So, who would be tracking Rui Costa?
The Reality Draft - SF: antohan vs The Red Viper
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Well there's a decent gap between Scirea and Ferrara and similarly between Amoros and Sagnol. The others are much of a muchness. He's also got the advantage of Marcel Desailly sitting in front of the back four.
Why won't he get the ball?
Bastian isn't a Scholes but he is a very good passer of the ball. He can find Rui Costa. Also, there is Scirea, one of the finest sweepers of all time. Last game I faced against Jayvin, I remember many inluding Antohan mention how Blanc's ability on the ball would hold the key. Scirea was a better sweeper than him. He would impact the game hugely on the ball here. And, There is always the option of Rui Costa dropping back to get hold of the ball which, he generally used to do a lot as well. He wasn't your orthodox number ten and not like Mata or Ozil who plays only in between the lines.
He scored that brilliant goal in 99/00, 2 goals against us in 01/02 and another 2 in 02/03, 1 in 03/04 (and hat-trick against Liverpool).
If you are going about him being not a big-game player, you should've showed his final records - no goals in
- 2001 FA Cup Final
- 2002 FA Cup Final
- 2003 FA Cup Final
- 2000 UEFA Cup Final
- 2006 Champions League Final
- 2009 Champions League Final
- 2000 European Championships Final
- 2006 World Cup Final
Maybe he wasn't a big-game player like Drogba, but I still won't write him off, he won't disappear like Ozil.
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If Baggio gets the ball HE will cause serious issues. As will his linup with Nedved and Raúl, all the while with Boniek dragging defenders left, right and centre.
I repeat, the entire premise of TRVs side is one-dimensional pace, pace, pace, which requires space, space, space, which I'm not planning to offer much at all.
Also, how would Raul - Baggio complement each other? Raul's best game were while playing alongside a targetman in Morientes who could create space for him. Same with Baggio whose best games with Italy NT were with Massaro/Schillaci at Italian NT or Ravanelli/Vialli with Juve or Toni at Brescia. I specifically remember how disjointed Italy's attack was in the 1994 World Cup when Sacchi decided to start with both Signori - Baggio and they scraped through the Round of 16 on Goals Forwarded and they had scored two goals in the Group Stages. Its only when Signori was dropped, we got to see the best of Baggio. And, Signori was a similar player to Raul in some ways.
All three of Rui Costa, Henry and Robben were brilliant in tight spaces as well. They could hurt you from counters as much as they could hurt you in the tight areas with their brilliant close control.
I have no problem repeating it, Henry wasn't a big game player. There you go. In the meantime, Boniek ahd a habit of scoring and earning penalties against on eof the best sides of his era: Liverpool.So, just because he didn't have a great record against United, it means he wasn't a big game player? I understand the need to sell your players and underrate opposition's but that was hilarious.
And now that you have started it, let me remind you how notoriously inconsistent Boniek was. You make him sound like he was Best or Garrincha or Jairzinho. There is a reason he was called Bello di Notte. He was a very good player for Juve in Europe during the night games but his performances in Serie-A during the day games were far from being impressive.
And having a go at Boniek on consistency is not on when you have Robben, himself a rather inconsistent player. Do you know why he was the Bello di Notte? Do you know how differently Juve setup in Serie A and in Europe? Probably not, but go ahead and call it inconsistency.
Either of them, it's no big deal, he isn't Roberto Baggio requiring a permanent and futile man-marking detail.
Henry, Robben and Eto'o weren't just limited speed merchants. They have played against deep, compact sides whilst being man-marked and have succeeded before. Playing deep and compact is the way to negate them to a certain extent as playing a high line will be suicidal and will just play to their strengths. However, that doesn't really mean they will just be taken out of the game.
The more appropriate comparison is Thiago and Scirea, who is a big name sure, but in a back four with two attacking fullbacks I'd rather Thiago. Scirea would be more at home in my setup, he would really be in his element there.
I'm not goign to go out research Henry's goal history. Everyone knew he was a great flat-track bully and wouldn't be half as good against big teams, bar the occasional game where, typically, ARSENAL did well, not just him. When in trouble he wasn't the guy you would look for, let's put it that way.
You mean the penalty that was outside of the box?
Ohh, I know why he was called Bello Di Notte. I am not denying he was a good. He was a very good player and I was merely suggesting that we can find flaws and weaknesses in every player if we go that path like you did with Henry.
