Is our plan just to throw money at everything?

mic.m

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I'm concerned with fees being mentioned with regards to our transfer targets. Cavalho £35m, Shaw £30m, Kroos £40m + £260k/week. Our kitty is said to be anything between £150-200m

I know our squad needs significant additions. However we have gone from Fergie's no value in the market, feck agent fees extreme to the other extreme of sugar daddy, government subsidised spend whatever it takes extreme. In the past before the debt the strategy was 1-2 significant buys to complement young players and home grown products. I'm nervous about our summer spending.

If some of these signings flop we can't afford to discard like Real, City and Chelsea do. We can't afford to splurge every summer. Another issue is our manager. Will he be here next season? How will his team play? Then there is the issue of Lingard, Powell and other youngsters who need to be given a fair shot just like Welbeck, Cleverly, Januzaj, Jones have.
 
The Glazers dont spent and we complain.

Then they spend and we still complain!
 
It seems slightly bizarre that after years of being stingy the Glazers are sanctioning big money spendings. I guess it just shows how big their fear is of becoming a losing brand that cannot attract big money sponsors and commercial partners. They'd rather gamble, that by spending now we'll make it back later by winning stuff, than see us become a seventh placed team that the big money corporates aren't interested in backing with £££.

But if the problem is the manager all the money in the world wont solve the issue. We already have the players we need to play beautiful football e.g. Mata, Kagawa, Januzaj but Moyes hasn't had the guts to sacrifice the big names to play them. Say we do go out and buy Marco Reus are we going to see Moyes attempt to try and turn him into a wide left because he won't drop Rooney or Van Persie? Is trying to make Mata and Reus the new Giggs and Beckham going to work?

I go back to what Gary Neville said when he complained the problem was not going to be solved just by money. There's a lack of a plan and a lack of identity and the manager needs to get a grip and show he can solve that riddle. Otherwise we'll end up like Real Madrid did 10 years ago: Buying Galaticos that don't fit any plan and having our weaknesses exposed and exploited by other more balanced sides.
 
mic.m said:
I'm concerned with fees being mentioned with regards to our transfer targets. Cavalho £35m, Shaw £30m, Kroos £40m + £260k/week. Our kitty is said to be anything between £150-200m

I know our squad needs significant additions. However we have gone from Fergie's no value in the market, feck agent fees extreme to the other extreme of sugar daddy, government subsidised spend whatever it takes extreme. In the past before the debt the strategy was 1-2 significant buys to complement young players and home grown products. I'm nervous about our summer spending.

If some of these signings flop we can't afford to discard like Real, City and Chelsea do. We can't afford to splurge every summer. Another issue is our manager. Will he be here next season? How will his team play? Then there is the issue of Lingard, Powell and other youngsters who need to be given a fair shot just like Welbeck, Cleverly, Januzaj, Jones have.
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The squad is going to be seriously depleted. Even if they're still around the former world class players like Giggs/Evra/Ferdinand/Vidic are going to be really hard to be replaced.

As well as this we're numbers down from squad players who are going because they're not seen as good enough. Fabio/Anderson and apparently Nani are going. Players like Carrick and Fletcher are getting to the age where they can't do what they do week in week out.

We have a lot of gaps in our playing squad. Some other players might be shipped out as well.
 
mic.m said:
If some of these signings flop we can't afford to discard like Real, City and Chelsea do. We can't afford to splurge every summer. Another issue is our manager. Will he be here next season? How will his team play? Then there is the issue of Lingard, Powell and other youngsters who need to be given a fair shot just like Welbeck, Cleverly, Januzaj, Jones have.
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Our financial position is similar to that of Real and better than City or Chelsea. There's a long debate raging elsewhere on this forum about whether FFP has any teeth or not. But if we assume for a moment it does, then we have equal or better spending power compared to all the other clubs.

That is not to say we should spend unwisely.
 
Its the only way you're going to compete without Champions League football.
 
A new manager coming in usually means a temporary increase in spending. However, if we managed to get a CM and LB when we actually needed to, the spending would have been a lot less.
 
The frustrating thing is that we don't need to spend obscene amounts this summer.

The squad as it stands with some competent man management will easily place us in the top 4. Add a couple of signings in key position and it easily turns into a realistic title challenge.

We're only looking to spend stupid amounts to paper over the obvious shortcomings of a manager and coaching staff who are out of their depth.
 
We are going to be losing a massive core of our squad that has been absolutely vital to our recent success. A massive amount of money was always going to be needed to rectify the situation. Some of the fees mentioned do seem ludicrous, but for example, look at the ages of Shaw and Carvalho; both are young and would be long-term signings. Rio cost an awful lot of money, but look at the return we got on him. Shaw could be similar.

