Santa Barbara shooting

[Pogue Mahone]

Isn't he supposed to have been on the autistic spectrum?

That would go a bit towards explaining why he felt he lacked the social skills of his peers, as well as his apparent lack of empathy and egocentricity (in the psychological - i.e. not meaning arrogant - sense)

Don't really follow the whole misogyny tangent, though. Ultimately any violence directed towards women is, almost by definition, a form or misogyny. It doesn't mean his primary motive was a hatred of women, though. Trying to link this to a broader feminist agenda is a bit of a stretch and typical of a certain regular poster in this forum.

 

[Alex99]

Just making the point that you're obsessed, and obsession is dangerous.

So is misogyny. And it clearly played a part in this crime, yet people are desperate to pretend it didn't.

Clearly his mental state played a part. Clearly the ease in which he acquired guns and ammunition played a part. Clearly the failure of the authorities to pick up on this earlier played a part. What is also clear, is that this man had some deep-rooted misogyny, and that also played a part.

I've not once denied that these other factors didn't contribute, but there are a worrying number of people claiming that misogyny played no part in this, and this is what I am addressing. We have a 140 page manifesto, in which he declares war on women, states his desire to put them all into concentration camps and breeding centers, and repeatedly fantasizes about killing them. We have multiple videos in which he expresses his hatred of women, including one where he outlines a plan to drive up to a sorority house and kill the women there as 'punishment' for the 'injustice' and 'crimes' they've committed against him. He then actually drove up to this sorority house, and killed two women there. Despite all of this, people are claiming that it had nothing to do with it.

 

[Zak Smith]

He targeted his little brother because his little brother had "social advantages" that he felt he didn't have, and as such would be able to have sex. He showed resentment towards his father for allowing his step-mother too much power, concluding that she must have been good in bed. He also expressed some resentment because his father never "told him" how to attract women. He hated his step-mother for attempting to discipline him and for manipulating his father through sex. He expressed resentment towards his mother for refusing to abandon her happiness and marry a wealthy man for his benefit. Everything in his manifesto comes back to misogynistic ideas, of either entitlement to sex, or male dominance over women. The most pertinent part of it all was his hatred of women for not having sex with him. There were clearly other factors involved, but almost all of it can be traced back to misogyny.

He was racist as well, and he was a full blown narcissist. The reason he targeted whom he did can be traced to Misogyny but to me his fundamental narcissism and mental health problems were the biggest factors in . You admit his friend has a similar attitude, but he lacked the narcissism and mental problems of Elliot and severed the friendship.

 

[adexkola]

Because a lot of what he said echoed stuff that regularly appears in those circles.

"I am a gentlemen, why don't women like me?" - Typical MRA nice-guy talk

"Women are all attracted to obnoxious brutes when they should be attracted to gentlemen like me" - Typical of MRA nice-guy talk and echoes RedPill alpha talk.

"I have not had sex because women have denied me it" - Typical of RedPill "women control access to sex" talk

"Women are too stupid to know what they want because they should clearly want me" - Typical RedPill talk about "weak minded" women

"My father gives this woman too much power, she must be good in bed" - Typical of both MRA and RedPill talk about women using sex to manipulate men

Granted, he took the absolute extreme measure, but a lot of what he said would have gone unchecked in those circles because it completely echoes their way of thinking.

As for the men he killed, his manifesto repeatedly talks about his hatred of men, and he hates them because he feels that they have had sex with women that he was entitled to have sex with. He doesn't hate them because they're men, he hates them because he hates the women that they've had sex with. His oldest friend was a virgin just as he was, and he was his oldest friend because he insulted anyone that he believed to have had sex, which inevitably was most of the people his age. There are countless tales of him hating people for kissing girls, having sex with them, and even just assuming that they'd done so. He targeted women because he felt that they had denied him sex he was entitled to. He then targeted the men that he assumed these women had had sex with. He said he was going to go to a sorority house and "slaughter" the women there, and he drove up that sorority house and shot at the women there, killing two of them.

