers. You talk about an interchangeable attack when ours is much more so, Pele can move up top or deep and the other three can play any position across the front line. Vasovic and Ferdinand are outclassed at this level, its probably the worst partnership left in the game.. but of course, according to you they are more suited to this match. Unreal. Henry is also outclassed here, Passarella moving to tackle him and Figueroa covering, it's the best partnership possible, as you said yourself a few months ago. Two time Ballon d'or winner Rummenigge is a better striker than Henry and with the genius of Pele he will get chances. Your views on Varela are shameful when you would be spouting the complete opposite in different circumstances.

 

[antohan]

Christ, what a disgrace. The amount of bollocks you talk in these threads is unbearable, you did the exact same with Gio.

There was no bollocks associated with Nordahl in that thread either, just very clear stats showing he was a great striker but not as great as being made out to be.

Tell me what is bollocks about what I said on Varela. You quite clearly know nothing about him and his game so you decide it's all bollocks.

It's simple mate, if you go blind and pick someone you don't know the last thing about while your opponent is bound to know everything about him you are setting yourself up for a fall.

I don't think you can read Spanish but anyone who can can vouch for this article by a former Peñarol trainee who really looks up to him pretty much supporting most of my points, particularly the "limited player" bit. You even think he could play centre-back FFS!

NM's still ill and I'm not around today so gonna be not much activity.

I've told NM to get himself to hospital and stop worrying about a fantasy game, you are a more than competent AM. I guess your unavailability today is why you went off the radar yesterday with the teamsheet and tactics he had put time into despite being sick. Should have started this game yesterday instead of pissing around with us all day.

Stoichov and Rivelino will get dominated by Varela and Neeskens, is Rijkaard is on Pele then Beckenbauer isn't left to dictate, he's left isolated to get smothered.

Now THAT I call bollocks. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Boniek and Blokhin are playing on the wings, they aren't misused in the slightest. You've just jumped on NM's picture and looked to make a point, read his player profiles they are playing as wingers.

You put them in midfield, even tucked in from the wing because you know full well you are lightweight in midfield. You can't claim they are playing as wingers and attacking all game long but also wide midfielders. They'll be largely ineffective as it is.

You talk about an interchangeable attack when ours is much more so, Pele can move up top or deep and the other three can play any position across the front line.

You have two of those in fecking midfield! I also have two players who linked up to good effect making their team "The Dream Team", how about that?

FFS, you probably don't even know Blokhin and Boniek are not particularly adept crossers. They can do it sure, but that's not what their game was about. I'm not sure you know what it was about TBH seeing as they are in midfield.

Vasovic and Ferdinand are outclassed at this level, its probably the worst partnership left in the game.. but of course, according to you they are more suited to this match. Unreal.

They are well suited to this match if you were playing it right, but you are not even giving them something to think about.

Henry is also outclassed here

And I'm the one talking bollocks. He works perfectly with players of Laudrup's and Stoichkov's class and is ideal to keep your right side defenders pegged back all game while Laudrup does the same on the left.

Passarella moving to tackle him and Figueroa covering, it's the best partnership possible, as you said yourself a few months ago.

It's a great pair and inidvidually better than mine. My only question mark is if Passarella keeps foraging forward -as you say he will- even Figueroa won't be enough because Passarella was too slow to get back before he gets outnumbered and turned over.

It's a tactical decision of yours which creates that liability.

Two time Ballon d'or winner Rummenigge is a better striker than Henry and with the genius of Pele he will get chances.

Henry's record at his peak was every bit as good. It's actually a travesty he never got the Ballon d'Or because he was quite simply the best around in his peak years and arguably the best player in the Premiership since inception.

Pelé is a genius but has the best possible man onto him, and the best possible libero keeping tabs on everything. Your creativity is shot.

Your views on Varela are shameful when you would be spouting the complete opposite in different circumstances.

I have nothing but admiration for the man, as anyone reaading my post objectively can tell. I go into great pains to point out just how good he was. I doubt his legacy is tainted by some fantasy manager playing him as a complete misfit in an All-time team.

 

[antohan]

BTW, Theon, you can vote if it makes it easier to track.

We just won't count my vote, Nms, yours or Aldo's.

 

[Brwned]

What a team.

I think I'd have had Laudrup centrally and Rivelinho wide, myself. But I'm sure it's not making much difference because your front four can rotate and all play any of those positions at will.

