Auction Draft QF3 : VivaCrappy vs Annahnomoss

[Theon]

Maradona's myth is as such that no one can seemingly mark him out. But he is trying to reduce his influence on the game, I can not think of a a better player than Redondo to do that.

Not too sure on this... if I remember rightly both Viva and Crappy thought that Redondo wasn't suitable for marking Rivaldo and that Makelele needed to be used instead.

So it seems strange that Redondo is now the perfect holder to combat Maradona.

I don't think Redondo has a hope of shackling Diego. I agree with Chester than Matthaus would be better suited for that role.

 

[Annahnomoss]

There's no way Batigol would have gotten more credit, you can bet on that. As for Romario and Ronaldo, well they offer something different and it depends what qualities people rate more. I think both strikers have been overlooked a tad here. If anything I'd say Klinsmann would be more than a handful for the two CBs. I don't completely agree with both managers saying those two CBs are perfect to handle Klinsi. Sure they would be a good pair to handle his physicality but he was much more than just a big lump up front. His bursts of acceleration in short spaces were absolutely explosive and combined that with his constant movement, he'd be a right nuisance. That is where I think he can trouble those two CBs specially with Diego pulling the strings. And it didn't matter which part of his body struck the ball, it went in like a fecking rocket. Which points to a great shooting technique.

Sorry if it came as I was advertising him, just found the comments on him slightly strange.

I think they are perfect to handle him, but you can't completely shut down any striker if they have the supply needed from around them. Klinsmann here has the supply to use his acceleration, dribbling and physicality here as there is plenty of space. At any time Maradona can pull Redondo towards his own goal, while Klinsmann steps down and drags the CB up with him - leaving a gap for Maradona to receive balls in.

Man marking tactics shouldn't rely on a such a key player, who if he moves out of position turns the entire teams defense to chaos.

 

[Gio]

Not sure that's true. If I remember correctly, Argentina were actually considered favourites before the game. The German team was somewhere inbetween, the new generation not at its peak yet, the old one past it. Only 3 starters from that team would be part of the worldcup winning team 4 years later. And both teams hardly created a lot. Schumacher's feck-up gifted Argentina the first goal after a freekick and at half time we changed the tactics and Matthäus didn't mark Maradona anymore, when he assisted both the 2nd and 3rd goal. We played better in the 2nd half though, it just wasn't enough to win the game.

Spoiler: Highlights final '86

If we had Schuster available, Matthäus could have stayed on Maradona without it hurting the team so much. It would have been a different game .

Aye a very transitional West German team - plenty of big names but very few in their prime. Probably best borne out by how close Mexico were to knocking them out and the element of fortune in facing Morocco in the second round as opposed to Spain.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not too sure on this... if I remember rightly both Viva and Crappy thought that Redondo wasn't suitable for marking Rivaldo and that Makelele needed to be used instead.

So it seems strange that Redondo is now the perfect holder to combat Maradona.

I don't think Redondo has a hope of shackling Diego. I agree with Chester than Matthaus would be better suited for that role.

Welcome back, good to see you again. I agree, can Crappy/VJ specify which matches in his career Redondo was used as a man marker to provide any sources or statements to back up the fact that he could do the most difficult job a man marker can be set out to do?

Back in the 80's players were brought up as man markers, spent their teens practicing defending as a man marker, played there on a weekly basis in their career - but still failed to shackle Maradona's influence most often. It was an era where man marking was the name of the defensive game, against Italy in '86 Maradona was up against a Catenaccio defense with four all-time defenders in Bergomi, Cabrini, Vierchowod and Gentile - did this all time great catenaccio defense keep Maradona from getting the best of them? No. This is just another example like the Milan one and there are endless more of them.

In fact I'd argue that not man marking Maradona would confuse him more.

 

[Balu]

In fact I'd argue that not man marking Maradona would confuse him more.

 

[Gio]

Not too sure on this... if I remember rightly both Viva and Crappy thought that Redondo wasn't suitable for marking Rivaldo and that Makelele needed to be used instead.

So it seems strange that Redondo is now the perfect holder to combat Maradona.