MRA's primary focus is "male rights" in areas like child custody and support, domestic violence, etc. Most of the comments you refer to would be found in the Red Pill section of reddit, and a cursory browse says that whiny comments are bitch slapped to oblivion. Red pill's mainstream point is about improving yourself in all aspects of life (physical, career, hobbies, etc) to position yourself as an attractive prospect to women, because being nice doesn't guarantee anything. This is emphasized over and over.

A significant proportion of the comments on both sites are disturbing, but they tend to be the product of jilted men going through bad times. I think it's a reach to lay much blame on the sites for this man's behavior. If he posted this video on the red pill he would have been told to get a life literally.

@Pogue Mahone, great craic indeed

 

[Shamwow]

Isn't he supposed to have been on the autistic spectrum?

That would go a bit towards explaining why he felt he lacked the social skills of his peers, as well as his apparent lack of empathy and egocentricity (in the psychological - i.e. not meaning arrogant - sense)

Don't really follow the whole misogyny tangent, though. Ultimately any violence directed towards women is, almost by definition, a form or misogyny. It doesn't mean his primary motive was a hatred of women, though. Trying to link this to a broader feminist agenda is a bit of a stretch and typical of a certain regular poster in this forum.

He must have been somewhere on it. This paragraph somewhat sums him up. I hope no one minds me posting stuff from his "manifesto":

 

[Man of Leisure]

He targeted his little brother because his little brother had "social advantages" that he felt he didn't have, and as such would be able to have sex. He showed resentment towards his father for allowing his step-mother too much power, concluding that she must have been good in bed. He also expressed some resentment because his father never "told him" how to attract women. He hated his step-mother for attempting to discipline him and for manipulating his father through sex. He expressed resentment towards his mother for refusing to abandon her happiness and marry a wealthy man for his benefit. Everything in his manifesto comes back to misogynistic ideas, of either entitlement to sex, or male dominance over women. The most pertinent part of it all was his hatred of women for not having sex with him. There were clearly other factors involved, but almost all of it can be traced back to misogyny.

He clearly had issues even as a kid (going all they way back to when he threw a tantrum due to the fact that he didn't want to sit Indian-style for the class picture) that had nothing to do with sex which would dispel this. His "shyness" as he calls it, was most likely a severe social anxiety disorder. Even as a 14-year old in all boys' high school, he lasted only for a short time before transferring elsewhere. Also, he killed his 2 roommates even though he claimed they were neither "good-looking" nor lotharios. As Sullydnl mentioned, it was a confluence of factors and a perfect storm that led to these tragic events. Seems to me that misogyny was not the instigator but the product of all this.

 

[adexkola]

He targeted his little brother because his little brother had "social advantages" that he felt he didn't have, and as such would be able to have sex. He showed resentment towards his father for allowing his step-mother too much power, concluding that she must have been good in bed. He also expressed some resentment because his father never "told him" how to attract women. He hated his step-mother for attempting to discipline him and for manipulating his father through sex. He expressed resentment towards his mother for refusing to abandon her happiness and marry a wealthy man for his benefit. Everything in his manifesto comes back to misogynistic ideas, of either entitlement to sex, or male dominance over women. The most pertinent part of it all was his hatred of women for not having sex with him. There were clearly other factors involved, but almost all of it can be traced back to misogyny.

I absolutely agree with this. Some of the denial is a backlash against militant agendas on social networks shoving "societal misogyny" in every crevice they can reach. Which is a shame, because in cases like this misogyny needs to be outed and shamed. Especially as the other issues in this incident such as gun control and mental health issues have already been discussed.

 

[sullydnl]

He targeted his little brother because his little brother had "social advantages" that he felt he didn't have, and as such would be able to have sex. He showed resentment towards his father for allowing his step-mother too much power, concluding that she must have been good in bed. He also expressed some resentment because his father never "told him" how to attract women. He hated his step-mother for attempting to discipline him and for manipulating his father through sex. He expressed resentment towards his mother for refusing to abandon her happiness and marry a wealthy man for his benefit. Everything in his manifesto comes back to misogynistic ideas, of either entitlement to sex, or male dominance over women. The most pertinent part of it all was his hatred of women for not having sex with him. There were clearly other factors involved, but almost all of it can be traced back to misogyny.