How come? Laudrup's best form came on the opposing wing to Stoichkov and Rivelino's lack of pace would count against him out there. He was good in '70 in that sort of tucked-in wide midfielder role that Giggs was so good in back in 2006, but most of his best work was done from deep and down the middle.

 

[antohan]

Skorenzy, any feedback? I actually rate your views.

 

[antohan]

How come? Laudrup's best form came on the opposing wing to Stoichkov and Rivelino's lack of pace would count against him out there. He was good in '70 in that sort of tucked-in wide midfielder role that Giggs was so good in back in 2006, but most of his best work was done from deep and down the middle.

While agreeing with the post overall, I would qualify "lack of pace". He wasn't noted for his pace certainly (no slouch either) but his acceleration from a standing start -more precisely, his change of rythm whether acceleration or stopping on his tracks- was breath-taking.

Just watch the very first move there, he seems to be doing a Valencia eye-balling contest... and then he is off.

 

[KM]

Did Henry every played as a lone striker in the team?

Wasn't he always part of a two man attack for eg with Bergkamp, Trezeguet, Wiltord etc?

He sticks out like a sore thumb to me. NM's defense is excellent and attack is brilliant, however the combination of Kaiser and Rijkaard means Anto's midfield is controlling the match.

 

[antohan]

Did Henry every played as a lone striker in the team?

Wasn't he always part of a two man attack for eg with Bergkamp, Trezeguet, Wiltord etc?

The relative positions are somewhat notional average positions. I do make a point of keeping Stoichkov and Laudrup tucked relatively close though because it definitely isn't a case of Henry being up there all on his own.

As I said, when he has the ball I'm keeping Henry and Laudrup upfront to keep his defence pegged back. No chance Passarella and Figueroa could hold a defensive high line against Henry, it would be insane. And both can take advantage of a quick counter ball down either flank if left unguarded. Stoichkov drops into midfield to help with ball recovery/transition and particularly pressing Neeskens.

When I'm in possession, I actually posted two graphics (see before teamsheet) showing how it would work roughly (as I mention, they are interchangeable and you will occasionally, if not regularly, have Henry left and Stoichkov right). Stoichkov would be acting as the second striker you are referring to. It's pretty much what he did for Barca to a tee (both the with ball and without ball tasks).

I even mulled over swapping Stoichkov and Henry to make Henry's wide threat clearer but it made no sense that the tip of that trident was the one tracking back when without the ball.

Effectively, it would look more like him with Bergkamp with regards to Laudrup

From more than hundred goals that I scored I'm sure that over 50 were assisted by Michael. To play with him was extremely easy. We found each other by intuition on the field and found common football language. Look at Ivan Zamorano. Laudrup went there (Real) and Zamorano is a goalscorer. Sometimes I envy Ivan for the passes he receives. Passes on foot after you accelerated. Few people understand football like the Danish player. He can only be compared with Maradona, Schuster or Roberto Baggio. They make things easy and find the right solutions. For them is simple, for the opponent - unthinkable. Phenomenal!

Meanwhile, Stoichkov was a miles better attacker to play in tandem with than either of the other ones you mentioned.


If that's too short you can get 45 minutes of goals for Barca here

 

[NM]

I will reply when i can. Just want to point out that anto attacking Passarella is nothing short of fraud considering how much he sang his praises in an earlier draft when he was on his team..

Also want to thank Anto for letting me push this back a little bit. He has been very sporting in doing so.

 

[NM]

Also I won't be online till late evening/night UK time. Will post replies then. Good game so far. Anto has a good team but so do i. With that, I'm out. good luck all

 

[antohan]

I will reply when i can. Just want to point out that anto attacking Passarella is nothing short of fraud considering how much he sang his praises in an earlier draft when he was on his team..

I sang his praises in this uber-conservative setups against a lone striker. Very different situations.

Semi-final vs. Gio:

vs. Brwned in the Final. Had started with a back four and got rightly called out on Passarella looking potentially dodgy (despite Mc Grath covering against a static "wait-for-someone-to-put-the-right-ball-in" striker in Hugo Sánchez). Still, it led to this switch as no one seemed to rate Allan Simonsen as highly as I did:

You guys keep accusing me of talking bollocks and fraudulent claims but I only see fraudulent unsubstantiated claims from one side here.

Also want to thank Anto for letting me push this back a little bit. He has been very sporting in doing so.

Kudos mate, I've said before you look like a cracking manager in the making. Reckon the whole fraud thing above is your AMs influence and not you.

I would have happily waited for later today or tomorrow but had already established early in the week I would be off for four days starting tonight.