I don't think Redondo has a hope of shackling Diego. I agree with Chester than Matthaus would be better suited for that role.

Agree that Matthaus for his athleticism, defensive nous and all-round cuntishness would be a better fit for a man-to-man job here.

 

[Moby]

I'd say one way to limit Maradona's influence would be to limit the options he has to pick out and concentrating on cutting his supply. It is much easier said than done and requires monumental intelligence in the opposition to pull it off, but it keeps you organized. I sometimes feel because Diego scored THAT goal and had a knack of going on solo runs from time to time people consider him as a forward who would dribble his way to goal everytime he got the ball. He wasn't Messi, he was primarily a playmaker, and for me, the best the game has seen. He couldn't care less about someone man marking him, because his vision and passing ability were too good to find his teammates at ease. But if you have someone who can anticipate that, and tactically dismantle his link up with his teammates with using a good balance of closing down as well as being there to intercept his options, it would work, and did work. But it requires and highly well drilled setup, not one man, to carry out that operation. If it was someone like Cruyff, a man marking job would be more plausible, not that he was not a good playmaker, but he had a lot more tendency to have a run at goal, given his electric pace and dribbling, and he was a lot closer to the 2009 Messi. When Diego has the ball he would usually think of splitting defense, only if it doesn't work he would go on solo runs. So you have to make him waste time on doing one job, failing on that and moving the other but also follow his ideas closely, which is where you need a genius in your defense, not just any defender who knows how to cut a pass.

Spoiler: Maradona Passing

 

[Chesterlestreet]

A little support for Ayala and Adams - I think that's in order here:

For me they're a decent match for Klinsmann. His physicality isn't a problem. Ayala was strong for a smaller defender - and Adams was a monster. They'll match him in the air - which is very important, as Klinsmann was very dangerous in that regard. And Klinsmann, for me, wasn't a technical prodigy - he won't be able to run circles round those boys. And while he certainly wasn't sluggish in any way, he wasn't super fast either. He had a burst on him, yes - but he wasn't Romario. Ayala was fairly fast as such and very quick on his feet in terms of reacting to, let's say, trickery - as was Adams, I'd say, in spite of his large frame.

So, I don't see Klinsmann as having any sort of edge here inherently. That said, he was extremely clever and a brilliant finisher - if Maradona gets the chance to release a first rate pass into the box, Ayala and Adams certainly need to stay on their toes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Agree that Matthaus for his athleticism, defensive nous and all-round cuntishness would be a better fit for a man-to-man job here.

A very, very underrated quality in drafts, it seems. Having a grade A cnut on your side is always an advantage in a game of football.

 

[Annahnomoss]

A little support for Ayala and Adams - I think that's in order here:

For me they're a decent match for Klinsmann. His physicality isn't a problem. Ayala was strong for a smaller defender - and Adams was a monster. They'll match him in the air - which is very important, as Klinsmann was very dangerous in that regard. And Klinsmann, for me, wasn't a technical prodigy - he won't be able to run circles round those boys. And while he certainly wasn't sluggish in any way, he wasn't super fast either. He had a burst on him, yes - but he wasn't Romario. Ayala was fairly fast as such and very quick on his feet in terms of reacting to, let's say, trickery - as was Adams, I'd say, in spite of his large frame.

So, I don't see Klinsmann as having any sort of edge here inherently. That said, he was extremely clever and a brilliant finisher - if Maradona gets the chance to release a first rate pass into the box, Ayala and Adams certainly need to stay on their toes.

The same goes for whenever Enrique-Brehme beats Sagnol or Zanetti-Mendieta beats Lizarazu out wide, which is a great match-up for me and tactical error from VJ IMO, leaving Boniek and Conti up field. Space will open up and then Klinsmann's movement inside the box, acceleration, aerial ability and overall ability to convert chances becomes incredibly difficult to handle as one CB has to move out to close down space.

The same goes for when Maradona, or one of the other midfielders has the ball and forces the CB's to take a step up - Klinsmann is brilliant at using that space for a run and a goal.

 

[Annahnomoss]

A very, very underrated quality in drafts, it seems. Having a grade A cnut on your side is always an advantage in a game of football.