Hmm, think you're stretching it a bit tbh. Obviously misogyny was a major factor but I'm not sure how you can be so sure it was the root cause. After all, he refers to other issues that may not necessarily have anything to do with misogyny. I think an equally valid argument could be made that the misogyny is a manifestation of other issues.

Not saying you're wrong necessarily but I can't see any reason for your level of certainty that misogyny was the fundamental issue here. The fact that his view of the women seems to correlate with that of MRA/RedPill types doesn't necessarily mean his actions were caused by it.

Also, we're essentially basing all this analysis off writings and videos that may or may not be an accurate representation of his real motives. Obviously we have no way of knowing whether they are or not so we can only go by what we know, but it's worth remembering that we're only getting a small snapshot into his life and circumstances.

 

[SteveJ]

His writings are so utterly ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised if some conspiracy theorist types claim the whole thing is a "false flag" designed to "take our guns away".

 

[DOTA]

Just making the point that you're obsessed, and obsession is dangerous.

He's making the same points a fair amount are making.

I find it slightly worryingly how much aversion to the idea that misogyny played a key role in this, there is, given we have a killer telling us that's why he did it. I can't help but feel there is a desire to wash our hands of any cultural blame, in cases like this. It's more comfortable to blame the government and mental illness than the kind of attitudes we should all probably do more to challenge.

 

[adexkola]

His writings are so utterly ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised if some conspiracy theorist types claim the whole thing is a "false flag" designed to "take our guns away".

Now that you mention it...

 

[Shamwow]

Focusing on misogyny is missing the point though. If women didn't exist I strongly believe that this man would found a different group of people to resent for his own failings. He had an obsession with status long before he cared about women.

 

[Suli]

Focusing on misogyny is missing the point though. If women didn't exist I strongly believe that this man would found a different group of people to resent for his own failings. He had an obsession with status long before he cared about women.

Agreed.

 

[SteveJ]

Focusing on misogyny is missing the point though. If women didn't exist I strongly believe that this man would found a different group of people to resent for his own failings. He had an obsession with status long before he cared about women.

Well, yeah. While I echo DOTA's sentiments posted above, I feel that there's an air of self-fulfilling prophecy about Rodger's life & death.

 

[Zak Smith]

Focusing on misogyny is missing the point though. If women didn't exist I strongly believe that this man would found a different group of people to resent for his own failings. He had an obsession with status long before he cared about women.

Exactly. Had he got himself a woman, it would have been non-whites with a better job or car.

 

[SteveJ]

...and if he'd been poor, he would've criticised women for being shallow, being attracted to guys with nice clothes n' cars.

 

[Scrumpet]

Does it really matter whether misogyny was a cause or a symptom? Surely it reflects badly on society either way.

 

[DOTA]

Well, yeah. While I echo DOTA's sentiments posted above, I feel that there's an air of self-fulfilling prophecy about Rodger's life & death.

Ahh, fair enough. That's you and Hectic, now, who've both looked more in to him than I have and suggested the same thing. I'd be unwise to consider my cursory glance better than your efforts.

Does it really matter whether misogyny was a cause or a symptom? Surely it reflects badly on society either way.

It does, a bit. It's a question of what we should be tackling, in response to a case that we really shouldn't be allowing to happen. Gun laws are the obvious one. Mental health and misogynistic culture are trickier questions.

 

[Bury Red]

What's it going to take, someone shooting up a maternity ward? Then they will want to arm nurses.

The nurses should already be armed FFS. It's pre natal gun approval that's needed so the midwife slaps the kid on the arse and hands them the uzi necessary to prevent them getting it smacked a second time.

 

[Alex99]

Isn't he supposed to have been on the autistic spectrum?

That would go a bit towards explaining why he felt he lacked the social skills of his peers, as well as his apparent lack of empathy and egocentricity (in the psychological - i.e. not meaning arrogant - sense)

Don't really follow the whole misogyny tangent, though. Ultimately any violence directed towards women is, almost by definition, a form or misogyny. It doesn't mean his primary motive was a hatred of women, though. Trying to link this to a broader feminist agenda is a bit of a stretch and typical of a certain regular poster in this forum.

There is no link between autism and violence against women.