I would also have waited for next week but I really think you should focus on getting yourself seen to properly and recovering. Leaving this in the back of your mind for days was not going to help.

Get well.

 

[antohan]

Also I won't be online till late evening/night UK time. Will post replies then. Good game so far. Anto has a good team but so do i. With that, I'm out. good luck all

Shame, as by then I won't be around to reply to the replies...

No worries, I reckon things are sufficiently clear for people to make up their minds. It's just going to be like watching paint dry for me

Get yourself checked out first and foremost

 

[Theon]

Did Henry every played as a lone striker in the team?

Wasn't he always part of a two man attack for eg with Bergkamp, Trezeguet, Wiltord etc?

He sticks out like a sore thumb to me. NM's defense is excellent and attack is brilliant, however the combination of Kaiser and Rijkaard means Anto's midfield is controlling the match.

Don't be silly, Henry isn't playing as a lone striker. This is Antohan's side remember. Stoichkov is running that left flank, supporting Henry and doing a job on Varela and Neeskens..

His formation shows Henry as a lone striker, but for Anto the formation isn't important, his players can play multiple roles.

For NM though, Boniek and Blokhin are stuck where they are.

You can't claim they are playing as wingers and attacking all game long but also wide midfielders.

 

[Theon]

You even think he could play centre-back FFS!

Stop with the rubbish, you've turned this into a farce. Where did I say he could play centre back? MBR did here, but I never did.

I'd expect Varela to sit deeper when he does so, particularly as the man could play centre-back and by all accounts was a gargantuan six foot in those days.

Your views on Varela are ridiculous and would be the exact opposite if you had him in the team. You're making out he's some sort of no-mark footballer when he's known as one of the best midfielders of all time.

IFFHS who you have quoted before ranked him as the 13th greatest south american footballer of all time - yet you're portraying him as some sort of amateur.

 

[antohan]

Larger goals, faster surfaces, faster balls, Rivelino's Atomic Kick... and a 1920s keeper meant to stop it.

Surprised no one has commented on that.

And no, it's not unfair or bollocks, it's staring straight at your face and it wasn't me picking their goalkeeper ahead of Planicka or Grosics (who at least wouldn't be Spanish) or any decent keeper from the last 20-30 years.

To name a few: Oscar Córdoba, Brad Friedel or Juusi Jaaskelainen would do a better job than someone picked because a Goalkeeping Award is named after him. On a greats basis Boca and Colombia fans would argue Córdoba is not out of place here.

 

[Theon]

NM's keeper is ranked as the 5th best of all time, yet you're turning that into a negative? The Spanish rank him higher than even Casillas, despite his achievements with the national team. Says it all really, he was the undisputed best of his entire generation.

 

[antohan]

Don't be silly, Henry isn't playing as a lone striker. This is Antohan's side remember. Stoichkov is running that left flank, supporting Henry and doing a job on Varela and Neeskens..

His formation shows Henry as a lone striker, but for Anto the formation isn't important, his players can play multiple roles.

For NM though, Boniek and Blokhin are stuck where they are.

You didn't get the bit about average positions and bearing in mind what the players are good at. Stoichkov did precisely everything I described and anyone who ever watched that Barca side can vouch for it, he had an immense workrate.

Blokhin and Boniek ARE completely misplaced because one is a wing-forward/striker and the other one can be many things but where you placed him anyone who watched him week in week out for Juve will tell you he will end up playing wing-back. Notice I actually said Boniek was misused rather than misplaced. He was not the most tactically-disciplined player (which you would know but probably don't, still haven't answered why he performed so differently in Europe and in the league because, frankly, you don't know your man. Hint: look at the different ways I used him in the teamsheets above).

It's not particularly complex. Take Wayne Rooney, would you put his shirt in midfield? No chance. Would you expect him not to both attack (be it centrally or wide as the opportunity dictates) and press when without the ball if positioned where Stoichkov is? Sure you would.

 

[antohan]

Stop with the rubbish, you've turned this into a farce. Where did I say he could play centre back? MBR did here, but I never did.

I stand corrected. I knew it had been said, didn't remember it was the prior manager. Will delete that from my post. It was rather immaterial anyway.

Your views on Varela are ridiculous and would be the exact opposite if you had him in the team. You're making out he's some sort of no-mark footballer when he's known as one of the best midfielders of all time.

IFFHS who you have quoted before ranked him as the 13th greatest south american footballer of all time - yet you're portraying him as some sort of amateur.