Usually it is very overrated actually here. This is the first draft where I have seen it be very underrated for some reason, but maybe it is because Effenberg-Keane was seen in the same team as was Keane-Vieira. It is possible that people dislike having more than one per team, something I can see the reason behind.

I think Effenberg was very highly rated when he was played on his own last round without another scary fellah and Matthaus is the biggest scan-vote winning CM in these drafts.

 

[crappycraperson]

Agree that Matthaus for his athleticism, defensive nous and all-round cuntishness would be a better fit for a man-to-man job here.

Let's be honest here Gio. If we put Lothar on Maradona, Annah and other Maradona fanbois would be banging on about 86 final non stop.

Anyway hats off to the voters so far, they are allowing the discussion to develop rather than voting in a flash.

Proper match even if we lose

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah it is a very entertaining match, I believe you guys are clear winners in the end but it is being fun so far. No childish/aggressive discussions trying to claim that players are straight bad and so forth, more tactical discussions and considering the team as a whole.

Sometimes it turns in to "who is more childish" by just spamming the thread with things that are negative to the opponent. It feels like a dynamic game this.

 

[Moby]

A very, very underrated quality in drafts, it seems. Having a grade A cnut on your side is always an advantage in a game of football.

It takes us into the often referenced but never addressed facet of these hypothetical matches, possibly as it is impossible to consider it in a timeline as big as this, or worse, an all time draft. The cuntishness depends on what era of football you consider the game being played in. Right now, it will be punished a lot more than it would have been a decade ago let alone 3 or 4 decades ago, and there have been players in question whose involvement heavily depends on what you think is acceptable. For example Gentile is considered to be one of the greatest man markers. We all know what he did to Diego, to Zico. He pulled Zico's shirt so hard it was in two pieces, but no one cared. Put him in the current environment, chances are he won't be as effective, as he would obviously be instructed to go easy than he likes to which would reduce his impact.

Just saying it is an interesting perspective, which is not practical to implement in a game which includes players from 40 years or more apart. And it can be applied to anyone. For example Diego controlled the ball on shittiest of pitches with uneven terrain and what not, so imagine what someone like he would have done in today's smooth pitches, or maybe it wouldn't have made much of a difference as he already took that aspect to a maximum. The mind wonders.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Usually it is very overrated actually here. This is the first draft where I have seen it be very underrated for some reason, but maybe it is because Effenberg-Keane was seen in the same team as was Keane-Vieira. It is possible that people dislike having more than one per team, something I can see the reason behind.

I think Effenberg was very highly rated when he was played on his own last round without another scary fellah and Matthaus is the biggest scan-vote winning CM in these drafts.

Maybe that's true. But I don't think Effenberg was rated for his cuntishness as such - which is my point. The intangible qualities - such as mentality, cuntishness, the ability to cheat with impunity - aren't what people usually emphasize. But anyone who has ever played - or watched - a game of football knows they're often what tips the scales.

 

[Moby]

Maybe that's true. But I don't think Effenberg was rated for his cuntishness as such - which is my point. The intangible qualities - such as mentality, cuntishness, the ability to cheat with impunity - aren't what people usually emphasize. But anyone who has ever played - or watched - a game of football knows they're often what tips the scales.

Aye, it's vital in a game. Loved Sammer for that as well, though possibly Matthaus was a bigger cnut, and Sammer possibly a better leader.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It takes us into the often referenced but never addressed facet of these hypothetical matches, possibly as it is impossible to consider it in a timeline as big as this, or worse, an all time draft. The cuntishness depends on what era of football you consider the game being played in. Right now, it will be punished a lot more than it would have been a decade ago let alone 3 or 4 decades ago, and there have been players in question whose involvement heavily depends on what you think is acceptable. For example Gentile is considered to be one of the greatest man markers. We all know what he did to Diego, to Zico. He pulled Zico's shirt so hard it was in two pieces, but no one cared. Put him in the current environment, chances are he won't be as effective, as he would obviously be instructed to go easy than he likes to which would reduce his impact.