I don't really care how much we spend, as long as the signings are well thought through long-term investments that will be intrigated into what will be our 'new look' team. The transfer market nowadays is a totally different beast to what it once was.

Fellaini was a poor piece of business, but once that kind of mistake is avoided, we should pay what we have to pay.
 
At the end of the day we can afford it. We make far more money than any other club in the league and if we'd spent in line with our turnover over the last 10 years I think we'd be talking in terms of winning 5 or 6 titles in a row. It's a testament to Fergie that he saw off the various challenges of the new money clubs whilst spending less than the likes of Liverpool but ultimately if our turnover was being reinvested into the playing squad rather than to pay off debt we'd be off and over the hills in terms of squad quality and facilities without ever having to worry about FFP.

Long story short I'm not bothered about spending big as long as it's within our means, but if we have a limited warchest we still need to aim for value for money. Given the quality of some of the players that have moved for less than £15m in the last few years (Ozil to Real, Vidal to Juve) it seems strange that we're talking about £35m for Carvalho or £30m for Herrera last Summer.
 
I wouldnt worry about Moyes personally, I firmly believe his fate is sealed and he wont be the United manager next season barring a sensational turn of events.

Why am I so confident? the Glazers are always deemed to be astute and harsh business men with their main goal being to make a lot of money off their assets. Currently the shares of United are at a low, the Nike deal is still yet to be confirmed, we have missed out on Champions League football leading to a lowest ever 7th place meaning the pay out from the prem will be the lowest it has ever been for us. So were in the EL well because of pressure from fans we will be discounting tickets by 25% for these games, more revenue out of the window.

Lets look at the day to day, season ticket holders are angry and confused about the situation with J stand, many not renewing. Attendances are impressive but the Glazers will be aware that they need to be the hottest ticket in town with the Etihad on the up (still no where near us) and Everton creeping up with a very attractive brand of football.

We are very much in the cusp of a crisis. One more season like this and we will be firmly in the "new Liverpool" bracket. The Glazers will at some point before the new season take charge and sack Moyes and bring in a proven and top manager to steady the ship and drive for the title again.

Because they need guarantees of revenue and excitement big players will come, and we will absolutely throw everything at them, not recklessly though, I have heard the opening bid for Kroos has been placed at 20m to test the waters but we will go up to 40m. These type of players need the right leadership and plan.

All of this is also why I dont think Moyes really has much say in the final outcome of transfer dealings. Yes he will target and single out players who he thinks will send us in the right direction. Yes he will be there for enticing players and sounding out deals. But say if he decided to drop the persuit of Kroos and go for say Kavacic (A lower grade of player but still great) because he changed his mind, I believe wed still bid for Kroos and have a look at Kavacic.
 
Kaos said:
The frustrating thing is that we don't need to spend obscene amounts this summer.

The squad as it stands with some competent man management will easily place us in the top 4. Add a couple of signings in key position and it easily turns into a realistic title challenge.

We're only looking to spend stupid amounts to paper over the obvious shortcomings of a manager and coaching staff who are out of their depth.
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Eh? This team needed serious investment well before this season, with Vidic/Rio/Evra all in their decline and no real successor to Scholes or Giggs brought in. Fergie's genius papered over the cracks but this squad has needed serious investment, particularly in midfield, for a long time.

A splurge is well overdue IMO.
 
Nickosaur said:
Eh? This team needed serious investment well before this season, with Vidic/Rio/Evra all in their decline and no real successor to Scholes or Giggs brought in. Fergie's genius papered over the cracks but this squad has needed serious investment, particularly in midfield, for a long time.

A splurge is well overdue IMO.
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Yeah I'd agree with that, but with a top class manager making two or three signings at most would be enough for us to mount a title challenge IMO.

With Moyes its spending £200milion to get back into the top 4.
 
If we intend to keep Moyes as the manager AND get back to competing for the title, the only way I see it happening is if we fill our squad with absolutely top players in most positions. A top managers gets the squad to atleast perform at its potential if not more, we have one that cant get the best out of what he has so we need to give him more quality than should be needed.
 
Kaos said:
The frustrating thing is that we don't need to spend obscene amounts this summer.

The squad as it stands with some competent man management will easily place us in the top 4. Add a couple of signings in key position and it easily turns into a realistic title challenge.

We're only looking to spend stupid amounts to paper over the obvious shortcomings of a manager and coaching staff who are out of their depth.
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Yea or basically somebody's taking into account that we're on the verge of losing 2 CBs in Vidić who's already gone and Rio, Evra at the LB where our second-choice-fullback is Büttner, we've got no cover for the RB unless we play Smalling and Jones there. Jones, Evans, Smalling, basically all the time atleast one of them is injured, if we promote Keane, that leaves us with 3 CBs between PL, CoC, FA and maybe EL. And that's just defence.