Read it again, objectively, I'm not making him out to be a no-mark footballer but laying out the reasons he was arguably the best captain and midfield enforcer of all-time under very specific circumstances. As an individual footballer to slot into any random team he was indeed rather average.

IFFHS doesn't assess Varela's ability to play in your team, it assesses the impact a player has made on football, his achievements, whether they left their mark... Varela definitely deserves that sort of rank.

They are two different things but you refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[antohan]

NM's keeper is ranked as the 5th best of all time, yet you're turning that into a negative? The Spanish rank him higher than even Casillas, despite his achievements with the national team. Says it all really, he was the undisputed best of his entire generation.

I'm sure Zamora was a tremendous keeper back in the day. His position is probably the one that is less transferable to these days though.

Of course, I'm assuming we are playing on modern pitches with modern balls, otherwise Messi would have some trouble doing what he does.

 

[antohan]

So that's four votes against now with none giving a reason

 

[Balu]

I really don't get your Beckenbauer-is-moving-forward formation, Antohan. Do you really think he'd leave his position when the penalty box is already that crowded?

I'd say, Beckenbauer would link up with Laudrup or Stoichkov running into the box, while Henry went wide, Rivelinho maybe deep to draw at least some of the defenders/defensive midfielders out of the dangerous area. What's Beckenbauer going to do, when basically everyone rushes forward, so the opponent is forced to defend deep with lots of players crowding the area in front of him? He doesn't need to be that close to the penalty area to influence the attack with his passing, imo.

 

[Fergus' son]

Rijkaard is busy with Pele, that leaves Stoichkov and Rivelino doing a job on Varela and Neeskens is a mis match IMO (Beckenbauer will have to get involved) which limits all threes ability to influence the game going forward as much as antohan needs them to. Whist Stoichkov is running around after Neeskens it will reduce Fachettis influence, as Thuram can concentrate on him and not much else (Henry coming out left will leave the CF position isolated).

So it comes down to the defences for me, I'd back NMs to deal with the remaining threats whilst I think Pele would eventually get the better of Rijkaard and he and Rumenigge will cause many problems to Antos defence.

Beckenbauer is doing too much defending, his partner has a man marking job and he has Fachetti to cover. He's wasted.

 

[Theon]

It's not particularly complex. Take Wayne Rooney, would you put his shirt in midfield? No chance.

This is absurd.

Boniek and Blokhin are wingers and are positioned where it's regular to position them. Look at Cutch's team yesterday, Best and Figo were in the exact same position. I'm not sure why NM drew the formation that way, probably was thinking along the same line as Cutch that they would be better starting deeper. It's a marginal difference of about 5/10 yards.

Boniek and Blokhin are two world class wingers, probably the best right and left winger during the entire 1980's. They are more than capable of getting forward to attack.

 

[Theon]

The two most important players in this team that people should acknowledge is Figueroa and Passarella, even more than Pele.

Antohan himself in a thread about 3 months ago said the best possible centre back partnership of all time was either Passarella/Figueroa or Scirea/Baresi. Yet here he is trying to downplay the partnership.

Brwned's view from the same thread

Yeah, but Figueroa's the kind of player than even a 5 year old could see is a bit special. Up against Beckenbauer he out-played and maybe even outclassed him. He was just a supremely elegant and intelligent footballer and of course an inspirational leader. Playing in South America shouldn't be held against anyone pre-90s, IMO. Most of the best ones did but in the world stage you could still see they were a class above 'proven' Europeans. I don't think there was a gulf in class between the two continents until the mid-80s at the earliest, certainly not in the 60s and 70s in my view.

Don Elias in the 1974 World Cup

 

[antohan]

I really don't get your Beckenbauer-is-moving-forward formation, Antohan. Do you really think he'd leave his position when the penalty box is already that crowded?

He may or may not. He is a libero and an exceptional footballer. I'll leave him to do as he pleases.

My expectation is that sometimes he will be attacking space and end up there (and then Zanetti covers for his absence), or the transition will take place elsewhere and he will decide to stay back and let Zanetti bomb forward.

It's not complex. Basically once I'm in possession Zanetti pushes forward up to a certain level and carries on or not subject to what Beckenbauer has decided to do. Unless he is the one carrying the ball, in which case Beckenbauer will just watch him go up the flank, stay available and gradually disengage himself from the attack.