Just saying it is an interesting perspective, which is not practical to implement in a game which includes players from 40 years or more apart. And it can be applied to anyone. For example Diego controlled the ball on shittiest of pitches with uneven terrain and what not, so imagine what someone like he would have done in today's smooth pitches, or maybe it wouldn't have made much of a difference as he already took that aspect to a maximum. The mind wonders.

Yes - good points. Sheer brutality wouldn't be a plus if, say, Gentile came up against Messi. But if we're being hypothetical here - which we must be - we can surmise that the abstract quality of being a cynical bastard would still be an asset - it would take different forms in 1982 and in 2014, but it would still be a factor.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Maybe that's true. But I don't think Effenberg was rated for his cuntishness as such - which is my point. The intangible qualities - such as mentality, cuntishness, the ability to cheat with impunity - aren't what people usually emphasize. But anyone who has ever played - or watched - a game of football knows they're often what tips the scales.

Aye, it's vital in a game. Loved Sammer for that as well, though possibly Matthaus was a bigger cnut, and Sammer possibly a better leader.

I agree that it is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't consider a team without a cnut complete to be fair which is why I have Sammer and Ferrara at the back, who may not be absolute cnuts but definitely inspiring leaders and hard as nails.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think I have my theme for the next draft: gather as many vile, cnutish bastards as possible - and gamble on not having half the side sent off before half time.

 

[crappycraperson]

Since Viva is off I will reply to some points -

Wing backs vs Sagnol/Lizarazu - Yes, both Boniek and Conti won't track their wing backs. That is a risk we have CHOSEN to take for tactical advantage. We are backing Sagnol and Lizrazru to deal with Zanetti/Bhehme 1 v 1. Will they one an odd occassion skin past them, perhaps.. but that always happen in football matches, does not necessarily mean they will end up in a scoring position or create a goal scoring chance at that every moment. Klinsmann would still be well marshalled, Lothar and Redondo would still be guarding the CMs.
What is more likely is that at some point the attack will break down and the ball is played to someone like Boniek who has stayed upfront with no one on the wing, gets a free run which forces Sammer wide. Now he either tries to skin him or he crosses, passes it to Van Basten. VB would still have 2 CBs so he may or may not score
Our whole argument is that Boniek/Conti are more likely to tackle Sammer in an unfamiliar position out wide to create something for Van Basten or score themselves than Zanetti/Brehme doing the same on the other end.

Maradona issue.... again: The whole Redondo-Lothar marking thing is under consideration right now, we will take some feedback on board. But regardless peak Diego will affect the game but peak Diego does not win you every game otherwise well.. he would have won pretty much every game during his peak. I still don't agree that Redondo has no hope stopping him. Redondo won't be as hapless as English defenders if Diego tried to skip past him, and he is undoubtedly the best to close down any space for Diego to exploit. The point is though Annah himself have focussed on the roles of other MFs.

Annah says he plans to play CA tactic. I fail to see how. Wingbacks trying to go past full backs is not a CA tactic. Maradona trying to find a way open in tight central area is not CA either. What is he doing with 4 CMs on the park if he wants to just CA?

 

[crappycraperson]

As soon as congratulated everyone, Annah gets a spurt of votes

 

[Annahnomoss]

An outstanding fact is that from Maradona came to Napoli in 1984 until 1990 they won 6 drew 3 and lost 3 to the infamous Milan side. Has nothing to do with anything really as we all know Maradona had no issues against ridiculously good defenses but it is a very impressive record.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think I have my theme for the next draft: gather as many vile, cnutish bastards as possible - and gamble on not having half the side sent off before half time.

I've been trying this for ages I never make it. They are very popular, I'd love to see you finish a side like that.