There is no link between mental illness and violence against women.

There is a link between misogyny and violence against women.

We have a confession video and a 140 page manifesto in which he states that he wants to kill women for denying him sex, yet we can't say that this was his motive?

The actions he took were clearly a product of his deeply disturbed mental state, but he didn't lash out at bullies, he didn't lash out at old teachers, he didn't lash out at popular kids, he lashed out a women, something confirmed by his repeated statements that women were the cause of all of his problems.

I am not pushing an agenda here. I am merely trying to get people to recognise that misogyny played a part here. I may be wrong that misogyny was the root cause, but was certainly one of the causes, and certainly played a large part in this crime, and was not merely some peripheral contributor, akin to violent video games and moves, as some people are suggesting.

As for the RedPill, MRA, PUA stuff, he did not fit into those communities because he was very defensive and came across as extremely narcissistic, but he still echoed many of their ideologies. His general narrative is "I'm a gentlemen, women should be sleeping with me", which is an extremely common tale in those circles (minus RedPill). He repeatedly mentions "obnoxious brutes/jocks", often talking about his physical inferiority to them. He talks about how they attract women, which is common RedPill alpha talk, and is basically their whole ethos. He even attempted to lift weights to become like them, but due to a lack of instant gratification, he gave up (instant gratification and giving up were also common themes). He talks about how women are manipulative and control access to sex, which echoes many of the posts made in those circles. I am not saying that they caused this violence, don't get me wrong. As much as I may disagree with much of what they say, I do not think that they're all mass-murderers waiting to happen. What I am saying is that there is a problem amongst young men, where misogyny is accepted and encouraged. They did not encourage his actions, but they certainly encouraged his beliefs.

 

[Shamwow]

We've got men who have an intrinsic desire to outperform others, to be better than other men - to be the alpha male as he puts it in his video. Life is a game for many of us. And a society that does a lot to define "better" as things like money, popularity, physical superiority and sex.

Misogyny is a manifestation of this but there are many other men living essentially empty lives obsessed with improving their status and they only know how to measure it terms of the things mentioned above.

We really need to start glorifying more constructive goals as a society.

 

[SteveJ]

Ahh, fair enough. That's you and Hectic, now, who've both looked more in to him than I have and suggested the same thing. I'd be unwise to consider my cursory glance better than your efforts.

Nah, mate, it's just that you expressed my feelings about the case's misogynistic roots better than I could. We men have an unfortunate tendency to shame-facedly shy away from our sex's responsibility when it comes to crimes of this type. Worse still, some are bored by the discussion of it. Men need to stop taking out their problems on others, especially on females.

 

[Hectic]

So is misogyny. And it clearly played a part in this crime, yet people are desperate to pretend it didn't.

Who here is desperately trying to pretend it didn't have anything to do with it? All I see are posts arguing it wasn't the primary or only motive.

 

[Pexbo]

In a way he's restored my faith in humanity. He's proven that being rich from a privileged background, living in a nice area, having a nice car and what not means feck all if you're an absolute fruit cake with a shit personality.

 

[Shark]

I think that there's more than enough evidence to suggest that he would have still struck, even if he somehow managed to have sex with some poor soul. It might have been delayed, but his hatred and delusion would have seen him use another excuse to murder. The guy was a disaster waiting to happen. He wanted to kill his little brother ffs.

 

[Hectic]

Focusing on misogyny is missing the point though. If women didn't exist I strongly believe that this man would found a different group of people to resent for his own failings. He had an obsession with status long before he cared about women.

Exactly. I'm not sure that if he had a different primary expectation of what should happen in college, such as making loads of male friends instead of sex and having girlfriends, he wouldn't have just done the same thing with the focus on males.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Jaysus, just googled this red pill stuff. Seems to be based around an online community with all of 15000 members. Not sure why anyone would draw conclusions from this tiny community of feckwits about society in general, never mind an entire gender.

I often think that people who get sucked into internet bickering about gender politics end up unable to see the wood for the trees. It's a big world out there, don't think that the most vocal bloggers and tweeters speak for anyone but themselves and the tiny minority of like minded souls who also enjoy boring the tits off strangers online about whatever sexist/feminist agenda they like to peddle.