Of course it doesn't take them out of the game, but TRV seems to have planned for a very different game whereby they would be left alone in acres of space all game long. They are hitting a brickwall here, and I have at least as much going forward, being able to both exploit space and create it.
Yeah, that one, and the one at Heysel too.You mean the penalty that was outside of the box?
Not being a big game player is a significant flaw in my eyes when there isn't a real leader/talisman the team can refer to. Who is yours? Not Henry, not Robben (in fairness, he showed that for this young Netherlands side, but has primarily been an individualist), not Eto'o...
When the shit hits the fan and you need the real men to rise Baggio, Nedved, Boniek and Raúl are in a different planet to your shiny names.
Gotta get back to work here. Will chip in later.
TRV you are doing a great job arguing, top notch way to go at it.
On the game, this match up really bugs me because both teams would love this back and forth game to bits. For maybe the first time neither team has a tactical advantage, the individual skill is also similar with TRV having a better defense and in my eyes a clearer goal threat, but Antohans midfield four is just drool worthy. An improvement on the '99 United midfield four which says a whole lot about how spectacular the quality there is.
Will have a look later but for now I feel like Antohan hasn't mentioned much about his team, just pointed out the negatives of TRV's team instead.
On the game, this match up really bugs me because both teams would love this back and forth game to bits. For maybe the first time neither team has a tactical advantage, the individual skill is also similar with TRV having a better defense and in my eyes a clearer goal threat, but Antohans midfield four is just drool worthy. An improvement on the '99 United midfield four which says a whole lot about how spectacular the quality there is.
Will have a look later but for now I feel like Antohan hasn't mentioned much about his team, just pointed out the negatives of TRV's team instead.
I came across his record against us not so long ago, so remembered it - and, subjectively, I always feared when he played against us. Though I can agree with your latest description.
I think Anto will dominate possession, but with Desailly there TRV is quite shored up on defences. Still with that talent there, they will definitely score.
TRV has a devastating attack upfront. If Schweini or Scirea gets the ball out quickly, then on the counter, TRV will definitely score.
+ If TRV scores first, he can shut the game out with Desailly and Schweini reined in front of the defence. He'll probably drop Henry for Proscinecki to beef up the midfield and hold on for a win.
+ It anto scores first, I only see him continue to play open. He can dominate possession, but I really don't see him stopping the counter.
TRV has a devastating attack upfront. If Schweini or Scirea gets the ball out quickly, then on the counter, TRV will definitely score.
+ If TRV scores first, he can shut the game out with Desailly and Schweini reined in front of the defence. He'll probably drop Henry for Proscinecki to beef up the midfield and hold on for a win.
+ It anto scores first, I only see him continue to play open. He can dominate possession, but I really don't see him stopping the counter.
Well, I wrote at length in the OP about how I would play and don't think I mentioned a single one of his players in it.
It was only the focus on Abidal as an alleged weakness that turned it in that direction when 1. Sergi is facing the greater threat, 2. Sergi is an attacking fullback so I suppose he will attack and will get caught out regularly so Stam is permanently covering him (unless Schweini is runnign the entire midfield, dealing with Effenberg and Neeskens and also covering at LB). That's not the case with Abidal who is purely defending.
The theme throughout seems to be my defence being weak, which is complete nonsense, you would give your left bollock to have them all playing for us. Even you now seem to agree, despite being otherwise critical of Scirea in a four without a defensive fullback in it (which Sagnol clearly isn't, let alone one that can tuck in as CB).
When putting the entire team together, back to front, I didn't focus on names but functionality and how the different players fit together. So it follows I have to question that criticism of my defence because AFAIC there's one defence that works together, is coherent and is balanced across the board, and one isn't as carefully put together. It's a leftover leftback, a great CB, a sweeper that got chucked in there because he has a pretty name and can play ball better than Vidic and a rightback who isn't the sort of fullback you would play next to him in a four. One defence makes sense, the other doesn't, guess which one will perform?
I'm not saying they are the best defenders that walked the face of the earth, just that as a unit they will be rock solid, they will gel, and perform. That's is all I need them to do because in front of them they have, as you realise, a phenomenal midfield that will both protect them and transition seamlessly to attack with Nedved left-to-centre, Baggio centrally, Amoros down the right flank and Boniek across the frontline dragging defenders, wreaking havoc and creating space for others.
Sort of like this:
I'm NOT playing open. Dominating and controlling a game does not mean you expose yourself. Christ, why would players have the intelligence to control a game and turn into spackers when it comes to keeping things tight?