----Matthaus
Rijkaard--Keane

 

[crappycraperson]

@Aldo Can you add this below change in tactics in OP. Thanks

Tactical Change : Redondo and Lothar have a quick re-group with their managers. Redondo will now be sitting in front of the defense, dictating the game from the deep and closing out any space for any CMs running at the central defense.
Lothar will be running at Diego, not man marking but making sure that when he enters our half -
- he is not free to dribble past the whole team or play a through pass to his front man
- If Diego plans to drop into his own half and play long passes from there, he if free to do so. Lothar won't be chasing him to his own half.
Key point - Even when Maradona does tackle past Lothar he would still have the obstacle of Redondo to overcome either by dribbling past him or slipping a pass around him. He may be a footballing god, but tackling the combo of Lothar + Redondo is as good as it gets

 

[Moby]

I've been trying this for ages I never make it. They are very popular, I'd love to see you finish a side like that.

----Matthaus
Rijkaard--Keane

I raise that with a CB pair of Passarella and Gentile. RIP strikers.

 

[crappycraperson]

Anto.. will be here soon to further muddy the waters... ugh oh.. I am off now for some time.. back in 4 hours may be!

 

[crappycraperson]

Also add this to OP:

Maradona injured

 

[Balu]

An outstanding fact is that from Maradona came to Napoli in 1984 until 1990 they won 6 drew 3 and lost 3 to the infamous Milan side. Has nothing to do with anything really as we all know Maradona had no issues against ridiculously good defenses but it is a very impressive record.

That infamous Milan side was pretty shit until Sacchi started to turn it around. They went down into Serie B twice in the early 80's and were a midtable team until '87 if I remember correctly. Inter even loaned them players because they didn't have any money to buy players. Berlusconi bought the club in '86 and changed their fate.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Since Viva is off I will reply to some points -

Wing backs vs Sagnol/Lizarazu - Yes, both Boniek and Conti won't track their wing backs. That is a risk we have CHOSEN to take for tactical advantage. We are backing Sagnol and Lizrazru to deal with Zanetti/Bhehme 1 v 1. Will they one an odd occassion skin past them, perhaps.. but that always happen in football matches, does not necessarily mean they will end up in a scoring position or create a goal scoring chance at that every moment. Klinsmann would still be well marshalled, Lothar and Redondo would still be guarding the CMs.
What is more likely is that at some point the attack will break down and the ball is played to someone like Boniek who has stayed upfront with no one on the wing, gets a free run which forces Sammer wide. Now he either tries to skin him or he crosses, passes it to Van Basten. VB would still have 2 CBs so he may or may not score
Our whole argument is that Boniek/Conti are more likely to tackle Sammer in an unfamiliar position out wide to create something for Van Basten or score themselves than Zanetti/Brehme doing the same on the other end.

Annah says he plans to play CA tactic. I fail to see how. Wingbacks trying to go past full backs is not a CA tactic. Maradona trying to find a way open in tight central area is not CA either. What is he doing with 4 CMs on the park if he wants to just CA?

Again I want to point out that I am using CM's who are comfortable moving out wide - that is where my wide threat comes from. Zanetti or Brehme won't alone be asked to skin past your full-backs, the flexibility and dynamic of Enrique moving out left and doubling up is where the threat comes from. A threat you can only handle by having your wingers doing a deep defensive work which you have told them not to.

The same goes on the other side where Mendieta can explode out right and suddenly link up with Brehme, this is all not taking in to account that Maradona will be around the pitch - constantly near the ball acting as my playmaker and orchestrator here. As soon as Brehme has the ball Maradona will be there, and I rate him to find Brehme and Mendieta on their runs with Klinsmann making runs inside the box.

You have too few players committed defensively, with 4 players not involved in the deeper part of defending in Boniek, Conti, Riquelme and van Basten.

My team is a counter-attacking set-up like Argentinas was. Maradona doesn't counter-attack with blistering pace, it is with incredible dribbling, holding the ball and then playmaking in to the space of the defender he just got to try and take the ball from him. This requires box to box runs, which will be provided by the two best wing-backs possible for the role in Zanetti and Brehme as well as Mendieta and Enrique who are flexible and can bomb out wide and let Zanetti or Brehme cover centrally if there is space to receive a pass out tehre.

My team has an incredible defensive triangle centrally with a proven Deschamps-Ferrara and Vierchowod partnership, together with Sammer sweeping up anything that gets past and intercepting passes. All of Vierchowod, Sammer, Zanetti and Brehme has the passing range to instantly start a counter as they intercept or get the ball. That is why my team is perfect for a counter-attacking set-up through Maradona.