They're all as bad as each other too. If you do delve into all that squabbling you're as likely to come out feeling irritated by feminists as you are by misogynists. I reckon they have a lot more in common than they'd like to think...

 

[kidbob]

It's impossible to ever put one motive as the main instigator in cases like these. We are dealing with a guy who had some seriously deep rooted issues. It's like trying to analyse the situation and motives enough to put them in black and white but this guys's mind didn't work in this manner, there is too much gray area to ever substantiate one particular thing as his motive regardless of his manifesto. It was a manifesto written by a mad man and it reads as such. I'd be very sceptical of taking this and the videos as absolute fact when they are the ramblings of a crazy person who probably has never been able to obtain clarity on what made him so angry.

 

[Ady87]

It's interesting that in the last few pages of his manifesto he refers to himself as a God quite frequently. This is the only time in the entire manifesto that he does this and it basically starts at the first hint of the 'Day of Retribution'. It's like something snapped at this time.

Up until this point he is quite honest about wanting it to be another way and wanting a chance or a way out of this route but it never arrives. Him giving the world a chance though, was limited to him driving to various locations solo and looking for companionship or even a girl to have sex with. I think most would agree this wasn't the best approach but despite it never working in the past he repeatedly gave it a try. Maybe he wanted it to fail.

 

[Alex99]

Who is desperately trying to pretend it didn't have anything to do with it? All I see are posts arguing it wasn't the primary or only motive.

Alex is about to turn another thread into a thread about women...

In my opinion, it is ridculous to attach the 'misogyny kils' label to this case.

It isn't misogyny that killed anyone. It was mental illness and a gun.

This is clearly not a severe case of misogyny gone bad.

Don't really follow the whole misogyny tangent, though. Ultimately any violence directed towards women is, almost by definition, a form or misogyny. It doesn't mean his primary motive was a hatred of women, though. Trying to link this to a broader feminist agenda is a bit of a stretch and typical of a certain regular poster in this forum.

Maybe desperately trying to pretend it didn't have anything to do with it is a bit strong, but there are a number in this thread alone that are very happy to overlook it or downplay it. However, my comment extends further than the members of this forum, and just looking at comments on news articles about it reveals a worrying number of people that also think it wasn't at all important, or wasn't a factor altogether.

 

[sullydnl]

It's impossible to ever put one motive as the main instigator in cases like these. We are dealing with a guy who had some seriously deep rooted issues. It's like trying to analyse the situation and motives enough to put them in black and white but this guys's mind didn't work in this manner, there is too much gray area to ever substantiate one particular thing as his motive regardless of his manifesto. It was a manifesto written by a mad man and it reads as such. I'd be very sceptical of taking this and the videos as absolute fact when they are the ramblings of a crazy person who probably has never been able to obtain clarity on what made him so angry.

Yep, given the total lack of self awareness he displayed it seems entirely possible that even he didn't fully know what was driving him, so how us idiots on the caf can be so certain is beyond me.

It's interesting that in the last few pages of his manifesto he refers to himself as a God quite frequently. This is the only time in the entire manifesto that he does this and it basically starts at the first hint of the 'Day of Retribution'. It's like something snapped at this time.

Again, that reads like something someone about to go on a killing spree is supposed to say. Maybe he simply wasn't able to fully articulate his feelings and motivations and instead fell back on clichéd "I am a god, I will punish you, I will show no mercy" justification.

Or maybe not. Truth is a lot of very qualified professionals could spend years pouring over this guy's ramblings and still not fully know what was going on in his head.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Think linking it to those particular Reddits is wrong Alex. 4chan and the like are actually making concerted efforts to associate him with those boards, rather than him being actually associated with them.

He smacks of the /r9k/ board on 4chan to me, heavily.

 

[Ady87]

I would have been very interested in hearing what he had to say had he not been killed. I also wonder how he would have responded to some shower action in one of America's maximum security prisons.

 

[Bross]

I agree that while misogyny definitely was a cause, it was probably not the root cause.