I'd say, Beckenbauer would link up with Laudrup or Stoichkov running into the box, while Henry went wide, Rivelinho maybe deep to draw at least some of the defenders/defensive midfielders out of the dangerous area. What's Beckenbauer going to do, when basically everyone rushes forward, so the opponent is forced to defend deep with lots of players crowding the area in front of him? He doesn't need to be that close to the penalty area to influence the attack with his passing, imo.

I agree. I prefer it when Beckenbauer is staying back and Zanetti pushes forward but I trust him to make the right decisions throughout the game rather than rigidly tell one or the other what they can or can't do in that sense. The only thing they CAN'T do is both go up at the same time.

 

[antohan]

Beckenbauer will have to get involved

At times he will, I'm not assigning him a specific player though as it makes no sense. Is NM attacking down the right/left/centre? Is anyone utterly free? That dictates what Beckenbauer will be doing.

Limits all threes ability to influence the game going forward as much as antohan needs them to. Whist Stoichkov is running around after Neeskens it will reduce Fachettis influence

No it won't because Facchetti can't influence my attack if I don't have the ball. If I do have the ball then Stoichkov isn't running after Neeskens but rather it is Neeskens running after Stoichkov. Sometimes we really seem to get tied up in knots with the attacking and defending phases, I don't understand why.

Thuram can concentrate on him and not much else (Henry coming out left will leave the CF position isolated).

If Henry is out left then that is precisely why Thuram can't do any attacking. But no, I didn't say Henry (nor Laudrup) would go and stand on the touchline. They could but it's a very static view of things.

Henry and Laudrup are available upfront. If I get the ball back they will immediately move wherever there is space. If Thuram has attacked, then that's where Henry will head, likewise with Laudrup and Maldini. I don't care if I leave the CF with little to do, why would I want them to have something to do? I want to run into space and receive the ball unchallenged!!!! Equally, if the CBs have pushed up I'll play the ball behind their backs for Henry to run onto.

I'm actually describing basic counterattacking play here, not some weird scientific shit. I don't actually expect to get much joy fromt that though as all of that back four will be intelligent enough not to cock up so royally and instinctively both Thuram and Maldini are defensive, not attacking players. I'm just stressing the ability of those two left upfront to exploit any gap across the frontline and how that will keep them conservative and not contributing much upfront.

So it comes down to the defences for me, I'd back NMs to deal with the remaining threats whilst I think Pele would eventually get the better of Rijkaard and he and Rumenigge will cause many problems to Antos defence.

This I have nothing to complain about. Those two can cause problems to anyone, I'm setting up in a way where I believe they would be minimised though. I think you are underrating the ability of my frontmen + fullbacks to unlock NM though.

Beckenbauer is doing too much defending, his partner has a man marking job and he has Fachetti to cover. He's wasted.

Facchetti requires no significant cover because Boniek will be at the other end of the pitch helping Thuram. That is instinctively what he would do, that's what he has always done, and that is certainly what he will be doing full time if deployed as a right-sided central midfielder.

Alternatively you can argue Boniek won't track back (despite it being against everything we know about him and the order to get stuck in he has been given), in which case Thuram has the most difficult job in history having to deal with the collective threat of Facchetti, Rivelino, Stoichkov and Henry (they won't all run into a cul-de-sac, I assume that doesn't need explaining, but they are all comfortable out wide and will keep providing alternative link-up options there).

Thanks for the feedback though, appreciate knowing the reasoning, whether I agree with it or not.

 

[antohan]

This is absurd.

Boniek and Blokhin are wingers and are positioned where it's regular to position them. Look at Cutch's team yesterday, Best and Figo were in the exact same position. I'm not sure why NM drew the formation that way, probably was thinking along the same line as Cutch that they would be better starting deeper. It's a marginal difference of about 5/10 yards.

The fundamental difference is that Cutch explained very clearly that he had positioned them in a 4-4-1-1 because he wanted them to make runs from deep. He wanted them to make themselves constantly available around that area. It made an awful lot of sense since his midfield were already under enough pressure and you couldn't expect Redondo to ALSO keep pinging Hollywood passes to them.

A crucial difference though is that at no point did Cutch try to imply they were getting involved or contributing much to the midfield battle, which you do. He was asking them to be in the immediacy, making themselves available for a simple pass, not getting them stuck in the thick of it.

I don't think that suits either player at all. I have not questioned their quality but how they are being used. Again, I know Boniek inside out and some will say I bummed him excessively in the 50s draft. You are not utilising him to the best of his abilities though, he was only nominally a winger in fairness.

I'm still waiting to hear how you plan to use him: the European Juve setup or the Serie A Juve setup. Right now you are doing neither, mind.