A nearly impenetrable defense with the ability to instantly start the counter the other way. I always leave Vierchowod-Sammer-Ferrara back in the defense, even if I am attacking - which means you can never get a counter attack against anything less than three world-class defenders. More realistically I will of course have Deschamps back before or at the same time as Riquelme and if there are any wing-backs who could do a job offensively and defensively all day long it is Brehme and Zanetti.

Stamina, pace, acceleration and technical top class ability allows them to participate in both sides of the game. Brehme and Zanetti won't be found by the corner flag at the same time at any period of this game so more often than not at least one of them will be back in the second wave together with Deschamps.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That infamous Milan side was pretty shit until Sacchi started to turn it around. They went down into Serie B twice in the early 80's and were a midtable team until '87 if I remember correctly. Inter even loaned them players because they didn't have any money to buy players. Berlusconi bought the club in '86 and changed their fate.

4 wins to Napoli and 2 for Milan from Berlusconi took over, cheers for the input! Of course one can't expect Milan to turn it around in a second. 87 they were the best team in Italy. CL winners 88.

So still a pretty impressive record from small Napoli.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Also add this to OP:

Maradona injured

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Spoiler: ...

 

[antohan]

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

That, in a nutshell. Deschamps has him in his pocket as well, Redondo has been lost to a futile man-maarking mission... I would sooner have Matthäus doing that and leaving Redondo to dictate, not the other way around.

Annah has basically put Argentina '86 back together again, all revolving around Diego, but with better players in every role. Ominous. The only one who would get in here would be Ruggeri ahead of Ferrara.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Ramos, Pepe, De Jong and Van Bommel against the likes of Messi, Laudrup and Zidane. I smell a couple of red cards before the match starts, or a forfeit from the opponents players who don't want to get injured.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That, in a nutshell. Deschamps has him in his pocket as well, Redondo has been lost to a futile man-maarking mission... I would sooner have Matthäus doing that and leaving Redondo to dictate, not the other way around.

Annah has basically put Argentina '86 back together again, all revolving around Diego, but with better players in every role. Ominous. The only one who would get in here would be Ruggeri ahead of Ferrara.

Too annoying that Ruggeri was the last TP rated CB on the list, would have loved to have him.

 

[antohan]

There's no way Batigol would have gotten more credit, you can bet on that. As for Romario and Ronaldo, well they offer something different and it depends what qualities people rate more. I think both strikers have been overlooked a tad here. If anything I'd say Klinsmann would be more than a handful for the two CBs. I don't completely agree with both managers saying those two CBs are perfect to handle Klinsi. Sure they would be a good pair to handle his physicality but he was much more than just a big lump up front. His bursts of acceleration in short spaces were absolutely explosive and combined that with his constant movement, he'd be a right nuisance. That is where I think he can trouble those two CBs specially with Diego pulling the strings. And it didn't matter which part of his body struck the ball, it went in like a fecking rocket. Which points to a great shooting technique.

Sorry if it came as I was advertising him, just found the comments on him slightly strange.

Indeed. I can't see how Adams and Ayala can handle him TBH. He is far more comfortable than van Basten against Annah's trio.

 

[Moby]

That, in a nutshell. Deschamps has him in his pocket as well, Redondo has been lost to a futile man-maarking mission... I would sooner have Matthäus doing that and leaving Redondo to dictate, not the other way around.

Annah has basically put Argentina '86 back together again, all revolving around Diego, but with better players in every role. Ominous. The only one who would get in here would be Ruggeri ahead of Ferrara.

Well I don't think there's much between those two, or maybe I rate Ferrara higher than others. And he himself played at Diego's Napoli, and was quite good for them so it's a plausible replacement.

 

[MJJ]

Voted for annah, think VC messed up their tactics quite badly which would allow annah to take an early lead and he will have no problem holding on to it.

 

[Moby]

Remember watching a goal where Diego gave a cross with his head () and Ferrara scored. Ferrara was complaining in an interview how no one remembers that he scored because of that insane assist.

Edit : found it.

Spoiler