Then you've got central midfield where we've been lacking for years, Fletcher and Carrick are both aging, Anderson hopefully is gone, Cleverley is at best a squad player and then there's Fellaini, who's already entitled a flop by many. Our three wingers of Nani, Young and Valencia have been rubbish for last two years and it doesn't seem like anything will change in that department, then there's Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa ( out of which only Januzaj can be called a 'semi-winger' or something, the latter two won't give us pace that we need from the wings ) and possibly Danny, who I hope will be more of a #9 than a winger.

Incompetent manager is one thing, our squad aging, seriously lacking in certain positions for years, is another one. It's not all down to Moyes and staff being shite.

Edit: and no, 'one or two signings' won't cut it unless you want us to bleed out between Europe ( when we finally get there ) and league.
 
There's nothing wrong with a couple of big signings, if they are off set by a couple of shrewd ones. We'll have to judge that on September 1st, but the reality of the matter is becoming one of those clubs who spend huge sums of money on each and every deal is just not sustainable for Man United. It might be the push that helps Moyes survive a while longer, but it can't become our way.
 
thegregster said:
The Glazers dont spent and we complain.

Then they spend and we still complain!
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Not having a lot of money to spend is the Glazer's fault. But having money and not spending it wisely is probably more the manager, because in the end it is probably him who evaluates a potential signing's worth.
And I agree that some of those numbers seem way too high. On the other hand we don't even know if they are real and even if they are the knowledge that United have 100m or even more to spend might make impossible to get remotely fair deals.
 
mic.m said:
I'm concerned with fees being mentioned with regards to our transfer targets. Cavalho £35m, Shaw £30m, Kroos £40m + £260k/week. Our kitty is said to be anything between £150-200m

I know our squad needs significant additions. However we have gone from Fergie's no value in the market, feck agent fees extreme to the other extreme of sugar daddy, government subsidised spend whatever it takes extreme. In the past before the debt the strategy was 1-2 significant buys to complement young players and home grown products. I'm nervous about our summer spending.

If some of these signings flop we can't afford to discard like Real, City and Chelsea do. We can't afford to splurge every summer. Another issue is our manager. Will he be here next season? How will his team play? Then there is the issue of Lingard, Powell and other youngsters who need to be given a fair shot just like Welbeck, Cleverly, Januzaj, Jones have.
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No way Kroos is going for £40m, he has one year left on his contract. I don't think there's any doubt that we needed to open the chequebook up, the problem is that Moyes has spent £65m very poorly.

We've spent £27m on Fellaini who doesn't even improve us and we're still talking about spending £70m+ to improve our CM. We've bought Mata who Moyes has no conviction to play in his best position unless Rooney/RVP are unavailable, and given we had Kagawa if Moyes actually wanted to go down the route of playing a proper playmaker, that £40m odd would have strengthened the team so much more.

We don't need to be spending £30m on Shaw. We just need a LB who's competent defensively and comfortable going forward. We just need a stop gap there. Coentrao would be half the price.

If we are going to splash the cash again, target CM and make sure we get the right quality of the players who actually improve us. We're stacked in CM with Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini and Jones/Giggs. I'd bugger off Fellaini, try and get £15m for him and use that towards buying 2 CMs. Then try and get in a left back on the cheap (ish). We can cope elsewhere in the team. Obviously Moyes isn't going to get rid of Afroman though.
 
Nickosaur said:
Eh? This team needed serious investment well before this season, with Vidic/Rio/Evra all in their decline and no real successor to Scholes or Giggs brought in. Fergie's genius papered over the cracks but this squad has needed serious investment, particularly in midfield, for a long time.

A splurge is well overdue IMO.
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I agree. Obviously Spurs are an example of how splurging doesn't necessarily solve all issues; but our current state is a good example of the other extreme (it still irks how little of the Ronaldo fee was immediately reinvested into the squad.)

Clearly, a well-managed, well-thought out middle ground is the key.
 
jem said:
I agree. Obviously Spurs are an example of how splurging doesn't necessarily solve all issues; but our current state is a good example of the other extreme (it still irks how little of the Ronaldo fee was immediately reinvested into the squad.)

Clearly, a well-managed, well-thought out middle ground is the key.
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Spurs made money this summer.
 