If I score first, he never in a million years gets back in the game, I sit back soak and counter and probably score another goal or two on the counter (does no one see Boniek, Baggio and Raúl on the counter being at least as deadly? you would think I have QPRs forwards...). If he scores first I keep at it, but I have the BENCH STRENGTH to be more aggressive if needing a goal.
TRV doesn't have that, he has no Plan B if Plan A doesn't work, which is why I chose not to leave myself exposed to his plan A working, I said it in the bloody OP, why do I even write them?
No one is going to dominate possession
It's 8-6 in favor of antohan but will be 10-6 if @antohan decides to vote for himself
Manager votes don't count, never have.
How would you make Raul - Baggio work, @antohan ?
Baggio wasn't at his best when Sacchi put him alongside Signori, a player similar to Raul in terms of style and movement. Raul likes to play that role of a "free striker" where he has the freedom to roam. I can't remember a time when Raul ever played as a main striker. He always had another target-man/main striker alongside him and used to play off him. Be it Morientes in his early days or RvN/Higuain later. One of the reasons Raul didn't complement that well with Ronaldo is because Ronaldo himself liked to drop deep and get involved in the build-up play etc.
I accept that my attack is narrow but its not like Nedved and Boniek are your orthodox wingers as well. Both loved to cut inside and play in a narrow role. Boniek played the role of a seconda punta in that Juve side under Trapattoni. Juve under Lippi/Capello played a really narrow team as well. Nedved's best season at Juventus came when he played as a left sided attacking midfielder.
So, effectively you have four players who more of less like to play around the same area of the pitch.
Baggio wasn't at his best when Sacchi put him alongside Signori, a player similar to Raul in terms of style and movement. Raul likes to play that role of a "free striker" where he has the freedom to roam. I can't remember a time when Raul ever played as a main striker. He always had another target-man/main striker alongside him and used to play off him. Be it Morientes in his early days or RvN/Higuain later. One of the reasons Raul didn't complement that well with Ronaldo is because Ronaldo himself liked to drop deep and get involved in the build-up play etc.
I accept that my attack is narrow but its not like Nedved and Boniek are your orthodox wingers as well. Both loved to cut inside and play in a narrow role. Boniek played the role of a seconda punta in that Juve side under Trapattoni. Juve under Lippi/Capello played a really narrow team as well. Nedved's best season at Juventus came when he played as a left sided attacking midfielder.
So, effectively you have four players who more of less like to play around the same area of the pitch.
You really think that either of them, especially Effenberg can restrict Rui Costa? Effenberg was a hard tackler but he was far from being someone who was disciplined enough to track a player of Rui Costa's ability throughout the game.
I find it crazy how easy you are making it sound that Rui Costa won't be an issue when he was arguably the best player in the late nineties and early noughties when it came to through-balls from those areas of the pitch. With the pace and movement of Henry, Eto'o and Robben, he has three palyers who can get at the end of his through-balls.
More "at his best" yadda, yadda. I expected this "Raúl needs Morientes", which is why I posted a gif from back in the days when Real Madrid won the CL and the Intercontinental Cup with no actual striker in the mould of any of those you mention. His partner was Pedrag Mijatovic, more of a second striker himself.
Tell me where your big burly centre-forward was here:
As I stated in the pointlessly written OP, Boniek has a free role, precisely to be able to do what he did best which is show up wherever he could unsettle the defence the most. All too often, that will be in between Stam and Sergi, providing the pivot for Amoros' overlapping run and cross. That's clear defence-stretching width for you.
You are still talking about tracking Rui Costa and through balls to Henry, Eto-o and Robben as if you were operating in acres of space. You are not, read the tactics. I know you didn't plan for this and sorely want me to be all gung ho and exposed at the back, that's what you need for your plan to work. I'm sorry I'm not playing along with it.
I've lost my mojo as far as write-ups are concerned, was always criticised for going down hard on the oppo so haven't done it. Guess what? I'm supposedly defending with three because all my players are far up the pitch and protecting the defence like complete tits. Where did I say i'd do that? Nowhere, it was just TRV deciding Amoros would never be defending.
I wonder how it works with Sergi and Sagnol, are they always defending? He has two attacking footballs to my one yet it is my defence that is left exposed?