Misogyny imo is a result of men who feel alienated from society because they dont feel like they fit in because they cant get laid, and then blame women and their "control over sex" for their shortcomings. If you can get these males to function well with the opposite sex and learn to interact and respect them as human beings from an early age, that is a more constructive way to battle misogyny than raging about forums like PUA-groups, MRA and Redpill (Ive never heard of the two latter groups before but I get the gist of what they are about from Alex99). I dont believe many young boys learn from an early age that women are evil through society, except in the extreme cases where they grow up with misogynistic, abusive fathers. Most misogynysts are probably a product of repeated failures with women because of lacking social ability. Its after they have become disillusioned by these failures that they gravitate towards misogynistic circles and internet communities that serve to boost their ego by telling them "its women's fault, not yours"

Yes, there are socially well-adjusted misogynysts too, but those are mostly manipulative sociopaths, a completely different group than Elliot Rodger. The vast majority of misogynists are men who fail miserably with women and blame them instead of looking to better themselves. Id guess that a very small proportion of the people frequenting misogynist foums have succesful relationships with women.

Narcissism and lack of empathy is a bad combo, and this guy had autistic traits as well, so he was bound to fail at getting the status his narcissistic brain felt he was entitled to. His narcissism made him look for external factors for his failures and he found that in misogynist ideas, but with his psychiatric profile he was a ticking bomb and he would have probably ended up a disaster even if he didnt take his hate out on women specifically.

 

[Will Absolute]

Jaysus, just googled this red pill stuff. Seems to be based around an online community with all of 15000 members. Not sure why anyone would draw conclusions from this tiny community of feckwits about society in general, never mind an entire gender.

I often think that people who get sucked into internet bickering about gender politics end up unable to see the wood for the trees. It's a big world out there, don't think that the most vocal bloggers and tweeters speak for anyone but themselves and the tiny minority of like minded souls who also enjoy boring the tits off strangers online about whatever sexist/feminist agenda they like to peddle.

They're all as bad as each other too. If you do delve into all that squabbling you're as likely to come out feeling irritated by feminists as you are by misogynists. I reckon they have a lot more in common than they'd like to think...

I think that's true. The wilder reaches of feminism appear to provide an outlet for women who hate men. They're the female equivalent of misogynists. Is there a word for this?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think that's true. The wilder reaches of feminism appear to provide an outlet for women who hate men. They're the female equivalent of misogynists. Is there a word for this?

Misandrists.

 

[Lu Tze]

I think that's true. The wilder reaches of feminism appear to provide an outlet for women who hate men. They're the female equivalent of misogynists. Is there a word for this?

Misandrists.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Narcissism and lack of empathy is a bad combo, and this guy had autistic traits as well, so he was bound to fail at getting the status his narcissistic brain felt he was entitled to. His narcissism made him look for external factors for his failures and he found that in misogynist ideas, but with his psychiatric profile he was a ticking bomb and he would have probably ended up a disaster even if he didnt take his hate out on women specifically.

Definitely, fortunately while I love myself immensely I also sympathize with the rest of humankind who are not as awesome as I am.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ugh. Knowing the answer to that question probably makes me look like I spend a lot of time in the middle all that stupid bickering I referred to above. I don't. Honestly. Even though I do love a good bicker, even I have some limits...

 

[Alex99]

Think linking it to those particular Reddits is wrong Alex. 4chan and the like are actually making concerted efforts to associate him with those boards, rather than him being actually associated with them.

He smacks of the /r9k/ board on 4chan to me, heavily.

I've not linked him to those specific subreddits, I've linked him to those specific schools of thought that permeate other areas of the internet, some of which we know he was involved in.

All of those that I have mentioned have tried to distance themselves from him. RedPillers are calling him a blue-pill, MRA, beta/omega. MRAs are calling him a RedPiller gone wrong.

No one's going to claim him as their own because he went out and murdered innocent people.

His writings are so utterly ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised if some conspiracy theorist types claim the whole thing is a "false flag" designed to "take our guns away".

Funnily enough, when I had a look at TheRedPill's reaction to it all, one of the posters on there had come up with the theory that he did it to bring a bad name to RedPillers. I've seen the same echoed from some MRAs as well.



Also, feminists as bad as misogynists?

I don't even know where to start with that.