Twigginater said:
Spurs made money this summer.
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Yeah, but they also spent a lot on new players. I'm not talking about the club's bottom line; I'm talking about whether a huge squad reinvestment in one transfer is necessarily a cure-all.
 
jem said:
Yeah, but they also spent a lot on new players. I'm not talking about the club's bottom line; I'm talking about whether a huge squad reinvestment in one transfer is necessarily a cure-all.
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But Spurs lost a load of new players. They needed to invest more if they were goign to push on. You don't lose your best player and about 8 squad players and not replace them and continue to do as well
 
Twigginater said:
But Spurs lost a load of new players. They needed to invest more if they were goign to push on. You don't lose your best player and about 8 squad players and not replace them and continue to do as well
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I'm not really criticizing them for doing it, just pointing out that it's no guarantee for success (especially in our case, where we won't be losing our best player as Spurs did.)

As an aside, can you remind me which other players they lost? (I'm not doubting you, I just can recall at this moment.)
 
United are damned if they do and damned if they don't. We need an overhaul IMO no doubt. Our midfield is severely lacking and losing the experience of Evra (no replacement in squad) Rio Vidic and Giggs will not be easy. So no doubt in my mind investment is needed.
 
Lawman said:
United are damned if they do and damned if they don't. We need an overhaul IMO no doubt. Our midfield is severely lacking and losing the experience of Evra (no replacement in squad) Rio Vidic and Giggs will not be easy. So no doubt in my mind investment is needed.
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I'd be pretty happy if we signed Shaw and Kroos. I think that would give us a pretty strong boost. I really feel Smalling and Jones need to be given an extended run-out together (with Evans providing more than capable backup.) I also think it's time to have a look at youngsters like Powell, Lingard and Varela (who I've never seen, but I'm assuming must have some potential.)

Perhaps a veteran backup at LB and CB might also be a good idea.
 
jem said:
I'm not really criticizing them for doing it, just pointing out that it's no guarantee for success (especially in our case, where we won't be losing our best player as Spurs did.)

As an aside, can you remind me which other players they lost? (I'm not doubting you, I just can recall at this moment.)
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Parker/Huddlestone/Defoe/Dempsey/Caulker/Bale/Gallas
 
Eugenius said:
No way Kroos is going for £40m, he has one year left on his contract. I don't think there's any doubt that we needed to open the chequebook up, the problem is that Moyes has spent £65m very poorly.

We've spent £27m on Fellaini who doesn't even improve us and we're still talking about spending £70m+ to improve our CM. We've bought Mata who Moyes has no conviction to play in his best position unless Rooney/RVP are unavailable, and given we had Kagawa if Moyes actually wanted to go down the route of playing a proper playmaker, that £40m odd would have strengthened the team so much more.

We don't need to be spending £30m on Shaw. We just need a LB who's competent defensively and comfortable going forward. We just need a stop gap there. Coentrao would be half the price.

If we are going to splash the cash again, target CM and make sure we get the right quality of the players who actually improve us. We're stacked in CM with Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini and Jones/Giggs. I'd bugger off Fellaini, try and get £15m for him and use that towards buying 2 CMs. Then try and get in a left back on the cheap (ish). We can cope elsewhere in the team. Obviously Moyes isn't going to get rid of Afroman though.
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I know but Bayern are determined to keep him. They won't accept any offer. Also we paid £20m for Young and £24m for RVP when both had a years left on their contracts.

The other paragraphs I agree with. We can still successfully replace top players without spending a minimum of £30m on each one of them
 
Lawman said:
United are damned if they do and damned if they don't. We need an overhaul IMO no doubt. Our midfield is severely lacking and losing the experience of Evra (no replacement in squad) Rio Vidic and Giggs will not be easy. So no doubt in my mind investment is needed.
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We don't need an overhaul and no-one was saying that at the start of the season. Get 2 CMs and a LB and we're back in business. That is what was obviously what we needed, and even Moyes saw that with his targets. Somehow though, he's taken that £65m and gone from Coentrao/Baines/Herrera/Fabregas/Thiago to Fellaini and Mata who aren't what we need, and cost £65m.

The squad isn't particularly lacking aside from CM and LB (although the sketchy form of the wingers is a problem). A lot of the problems we've had are not personnel related but management related.

mic.m said:
I know but Bayern are determined to keep him. They won't accept any offer. Also we paid £20m for Young and £24m for RVP when both had a years left on their contracts.

The other paragraphs I agree with. We can still successfully replace top players without spending a minimum of £30m on each one of them
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The whole Kroos thing is just about money isn't it? I've heard Bayern say that they're not selling him this summer definitely, so I can imagine that sooner or later they'll just offer whatever contract he wants. It's not like an RVP/Young/Nasri situation where they were also motivated by trophies. But yeah, it would take crazy money for them to even consider a bid.
 