Where is TRVs backline? Supposedly deep as he is meant to be playing on the counter? What when I'm not? I can run past his midfield like it isn't even there, same down the flanks. I'm the one going forward in acres of space and largely unchallenged, not the other way around.
It's basic maths, he has four players committed upfront and I have two, how the hell is he "counterattacking" me?
He relies on me being stupid and giving him the space he needs. I just rely on quick transitions to attack, without being a complete mentalist in carrying four passengers as far as defensive work is concerned.
I wonder how it works with Sergi and Sagnol, are they always defending? He has two attacking footballs to my one yet it is my defence that is left exposed?
Where is TRVs backline? Supposedly deep as he is meant to be playing on the counter? What when I'm not? I can run past his midfield like it isn't even there, same down the flanks. I'm the one going forward in acres of space and largely unchallenged, not the other way around.
It's basic maths, he has four players committed upfront and I have two, how the hell is he "counterattacking" me?
He relies on me being stupid and giving him the space he needs. I just rely on quick transitions to attack, without being a complete mentalist in carrying four passengers as far as defensive work is concerned.
I'm surprised TRV's not digging up Anto's quotes about all these players he had in drafts in the past. 
So, at this point, let's imagine the actual game.
TRV started the game assuming he would be countering anotheer team which has actually stayed tight and compact and the back and is calmly carving him open out of sheer midfield superiority.
The scoreline is reflecting that.
What can he do now? Let's look at his bench:
TRV started the game assuming he would be countering anotheer team which has actually stayed tight and compact and the back and is calmly carving him open out of sheer midfield superiority.
The scoreline is reflecting that.
What can he do now? Let's look at his bench:
- Rafael: downgrade
- Vidic: could be used for a back five, won't turn the tide though
- Proscinecki: another passenger, no real use
- Dunga: could be used to help out Schweini who is completely stranded given Desailly has a personal detail on Baggio. Doesn't help change the course of the game though.
He has Dunga?
Sagnol, Schweini, Robben and Henry.I'm surprised TRV's not digging up Anto's quotes about all these players he had in drafts in the past.
I haven't been negative about Sagnol AFAIC, just said he isn't the sort of fullback Scirea used to have playing alongside him.
Schweini I love to bits and have stood up for him through thick and thin, but never got him into the thin terrain of having to battle BOTH Effenberg and Neeskens (let's face it, Rui Costa will do feck all defensively).
Robben and Henry I've typically used in 4-3-3 setups, but usually with a stronger midfield that could run the game rather than just hoof balls up the pitch. I never, ever, built a team around them or relied on them as the fulcrum of the team, just had them as role-appropriate bit-part players.
Exactly. The logical thing would have been to start him helping Schweini exert his influence in midfield, there was always time to add another frontman.
People really have to keep those things in mind, at least I do.
Yes, I could start Vieri as a bulldozing forward, but Raúl scored as many goals in the CL as Henry and Robben JOINTLY, and he will be more effective at pressing Scirea, so I start him.
I could also start a more attacking lineup, but it's a risky approach against a side well set up for the counter.
Instead I choose to play the way i can control the flow of the game and keep aces up my sleeve in case it's not going my way.
TRV has chosen to throw the kitchen sink first, but a kitchen sink that relies on counter-attacking and the space it operates in. How exactly can a team getting the kitchen sink thrown at it be counter-attacked?
I'm in control and have an extra gear, he doesn't have either. Which team is likely to win in that scenario?
Firstly, I mentioned that because of you lack of DM/Holding Midfielder. Secondly, you yourself mentioned you won't be playing a highbackline which means that inorder to negate that space between the defence and midfield, both Effenberg and Neeskens have to play deeper than they normally did. So, you can't have it both ways.
More "at his best" yadda, yadda. I expected this "Raúl needs Morientes", which is why I posted a gif from back in the days when Real Madrid won the CL and the Intercontinental Cup with no actual striker in the mould of any of those you mention. His partner was Pedrag Mijatovic, more of a second striker himself.
Tell me where your big burly centre-forward was here:
As I stated in the pointlessly written OP, Boniek has a free role, precisely to be able to do what he did best which is show up wherever he could unsettle the defence the most. All too often, that will be in between Stam and Sergi, providing the pivot for Amoros' overlapping run and cross. That's clear defence-stretching width for you.
Seems like you conveniently forgot Suker.
When Raul started his Madrid career with the main team, he played alongside Zamorano for a couple of seasons. Then Madrid sold Zamorano and bought Suker and Pedja to play alongside Raul. Yes, there were few games when they started with a front two of Pedja and Raul but majority of the time they had Suker and later Morientes. It was only for a brief period in 1998, they had Pedja and Raul start together otherwise they mostly played with a main striker in Suker/Morientes.
As for Boniek, you are saying, you have given him a free role where he will do what he does best. That means he will be playing as a seconda punta for you? Because that was his best role. As for Amoros overlapping, I have Bastian to cover for him. And, that also means that should I win the ball back, you would basically have three defenders to defend against Henry, Eto'o and Robben in one on one situations.
I don't need to because even if I do, he would say he was simply selling his player and it would be right as well.I'm surprised TRV's not digging up Anto's quotes about all these players he had in drafts in the past.
I don't need a holding midfielder because I have four midfielders who work their arse off all game, as opposed to your two (one of those being permanently on Baggio's case wherever he is).
Seriously, read the bloody tactics writeup!
Which part of that suggests I'm playing in a way that leaves me exposed to counter-attacks?TACTICS
While in the previous game I was happy fielding an exceptionally high line, it's clearly too risky here so we will build from a strong base and rely on quick transitions (ergo, I'm not overcommitting forward) with exceptional attacking players.
There's plenty of room for a "throw-the-kitchen-sink" Plan B here, I just don't think it's necessary but it's worth bearing that in mind. I can't see any credible kitchen sink that can be thrown at me if needs be, not one that can't be dealt with competently.
IN POSSESSION
It's pretty self-explanatory as all players are in roles they are well suited to and where they thrived. Baggio is loving this '94-style. Nedved will roam in that left-to-centre area, playmaking and going deep down the flank occasionally, but can cross and play beautiful balls from anywhere. By assigning Amoros to the right flank, Boniek is given the freedom that best utilises him terrorising defences on the break and probing across the backline.
Manuel will be the only defender pushing forward and will cross from deep or make the overlapping runs he was best known for. While Amoros is away, the others form a back three effortlessly. Both Effenberg and Neeskens will have more freedom too, not to go all gung-ho but to get really involved in support and making the occasional surging runs. They are both intelligent, strong-willed and dogged midfielders that will dominate the centre of the pitch.
.......Raúl instead of Vieri, etc.
WHEN POSSESSION IS LOST
As mentioned, I won't be playing a high line by default as before, but the defence will still aim to keep no sizable gaps between the lines. It's also a defence that is very well protected, rarely have we seen a midfield so well suited to protect their back four: Nedved-Effenberg-Neeskens-BoniekAll four midfielders are excellent at their pressing game and will be onto TRVs men like a rash.
WHY I WILL WIN
Quality across the board, a side that works seamlessly together and GOAT-level excellence in critical roles. The game can be controlled and gradually but surely taken down the path of victory. And if luck or other "outside influences" require that we go up a gear, we can: just look at our bench and his!
I'm pretty patient and relaxed about things because I know I have 9 outfield players working their arses off when you have the ball, Raúl at the source from deep (Scirea) and then two banks of players giving you no space or tiem on the ball, yet able to execute a much better and quicker transition than you can muster.
@antohan your writeup has possession/off possession, but I think it fails to properly consider how your team will react to a counter (oh, the irony of quick transitions). Saying Neeskens/Effenberg will always be there on either side is just a stretch imo. From how I see it, with Amoros having the going forward licence, it will be Neeskens who will be hovering around middle looking for opportunities to go forward and Effenberg in a relatively more holding role operating between defence to midfield. As the game changes, the roles may get interchanged, but for a majority play, I see Neeskens operating ahead of Effenberg.
With Desailly keeping a eye on Baggio, it will be hard for Schweini to control the middle all by himself and the role of Rui Costa is not helping things in the middle for TRV.
Have gone for anto here.
With Desailly keeping a eye on Baggio, it will be hard for Schweini to control the middle all by himself and the role of Rui Costa is not helping things in the middle for TRV.
Have gone for anto here.
Gentile at times took the role Desailly has in this game, as a man marker(Against Argentina 82 for example) - Scirea was then left with Cabrini and Collovati - and Cabrini was an offensive full-back. I am not sure if TRV knew it or not, but it looks like a functional set up considering Stam-Scirea will be up primarily against Raul. With the support of two full-backs.
Doesn't mean I think he wins the match because of that or that everybody are perfect for their roles there, it just means that it's not tactically woeful.