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Well the Glazers have sucked money out of the club don´t know why they shouldn´t put something back..
And I think there is no plan in motion so throwing money seems the only option..
 
Kaos said:
The frustrating thing is that we don't need to spend obscene amounts this summer.

The squad as it stands with some competent man management will easily place us in the top 4. Add a couple of signings in key position and it easily turns into a realistic title challenge.

We're only looking to spend stupid amounts to paper over the obvious shortcomings of a manager and coaching staff who are out of their depth.
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The funny thing about this is that before this season for a few seasons now everyone has been complaining about the need for new players in a number of positions. Now of course because most of us dont like Moyes we are claiming we dont need to spend much. the goal posts keep being moved.
 
Stack said:
The funny thing about this is that before this season for a few seasons now everyone has been complaining about the need for new players in a number of positions. Now of course because most of us dont like Moyes we are claiming we dont need to spend much. the goal posts keep being moved.
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I've always claimed we needed to spend in previous summers. Just not anywhere near the amounts being quoted now. The reason I wasn't complaining as much was because despite our stubbornness in refusing to get the checkbook out, we'd still win titles.

Now we're quoted to be spending up to £200million to just get back into the top four, that's after finishing first last season by 11 points and after the new manager already spending £65million. Yes I have an agenda but its not a blind one.
 
I think the level of financial investment is overstated. I don't doubt that in gross terms it will be a big number. But I think by selling some fringe players each along with at least one high profile sacrifice the actual net figure will be different.

My totally unfounded stab in the dark would be - RvP (£20M), Young (£5M), Nani (£10M), Anderson (£3M), Hernandez (£15M), Lindergaard (£3M), Bebe (?), Macheda (£1M). If we spend £150M you could see at least a third of it coming back in.

Plus of course there's salaries, which are often greater (per annum) than the transfer fees.

Only the most high profile players come into the club on higher wages than those around them (like RvP). Players like Garay, Mangala, Carvalho and the other more plausible names we've been linked with will be coming in on lower wages than those they're replacing. We may get one marquee signing, but that'll be it. Combine that with using younger players in the place of duff fringers like Anderson and, again, you're off-setting the cost.

My guess is that we'll end up spending in the £100-150M range (even that gives me sweats), but that we'll sell in the £30-50M range and that our salary bill will be similar to how it is now.
 
I personally can't see us ever throwing money at anything while the glazers are in charge, i personally don't believe we will spend anything like whats being reported this summer, we hear the same shit almost every summer last summer it was ronaldo/bale which never panned out.

If we did spend a lot more money this summer then it would be a one time deal probably before going back to our usual £50-60m summer spends.
 
No one's going to pay anything remotely close to £20m for van Persie. We'll be lucky to get £10m given his injury issues from the past and 30 years of age.
 
stevoc said:
I personally can't see us ever throwing money at anything while the glazers are in charge, i personally don't believe we will spend anything like whats being reported this summer, we hear the same shit almost every summer last summer it was ronaldo/bale which never panned out.

If we did spend a lot more money this summer then it would be a one time deal probably before going back to our usual £50-60m summer spends.
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We've spent £65m out of our pockets since smug Scot has taken over. He'll easily get another £65m and more in the Summer which will take his spending beyond £100m easily. That's a huge outlay by anyone's standards.
 
arthurka said:
Well the Glazers have sucked money out of the club don´t know why they shouldn´t put something back..
And I think there is no plan in motion so throwing money seems the only option..
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We've outspent Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich each season for 7 our of the last 8 years on average.
 
mic.m said:
I'm concerned with fees being mentioned with regards to our transfer targets. Cavalho £35m, Shaw £30m, Kroos £40m + £260k/week. Our kitty is said to be anything between £150-200m

I know our squad needs significant additions. However we have gone from Fergie's no value in the market, feck agent fees extreme to the other extreme of sugar daddy, government subsidised spend whatever it takes extreme. In the past before the debt the strategy was 1-2 significant buys to complement young players and home grown products. I'm nervous about our summer spending.

If some of these signings flop we can't afford to discard like Real, City and Chelsea do. We can't afford to splurge every summer. Another issue is our manager. Will he be here next season? How will his team play? Then there is the issue of Lingard, Powell and other youngsters who need to be given a fair shot just like Welbeck, Cleverly, Januzaj, Jones have.
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If we were spending ridiculous money for shit players then I wouldnt be worried. However the players that are mentioned are far from bad and will give us 10-15 years of top quality football.

I am not worried about the kids either. The squad needs rebuilding a kids will slot in to replace the dead wood irrespective on whether we sign those players or not
 
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